mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
DiatribeEQ said:
It's a $33K car after the rebate. And you can lease the car for $350 a month for 36 months. That's not that bad.
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Chevy Volt... where's the beef? 126.7 real world MPG by MotorTrend
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It's a $33K car after the rebate. And you can lease the car for $350 a month for 36 months. That's not that bad.
Zombie James
Banned
126.7mpg == 1.86L/100km. On a $20 fill up @ $1.00/l, that's 1075.5km (if my math is right). That's kind of nuts.
Diatribe1974
Member
biggersmaller said:
Guess I wasn't clear: I'm not defending this car. All I said was that yeah, it gets great mileage, but it's a 40,000$ car. That it was also 2x+ what other cars cost. Until the price of this car comes down, it is NOT worth purchasing, regardless of it's benefits. It's like spending 100,000 to make your home completely "off-grid" & no longer pay a water/electric/gas bill. You might never recoup the cost of investment either. Same goes with this car. A person can say "Well, it's better for the environment!" So is car pooling with a couple friends.
mckmas8808 said:
Again, the list & lease aren't terrible, but the costs are subsidized by the federal government and Chevy is losing money on each car sold. In addition that's still almost twice as much as a base level Civic, or 33% more than a new Prius even after the tax rebate. It's a "flagship" car that Chevy acknowledges won't generate any profit now or in the immediate future (and may never generate any). We're all talking about this car like it's a stop-gap until the next best thing, but if it's not going to ever repay it's initial investment cost then what's the point? Carmakers are already trotting out EVs with price points to compete directly with the existing compact car market and hybrids that hit high-40s combined MPG, and Tesla is making noise about a competitively priced family sedan with a 300 mile range in 2014 (not to mention what the other big carmakers are doing). And we're throwing around 300-mile ranges like that should be expected as the norm, when that's nearly the equivalent of driving from Philly to Boston, something people do maybe 1 time a year to visit grandma on Christmas (and is terrible for the environment which defeats the whole "green" argument). It just seems like we're all stretching to like this car despite all these drawbacks and the cost associated with it. I don't know, to me this looks like the EV1 all over again, a wildly expensive R&D "flagship" research project from GM that is going to be canned in a few years with no significant returns.
soundahfekz
Member
DiatribeEQ said:
To you. I love it when people's opinion is delivered as fact.
I never said it was cost effective. In fact, I was going to follow up my previous posts with actual estimates on payback.
Assuming you get rebates and drive the car off the lot for $33,000, and assuming a similar vehicle without the fuel efficiency options costs $26,000, and assuming the $26,000 car we're comparing against can actually achieve 30 mpg in LA traffic since that's the baseline of my previous analysis:
The premium paid by the owner for the Volt drivetrain is $7,000. The Volt driver is saving about $4.90 per 100 miles driven per my previous analysis. He would have to drive the Volt over 140,000 miles in order to break even, assuming identical maintenance costs and that the cost ratio between gasoline and the electric utility rate stays the same.
Assuming you get rebates and drive the car off the lot for $33,000, and assuming a similar vehicle without the fuel efficiency options costs $26,000, and assuming the $26,000 car we're comparing against can actually achieve 30 mpg in LA traffic since that's the baseline of my previous analysis:
The premium paid by the owner for the Volt drivetrain is $7,000. The Volt driver is saving about $4.90 per 100 miles driven per my previous analysis. He would have to drive the Volt over 140,000 miles in order to break even, assuming identical maintenance costs and that the cost ratio between gasoline and the electric utility rate stays the same.
CharlieDigital
Banned
Nerevar said:
That's like saying Microsoft shouldn't have even bothered with the original XBOX or XBOX360 because they were losing money on every unit (and the entire division was hemorrhaging cash for years).
Or making the argument that you should buy a Wii because it's cheaper than an 360.
You want to be in the market? You have to start out somewhere and, in some cases, you'll be losing money from the get-go until you refine the technologies and processes to make production more efficient (or find other ways to make that money back).
I would imagine that the early adopters for something like this are worried less about getting their money back on gas savings and more about other things like trying to get our country off a dependence on oil, supporting new technology, having the new cool car to show off in front of their friends, etc.DiatribeEQ said:
Standard technology pricing curve. Make it expensive at first to take advantage of the early adopters, then lower it from there.
CharlieDigital said:
I don't disagree with this, but that assumes you're disrupting the market and building something that has long-term growth potential; but everyone in this thread acknowledges that long-term we need to transition to EVs or some other technology (with some people throwing dates out there like 2025 or so). Do you really think the technology in the Volt is going to last for 30 years or more? I think that's a bit optimistic. GM even admitted in a CNN article today that their current projections don't have them making money on the car until the third generation; and that doesn't even count recouping their initial $700 mil+ investment. They also have no plans of putting the hybrid drivetrain in any of their other models. What's the point?
Right. I'm not sure why people don't seem to grasp this. I get their point, but obviously some people justify paying more for sports cars and luxury cars when they aren't "worth" it from a value perspective.soundahfekz said:
I'm even somewhat guilty of this, I bought a Malibu, but could have saved myself several thousand dollars by getting a Cobalt, which would gotten me to where I need to go just as well as the Malibu. I didn't need a midsize car. I just liked the Malibu, and could afford it, so I bought it.
The Volt is much more technologically advanced than the Cobalt or even the Cruze and Malibu, and it costs more. That's how things work. A Corvette is faster, but it's more expensive and seats fewer people. Why buy a Corvette? Luxury cars are without fail more expensive than similarly sized non-luxury cars.
Why buy a luxury car? Why buy a sports car? Why buy a Volt?
Because you like it enough to justify spending that much money.
turnbuckle
Member
CharlieDigital said:
I was gonna make the video game analogy myself.
Or any consumer electronics or any other product, really.
To some people, there's an inherent value in buying into the first generation of this technology. Just like it's not objectively economically sound to buy a PS3 at $600 or a sound system that costs a grand or more, or buying dual $400 video cards to get a few extra frames per second, or paying for Xbox Live, or spending $300 on jeans, etc. etc. There are cheaper alternatives to everything, and from a strict cost/benefit analysis they may make more sense, but so long as people have good information and still decide to pay a premium I don't understand others telling folks how to spend their money.
Evlar said:
the only real reports we have are this one, and ones from C&D and Popular Mechanics. We'll see once it gets in more people's hands.
The EV just needs an infrastructure so when you stop at a store or a gas station you can either swap batteries or get an 80% charge in 5-10 minutes. That kind of solves the range issues once an EV can make 100-150 REAL miles (the Leaf will not be getting 100 real miles)
This is a good idea. The only problem I can think of in terms of swapping batteries is that different sized cars (and trucks) would have greatly different levels of power consumption. One size wouldn't really fit all. Unless you could could put two in an SUV or something.gcubed said:
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
gcubed said:
And I still think it needs to go up to at least 250 real miles. 100-150 still feels low to me even if you can get a battery swap or recharge in 10 minutes.
Who would want to stop every 125 miles to recharge their battery and paying for that service or energy that often?
ascii42 said:
yeah, the swapping would require the industry to standardize on batteries and connectors, so thats probably less likely then getting a halfway decent infrastructure to allow for quick charges at stores/restaurants/gas stations
mckmas8808 said:
you are thinking too much and trying to compare it to a gasoline engine. 150 miles would cover over 90 percent of the use and population. The only time you would have an issue would be on long trips. We need to get out of the "drive 300 miles and refill" mindset and into the "i can refill every single night" mindset.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
HyperionX said:
Well GM does have $12 Billion in cash on hand now since the bankruptcy ended. I thought MS had the same amount of cash on hand...
gcubed said:
I have the right mindset. And that mindset asks if I want to drive from Richmond, Va to Charlotte, NC you'd have to drive 311 miles. I personally wouldn't want to pay 3 times in order to recharge my batteries unless it's super quick and super cheap.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
gcubed said:
I see what you are saying. Now it would matter if I'm going to another state that charges more for their electricity than it does at my house. But if you are within the state I guess it wouldn't matter.
It would just be a slight inconvenience to stop a few more times.
mckmas8808 said:
they shouldn't stop trying to make the range longer, but there is going to be a sweet spot between size, weight, capacity and charge time and i think setting it arbitrarily at the gasoline engine watermark of 300 miles is an artificial limitation that i dont think needs to be met.
and as for different prices, i have 3 gas stations in 3 miles of my house that are all different prices...
biggersmaller
Banned
I have no problem with people wasting money on excess. Hell, this is America after all. But this isn't the debate of whether or not a PS3 is worth owning vs a Wii vs Alienware.
No. And I say this with all sincerity. We all have a vested interest in this overpriced abomination that is still being sold for a loss by a company that has promised the next Prius, and delivered the next Edsel.
No. And I say this with all sincerity. We all have a vested interest in this overpriced abomination that is still being sold for a loss by a company that has promised the next Prius, and delivered the next Edsel.
Like the Saturn Flextreme?Fatalah said:
Saturn should be reintroduced as a electric-only car line.
I want the innovative Saturn of the 90's back goshdarnit! Polymer paneeeeeeeeeellllsss!
Looks like it had doors like the SC and the Ion. Honestly I wish more coupes had doors like that.
turnbuckle
Member
biggersmaller said:
So what is your objection?
The next Edsel? A bit premature to proclaim that don't ya think?
It's not like the Prius was expected to be such a success initially either. There's a ton of buzz about the Volt - both good and bad. I think it's a good idea to give a year or two before determining if it's a failure. If it is, hopefully there'll be lessons learned that can be applied to other cars. If it's a success, hopefully it'll show that there's a real demand for this type of vehicle which will motivate competitors to step up their game even further.
I'm excited for the Volt, but even if I had the ability to buy one out of the gate it's still something I'm more comfortable waiting a couple of years for so the tech can mature just a little bit more. Whether it ultimately is a success or a failure, GM's become an interesting car company again. Thank you for your contribution, my fellow taxpayer
YuriLowell
Member
Mashing said:
Im sorry. How old are you?
I'd like to see how these things hold up over the course of normal ownership, being driven by normal people. I don't trust GM after making junk cars for decades, and I certainly don't trust anything that's "techy" from them in the slightest. Did they at least upgrade the interior plastics in this model so it doesn't feel like it was made from melted down "army men" and at least put some quality paint on these things? Even my friend who has been a die-hard GM fan for his entire life finally said he had it when his going on 2 year old Vette with 7k miles on it now has been in the garage 7 times this past year for stupid things.
CharlieDigital
Banned
Some info on the Prius PHEV: http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/18/prius-phev-preview-three-days-in-plug-in-paradise/
Thoughts:
1) Batteries are still a problem; energy density needs to increase before pure EVs are viable. Too big and too heavy. Not to mention ridiculously expensive.
2) Prius is on the 4th generation already. Let's give GM some slack here.
3) What was all that fuss about the gas engine cutting over once it reached 70mph?
We'll get this out of the way early: the Prius PHEV is still very much a prototype, not available for sale and not destined for widespread availability for another year or so. Despite that, the car we tested is remarkably polished and certainly looks like something that rolled straight off a production line -- largely because it's mostly a fourth-generation Prius. Still, some extensive modification was required to carve out room for a considerably larger, considerably heavier (by some 300lbs) lithium-ion battery pack.
This pack receives the juice coming in through the plug on the front-left fender of the car, which comes with an adapter you can plug into a standard 110 or 220 outlet. At 110 it'll take three hours to top of the cells, half that at 220 and, while 440 volt charging is not supported yet, it's expected to be there by the car's release, and expected to take less than 45 minutes.
What do you get for that? Somewhere south of 14 miles worth of range operating on pure, sweet electricity -- assuming you can keep it under 62mph, at which speed the gasoline engine spins up to help things along. Floor it and that internal combustion engine will also spin up, but surprisingly that's not really necessary.
This pack receives the juice coming in through the plug on the front-left fender of the car, which comes with an adapter you can plug into a standard 110 or 220 outlet. At 110 it'll take three hours to top of the cells, half that at 220 and, while 440 volt charging is not supported yet, it's expected to be there by the car's release, and expected to take less than 45 minutes.
What do you get for that? Somewhere south of 14 miles worth of range operating on pure, sweet electricity -- assuming you can keep it under 62mph, at which speed the gasoline engine spins up to help things along. Floor it and that internal combustion engine will also spin up, but surprisingly that's not really necessary.
Thoughts:
1) Batteries are still a problem; energy density needs to increase before pure EVs are viable. Too big and too heavy. Not to mention ridiculously expensive.
2) Prius is on the 4th generation already. Let's give GM some slack here.
3) What was all that fuss about the gas engine cutting over once it reached 70mph?
Dreams-Visions
Member
boo birds booing.CharlieDigital said:
haters will pretend this Toyota story never existed.
CharlieDigital
Banned
Dreams-Visions said:
I really wish the haters would pop back in here (or maybe they're here, just too busy eating crow).
AndyD said:
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157557,00.html
Doesn't seem to be progressive based on income.
MetalAlien
Banned
These guys are building this stuff all wrong. Build a Hybrid truck that can haul 15,000lbs and America will buy it even if it's 80 grand. They are nearly spending that now on built trucks.
YuriLowell
Member
ascii42 said:
Buicks are considered old peoples cars.
CharlieDigital
Banned
turnbuckle
Member
YuriLowell said:
I'm sorry, how old are you?
soundahfekz
Member
Damn with the new toyota info this thread got silent as hell. Haters :lol
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
CharlieDigital said:
Dat Volt is starting to look quite good isn't it? :lol And Chevy is doing it a year earlier with 3 times the performance.
Dreams-Visions said:
christ guys, i dont think anyone was arguing the fact that the gas engine cuts over, people were arguing the fact that GM repeatedly said the gas engine will NOT DRIVE THE WHEELS. Last time i checked i dont think Toyota ever mentioned that their gas engine wasn't ever going to drive the wheels. Get off this bullet point already because you keep fucking it up.
90mpg for 8k cheaper i'll take... but then again, we dont have any real comparisons on either of these cars.
CharlieDigital
Banned
gcubed said:
Let's see where the price of the Volt is in 1 year as well. For the time being, you're making apples to oranges comparisons. Won't be available for a year. Only ~14mi. on electric only. And comparing 4th gen. technology to a 1st gen. technology.
Full of fail.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
CharlieDigital said:
Plus the fact that we don't even know if the Volt will or won't have better tech overall than the Prius. We have to wait until at least 2012 before we can make a valid comparison.
CharlieDigital said:
yes, we will see when its out at the same time. I'm just looking at what i see on a spec sheet and could give a shit about what gen the technology is.
mckmas8808 said:
i'm pretty sure the volt has better tech then the prius since the prius they are testing appears to just be their hybrid with a larger battery pack to facilitate a very very short range of EV only driving.
GM is going the route of commuting full EV and ability to use the car 24/7 without worry whereas toyota seems to be just throwing some EV functionality in there for very short trips and to extend their efficiency.
CharlieDigital
Banned
gcubed said:
So, out of curiosity, aside from price, where on paper is the Prius better than the Volt?
turnbuckle
Member
CharlieDigital said:
I agree the Volt is impressive for it being in its first generation, but people looking to buy a car today are only able to choose what's available now. The Volt won't be an exceptional value for most people during the first year although I think a lot of interested buyers are already aware of that. But what alternative do critics have but to compare it to what else is readily available?
I know I'm quoting a discussion about a Prius that isn't on the market now, but plenty of hype for the Volt has been built upon comparing it to other available cars despite it not being on the market either.
CharlieDigital
Banned
turnbuckle said:
The only reason I bring this up in discussion is relevant to the folks saying that GM fucked it up or GM dropped the ball.
I understand that the consumer angle is different, but from a pure business/technology perspective, GM has to start somewhere. That's the only relevance of this point. Each iteration, we'll see better technology and lower costs and it would be foolish to say that GM shouldn't have undertaken this endeavor because they didn't beat X.
CharlieDigital said:
there is no "aside from price"
seeing your post right above mine i think we are arguing from two different angles. You're arguing from the technology perspective, i'm arguing from the consumer perspective.
As i said in my edited post above to include the response to mckmas, the volt is definitely technologically superior (and i would assume a bit more responsive of a car to drive... hopefully)
THEY LIE!!!gcubed said:
Anyway ~40 miles on electric can be a reasonable amount for daily commute, at least for me. 14 miles is not. No matter what the anyone in this thread says, Chevy has created a vehicle that can be an all electric daily driver for a good amount of people with the added benefit of being capable of going long distances if necessary. Thats something both the Leaf and the PHEV Pruis can't yet match.
CharlieDigital
Banned
gcubed said:
Sure there is.
But let's assume that you're right. The Volt will take you further on in electric only mode. The Volt has -- with only one reference point, admittedly -- higher real world MPG. The Volt has more cachet (for now). The Volt, depending on taste, has a nicer interior. You're getting more for your money anyways.
gcubed said:
Both perspectives matter. Even Toyota had a first generation Prius that wasn't exactly selling like hotcakes. The technology matters because the engineering experience matters to the company.
Dreams-Visions
Member
yea, but that idea ended some time ago with the Enclave. point was made with an exclamation point with the release of the new LaCrosse and the...whatever the other car that just launched is.YuriLowell said:
ya gotta keep up, brah.
Dreams-Visions
Member
lol. guess you'll never drive better than affordable cars because "aside from price", most quasi-luxury cars from Lexus, Infiniti, MB, BMW, etc. really represent diminishing returns.gcubed said:
right? RIGHT?
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