RichiRamjag
Member
My gut guess is, the lady in question is...
I know you can't comment
Given that they wanted it remain anonymous, maybe leave their name out of it?
I mean especially given the context of the story...
My gut guess is, the lady in question is...
I know you can't comment
I think the issue highlighted here is a more specific case than what is described in the OP. It has the elements of the typical Dunning Kruger response, but more specifically it is about sexist tendencies in the public, it could potentially happen regardless of openness. This account mirrors a lot of other similar incidents.A developer passed this note on to me, and asked to be anonymous for obvious reasons:
My gut guess is, the lady in question is [Redacted].
I know you can't comment
What other medium has this problem? We talk about changes to scripts/drafts/etc in movies, books, shows, music, etc all the time. Behind the scenes and candid discussion about the creative process and changes in those mediums are quite popularThis is also why I think it's pointless to talk about features that were cut or show old concept art. You'll always have someone lose their top over how the cut feature or old design was so much better than what they got.
What other medium has this problem? We talk about changes to scripts/drafts/etc in movies, books, shows, music, etc all the time. Behind the scenes and candid discussion about the creative process and changes in those mediums are quite popular
it was the Rock Band 4 PC Fig.
What other medium has this problem? We talk about changes to scripts/drafts/etc in movies, books, shows, music, etc all the time. Behind the scenes and candid discussion about the creative process and changes in those mediums are quite popular
I think theres a difference between the whoa, imagine how cool this would have been that people get from Unseen64 and actually being open to discussing the mindset and process behind changes, like most are with filmThat's equally popular in gaming - Unseen64 is proof of that.
The cut feature thing is a different problem, and it's one that other mediums suffer less with. It's changes that occur during the marketing cycle of a game. I think it's a combination of books/movies/shows being more predicatable processes, and things like movies having well-planned hype-cycle, but exceptions to occur - Rogue One was a good example of that.
Because the lootboxes are crap?Deeke[VRZ];249949779 said:Reminds me of today's Eurogamer interview with Monolith; essentially the Shadow of War design director wants more feedback on new features but loot boxes steal the conversation at every turn.
It's sad tbh. Imagine how open the industry would be if things were different. Imagine how many games would exist and how much competition there'd be, and how confident devs would be in their games and creations.
And yet that info exists in film despite tabloids and TMZ fueling a trashy fanbase that obsesses over toxic things like actors weights, who's dating who etc.I wish people were more interested in game dev the way people are fascinated by behind-the-scenes of movies. Reading devlogs, watching GDC talks, channels on game design really showcase just how complex and complicated game development is, and makes the final products that much more impressive
Hes right, but im not sure his incredibly atagonistic tone is going to enlighten anyone about anything.
Apparently anyone who doesnt like a game and doesnt just "move on" instead of critisizing is a dumbass.
Not sure jowbthe medium is supposed to move forward that way. Hell im sure lots of devs would disagree with him.
To be honest this varies so much between project and if you take into account all disciplines and factors like marketing strategy, platform relations there rarely is a clear line to be seen. Publishers themselves are rarely "Project Management" and deal more in high-level product and portfolio strategy and greenlighting high-level decisions. Almost always the project management staff is still considered to be development team staff (so Game Directors, Executive Producers, Project Managers, Development Managers etc. are dev team staff, not publishing staff), and of course they work constantly with the developers themselves.
There's a serious issue going in this industry. Seems each year this toxic environment just gets worse.
As somebody that's about to start community management things for a major gaming company, I'm scared after reading this. It's going to be so hard to thicken my skin enough that these things bounce right off me, while still offering good content to our players.
All of these vary so much that there is no answer.Ah, I see... Thanks for the response.
I think (and I might be wrong here of course) that knowing about responsibilities can inform who we can ask/talk to when some decisions are made (e.g., 30FPS, microtransactions, DLC, etc).
A developer passed this note on to me, and asked to be anonymous for obvious reasons:
He specifically addresses that. Theres nothing wrong with critique. At some point, you just dont like the product and you move on though. If youre arguing for continued harassment or continually dwelling on being negative about product that isnt for you, then I dont know what to tell you.
His point isnt really all that crazy.
I don't think the game industry is particularly special in this regard. He thinks it is because that is what he is exposed to. If you spend time with the obsessive fans of other media, you'll find "toxic" discussion as well.
Dwelling on something you hate is a big problem in gaming. Hate it, fine. Articulate your points if needed.
But I see people on gaf all the time who will jump into every thread related to something they hate for months just to remind everyone. Not healthy.
It's a discussion forum. It's the flipside of effusive praise. People feel strongly about things, positive or negative. That's true throughout life - you can't just get the good. It's all different shades of caring about something.
For instance MvCI has gotten a lot of shit, but that's because people care about the franchise. No Man's Sky got a lot of shit, but that's because people got invested in the idea and felt lied to.
It's just how fandom works.
Fits into this topic I think. I agree with Randall and Bleszinski both. Nothing bothers and disappoints me more in this industry than the consumers. Not "lazy devs" or "greedy pubs", but obnoxious assholes.
Everything he's posted is 100% true and applicable even to this forum, which is depressing considering how well moderated this place tends to be.
Seems accurate to me.
Are death threats a "passionate response"?
Fanboyism is the fucking worst.
Bollocks.
He's deliberately obfuscating GameFAQs-level stupidity with valid criticism to deflect blame. I don't care how hard he thinks his job is, his industry absolutely should be called out by the consumer for loot boxes and selling broken games.
This GAF thread just goes on to prove the OPs point.
Reading into the posts to construct an argument thats wasnt made? Check.
Randomly launching into non sequitor rants about unrelated business models? Check.
Butthurt lashing out? Check.
Reading the tweets as uncharitably as possible? Check and mate.
The entire tweet thread is on point, but to dial into one topic he touched...if you don't like a game, just let it go and move on. I very seldom post about games I played and dropped because I didn't like them. In part because I rarely play enough of them to judge the quality, but enough to tell they're not for me. I always leave open the possibility that the game is quality but just not something that I happen to enjoy or was in the mood for, and I'm not going to slight the developer because I barely touched their game. I never understood people who go all in on things they don't like. Life's too short.
Jim Sterlingin a nutshell. Creating a culture of constant negativity, criticism, harassment and abuse is ruining gaming more than any questionable business practices or shitty Steam devs ever could.and most of GAF
The trainwreck that was the public obsession over No Man's Sky comes to mind. That was a game that genuinely had problems because the developer failed to deliver at launch, yes - but a lot of people really came across as emotionally disturbed in their unending obsession with the fact that a video game disappointed them. The controversy over Mass Effect 3's ending is also up there.
There is a lot of obsessive-compulsive negativity in gaming; it tends to be a thing in "nerdy" communities in general, but gaming definitely has earned a reputation for sheer hostility and internet hate campaigns.
I know some people who work on games or are the lead developers. They like critique and taking games apart, and could talk for days about what is right or wrong about a game. They are however all quite weary of and demotivated by the sea of misanthropic personalities that gaming seems dominated by.
What other medium has this problem? We talk about changes to scripts/drafts/etc in movies, books, shows, music, etc all the time. Behind the scenes and candid discussion about the creative process and changes in those mediums are quite popular
Holy shit, this thread is beyond embarrassing. So many armchair devs lecturing Lab Zero about costs and the work involved when they clearly know fucking nothing. Absolutely pathetic.Here's a fantastic microcosm of what happens when reality intersects with GAF, nevermind the general public
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=516730
That's depressing as fuck. :\A developer passed this note on to me, and asked to be anonymous for obvious reasons:
That's not what he's saying. "Moving on" here doesn't mean shut up/say nothing/do not criticize, it means not going after the devs, not harassing them, sic'ing your Youtube subscribers/Twitter followers on them, etc.Hes right, but im not sure his incredibly atagonistic tone is going to enlighten anyone about anything.
Apparently anyone who doesnt like a game and doesnt just "move on" instead of critisizing is a dumbass.
Not sure jowbthe medium is supposed to move forward that way. Hell im sure lots of devs would disagree with him.
Holy shit, this thread is beyond embarrassing. So many armchair devs lecturing Lab Zero about costs and the work involved when they clearly know fucking nothing. Absolutely pathetic.
That's depressing as fuck. :
That's not what he's saying. "Moving on" here doesn't mean shut up/say nothing/do not criticize, it means not going after the devs, not harassing them, sic'ing your Youtube subscribers/Twitter followers on them, etc.
This is really fucked up and depressing, and sadly all too common.A developer passed this note on to me, and asked to be anonymous for obvious reasons:
Mass Effect is a perfect example of hate for a game or dev turning into a meme. For forum-goers it becomes a fun joke, but for devs it becomes exhausting - and that's before the hatred starts being targeted at individuals. It becomes less about wanting to see the game improve and more about wanting to see it fail.
I...what...I'm actually more of the opinion that the root of a lot of toxicity comes back to a level of self preservation.
Every facet of the video game industry seems to feed back into this idea of self-preservation, which has an unfortunate bi-product of negativity, or toxicity, towards everything else. When I buy a game and I like it, it is in my best interest to publicly praise this game to the best of my ability, while at the same time discredit similar products that could potentially be considered competition.
Lets start with a solid multiplayer game, Im going to use Overwatch as an example. To start with, for me to best maximize my enjoyment out of Overwatch I need to do a couple of things. Firstly, I want all my friends to play it, so I need to sell them on the game. Some buy in, some are hesitant, maybe they want to play Battleborn instead. Now my enjoyment has been threatened. There are two ways to deal with this threat. Try to praise Overwatch even more, or try to belittle Battleborn to the point that it is no longer interesting.
...This means I might find myself against Devil May Cry or God of War or even Zelda. This becomes problematic when I find someone else who prefers God of War, as Im now at odds with someone and feel the need to win this conflict when most likely Im just pointing out all of God of Wars flaws and shitting all over a great game.
...Its all that reinforcement. For me to enjoy a game as long as I can, I basically have to compete against other games to preserve mine, both to ensure my duration with the game is plentiful, and so that the publisher recognizes the games worth and hopefully franchises it. I believe that every gamer on some level feels this subconscious issue of preservation. Some might lean more on the praise the game to sell more side, while others will lean more fuck that other game though, its terrible and here is why. In either case, games will always compete with other games, because in the end, we get feedback from publishers rather quick on whether an IP is worthy enough to continue.
A developer passed this note on to me, and asked to be anonymous for obvious reasons:
I...what...
You are overthinking this way too much
Like are you completely serious that you actually justify game-related stuff like this to yourself? I find it hard to fathom that kind of mindset. Do you do the same with movies?
I'm actually more of the opinion that the root of a lot of toxicity comes back to a level of self preservation.
Every facet of the video game industry seems to feed back into this idea of self-preservation, which has an unfortunate bi-product of negativity, or toxicity, towards everything else. When I buy a game and I like it, it is in my best interest to publicly praise this game to the best of my ability, while at the same time discredit similar products that could potentially be considered competition.
Lets start with a solid multiplayer game, Im going to use Overwatch as an example. To start with, for me to best maximize my enjoyment out of Overwatch I need to do a couple of things. Firstly, I want all my friends to play it, so I need to sell them on the game. Some buy in, some are hesitant, maybe they want to play Battleborn instead. Now my enjoyment has been threatened. There are two ways to deal with this threat. Try to praise Overwatch even more, or try to belittle Battleborn to the point that it is no longer interesting. But what about when my friends arent playing? Well, now I need strangers. Now it has become my best interest to keep sales of Overwatch high, keep new players coming in. This creates a positive feedback loop because more players likely means more content for my game (or if this wasnt Overwatch, it creates a healthy potential of a sequel). Again, I do my part to praise the game while simultaneously minimizing any threats to the best of my abilities. In short, its in my best interest that the games I enjoy sell well, review well, and maintain well.
This doesnt just have to be about multiplayer games, though they are easier to advertise for. However, the same still applies for single player games. I absolutely loved Darksiders, but the only way to get more Darksiders is to convince enough people to play Darksiders so that I might one day get the conclusion to my story (No, not alone ). This means I might find myself against Devil May Cry or God of War or even Zelda. This becomes problematic when I find someone else who prefers God of War, as Im now at odds with someone and feel the need to win this conflict when most likely Im just pointing out all of God of Wars flaws and shitting all over a great game.
What about before a game even comes out, though? Well, same rules apply. If I see a game that I know I want to be successful, it is again in my best interest for this game to sell as much as possible as fast as possible, while maintaining legs as long as possible. Anyone who has played a multiplayer game past its prime knows what Im talking about. How many of you Overwatch regulars felt it when Destiny 2 released this month? And you know we are going to feel it again for the PC release. Queue times are going to go up, which means general lag is going to more common, which means matches are going to be less fun more often than they currently are. This is true for every major release. Every time a new AAA-title comes out, the population of any existing game is going to take a hit. Some developers/games can handle this better than others. Some you might notice some shitty queues for a few days, others you might notice a reduction in playlists or game modes. After enough time has passed, youll eventually find that its not worth it for a dev to keep a server up anymore and you cant even play the game you enjoy anymore, all because of other games stealing players.
I have such fond memories of playing multiplayer for Halo 3, Castlevania: Harmony of Despair, Super Monday Night Combat, and Brutal Legend. All of these I can no longer enjoy because the playerbase for them is effectively gone.
Its all that reinforcement. For me to enjoy a game as long as I can, I basically have to compete against other games to preserve mine, both to ensure my duration with the game is plentiful, and so that the publisher recognizes the games worth and hopefully franchises it. I believe that every gamer on some level feels this subconscious issue of preservation. Some might lean more on the praise the game to sell more side, while others will lean more fuck that other game though, its terrible and here is why. In either case, games will always compete with other games, because in the end, we get feedback from publishers rather quick on whether an IP is worthy enough to continue.
Note that in this medium at the worst of times there are entire communities dedicated to harassing developers, like KiA and gamergate, and the things that are considered benign are the complete overreactions for some of the most ridiculous things to overreact about, for instance, the recent cuphead debacle for instance, or that story someone posted awhile back about a woman getting harassed for the crime of working as an artist on a video game. I genuinely can't think of any community that reacts to things like the gaming community.I don't see much of this going on but a) I stick to GAF, b) I don't spend much time in tech threads, c) I don't spend much time in AAA game threads. I think those three things combined make it a bit of a culture shock when people talk about how bad it gets.
Really? Thats pretty odd and definitely not a healthy mindset.
I think if you really cared about this subject, you would do yourself a service by doing research on people's experiences with both engines and how things are done in both engines instead of looking at correlations and making generalized assumption based on a shallow understanding of game development.on the subject of engines, can we agree that Unity is a less mature engine than Unreal? without actually knowing much about engines, thats all I ever wanted to say about them.
Got any names I can google to see more about this?
I think if you really cared about this subject, you would do yourself a service by doing research on people's experiences with both engines and how things are done in both engines instead of looking at correlations and making generalized assumption based on a shallow understanding of game development.
Wow. This sucks.A developer passed this note on to me, and asked to be anonymous for obvious reasons:
On the public and developers being candid:
"I am someone that runs an independent games company. The size and amount of games doesn't matter. I have multiple women that work with me in this company that we've all assembled together. For public interaction, and even in credits, they prefer to have me be a proxy name and the company as a proxy brand they work under than reveal they are women working on a game. Because they will get harassment to the point of having to shut off public-facing accounts and/or weird messages from gamers.
One time I messed up a level in a game I worked on. It was all my fault - but someone found out my female friend and co-worker was the artist that worked on arting the level afterwards. Did they come after me? Nope. They went after her. I spent a bunch of time publicly trying to get them to go away; I publicly made it clear I was the one responsible for the poor execution of said level, that I was the one they should be critiquing - but they would not relent. There was an entire thread on a forum dedicated to talking about her.
Being candid about even -working on a game- cost her the ability to have a social media account. The things some people will post about a developer get deeply personal with no prompting or escalation by a developer, just for perceive slights of being "owed", and for women working on a game you just add an automatic 50x multiplier making it even more worse and more personal. For a male developer saying something was due to our engine not being there yet, we will be called lazy. For a woman that talks about an engine not being there yet, she'll be called dumb.
Forwarded anonymously because posting this under an actual name would defeat the point of my friends using my company as a proxy for their work."