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Cell benchmared (The PS3 Cell)

gofreak said:
What about Cell+RSX :p

Sorry, I'm still just contemplating Cg shader compilation across both chips ;)
You know, I thought this was a forgone conclusion. I think it was either Vince or Jaws that mentioned the possibility of Cg shaders on Cell, and it just made a whole lot of sense. That and I swear Jen Hsun (the NVidia guy) said something about Cg shaders shortly after E3. I thought it was a reason for Sony making special note of the SPEs' ability to run C code.

I just figured that this would be great for getting Cell involved in pre-/post-processing. Especially since Cell and RSX are supposed to be sharing data. Why not get Cell involved in the graphics pipeline? Isn't this some of the software aspects Sony and NVidia were discussing prior to engaging the RSX project. PEACE.
 
Pimpwerx said:
You know, I thought this was a forgone conclusion. I think it was either Vince or Jaws that mentioned the possibility of Cg shaders on Cell, and it just made a whole lot of sense. That and I swear Jen Hsun (the NVidia guy) said something about Cg shaders shortly after E3. I thought it was a reason for Sony making special note of the SPEs' ability to run C code.

There's been nothing official. Although the Alex Chow comment I linked to earlier in the thread seems to be an indicator alright. Kutaragi's comment about synchronised rounding/cutoff modes with RSX is a little suspect from this point of view too.
 
gofreak said:
What if someone wants to watch a HD movie on a second screen while you're playing a game? Or your PSP-owning brother or friend comes a long and wants to stream a video to his PSP from the PS3 HD (which your SPU would format appropriately for the PSP etc.). It could provide other services for games too, like maybe eyetoy processing etc.

then they can fuck off and buy their own PS3. If I'm playing games, I'm playing games. No 2nd screen HD movie bullshit.



Do you think its a relatively safe assumption that the RSX won't have any problems having vertices delivered to it, and the PS3 is most likely to be a fillrate bound device? If so, that could be a good thing as devs will be almost forced to do more cool stuff with the 'spare' SPUs
 
mrklaw said:
then they can fuck off and buy their own PS3. If I'm playing games, I'm playing games. No 2nd screen HD movie bullshit.



Do you think its a relatively safe assumption that the RSX won't have any problems having vertices delivered to it, and the PS3 is most likely to be a fillrate bound device? If so, that could be a good thing as devs will be almost forced to do more cool stuff with the 'spare' SPUs


I believe that gamasutra Medal of Honor PS3 article mentioned something along these lines.....that the game is fillrate bound when only using 4 SPUs in the game!!!!
 
Kleegamefan said:
I believe that gamasutra Medal of Honor PS3 article mentioned something along these lines.....that the game is fillrate bound when only using 4 SPUs in the game!!!!

Yes, we do have an example of one fillrate-bound game, but it's not necessarily going to be a rule. The "bound" will vary from game to game depending on what you're doing. You may have a fillrate bound game one day, then start upping work on the CPU for example, and be CPU-bound the next.
 
BTW, what are the pros/cons of having a fillrate bound game??

Wasn't the Xbox version of MGS2 filrate bound compared to the PS2 version?
 
xbox has a pretty poor fillrate compared to PS2. So thats not surprising.

In the case of PS3, fillrate bound might be a bad thing, as similar tech from ATI/NVidia might mean similar fillrate capability. That means PS3 will have its work cut out to have games that are better looking.

Of course, it could lots more effects per pixel - longer shaders etc (I assume these can be done on the SPEs?). And the fillrate limit will still be massive
 
Kleegamefan said:
BTW, what are the pros/cons of having a fillrate bound game??

Wasn't the Xbox version of MGS2 filrate bound compared to the PS2 version?

pro - cpu is probably not a bottleneck
pro - geometry, vertex operations, transformations are not a bottleneck
con - things associated with pixel calculations are the bottleneck. You have to "downgrade" pixelshader operations, texturing operations etc. to improve performance.

:)
 
Shompola said:
con - things associated with pixel calculations are the bottleneck. You have to "downgrade" pixelshader operations, texturing operations etc. to improve performance.

While that is true do a degree, I think what they're talking about is the bandwidth associated with reading from (15 GB/s) and writing to (20 GB/s) VRAM. In order to reduce the bandwidth taken, you'd have to reduce overdraw and merge passes into a single pass with a longer pixel shader.
 
"OS locked SPUs are so g... er... MrSingh like. And besides, don't you mean "at least" one? :P"

i'm saying nowt! lots of interesting cell info seems to be floating around at the moment. I'm just drumming my fingers waiting for the machine.
 
Shompola said:
con - things associated with pixel calculations are the bottleneck. You have to "downgrade" pixelshader operations, texturing operations etc. to improve performance.

That's if you assume the bound is limiting the framerate to an unacceptable degree. This isn't necessarily the case at all.

Fillrate and texturing/pixelshader ops aren't necessarily tied at the hip either. It's more tied to overdraw/transparency.
 
The good news is this thing should be great for gamers and multimedia apps. That paper on the MIT website a month ago on the implementation of optimizing compilers targeting the PS3 (so that you as the programmer only writes single-threaded code and the compiler partitions it across the SPEs) was even more impressive, because it means code can start seeing the benefits today without programmer intervention.

The bad news is the double-precision Linpack for the 8 SPEs was only 1.3x that of an off-the-shelf $200 Pentium, so the scientific supercomputer applications are going to be pretty limited. It should get more attention in workstations and kiosks that can afford to use single-precision, and cryptography apps, but I doubt anyone is going to go to the trouble to build a large cluster where large problems are by their nature double-precision. The chip is fully-custom too so building a double-precision-targeted SPE could be a large expense.
 
BlueTsunami said:
Could the Cell be used for MMORPG server clusters? Would they benefit from Cell based servers at all?

That's a good example.

If you were really smart, you could use the clients themselves to calculate the expensive effects or AI. Like if you wanted thousands of fallen leaves to swirl around a plaza and around players, you'd ship off a packet of leaves to a couple of PS3s, have them run their physics on SPEs, and then display the results to all the players so the benefits scale accordingly.
 
Cell vs GPU (Ray-tracing)

http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2005/11/30/gpus-vs-cell/

Recently I came across a link on www.gpgpu.org that I found interesting. It described a method of ray-tracing quaternion Julia fractals using the floating point power in graphics processing units (GPUs). The author of the GPU code , Keenan Crane, stated that “This kind of algorithm is pretty much ideal for the GPU - extremely high arithmetic intensity and almost zero bandwidth usage”. I thought it would be interesting to port this Nvidia CG code to the Cell processor, using the public SDK, and see how it performs given that it was ideal for a GPU. First we directly translated the CG code line for line to C + SPE intrinsics. All the CG code structures and data types were maintained. Then we wrote a CG framework to execute this shader for Cell that included a backend image compression and network delivery layer for the finished images. To our surprise, well not really, we found that using only 7 SPEs for rendering a 3.2 GHz Cell chip could out run an Nvidia 7800 GT OC card at this task by about 30%. We reserved one SPE for the image compression and delivery task. Furthermore the way CG structures it SIMD computation is inefficient as it causes large percentages of the code to execute in scalar mode. This is due to the way they structure their vector data, AOS vs SOA. By converting this CG shader from AOS to SOA form, SIMD utilization was much higher which resulted in Cell out performing the Nvidia 7800 by a factor of 5 - 6x using only 7 SPEs for rendering. Given that the Nvidia 7800 GT is listed as having 313 GFLOPs of computational power and seven 3.2 GHz SPEs only have 179.2 GFLOPs this seems impossible but then again maybe we should start reading more white papers and less marketing hype.

The original Cg project is here: http://graphics.cs.uiuc.edu/svn/kcrane/web/project_qjulia.html
 
Fafalada said:
OS locked SPUs are so g... er... MrSingh like. And besides, don't you mean "at least" one? :P

I'd say I want 1 reserved SPU for every SPU given to the programmer + 1 just for the OS calculations/DRM: so 3 SPU's to the programmer and 3 to the OS so they ca allow the user to easily suspend operations or do other general computing.

Then reserve hal of the XDR, FlexIO and VRAM busses' bandwidth, half of the VS ALU's and half of the PS ALU's for general PC computing as well as one of the two threads on the PPE reserved for general PC computing... naturally half of main RAM reserved for the OS and 1/4th of main RAM for the application and 1/4th of main RAM as shadow copy/reserved by the OS like on PSP for fast resume... that would apply to VRAM as well: some of it for the program, some of it reserved as shadow of the running program and some of it reserved for general PC computing (not the game application).

:D.


:EVIL:
 
Fafalada said:
Pana no need to put ideas in their heads - you realize Sony people are reading this forum don't you ;)

Yes, and I hope a certain person here is reading too:

326818866e195e8aa9aq.jpg


;).


(it could be anyone there... whoops... thinking with the keyboard again... again :()
 
Kleegamefan said:
I believe that gamasutra Medal of Honor PS3 article mentioned something along these lines.....that the game is fillrate bound when only using 4 SPUs in the game!!!!
Do you have a link to that?
 
Marconelly said:
Do you have a link to that?

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=6552

The precise quote is:

Some of the most interesting footage and information came at the end of the piece, when Young talked about the latest iteration of the Medal Of Honor series for PlayStation 3, currently in development at EA Los Angeles. He revealed that, while still early in development, the PS3 version of the game was already fill-rate bound, leaving 4 SPUs of the PlayStation 3 ready to be used for code-powered effects such as physics, particles, AI, and so on.

So they were GPU/fillrate bound probably using 2 or at most 3 SPUs.
 
Panajev2001a said:
Yes, and I hope a certain person here is reading too:

326818866e195e8aa9aq.jpg


;).
Are you trying to impress Kutaragi's daughter? Don't you have a wife? :P

And does Kutaragi wax his eyebrows?
 
kaching said:
Are you trying to impress Kutaragi's daughter? Don't you have a wife? :P

Had, man... had... (technically it was fiancee'... just to be precise)


jack%20daniels.JPG
+
glass_cleargoldmetal.jpg





































No, do not worry, it is not near that sadness level now, luckily ;).


Plus, I do not really drink that much :).
 
Wow, The Cell is a real achievement.
Just one of these buggers can pump alot of numbers from what those tables were saying.
The interesting thing is the EIB. Where there two loops going couterclockwise and two going clockwise and each loop can have up to three 16bit data transmissions simultatneously as long as their paths do not overlap.

Funky.
 
http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2005/11/30/gpus-vs-cell/


GPUs vs Cell



Blogged under Cell by Barry Minor on Wednesday 30 November 2005 at 7:39
pm


Recently I came across a link on www.gpgpu.org that I found
interesting. It described a method of ray-tracing quaternion Julia
fractals using the floating point power in graphics processing units
(GPUs). The author of the GPU code , Keenan Crane, stated that "This
kind of algorithm is pretty much ideal for the GPU - extremely high
arithmetic intensity and almost zero bandwidth usage". I thought it
would be interesting to port this Nvidia CG code to the Cell processor,
using the public SDK, and see how it performs given that it was ideal
for a GPU. First we directly translated the CG code line for line to C
+ SPE intrinsics. All the CG code structures and data types were
maintained. Then we wrote a CG framework to execute this shader for
Cell that included a backend image compression and network delivery
layer for the finished images. To our surprise, well not really, we
found that using only 7 SPEs for rendering a 3.2 GHz Cell chip could
out run an Nvidia 7800 GT OC card at this task by about 30%. We
reserved one SPE for the image compression and delivery task.
Furthermore the way CG structures it SIMD computation is inefficient as
it causes large percentages of the code to execute in scalar mode. This
is due to the way they structure their vector data, AOS vs SOA. By
converting this CG shader from AOS to SOA form, SIMD utilization was
much higher which resulted in Cell out performing the Nvidia 7800 by a
factor of 5 - 6x using only 7 SPEs for rendering. Given that the Nvidia
7800 GT is listed as having 313 GFLOPs of computational power and seven
3.2 GHz SPEs only have 179.2 GFLOPs this seems impossible but then
again maybe we should start reading more white papers and less
marketing hype.
 
Panajev2001a said:
Had, man... had... (technically it was fiancee'... just to be precise)


jack%20daniels.JPG
+
glass_cleargoldmetal.jpg


No, do not worry, it is not near that sadness level now, luckily ;).


Plus, I do not really drink that much :).
Oh, Pana...I'm very sorry for having made a joke out of that now. I had no idea, obviously. Glad to see you're taking it well.

Looks like I truly earned my tag this morning.
 
kaching said:
Oh, Pana...I'm very sorry for having made a joke out of that now. I had no idea, obviously. Glad to see you're taking it well.

Looks like I truly earned my tag this morning.

Don't feel bad, it has been almost a year and lots of things have happened. It is good when you have supportive friends and family. I especially love this past summer, it rocked.
 
Beowolf said:

:lol

Its not really hype though and this information is coming from IBM "White Papers". Not from a sketchy journalist that jazzifies information. Its pretty much legit and isn't ~exactly~ about the PS3 but more about Cell in particular
 
Considering they used 7 SPEs to do it I'm not sure it will be very useful in terms of real-life game development anyway.
 
Well I guess I'm looking at the basic function.

I understand the basics of dual core and triple core processors, but Cell confuses me. You have one core processor with 7 SPE. The SPE are what confuse me. How exactly do they function with the main processor. How do one SPE alone handle things like physics alone when X360 games like CoD2 are dedicated an entire core just to physics?
 
Helllooooo nurse!

I seriously doubt anyone knows what this shit means for ps3 and xbox 360. If they did this thread would be 25 pages by now. Continue to bump it though, maybe eventually youll get a flame war going. :lol
 
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