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[dogmaan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21337444

If this is true, it's insane behavior, it's the equivalent of pointing a cocked and loaded gun at someone.

If the US or Japanese navy were to do the same, I imagine the PLAN (Navy) response would not be as measured

 

[sturmdogg]

Seems to me like they're really spoiling for a fight.

Either that or someone mislabeled the fire-control radar.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

This is the sort of shit North Korea would pull.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

Aren't these islands empty? And even if someone claims them its gonna be used like....never

 

[Harlock]

Aren't these islands empty? And even if someone claims them its gonna be used like....never

Oil, control, pride. Like all the other wars.

Countries are like male grown teenagers fighting among themselves.

 

[questionmark]

Aren't these islands empty? And even if someone claims them its gonna be used like....never

Whoever has the islands has claim over the waters surrounding the islands. There is oil or gas (or both, can't remember) to be found in the sea there.

 

[Ushojax]

Oil, control, pride. Like all the other wars.

Countries are like male grown teenagers fighting among themselves.

Humans are animals, plain and simple.

 

[tino]

Its a bluffing war, from both sides. Better get used to it.

 

[Synth_floyd]

Japan is lucky that we live in an age of the UN and one in which land grab wars are condemned by the world. If not, China would just take them and win the war if there was one.

 

[dogmaan]

Its a bluffing war, from both sides. Better get used to it.

Thing is, from the point of view of the Japanese crew, they have no way of knowing whether or not they are being locked onto for shits and giggles, or if a high speed anti-ship missile is now screaming towards their ship at mach-2+, as the Fire Control Radar on the PLAN ship probably doesn't change modes when a missile is fired, the first warning they would have is when the radar on the Japanese vessel picks up the incoming missile, or if the seeker on the missile is Active Radar Homing, when it goes active the Electronic Warfare System on the Japanese vessel will detect it, in both cases, that could be seconds before impact.

It's a very dangerous game the PLAN are playing.

 

[Whiteshirt]

Japan is lucky that we live in an age of the UN and one in which land grab wars are condemned by the world. If not, China would just take them and win the war if there was one.

You under estimate the Japanese military. For a "self defence force", its ridiculously advanced.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Japan is lucky that we live in an age of the UN and one in which land grab wars are condemned by the world. If not, China would just take them and win the war if there was one.

If it was that easy China would have had boots on the ground in the islands much like they are doing in the south china sea, but it is not that easy. China knows that if there is a war it will be fought out in the oceans and that is a war they cannot win, most they can do is hope for a stalemate.

 

[AAequal]

You under estimate the Japanese military. For a "self defence force", its ridiculously advanced.

Chinese military isn't Russian military. They have new equipment and plenty of it. If it would be all out war just between the two nations I really doubt Japans chances. It's hard to argue with numbers, Chinese military is huge from manpower to air-force.

 

[genjiZERO]

Japan is lucky that we live in an age of the UN and one in which land grab wars are condemned by the world. If not, China would just take them and win the war if there was one.

Japan easily has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. The "Self Defence Force" is a term of art.

 

[2MF]

I have read several times that locking on a target like this is often considered an act of war in itself.

 

[shira]

You under estimate the Japanese military. For a "self defence force", its ridiculously advanced.

This works, doesn't it.

 

[Bregor]

This works, doesn't it.

No.

 

[Forsete]

I have read several times that locking on a target like this is often considered an act of war in itself.

Then Sweden would have declared war on Russia several times. Even the US.

In 1981 the coastal artillery locked on Soviet ships heading twoards our territorial water attempting to "rescue" a stranded sub (S-363). Luckily they backed off.

+ Multiple occasions with fighters vs. fighters (one soviet fighter crashed in the Baltic sea after chasing a Swedish fighter).

I read that a fighter even locked onto a US bomber flying over our airspace. The US Air-force later sent a letter of congratulations to the pilot who managed to lock on to the bomber (apparently the first time that happened).. Though one wonders how they knew who the pilot was? That was probably the point.

 

[Whiteshirt]

Chinese military isn't Russian military. They have new equipment and plenty of it. If it would be all out war just between the two nations I really doubt Japans chances. It's hard to argue with numbers, Chinese military is huge from manpower to air-force.

The Japanese navy and air force is freaking huge and cutting edge. Again: "self defence force" is a complete misnomer. They haven't got the second largest navy in Asia for no reason.

Then you've got a whole web of treaties and whatnot if an all our war does happen (it won't, there's nothing to gain by actually using the toys). Unless you're assuming everyone is going to renege on their promises.

Thing is, from the point of view of the Japanese crew, they have no way of knowing whether or not they are being locked onto for shits and giggles, or if a high speed anti-ship missile is now screaming towards their ship at mach-2+, as the Fire Control Radar on the PLAN ship probably doesn't change modes when a missile is fired, the first warning they would have is when the radar on the Japanese vessel picks up the incoming missile, or if the seeker on the missile is Active Radar Homing, when it goes active the Electronic Warfare System on the Japanese vessel will detect it, in both cases, that could be seconds before impact.

It's a very dangerous game the PLAN are playing.

China's big honchos frequently lose perspective on their own importance in the world and say extremely stupid things. Just recently you had some Chinese Colonel tell Julia Gillard (the prime minister of Australia) to be a docile lamb in regards to China's land disputes around Asia. Which is strange because I'm pretty sure Australia has said and done nothing. The same guy was also throwing around hypothetical situations where China might be able to fire nukes at Japan. He seemed completely ignorant that any aggressive action against South East Asia pretty much sets off a chain reaction of treaties (ANZUS, NATO, FPDA, etc.) but he doesn't care (or know) about that.

Its huge sabre rattling. I doubt a war is even profitable for the Chinese. They just need excuses to justify their existence and all of that spending. Its handy for the Japanese too, gets the government to hand cash to local industry to build more useless shit designed to kill people.

 

[PS3GamerKyle]

I read that a fighter even locked onto a US bomber flying over our airspace. The US Air-force later sent a letter of congratulations to the pilot who managed to lock on to the bomber (apparently the first time that happened).. Though one wonders how they knew who the pilot was? That was probably the point.

Really? That's really fascinating.

 

[BeerSnob]

Aren't we still obliged to assist Japan if they are attacked? This seems like a very risky economic move for China as it will be swallowed whole by it's people if it's economy collapses. What the hell is China thinking?

 

[Madness]

They're actually testing global resolve and influence. How does the world respond? How does the US respond etc.

They're making a huge mistake antagonizing Japan. Already their leaders have become "hawkish". You could start to see the "rising sun" flag be out more and more in citizens hands.

Japan devotes very little of it's GDP to military. Were they to kick it up to NATO recommended levels or global power levels, you'd see them easily spend around $70-$100 billion plus a year.

Also, factor in Japan is the world's leading nuclear energy producer, theoretically, they have enough enriched uranium and technical knowhow to build 1000 nukes in a month if they wanted to, they won't though.

China is on a very dangerous path these days. See, people claim they are a superpower, but they are not even close. A superpower is the world's eminent military, political, economic and cultural power. China isn't any of these things.

Politically, their closest allies are North Korea, Pakistan, Iran and Sudan.

Militarily, they are large and modernizing, but they have just put their first aircraft carrier through sea trials. It's an old 1980's Soviet-vessel. It still has not achieved the ability to manufacture it's own jet engines and get's them from Russia. China also has zero forward operating bases.

Economically, they are rising, but only at the behest of the rest of the world. It's nice to thump chests and burn Toyota's, quite another to have Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba, Sharp, NEC, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Fujitsu, Honda, Nissan, Mazda and many more corporations pull out China and lay off it's workforce. China is still only an export/manufacture based economy, it's trying very hard to turn itself into an industrial and technology based economy, but it'll be tough. How much will global companies and firms invest in China if it goes to war with Japan?

Culturally, you'll see more people playing american football these days, tons of basketball in Shanghai, Beijing etc. They eat KFC, they drink Starbucks, they use iPhones/Android etc. They wear blue jeans, they want to wear Prada, drive BMW's etc. Like most other nations, they have adopted the American/Western way of life and culture. You'll see more and more english, more foreign stuff all the time etc.

I could write more, but I'll leave with stating, that China is antagonizing several neighbors. Japan, India, Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Taiwan, Cambodia etc. Let's see what happens.

 

[dogmaan]

The Japanese navy and air force is freaking huge and cutting edge. Again: "self defence force" is a complete misnomer. They haven't got the second largest navy in Asia for no reason.

Then you've got a whole web of treaties and whatnot if an all our war does happen (it won't, there's nothing to gain by actually using the toys). Unless you're assuming everyone is going to renege on their promises.



China's big honchos frequently lose perspective on their own importance in the world and say extremely stupid things. Just recently you had some Chinese Colonel tell Julia Gillard (the prime minister of Australia) to be a docile lamb in regards to China's land disputes around Asia. Which is strange because I'm pretty sure Australia has said and done nothing. The same guy was also throwing around hypothetical situations where China might be able to fire nukes at Japan. He seemed completely ignorant that any aggressive action against South East Asia pretty much sets off a chain reaction of treaties (ANZUS, NATO, FPDA, etc.) but he doesn't care (or know) about that.

Its huge sabre rattling. I doubt a war is even profitable for the Chinese. They just need excuses to justify their existence and all of that spending. Its handy for the Japanese too, gets the government to hand cash to local industry to build more useless shit.

The comments towards Australia are incredibly condescending, also I am really struggling to understand the Chinese Governments mindset, their political system and intentions seems opaque to me, the aggressiveness and rudeness just gives the ASEAN nations and NATO etc a reason to be paranoid.

I understand their fear of containment, but that is just the political and geographical reality of China, they need to understand that the containment policies come from their own behavior, I highly doubt America feels contained by Canada and Mexico, and I doubt Canada and Mexico have any fear of the US taking a hyper aggressive stance and annexing their territory. (weird comparison I know)

 

[slit]

Japan is lucky that we live in an age of the UN and one in which land grab wars are condemned by the world. If not, China would just take them and win the war if there was one.

I don't think so. The U.S. has already stated that the defence pact with Japan applies here. China will never risk a naval war with the U.S. over this. Not to mention Japan itself is more than capable of holding it's own.

 

[genjiZERO]

. . . you'll see more people playing american football. . .

That's where you lost me.

 

[Madness]

That's where you lost me.

Are you kidding me? In fact, some GAF'ers here are even on teams in Shanghai. American football and Basketball are some of the fastest growing sports played and watched in China.

 

[BolognaSoup]

Come on GAF!

 

[genjiZERO]

? Are you kidding me? In fact, some GAF'ers here are even on teams in Shanghai. American football and Basketball are some of the fastest growing sports played and watched in China.

Maybe people are playing/watching American football in China, I don't know, but the way you wrote it made it sound as if interest in American football was a symbol of universal modernisation. As if, in a universal sense, as a country becomes modern it will also start to become interested in American football.

edit:

? . . . ?

First language Spanish? Maybe it was a communication error.

 

[Madness]

The comments towards Australia are incredibly condescending, also I am really struggling to understand the Chinese Governments mindset, their political system and intentions seems opaque to me, the aggressiveness and rudeness just gives the ASEAN nations and NATO etc a reason to be paranoid.

I understand their fear of containment, but that is just the political and geographical reality of China, they need to understand that the containment policies come from their own behavior, I highly doubt America feels contained by Canada and Mexico, and I doubt Canada and Mexico have any fear of the US taking a hyper aggressive stance and annexing their territory[\b]. (weird comparison I know)

That's actually quite a relevant fear in Canada, and I'm guessing some Mexicans may think it as well. Even if it's only joking, there is always this feeling that Americans believe they could come and annex us if needed or muscle us around for resources. It doesn't help that Americans violate sovereignty when it comes to things like the Northwest Passage, sending nuclear subs through our waters without announcing it.

I mean history would have you believe different no? 54-40 or fight, the annexation of Mexican territories etc. Though it won't happen so aggressively. I'll bet some puppet like Harper would willingly sign Canada over under the guise of safety or security. Soon, American officers will have the ability to come across our borders and arrest suspects. No longer will they have to wait at the border because they have no authority. Plus, soon, everyone entering Canada will have this information shared with the US and likewise. It's still sounds ludicrous, but don't think Canadians and possibly Mexicans aren't hesitant to keep getting so cosy with the US.

 

[Madness]

Maybe people are playing/watching American football in China, I don't know, but the way you wrote it made it sound as if interest in American football was a symbol of universal modernisation. As if, in a universal sense, as a country becomes modern it will also start to become interested in American football.

I never wrote it like that. I wrote culturally, you're seeing a huge increase in the amount of people playing american football and basketball. You only took it that way yourself. I meant to imply that western culture, especially US culture has started to permeate all areas of Chinese life.

For example, google American football in China. You'll see than 10 semi-professional teams have formed in 18 months, many people follow NFL games, etc. Very few countries in the world follow US football or play it like China has started to. Add in the fact that the NBA has just skyrocketed and you can see what I meant about culture.

EDIT: Double Post, please don't ban mods. It slipped my mind regarding the multiquote and I only saw it after.

 

[questionmark]

The comments towards Australia are incredibly condescending, also I am really struggling to understand the Chinese Governments mindset, their political system and intentions seems opaque to me, the aggressiveness and rudeness just gives the ASEAN nations and NATO etc a reason to be paranoid.

Well I believe one of the reasons is the same as why Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands in 1982. A possible outside threat from an old enemy will mean that people will be less focused on the faults of their own government. A means of distraction and increasing nationalistic pride.

 

[genjiZERO]

I never wrote it like that. I wrote culturally, you're seeing a huge increase in the amount of people playing american football and basketball. You only took it that way yourself. I meant to imply that western culture, especially US culture has started to permeate all areas of Chinese life.

For example, google American football in China. You'll see than 10 semi-professional teams have formed in 18 months, many people follow NFL games, etc. Very few countries in the world follow US football or play it like China has started to. Add in the fact that the NBA has just skyrocketed and you can see what I meant about culture.

You did write it like that. You said, "Culturally, you'll see more people playing american football". This means that it is something you expect to happen in the future. Furthermore, in the context of your predicted Westernisation in the later sentences it suggests that it is a result of modernisation. This is reinforced by the perceived notion that Westernisation is coupled with modernisation. You may not have intended to suggest it that way, but the way you wrote it definitely does.

Castellano?

 

[donkey show]

No.

But these do!

Spoiler

lol

 

[HappyBivouac]

This is anecdotal, but none of the high school students I taught in China had even the most basic understanding of what American football is. Some didn't even know it existed.

 

[Shadow780]

No.

That's what Japan wants you to think.

 

[greepoman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21337444

If this is true, it's insane behavior, it's the equivalent of pointing a cocked and loaded gun at someone.

If the US or Japanese navy were to do the same, I imagine the PLAN (Navy) response would not be as measured

Honestly this sounds a little sensationalist. The article says "something like fire-control radar was directed at a Japan Self-Defence Maritime escort ship " which basically only means a high fidelity radar was pointed at this ship. It's not like you can even confirm that it was attached to a weapon system. Fire control radars probably spend 99.9% of their life directed at things for informational purposes and not actually to fire upon things simply because they're higher resolution that a surveillance radar. They might be doing some mind games but I really think they had no intention to fire.

The whole "locked on" thing merely means you're tracking an object and is completely overblown by hollywood. Would it blow your mind to if I told you every single airplane on the airport radar is "locked on"!

 

[PhoenixDark]

China would completely overwhelm Japan in a solo war, I'm surprised people are denying that. Unfortunately for china that would never happen due to treaties; I'm not even sure Russia would come to their aide if the US and other countries got involved.

I imagine we'll get saber rattling all year but nothing will happen. The costs of war to the global economy wouldn't justify an attack over some small islands. My only fear is that some accidental first shot could spark a short term conflict.

 

[donkey show]

That's what Japan wants you to think.

China Gundam is rocking some swag though.

 

[JohnDoe]

The country that manages to develop a real Gundam first wins.

 

[OfWhiteSkinOnRedLeather]

This works, doesn't it.

Yes, but no one it's supposed to know, so don't say anything. Yet.

 

[slit]

China would completely overwhelm Japan in a solo war, I'm surprised people are denying that. Unfortunately for china that would never happen due to treaties; I'm not even sure Russia would come to their aide if the US and other countries got involved.

I imagine we'll get saber rattling all year but nothing will happen. The costs of war to the global economy wouldn't justify an attack over some small islands. My only fear is that some accidental first shot could spark a short term conflict.

It's not as simple as overwhelming force. China has a large military but they would have a hard time projecting that military might onto any country they don't share a land border with. This has always been China's problem. The mobilization of their forces overseas.

 

[tino]

This is anecdotal, but none of the high school students I taught in China had even the most basic understanding of what American football is. Some didn't even know it existed.

Well most think its same as Rugby. I see the threadhas derailed nicely (not that there is anything to talk about.)

 

[Boss Doggie]

This works, doesn't it.

No.

And according to Gundam, Sie (Chinese) has always put Domon (Japanese) down save for their tourney fight where Domon got double God Finger.

 

[Takuan]

China's still mad about WW2.

Japan shares much of the blame for China's grudge - besides their horrific acts during WW2, as I understand it they never apologized for much of the stuff they did.

Compare this to Germany, where a visit to Berlin will show you the extent to which they highlight their bad period.

Yup, they'd rather pretend it didn't happen; they even rewrote the history books to either gloss over or lie outright about their involvement in WW2. One of my high school friends who immigrated over from Japan truly believed that the Rape of Nanjing was Chinese propaganda. I'm not sure how accurately they depict WW2 in their curriculum today - I recall reading somewhere that it's improved, but they still only mention it in passing.

I think China is particularly angry over a monument dedicated to a known war criminal more than anything else.

 

[2MF]

China's still mad about WW2.

Japan shares much of the blame for China's grudge - besides their horrific acts during WW2, as I understand it they never apologized for much of the stuff they did.

Compare this to Germany, where a visit to Berlin will show you the extent to which they highlight their bad period.

 

[GaimeGuy]

This works, doesn't it.

No.

No.

Dreams->Shattered

 

[dogmaan]

Honestly this sounds a little sensationalist. The article says "something like fire-control radar was directed at a Japan Self-Defence Maritime escort ship " which basically only means a high fidelity radar was pointed at this ship. It's not like you can even confirm that it was attached to a weapon system. Fire control radars probably spend 99.9% of their life directed at things for informational purposes and not actually to fire upon things simply because they're higher resolution that a surveillance radar. They might be doing some mind games but I really think they had no intention to fire.

The whole "locked on" thing merely means you're tracking an object and is completely overblown by hollywood. Would it blow your mind to if I told you every single airplane on the airport radar is "locked on"!

Would it surprise you to know that there is a difference between Radar scan modes like Range while scan (Get ranging information), track while scan (track radar returns over successive sweep intervals), and Lock (Pencil beam that tracks one radar return, massively reduces sweep interval duration, and provides accurate targeting information).

To quote wiki "A fire-control radar (FCR) is a radar which is designed specifically to provide information (mainly target azimuth, elevation, range and velocity) to a fire-control system in order to calculate a firing solution (i.e. information on how to direct weapons such that they hit the target(s)). Such radars typically emit a narrow, intense beam of radio waves to ensure accurate tracking information."

Also airport radars can be incredibly inaccurate, and usually depend on transponder data for accurate range/altitude.

 

[Enkidu]

Really? That's really fascinating.

I believe the plane in question was actually one of these:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_SR-71_Blackbird

The congratulation letter is a bit of a myth so who knows if it really happened, the Swedish Air force did however lock-on to the SR-71 on multiple occasions.

Swedish JA 37 Viggen fighter pilots, using the predictable patterns of SR-71 routine flights over the Baltic Sea, managed to lock their radar on the SR-71 on numerous occasions. Despite heavy jamming from the SR-71, target illumination was maintained by feeding target location from ground-based radars to the fire-control computer in the Viggen. The most common site for the lock-on to occur was the thin stretch of international airspace between Öland and Gotland that the SR-71 used on the return flight.

 

[greepoman]

Would it surprise you to know that there is a difference between Radar scan modes like Range while scan (Get ranging information), track while scan (track radar returns over successive sweep intervals), and Lock (Pencil beam that tracks one radar return, massively reduces sweep interval duration, and provides accurate targeting information).

To quote wiki "A fire-control radar (FCR) is a radar which is designed specifically to provide information (mainly target azimuth, elevation, range and velocity) to a fire-control system in order to calculate a firing solution (i.e. information on how to direct weapons such that they hit the target(s)). Such radars typically emit a narrow, intense beam of radio waves to ensure accurate tracking information."

Also airport radars can be incredibly inaccurate, and usually depend on transponder data for accurate range/altitude.

Yeah I've worked in FCRs for over 10 yrs but I didn't want to get into that great a detail. I'll grant you airport radar isn't the greatest analogy fidelity-wise, I was just trying to illustrate that "locking on" is merely tracking. It really depends on what kind of handover error your weapon system expects. My original point is still true though that almost all of the pointing these FCRs do is informational and not tactical. I wouldn't have a job otherwise. Not to mention a waste of money to have such a high fidelity radar sitting idle.

 

[Phoenix]

The country that manages to develop a real Gundam first wins.

Unless they build a stupifying missile defense shield at the same time, they just won a future smoldering junk pile.