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[stan423321]

This analogy is completely irrelevant when referring to children who were born in a country, grew up there and speak the language.

Yup, because I'm answering to the post in particular and not the thread topic.

If your born and raised in Denmark you are DANISH!

So would you settle for "you are a part of Danish culture" then - which I find completely fine - or would you argue that someone raised in a cellar in Valby by Spanish monks is Danish?

 

[Dougald]

Yup, because I'm answering to the post in particular and not the thread topicc.

You were answering to my post with a nonsensical argument. My post was referring to the thread topic.

How about you answer my question?

 

[cybamerc]

How many generations does someone's ancestry in the country have to go back before you'd consider them culturally Danish?

To be culturally Danish, or anything else, you have to embrace the culture. Having been born in the country does not guarantee that.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

What's Denmark like for people who aren't white?

Here you go:

"IMMIGRANTS REFUSE TO INTEGRATE!"

Immigrant: I am born here I feel Danish.

"NO YOU ARE NOT DANISH"

 

[Dragon Puncher]

It is important to note that this doesn't have any juridical effects at all. If is essentially a way to appease bigots, using the same shitty language towards immigrants that the Danish People's Party have used for years. This time it's just directly in a parliamentary statement (not a law).

Personally I find the approve pretty idiotic. The Danish People's Party see racial divide as a huge problem, but continue to make decisions and pressure government in ways that will only further that divide.

 

[Dougald]

To be culturally Danish, or anything else, you have to embrace the culture. Having been born in the country does not guarantee that.

So how do you propose make that determination? Who sets the definition of the culture? Is it fluid?

 

[d00d3n]

I don't get it. Surely they are still Danish citizens and have a Danish passport. So what kind of law have they actually implemented and for what use - besides looking like assholes?

It is a public declaration/statement. As bad as the statement is, there is no underlying draconian law (yet).

 

[stan423321]

You were answering to my post with a nonsensical argument. My post was referring to the thread topic.

How about you answer my question?

Your post applied a label-based argument, therefore it was flawed in my opinion, which I needed to point out.

A person can be a by-arrival immigrant and become a part of host nation's culture depending on their participation in host nation specific cultural customs, same as with being a country/town/city person. Ancestry doesn't directly affect this. Also, it's a spectrum.

So how do you propose make that determination? Who sets the definition of the culture? Is it fluid?

Don't if it's not obvious, each for their own, yes.

 

[Breakage]

Here you go:

Never knew Denmark had a race problem since it has a high standard of living and ranks highly in various national performance metrics.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

To be culturally Danish, or anything else, you have to embrace the culture. Having been born in the country does not guarantee that.

Ah, but who judges if they have adopted enough of the culture? Do they need to abandon garments, religion, language and heritage to appease their judges? Surely being schooled and civic interactions within Denmark give a level of integration?

Most importantly: would the critics prefer they married white Danes and how do you think that would make those critics feel? I feel they wouldn't like it. lol. There is no winning against racist thinking because it's contradictory and selfish.

 

[Dougald]

Your post applied a label-based argument, therefore it was flawed in my opinion, which I needed to point out.

A person can be a by-arrival immigrant and become a part of host nation's culture depending on their participation in host nation specific cultural customs, same as with being a country/town/city person. Ancestry doesn't directly affect this. Also, it's a spectrum.

Frankly, people who assume children of immigrants cannot be considered from the nation of their birth are bigots. If you're upset I may have inferred you to be a bigot, I don't know what to say. I stand by it.

 

[cybamerc]

So how do you propose make that determination? Who sets the definition of the culture? Is it fluid?

Culture is indeed fluid. It entails different things to different people making it hard to define. However, in spite of all our differences Denmark is a very homogenous culture which means that it is quite easy to stand out - for both good and bad.

I think the open debates about what it means to be Danish is a good thing - and a very Danish thing, actually. It allows people to vent and it hopefully gives outsiders an better understanding of the society. In many other places issues related to immigration are not addressed causing frustration among certain groups in the populace and giving rise to political parties much worse than the Danish People's Party.

 

[Lime]

Ethnonationalism aka racism at its worst

Anyone defending this is just falling for racist dog whistles

 

[Boney]

Juris Solis is like what the nation state is founded on.

What kind of nonsense is this

 

[Lime]

Thread title should be amended: the law is stating that "non-western immigrants" (read: brown and black) cannot be considered Danish, while "western" (read: white) can.

It is clearly racism.

 

[Contica]

People don't seem to understand that this is a really big problem.
A lot of Scandinavian countries have this, where people born in those countries are never considered countrymen, simply because their parents were immigrants. It's racist as hell. It's always been happening, and it is a big factor encouraging recruitment for terrorists.

My suspicion is that a lot of these countries changed their tune around after WWII when the US and other economically powerful countries decided to push for extending and strengthening human rights and immigration laws. But now that is no longer necessary, they don't have to hide it any longer.

I don't know if you're from scandinavia or not, but you come across as incredibly ignorant about scandinavian society.

Additionally you keep saying "a lot of these countries". I hope you are aware there are only three countries in Scandinavia. Norway, Sweden and Denmark. That's not a lot.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

As someone who wasn't even born in Sweden but feels 100% Swedish this is complete and utter bullshit. My inner monologue is in Swedish even though I am fluent in four languages. That makes me Swedish. Simple as that. Fuck these nazi fucks invading our governments.

We all judge each other. Keep in mind that the distinction between nationality and citizenship has no practical meaning. If you are a citizen you have the same rights as others. Even if you are a brown-skinned salafist who does not speak the language.

Let us please not assume it will stay this way.

On the comment about "embracing the culture" at least here in Sweden it literally means nothing. So uh... I eat turkish kebab? Listen to American music produced by Swedish producers and watch Netflix? The only social constant in this country is to avoid speaking to strangers to avoid awkwardness. Very few of my "ethnic Swedish" friends give a single shit about national traditions. Does that mean they are not embracing the culture and thus are not Swedish either or do they get a free pass simply because they were born here? I don't get it.

 

[cybamerc]

Ah, but who judges if they have adopted enough of the culture?

We all judge each other. Keep in mind that the distinction between nationality and citizenship has no practical meaning. If you are a citizen you have the same rights as others. Even if you are a brown-skinned salafist who does not speak the language.

 

[stan423321]

Frankly, people who assume children of immigrants cannot be considered from the nation of their birth are bigots. If you're upset I may have inferred you to be a bigot, I don't know what to say. I stand by it.

They can, they just don't have to, in particular if they don't want to. Do with that statement of mine what you wish.

 

[SURGEdude]

To be culturally Danish, or anything else, you have to embrace the culture. Having been born in the country does not guarantee that.

This comment is interesting. As an American I've always take jus soli citizenship as unquestionable. But I suppose that's because at least in principle the United States is self-aware of its national identity as fluid and driven by those who arrive. Afterall, unlike most of the world, for good and bad, there is no deeply rooted American culture.

Clapping and fat jokes aside Americans have historically accepted 2nd generation (white) people as one of "us" for a long time. An absence of a static national identity seems conducive to that.

That lack of identity can be a strength but it also is a conduit for easy divisions between people based on ethnicity or any other clear delineation. A much shallower well of national character from which to draw opposition to a disgusting person like Trump makes radical shifts like his rise occur more quickly.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

We all judge each other. Keep in mind that the distinction between nationality and citizenship has no practical meaning. If you are a citizen you have the same rights as others. Even if you are a brown-skinned salafist who does not speak the language.

True. But how can you have pride in your nation if the majority insists on emphasizing that you are an outsider and pushing you away? Not all immigrants and immigrant children are salafists who do not speak the language. Many are integrated to the point where pigment is the only appreciable difference. Surely you can see that this hurts society more than heals?

 

[Dougald]

They can, they just don't have to, in particular if they don't want to. Do with that statement of mine what you wish.

Oh, I know exactly what you're implying. I believe I've made my feelings clear, good day.

 

[Lime]

They can, they just don't have to, in particular if they don't want to. Do with that statement of mine what you wish.

Funny how this only applies to 'non-Western' immigrants

Denmark is so fucking racist and it's filled with an acceptance of a racist status quo.

 

[cybamerc]

But I suppose that's because at least in principle the United States is self-aware of its national identity as fluid and driven by those who arrive. Afterall, unlike most of the world, for good and bad, there is no deeply rooted American culture.

The US is considered a melting pot but it is actually a fairly recent development. Just 90 years ago the US had a nearly 90% white population. I imagine that the US was also considerably more homogenous from a cultural perspective back then. The influx of immigrants to the US has not been evenly spread out which is why you still have groups of white people whose understanding of what it means to be American is quite different from yours.

 

[kess]

Haha they are just trolling you dumb liberals

Why do you people hate democracy








/s

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

I don't know if you're from scandinavia or not, but you come across as incredibly ignorant about scandinavian society.

Additionally you keep saying "a lot of these countries". I hope you are aware there are only three countries in Scandinavia. Norway, Sweden and Denmark. That's not a lot.

Okay. All of these three countries.
Does that make you feel better.

 

[MKIL65]

Denmark is so fucking racist and it's filled with an acceptance of a racist status quo.

It really is. I know there are danish posters here myself, and I find it very pointless to argue with them.

They've embraced their inhumanity, they don't feel any shame voicing their ''opinion.''

I've given up honestly. Call me a terrorist, I'm pretty much numb to it at this point.

 

[Lime]

It really is. I know there are danish posters here myself, and I find it very pointless to argue with them.

They've embraced their inhumanity, they don't feel any shame voicing their ''opinion.''

I've given up honestly. Call me a terrorist, I'm pretty much numb to it at this point.

The fault also lies with the entire public discourse where mainstream media like DR, TV2, Politiken, JP, Berlingske, even Information, have completely lost or have always been unable to identify when someone is saying racist shit, so these news media adopt the same dog-whistle racism that the racist right has been good at normalizing in the last 20 years.

This means that the general discourse is always being produced on racist premises because the dog-whistle racism is so ingrained and reinforced as the operating principle of all discussions about so-called 'immigrants'.

After this news, I am not sure why my friends aren't out there protesting in the streets based on this heinous legislation.

 

[SURGEdude]

The US is considered a melting pot but it is actually a fairly recent development. Just 90 years ago the US had a nearly 90% white population. I imagine that the US was also considerably more homogenous from a cultural perspective back then. The influx of immigrants to the US has not been evenly spread out which is why you still have groups of white people whose understanding of what it means to be American is quite different from yours.

Absolutely true. That's why I made sure to point out the distinction with white people. And the statement wasn't an an endorsement of the way the US has handled immigrants of any stripe. The reason I specified 2nd generation is because no matter the era 1st generation Americans have faced enormous hatred and vilification.

My point was more of an attempted explanation of why, in theory, birthright citizenship was formulated and deemed important enough to memorialize in a constitution amendment here.

 

[cybamerc]

True. But how can you have pride in your nation if the majority insists on emphasizing that you are an outsider and pushing you away? Not all immigrants and immigrant children are salafists who do not speak the language. Many are integrated to the point where pigment is the only appreciable difference. Surely you can see that this hurts society more than heals?

The color of people's skin is really not an issue in Denmark. Don't get me wrong. Of course we have racists here as well but for most people skincolor is not the problem. Culture, however, is a huge issue in Denmark and for the most part it's really about muslims. Some people like to think of muslims as a race giving them an excuse to call Denmark a racist country when the issue is really xenophobia.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

To be culturally Danish, or anything else, you have to embrace the culture. Having been born in the country does not guarantee that.

What does it actually mean to "embrace the culture"? Practically speaking, how do you determine if somebody has embraced Danish culture?

 

[Fantastapotamus]

That will help them immigrate. Cool
/s

To be culturally Danish, or anything else, you have to embrace the culture. Having been born in the country does not guarantee that.

I have never yodeled in my life, never wore a lederhose and don't really ski a lot. Am I still an Austrian?

 

[GHG]

This makes no fucking sense?

So what happens if these children stay in Denmark and then go on to have kids of their own? Will those children be allowed to be Danish?

 

[cybamerc]

After this news, I am not sure why my friends aren't out there protesting in the streets based on this heinous legislation.

It's not legislation.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

According to some definitions that are being thrown around I might also be German or Swiss. I'll call Merkel tomorrow and ask for my new passport.
I also really like Pizza, does that make me Italian? I now in northern Italy they speak German so I should still qualify, right?

 

[cybamerc]

What does it actually mean to "embrace the culture"? Practically speaking, how do you determine if somebody has embraced Danish culture?

It means different things to different people. There is no practical way of determining if people have embraced a culture. It's also not needed to become a citizen and gain the same rights as others. But as I said in another post, people judge each other all the time. If you want other people to like you, you usually have to make an effort. Not everyone does that.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

According to some definitions that are being thrown around I might also be German or Swiss. I'll call Merkel tomorrow and ask for my new passport.
I also really like Pizza, does that make me Italian? I now in northern Italy they speak German so I should still qualify, right?

How the fuck would you get that from a thread regarding the SONS AND DAUGHTERS of immigrants?

 

[stan423321]

Oh, I know exactly what you're implying. I believe I've made my feelings clear, good day.

Huh?

What does it actually mean to "embrace the culture"? Practically speaking, how do you determine if somebody has embraced Danish culture?

Practically speaking, you shouldn't need to in the first place. Citizenship law should be, in principle, a separate matter, and after that all you're left with is a variable which will probably affect one's socialization status but doesn't need to be consciously recognized.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

How the fuck would you get that from a thread regarding the SONS AND DAUGHTERS of immigrants?

Well because apparently

To be culturally Danish, or anything else, you have to embrace the culture. Having been born in the country does not guarantee that.

being born in a country doesn't count, you have to "embrace the culture". So if I "embrace" German culture, does that make me culturally German "or anything else"?

 

[Ucchedavāda]

This makes no fucking sense?

So what happens if these children stay in Denmark and then go on to have kids of their own? Will those children be allowed to be Danish?

Nothing happens as no legislation has been passed. The source of this controversy is a statement of intent by the current government, regarding ghettos and regarding immigration, in which a distinction is drawn between Danes on one hand and immigrants and children of immigrants (from non-western countries) on the other.

It means different things to different people. There is no practical way of determining if people have embraced a culture. It's also not needed to become a citizen and gain the same rights as others. But as I said in another post, people judge each other all the time. If you want other people to like you, you usually have to make an effort. Not everyone does that.

In that case, your previous statement boils down to saying that you are Danish when somebody calls you Danish, based on their subjective understanding of what being Danish means, except that somebody else can equally well say that you are not Danish, based on their definition of the term. It is entirely vacuous. And I am not sure what being liked has to do with any of this, as that is surely orthogonal to being Danish, unless I am to understand that you, personally, only consider people that you like to be Danish.

 

[Contica]

Okay. All of these three countries.
Does that make you feel better.

Yes, much better. My emotional well being is 100% dependent on the clarity of people's words, so it is much better now.

 

[Elchele]

wow this is pure racism.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Well because apparently



being born in a country doesn't count, you have to "embrace the culture". So if I "embrace" German culture, does that make me culturally German "or anything else"?

Ah, sorry, misunderstood you then mate

 

[Lime]

I have to repeat, that the thread title is lacking information - this thing only applies to so-called non-Western immigrants. (aka primarily brown and black people)

It's not legislation.

Institutionalization then.

It's clearly racism no matter what way you look at it.

 

[MKIL65]

If you want other people to like you, you usually have to make an effort. Not everyone does that.

Ah, the classic ''victim blaming''

That's actually a racist mentality to have, did you know that?

 

[Skyzard]

Thread title should be amended: the law is stating that "non-western immigrants" (read: brown and black) cannot be considered Danish, while "western" (read: white) can.

It is clearly racism.

Lol, what a disgrace.

 

[CadetMahoney]

So basically this doesn't go on any government form or database? Trying to understand what this is if it doesn't affect anything legal status wise or acquiring citizenship.

Perhaps a first step to doing so I suppose. Harder to get citizenship down the line is the aim.

Well I'm pretty sure it won't stop at this.

That's what I'm thinking.

 

[Nemesis121]

Trump's stupidity is spreading to the rest of the world..

 

[Principate]

Trump's stupidity is spreading to the rest of the world..

Spreading? Breh you be extremely naive to think it wasn't there from the start. How do you think people like trump get elected in the first place.

 

[McNum]

What does it actually mean to "embrace the culture"? Practically speaking, how do you determine if somebody has embraced Danish culture?

I don't think you can. It's much easier to point out when someone has not, but that's really unfair to immigrants that just even one mistake in a frankly bizarre culture from an outside perspective means you are now "the other".

Because Danish culture is weird... I mean the basics of speaking the language, respecting traditions, and respecting the laws should be easy enough to keep if you're willing to learn. Even if Danish as a language can have challenges, especially in pronunciation. Like it was made to be full of shibboleths and words that are not pronounced at all what they look like.

But even if you got all that perfectly, there are so many little things that are impossible to know until you violated it and thus exposed yourself as "the other". The infamous Jantelov being the obvious one to trip over, because it makes no sense, yet everyone does it. In short it means "Don't think you're people. You're not. You're not special, you're just another part of the whole. You're not better than anyone." Yeah... Good luck with that one if you're immigrating to Denmark from a culture where being proud of your accomplishments is seen as a virtue. If you're good at something that others are not, then fuck you. You're special and we hate you. Do note that this is not a racial hate as such... we hate everyone who thinks they're special.

You can probably see how that is trouble when someone immigrates with a different culture and actually is special and sticks out from the herd. And if they dare to be proud of that, then that's that for a good first impression. With both parties hating the other for reasons that seem obvious to themselves, but utterly alien to the other. Because Danes can be really, really weird like that.

Denmark is such a paradoxical society sometimes. I'm not making any excuses for this proclamation, I find it as disturbing as anyone else here. But, I do understand it, and that bothers me. This whole "What does it mean to be Danish?" debate is just... yeah. In theory, it would actually be nice to have that put into words, but the people who asking the question should not be the ones running this. Besides, if being Danish gets defined as being special, we're going to have to hate ourselves, too. Maybe we already do.