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Character-creators are not the solution to diversity in representation
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
What games are you talking about?
I don't disagree with the general premise, as long as the game is about telling a story.
"Diversity" means a broad range of things in my mind (in this context anyway):
One of them is the diversity of stories being told, from various experiences (so for example, the life experience of a woman, will be different than the one of a man, and so on).
In this case character creation can be a hindrance to telling a different and compelling story, because of the reason you expressed (though i'd argue that it differs depending on the genre, a deep WRPG can certainly offer the ability to tell a deep and diverse story WHILE offering player choice), and there is also the easy trap you can fall into, of ending up in nasty stereotype territory while trying to tell a "diverse story", exactly because you're thinking too hard about how different it must be to be X instead of Y (this isn't just a problem of who's telling the story, but also one of opportunity: some games just mechanically do not offer room for depth and nuance).
Another big one is the idea of feeling represented and depicted in media, and this is also something you can fix with a CC only to a limited extent (basically, i can make my character be like me, but if i never see him/her on the billboards or in the marketing, or anywhere else, it does feel like i'm getting in from the service door).
In this sense i agree that straight up stories with diverse casting (and not CC) are a social necessity.
On the flip side (or not really flip side, but in defence of CC): Many genres and games have very little place to tell an interesting story, let alone a nuanced one, and it's not an inherent flaw.
Mario can have a transgendered character for sure, but Mario shouldn't try to tackle transgender issues, because it has no place to give the subject the attention it needs (unless they fundamentally change the structure of the game, but that's a whole other experimental talk).
And so in that sense, for many games CC is an appropriate response to give everyone they amount of identity representation they need, without trying to bite more than they can chew, narratively speaking.
It seems like i'm saying games should remain unambitious, when it comes to storytelling, but that's not my point; i think recognizing that games are half a narrative tool, and half a mechanics based toy, is an important step in discussing the medium.
Finally, and this may just be more of a personal note: I never try to recreate myself in character creators, i usually try to use them as a way to be creative, to create a character with a(n unspoken) background, a back story, a personality, even if it's just a narratively barebone game (thinking of like, SKATE, for example).
This means that in any given game with CC, i'll end up having a variety of characters spanning gender and race of all kinds, and that's why i love CC so much.
It not only makes for a more fresh experience every time, but also pushes me to play in ways i usually wouldn't, because i'm interpreting a character's action based on who they are, rather than mirroring my own.
"Diversity" means a broad range of things in my mind (in this context anyway):
One of them is the diversity of stories being told, from various experiences (so for example, the life experience of a woman, will be different than the one of a man, and so on).
In this case character creation can be a hindrance to telling a different and compelling story, because of the reason you expressed (though i'd argue that it differs depending on the genre, a deep WRPG can certainly offer the ability to tell a deep and diverse story WHILE offering player choice), and there is also the easy trap you can fall into, of ending up in nasty stereotype territory while trying to tell a "diverse story", exactly because you're thinking too hard about how different it must be to be X instead of Y (this isn't just a problem of who's telling the story, but also one of opportunity: some games just mechanically do not offer room for depth and nuance).
Another big one is the idea of feeling represented and depicted in media, and this is also something you can fix with a CC only to a limited extent (basically, i can make my character be like me, but if i never see him/her on the billboards or in the marketing, or anywhere else, it does feel like i'm getting in from the service door).
In this sense i agree that straight up stories with diverse casting (and not CC) are a social necessity.
On the flip side (or not really flip side, but in defence of CC): Many genres and games have very little place to tell an interesting story, let alone a nuanced one, and it's not an inherent flaw.
Mario can have a transgendered character for sure, but Mario shouldn't try to tackle transgender issues, because it has no place to give the subject the attention it needs (unless they fundamentally change the structure of the game, but that's a whole other experimental talk).
And so in that sense, for many games CC is an appropriate response to give everyone they amount of identity representation they need, without trying to bite more than they can chew, narratively speaking.
It seems like i'm saying games should remain unambitious, when it comes to storytelling, but that's not my point; i think recognizing that games are half a narrative tool, and half a mechanics based toy, is an important step in discussing the medium.
Finally, and this may just be more of a personal note: I never try to recreate myself in character creators, i usually try to use them as a way to be creative, to create a character with a(n unspoken) background, a back story, a personality, even if it's just a narratively barebone game (thinking of like, SKATE, for example).
This means that in any given game with CC, i'll end up having a variety of characters spanning gender and race of all kinds, and that's why i love CC so much.
It not only makes for a more fresh experience every time, but also pushes me to play in ways i usually wouldn't, because i'm interpreting a character's action based on who they are, rather than mirroring my own.
MasterOfPastures
Banned
He might be future posting about The New Colossus.
This
People over simplify the diversity issue. Just having one black character or one woman doesn't make a game a shining example of diversity, however a game that doesn't have a main character that is black, a woman, Hispanic, etc. doesn't make it an exemplary game. You need to account for much more details and factors.
PaulBizkit
Member
Dahhh c'mon, OP, if being able to create a black woman with an afro and male voice with cockney accent in Saint's Row is not diversity, then nothing else is.
For example?
For example?
SolidSnakex
Member
That sounds like Uncharted 4. People are still angry about Nadine laying into Drake and Sam.
TheCthultist
Member
Yeah, thats kind of where I what i was thinking. Prior to this thread I've never encountered someone claiming that character creators have any relevance to diversity in a game. Honestly, anyone toting that around as a genuine opinion is just opening themselves up to be proven wrong over and over again...
Like I figured it had to do with Nadine at the very least, but like, I'm not understanding his snarky tone at all.
The phenomenon they're alluding to is having diversity "parachuted in", meaning that while their existence in the game gives an appearance of diversity, without narrative elements that make them distinct from the rest of the predominantly white and/or male cast of characters, it makes it appear to be more of a token gesture that could easily be replaced by a character from the majority (like a white person in the case of racial "parachuting") at best, and an indication that racial diversity is only fine if characters of different races "act white" or play to gender biases at worst.
Thinking "black characters" means it's diverse also doesn't help things when there's other races (like Arab, Asian, Polynesian, the Indigenous populations of North America) who are constantly straining for their voices to be heard in the diversity discussion, when some might say having black characters is enough and pack it up. Same thing can be said of gay characters drowning out the experience of the rest of the QUILTBAG community (or LGBTQ, if you prefer).
I mean, someone can feel free to correct me, but I think that's the gist of what they're trying to inform about here. Without a narrative justification for them being there, be it playable or NPC character, it can just as easily be an appearance of diversity rather than true diversity.
I find Blade & Soul is a particularly interesting example.
The game has to accommodate players running as anything from the tiniest and cutest female Lyn to the biggest and burliest male Gon. They give the player character a set personality (which is sort of a blank slate at the beginning) and then develop them over time, with pretty much everything in the story revolving around their quest for revenge, their personal growth during this quest, and their relationships with the people they run into.
The thing is, the way people react to the character should be different depending on what race and possibly gender they're playing as, but it's all written generically. And oddly enough, it works, but it also deprives the story of a certain level of intimacy. It can be particularly odd when NPCs are commenting on your physical quirks (including one NPC who comments on your muscle, which I found particularly amusing as I was playing a female Lyn who are, let's face it, not even close to being able to be described as "muscular"), where you'd expect at least some level of variation depending on the PC's particular combination of traits.
It's particularly noteworthy here because the game's character creator is incredibly detailed, so you can have characters with grody scars or weird physical abnormalities or bizarre hair & skin color combinations or even really unsettling eyes, but no one will comment on those because of the limitations of our tech (or the resources they have available, or the ability of the developers to even create a system that can take such factors into account, or whatever else prevents such a thing from being implemented). The only way we can have those happen, at least at our current level of technology, is simply to have a set protagonist who has those features so they can write around that character. Such is the curse of games with character creation.
I'm still waiting for the day when we can have games with strong character creators where people actually comment on their particular quirks. I hope that, with the rise of actually functional AI, we won't have to wait too long before that happens. Until then, yeah, we need more unique minority characters since our resources are quite limited right now. It's the only way those stories can be told.
I don't see what's wrong with "token gestures" in this context though.
As i said diversity of experiences is also a plus, but most videogames don't really talk about gender or race specific experiences, most videogame stories are about X character fighting aliens, in which case, real world background nuance is virtually irrelevant.
MasterChief being black or white changes nothing about Halo, because MasterChief's race was never going to be a relevant plot point.
In that sense, offering "token diversity" as you put it, is the only realistic option, but it still counts for something, if you have an interest in diminishing the sense of "white male = standard".
Well, when it coems to black ladies with afros, I can think of off the top of my head there was the lady from Wolfenstein 2, Nadine from Uncharted 4, and the new character from Beyond Good and Evil 2
But that's mostly all I can think of.
FTFY
Simply put, having a character of a certain race that can easily be swapped out with a white person is not considered a great achievement in diversity to some people, and it is troubling that some could consider that "enough".
That wasn't an argument being made, but OK, yes, some games contain context where the cultural experience doesn't matter due to the setting of the game. That's not necessarily what is being discussed, when you consider that several games make a point of drawing upon modern cultural experience in other ways except the cultural experiences of other races represented in games.
I never said it didn't. The trouble is whether or not that becomes an easy out to keep from pushing further and ensuring that the cultural experience of other races is equally represented. Also, I added an additional point about other races in the original post that should be looked into.
I agree with the premise of the thread in that they aren't a solution to increasing represention.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with criticism of them as lacking an identity the player can empathise with though, as they trace their history back to pen and paper roleplaying games. What's lacking is computer roleplaying games adopting any player input into character creation other than looks/class etc- when creating a character for a pen-and-paper game players often come up with loads of background to create a character distinct from themselves, and it's something I at least think about in computer game RPGs when creating a character. Its just a bit of a shame that the paths in computer games are pretty much restricted to 'is your character a self-sacrificing goody-two-shoes or just a bit of an arsehole'.
Where it's more of an action game with little opportunity to pick and choose what you get involved with, if we're discussing whether changing mr space marine's skin colour and haircut means anything, then yeah, I think a set character allows deeper interaction with the linear path through the game. Personally, when playing RPGs that are more sandboxy, I much prefer characters I've written myself even if the game doesn't know all the stuff in my head and can't possibly change to acknowledge all of it- it should have the info from my choices to adapt to a crude understanding of who my character is instead.
Some games I definitely think 'a set character works here' and, as more genres merge and more games adopt rpg elements, some I think 'I'd much rather have had more choice'.
I'm not sure I entirely agree with criticism of them as lacking an identity the player can empathise with though, as they trace their history back to pen and paper roleplaying games. What's lacking is computer roleplaying games adopting any player input into character creation other than looks/class etc- when creating a character for a pen-and-paper game players often come up with loads of background to create a character distinct from themselves, and it's something I at least think about in computer game RPGs when creating a character. Its just a bit of a shame that the paths in computer games are pretty much restricted to 'is your character a self-sacrificing goody-two-shoes or just a bit of an arsehole'.
Where it's more of an action game with little opportunity to pick and choose what you get involved with, if we're discussing whether changing mr space marine's skin colour and haircut means anything, then yeah, I think a set character allows deeper interaction with the linear path through the game. Personally, when playing RPGs that are more sandboxy, I much prefer characters I've written myself even if the game doesn't know all the stuff in my head and can't possibly change to acknowledge all of it- it should have the info from my choices to adapt to a crude understanding of who my character is instead.
Some games I definitely think 'a set character works here' and, as more genres merge and more games adopt rpg elements, some I think 'I'd much rather have had more choice'.
Well for starters what's the developer's intent? And does it fit the scenario they're trying to show?
Examples:
Do you consider that historical shooters that didn't include women to be wrong?
Do you consider games like elder scrolls to be racist because out of the ten main races only two are naturally dark color skin? Thus making them the minority.
Do you consider great games like the legacy of Kain to be racist and against diversity because there are no representations of black, Hispanic or Asian characters?
Bonus question:
Also without context many things seem different than what they are. For example Cole from gears of war looks to be a very typical and somewhat racist depiction of the only black character at first glance. But when you look at the VA and his love for playing his character can you really call him a racist? Considering that his personality is the template of his character, and he loves projecting himself in that way.
Eolz
Member
Ok I understand better like this.
But this is more an issue with the story itself then. If you compare let's say (comparing only RPGs since they're all about story) Witcher 3 with a Bethesda game, obviously people will go in that sense, but if you compare something like Kingdom Hearts to Baldur's Gate 2 or KOTOR, I'm really not sure that would give the same result...
Anyway, I agree with your post, just saying that this kind of study/opinion can be hard to gauge depending on the games and tastes.
It's not like character creation is even that inclusive anyway. Many different races and body types are still left out by the options or outright ignored, and that could (and should) be improved instead of striking CC out of the picture. I definitely don't think they are a replacement of any form to diversity and representation in games, but they do more good than harm in my opinion.
I mean, it's not like you can force a white cis het dudebro to play with a black trans bi women even if its the only option for the game. He might as well just skip the game instead. This is overly simplifying things and could hurt the developer trying to tell a good story and raise awareness to representation issues more than help, in the end. Perhaps you can do more by still offering character creation but using the plot and side characters, not the protagonist, as the means of getting the white cis het dudebro to care about black trans bi women. Games with character creation are usually pretty light on content regarding the protagonist motivations and backstories anyway to account for all the possible things you can do on them, don't bank it all on the weaker link of the chain, and let games with a strong, defined narrative take the forced protagonist roles mainly.
I mean, it's not like you can force a white cis het dudebro to play with a black trans bi women even if its the only option for the game. He might as well just skip the game instead. This is overly simplifying things and could hurt the developer trying to tell a good story and raise awareness to representation issues more than help, in the end. Perhaps you can do more by still offering character creation but using the plot and side characters, not the protagonist, as the means of getting the white cis het dudebro to care about black trans bi women. Games with character creation are usually pretty light on content regarding the protagonist motivations and backstories anyway to account for all the possible things you can do on them, don't bank it all on the weaker link of the chain, and let games with a strong, defined narrative take the forced protagonist roles mainly.
Yeah, one of my biggest pet peeves is when a game with character creation either omits body sliders or has crappy range on the ones available (breast sliders in particular being a real sore point for me). On top of that there are a number of games that don't let you control muscle tone and/or mass even when they do have a good range on the sliders. And then of course, there's the issue of dark skin tones not being properly represented (most notably with regards to the patches of lighter skin that real dark-skinned people have on their palms and soles).
And no list of CC gripes is complete without mention of gender-locking. And I mean gender-locked anything - hairstyles, tattoos, accessories, outfits, whatever. I really hate this practice and, unfortunately, it's pretty bloody ubiquitous. Especially the hairstyles, the one thing where gender-locking makes no sense at all! Sigh.
Simply including any form of character creation is clearly no silver bullet. I wish we could say we're only improving on this front, but sadly that is simply not the case. I wish Dragon's Dogma's character creation could be a standard in the industry. If only...
GrinningColossus
Member
Well worded argument. I'm fully onboard with the OP.
Heh, I guess you're not wrong that gaming still hasn't gone through its Blaxploitation phase. At least the intentions are good/their hearts are in the right place most of the time.
Nah, it's not about "me", i think it's a matter of fact that most videogame stories are so basic and barebones, that specific experiences would factor very little into anything, so having the main character be black (or asian, or anything else) rather than white, without changing a single line of dialog, is still better than nothing.
Especially since the vast majority of games aren't even set in the modern, real world in the first place.
You can totally have black characters in Final Fantasy, but they probably won't bring into the story the experience of being black in the real world with them (and honestly, they shouldn't).
This is akin to the old argument of Lara Croft's sexual assault in Tomb Raider to me, where people were asking themselves, why a female Indiana Jones, couldn't just be a lady going around tombs for the sake of it, like a male counter part would be, but instead needed further motivation to just be there.
Again, i'm certainly not opposed to diversity even in deeper cultural representation, on the contrary, on a selfish level, that's what would benefit ME the most, but i don't see how that negates the idea of just inserting characters that look different from the status quo, even without having to change the script to do so, especially since, again, most games don't really need that to work.
Make that "most" games.
But if the worry is complacency, sure.
People should always strive to better themselves, and this includes everyone in the production chain of a videogame, but i don't see having more arbitrary diverse characters in games as a real hindrance to that, i see it as just a bonus on the way to it.
It's why i don't really buy the argument of "forced diversity" as a negative, because most stories have no real reason to have a white cast, they just do.