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[Sutton Dagger]

Confirmation bias the thread.

OP just go to a professional who practices techniques based on science. You may find Chiropractics who practice verifiable techniques but they aren't based on traditional Chiro beliefs (which a nonsense), just go to a physio.

 

[valeo]

Chiro's will get you to come back every week and pay exorbitant fees, all while trying to make you think they are fixing the problem.

Physio's will see you once, give you a bunch of stretches to do, and say don't come back unless you need to.

I think it's pretty obvious who the money sucking scam artists are here.

You know what... This is fucking bullshit, and it's bad for you.

I work in pain management (I'm a PA in interventional pain management), and the entire field really lacks the concrete evidence of efficacy found in other disciplines, simply because pain is subjective- There isn't a blood test that assesses it, there isn't a magical pill that will cure a herniated disc, etc.

All you have to go on is how people feel, and I have found that for a good many people that chiropractic can work wonders if the chiropractor knows what he/she is doing. I can also say that surgical intervention is one of the worst treatment options available for someone with chronic back or neck pain. And by the way, the best that most pain management doctors can do for someone is write for narcotics or give some injections, to varying degrees of success. Sometimes chiro/PT/acupuncture/massage therapy can work wonders where other western medical interventions have not.

TL;DR- People without experience in the field shouldn't be shitting on something they know little to nothing about, or even worse- Telling people that they're wrong when they have little to no evidence that what they're suggesting is right.

What a load of crap. There is sufficient evidence pointing to chiropractors causing more harm than good, and there is a tonne of evidence that proper stretching, posture etc which physio's encourage does work. All you need to do is search for it.

There is NO credible evidence that points to it working on a regular basis that isn't funded by chiros themselves. The only evidence I have seen is people going to the chiro every week and saying it helps - if it helps, why do you need to go back so often?

It's no coincidence that most chiros are also anti-vaccers.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/064615124X/?tag=neogaf0e-20

The Chiro Association sells this book.

 

[888]

If an accredited medical professional recommends pills or surgery, you should probably take it.

Yup like the doctor that put my 25 year old friend on some heavy blood pressure meds.. Turns out after consulting another doctor it should never have been done and it was anxiety that was causing the High blood pressure. You can't just stop taking those pills after you start.

So yeah there are quacks on both sides.

And I only go to a chiro a few times a year. Usually after I do something like help someone move. Overall tho since I started weight lifting again and building muscle things have been fine. Posture is better and can't say I have anymore pain. Last time I went to see him was when I threw my hip out months ago.

If you are going too much it's not good for you and will likely make things worse. I have visited some that literally do the same thing to everyone without question. I felt he was a quack. The one I go to now and then is very specific and will work movement, stretches etc.

 

[Ivieto]

Yeah.. No.

With the help of one I was able to get rid of Sciatic pain which was crippling. Haven't had an issue for over a year now. It was so bad that any movement or pressure was pure agony.

I 100% do not believe a single thing you are saying. I don't consider you to be a liar, but your experience is completely biased and tainted by you being inside your brain.

I will trust cold, hard science with my health, thank you!

 

[Maxim726X]

Chiro's will get you to come back every week and pay exorbitant fees, all while trying to make you think they are fixing the problem.

Physio's will see you once, give you a bunch of stretches to do, and say don't come back unless you need to.

I think it's pretty obvious who the money sucking scam artists are here.




What a load of crap. There is sufficient evidence pointing to chiropractors causing more harm than good, and there is a tonne of evidence that proper stretching, posture etc which physio's encourage does work. All you need to do is search for it.

A) I worked in a physio's office. You have no idea what you're talking about.

B) Again, there is little clinical data that says any of the treatments utilized by most pain management physicians lead to long term relief. At least not anymore than the other treatment methods discussed here.

I 100% do not believe a single thing you are saying. I don't consider you to be a liar, but your experience is completely biased and tainted by you being inside your brain.

I will trust cold, hard science with my health, thank you!

Well, you have a problem. Because 'cold,hard science' is hard to find in this field. Almost impossible.

 

[MikeyB]

The weird thing about debates about science is that people think they can always counter it with personal anecdotes. You know, almost as if those anecdotes were free of the inherent biases that the scientific method was designed to overcome.

It's bizarre.

I'm not arguing that doctors are flawless, just that the good ones actually have evidence backing them up, unlike the principles grounding chiropractic.

 

[valeo]

A) I worked in a physio's office. You have no idea what you're talking about.

B) Again, there is little clinical data that says any of the treatments utilized by most pain management physicians lead to long term relief. At least not anymore than the other treatment methods discussed here.




Well, you have a problem. Because 'cold,hard science' is hard to find in this field. Almost impossible.

Please explain why chiropractors tell you to come back on a weekly or bi weekly basis if they are supposed to be alleviating the issue?

The weird thing about debates about science is that people think they can always counter it with personal anecdotes. You know, almost as if those anecdotes were free of the inherent biases that the scientific method was designed to overcome.

It's bizarre.

I'm not arguing that doctors are flawless, just that the good ones actually have evidence backing them up, unlike the principles grounding chiropractic.

Exactly. The only evidence that points to that points to the chiropractic profession being a legitimate one is anecdotal. If you google, you will find tonnes of supposed miracle cures that in reality have helped one - maybe two - people but don't work for anyone else.

 

[888]

I 100% do not believe a single thing you are saying. I don't consider you to be a liar, but your experience is completely biased and tainted by you being inside your brain.

I will trust cold, hard science with my health, thank you!

Can't tell if trolling

 

[Ivieto]

Well, you have a problem. Because 'cold,hard science' is hard to find in this field. Almost impossible.

Yeah, pain medicine is not completely understood. Let's not jump into the invented science that misalignment in your back cause anything from cancer to minor muscle pain.

 

[DrSlek]

Chiropractors are witch doctors.

Anything of use has been absorbed from chiro into physiotherapy anyway.

 

[RyougaSaotome]

I have nothing to add to this conversation, but I just want everyone to know that I misread the title as Chiroraptors, and was simultaneously confused and instantly intrigued.

 

[Ivieto]

Can't tell if trolling

100% not.

I know people like you, the moment you start talking about your experience on some type of treatment instead of the actual science and efficacy studies behind it, you will go into my "ignore" box for most things.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

Yes, I always recommend anti-inflammatories as a staple in treatment.

Oftentimes, that isn't enough.

Really is amazing how closed minded people can be, especially with something that is nebulous and subjective like pain management.

I'm medically trained, and it's how I always begin treatment... I want imaging, and I start on anti-inflammatories. Imaging is just a formality, though. Unless there is a severe protrusion or herniation, treatment is similar throughout. People don't want to be on painkillers (which I agree with, unless absolutely necessary), and surgery is probably the worst treatment option for people with chronic neck or back pain.

Anecdotally, I've seen a combination of chiro, massage therapy, PT, and trigger point injections work better than giving someone an epidural or cortisone injection every 3-4 months and calling it a day. Doesn't matter, people will believe what they will. And I'm aware that there is questionable evidence of these treatment methods, but they're as successful as the other, more traditional methods that people expect from a medical pain management team.

As a medical professional then, you should also acknowledge that Chiro (using solely Chiro techniques)/acupuncture don't actually treat the underlying issue. In the case of acupuncture, the evidence points to sham acupuncture (not inserting needles) as being just as effective as 'real' acupuncture, meaning it's purely a placebo effect, which can also be obtained by other means. As you said, pain is a subjective experience, yet when it comes to the hard science (physiological changes etc), these techniques don't work, people thinking they do has a positive effect on pain management only.

So correction on the questionable evidence statement, the evidence points to these things be useless for anything other than pain management.

 

[Beerman462]

Chiro never did much for my back pain. Physio is where its at.

 

[valeo]

I also like how anecdotal evidence saying that chiros work is acceptable, but anecdotal evidence saying that someone was paralysed from the waist down and another suffered a stroke is ignored.

The fact is - some chiros might be half assed physios, and they may be doing a half assed job and it may be working - but the risk of the other, worse chiros causing damage to a poor patient is pretty damn high.

Anyone going to a chiro encourages this practice, and encourages more unlicensed medical professionals to potentially cause harm to others.

 

[Orayn]

I dont really know, but isnt what chiropractors do actually similar to what physiotherapeuts do?

I always assumed it was the same.

In the very best case scenario, they're doing some of the same things as a physical therapist and just happen to be practicing medicine without a license. It's often much worse than that.

 

[Maxim726X]

Please explain why chiropractors tell you to come back on a weekly or bi weekly basis if they are supposed to be alleviating the issue?

Exactly. The only evidence that points to that points to the chiropractic profession being a legitimate one is anecdotal. If you google, you will find tonnes of supposed miracle cures that in reality have helped one - maybe two - people but don't work for anyone else.

Well, that's not usually permanent. And if you find a good chiropractor, you won't need to be getting treated for over 2 months... You should be better by then.

And if they're not better- Then what? Most of the patients in the office I work in are spit into the worker's comp mill, receive terrible medical care, deemed worthy to go back to work in a few weeks regardless of condition, and... Nothing is different.

Sometimes anti-inflammatories aren't enough. Sometimes surgery isn't realistically an option. Sometimes (50% of the time, from what I've read) epidurals fail.

People make it sound so simple, but pain management is anything but. Everyone has a unique threshold, and sometimes proper stretching techniques, PT and the like aren't enough. This offers another avenue of treatment.

As a medical professional then, you should also acknowledge that Chiro (using solely Chiro techniques)/acupuncture don't actually treat the underlying issue. In the case of acupuncture, the evidence points to sham acupuncture (not inserting needles) as being just as effective as 'real' acupuncture, meaning it's purely a placebo effect, which can also be obtained by other means. As you said, pain is a subjective experience, yet when it comes to the hard science (physiological changes etc), these techniques don't work, people thinking they do has a positive effect on pain management only.

So correction on the questionable evidence statement, the evidence points to these things be useless for anything other than pain management.

By itself? You are correct. Which is why chiro and acupuncture are usually done in conjunction with other treatments... In my situation, trigger point injections with an anti-inflammatory and lidocaine.

And again, it is difficult to look at pain management through the lens of hard science alone... It's an intricate process which isn't well understood. It's why there is so much variation from patient to patient.

 

[888]

100% not.

I know people like you, the moment you start talking about your experience on some type of treatment instead of the actual science and efficacy studies behind it, you will go into my "ignore" box for most things.

You know people like me because I visited a chiropractor that helped me with some hamstring stretches that helped get rid of pain and for that my experience ain't shit?

http://www.sw.org/HealthLibrary?page=Hamstring Syndrome with Rehab-SportsMed

Did I have to visit a chiropractor for this? No but the guy helped with my pain regardless. So you will go to my ignore box.

 

[Ivieto]

You know people like me because I visited a chiropractor ....

Yes, stopped reading after that, that's all I need to know about you.

 

[Quotient]

Did you go to this guy?

He only accepts women as patients?

 

[TwoDurans]

So I rubbed my eye and my contact slide slightly. Then I read the Thread title as "Chipocoraptors are amazing."

I clicked because I wanted to know if this was a new dinosaur or something. Imagine my disappointment.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I don't trust doctors. The only thing they see is money and they'll do anything to extract as much of it as possible from you.

People who do chiropractic medicine are those people who aren't driven by money. Of course there's bad apples in every profession, but I sincerely believe chiropractors are in this field to help their ailing patients as best as they can.

Western medicine is founded on an extremely unhealthy devotion to science, science, and more science. We need to have skepticism in our lives and we can't just trust everything just because someone happens to have weaseled their way through a PhD.

When you think about it, our ancestors had a lot of successful treatments for illnesses like medicinal bark which "doctors" even now do not understand the effects of. What's to say that chiropractioners are not going back to our roots when we were healthier and stronger individuals?

If we do not accept alternative medicines, we will quickly reach our ceiling as a species and will not be able to evolve into the cosmos. It'd be a tremendous shame.

This is amazing satire. Ticked all the fallacies checkboxes. Well done.

Chances are you neither have ever gotten either done and are talking out of your ass.

It's cute that you think your personal anecdote trumps hard data, but it doesn't work like that in the real world.

Anything of use has been absorbed from chiro into physiotherapy anyway.

Yup.

Ever noticed how all alt med ever treats are vague feelings of pain and unease? No one but the quackest of quacks would use alt med to treat cancer, diabetes, viral and bacterial infections, trauma wounds, etc. Because for the most part, the placebo effect just ain't enough for serious health problems, but it can work for feelings of fatigue, pain, discomfort, etc.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

I personally wouldn't go to one. I had sciatica and back pain in 2011 after a gym incident. Went to an ortho to make sure it wasn't anything serious then did PT on my own and eventually it went away. I would not have been comfortable having a chiro manipulate my back before knowing it wasn't serious.

Plus the origins of chiro are whack.

 

[Fonds]

A couple pages in an no mention of occupational therapy... For shame GAF, for shame.

OT has proven to be effective in coping with long term pain.

If you're suffering from any form of chronic pain, like lower back pain. See a rehabilitation doctor; it will probably lead to a combination of physio, OT and perhaps excersice therapy.

 

[SURGEdude]

The weird thing about debates about science is that people think they can always counter it with personal anecdotes. You know, almost as if those anecdotes were free of the inherent biases that the scientific method was designed to overcome.

It's bizarre.

I'm not arguing that doctors are flawless, just that the good ones actually have evidence backing them up, unlike the principles grounding chiropractic.

Well put.

Chiropractors are witch doctors.

Anything of use has been absorbed from chiro into physiotherapy anyway.

True. But to be fair the whole thing started as a pseudoscience scam and whatever value it had was purely accidental. The whole basis is rotten and illegitimate.

In the very best case scenario, they're doing some of the same things as a physical therapist and just happen to be practicing medicine without a license. It's often much worse than that.

Indeed. The very best you will get is somebody who is untrained but self-educated in actual science based medicine. Most of these quacks like to pretend to be MDs and should be brought up on charges of impersonation for how far they will go to maintain that look.

In the end there is no support for it being a benefit and carries a small risk of serious injury or death. Might as well just pray the pain away.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

Amazing con-artists and frauds.

There, fixed it for you.

Fuck off with this shit

 

[Biker19]

Fuck off with this shit

Someone can't handle the truth.

Chiropractory is very risky, & not all Chiropractors are terrific at their jobs. Not to mention that even if they do solve your problems with your back, etc., it's only a temporarily fix.

Physical therapy is where it's at.

 

[Orayn]

Fuck off with this shit

It's not really false. There are plenty of chiropractors who claim to be able to do things they factually can't accomplish, or who try to turn people into repeat customers for the sake of lining their own pockets. Plenty of them "help" people with a non-science-based methodology whose benefits are mostly the placebo effect.

There may be some chiros who mean well, but on the whole it is not a good profession.

 

[ZackieChan]

Thread backfire gave me whiplash.

Spoiler

better see my chiropractor

 

[gcubed]

That's my entire point. There's little evidence to conventional medical treatments as well. Find me evidence that narcotics/muscle relaxants bestow long term relief- Because oftentimes that's the extent of what orthopedics or physio has to offer. Much less surgery or epidurals... Which are completely hit or miss. Neck/back surgeries can be disastrous. Find me concrete evidence that these work, because I haven't found any.

And as I said, it's hard to be 'right' or 'wrong' when pain is so subjective. Either it makes you feel better, or it doesn't. Personally, I've seen epidurals do less for pain relief than massage therapy, chiro, or any other modality. Again, not easy to definitively prove the efficacy of pain management therapies when there is no test or diagnostic modality that can prove it without question.

I think his point is that you lumped in an actual medical profession with quacks.

 

[Vampirolol]

I'm going to an osteopath wich is also physiotherapist. It feels good but for now he didn't cure me, no one did actually. The cool part is that he adjusted my sleep with just some moves.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Physical therapy is where it's at.

What if this one wouldnt help though?
I am skeptical about these things, but my sister, who didnt believe in those things, went to several doctors, took a lot of medication for her pain went to an acupuncturer after nothing helped her and while she went there, without believing in anything, her pain went away (according to her). It also was just temporary, but at least normal medication didnt help her.

 

[Maxim726X]

What if this one wouldnt help though?
I am skeptical about these things, but my sister, who didnt believe in those things, went to several doctors, took a lot of medication for her pain went to an acupuncturer after nothing helped her and while she went there, without believing in anything, her pain went away (according to her). It also was just temporary, but at least normal medication didnt help her.

And that's really the point.

You can read peer reviewed articles which extoll the benefits of 'x' over 'y', but ultimately it comes down to the individual. Traditional medicine deals with pain in the way you describe- Load people up with pills, send them to PT and hope for the best. If that doesn't work, cortisone injections. If that doesn't work, surgery. If that doesn't work? You're in trouble.

I agree that there isn't a consensus on chiropractic. But from what I've read, there's no evidence of long-term damage either (I'm sure there are some studies that claim that there are). Epidurals have a 50% success rate, according to the Columbia Spine Center and other major hospitals... Which is basically what I've read regarding chiro, TPI, massage, etc.

It really does depend on the person, as evidenced in this thread.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

I'm going to an osteopath wich is also physiotherapist. It feels good but for now he didn't cure me, no one did actually. The cool part is that he adjusted my sleep with just some moves.

osteopaths can also be doctors, many MDs and DOs work side by side in hospitals.

What if this one wouldnt help though?
I am skeptical about these things, but my sister, who didnt believe in those things, went to several doctors, took a lot of medication for her pain went to an acupuncturer after nothing helped her and while she went there, without believing in anything, her pain went away (according to her). It also was just temporary, but at least normal medication didnt help her.

Power of suggestion. And it depends on the medication, dosage and other information the doc has. I mean, you could have a rare paradoxical reaction to many medications.

 

[SURGEdude]

It's not really false. There are plenty of chiropractors who claim to be able to do things they factually can't accomplish, or who try to turn people into repeat customers for the sake of lining their own pockets. Plenty of them "help" people with a non-science-based methodology whose benefits are mostly the placebo effect.

There may be some chiros who mean well, but on the whole it is not a good profession.

I have no doubt a small number of them drink their own kool aid but I imagine most of them know they are running a con. Like I said above the fact that they pretty much impersonate MDs is pretty telling as to their intentions.

 

[dluu13]

Be careful with foam rollers on your lower back. I've read that it can make certain back issues worse.

If you ever use one, then you should make sure you find out how to use it properly. Using one for too long at one time can also mess up your back.

Yes, stopped reading after that, that's all I need to know about you.

So you claim to be somebody that listens to evidence, but you won't hear this dude out? The last few posts were just you telling people their posts weren't worth your time to read. Are we discussing them, or are we discussing chiropractic?

There are anti-vaxxers that are totally quacks, then there are chiropractics. Their foundation is bullshit, which is unfortunate beecause there are practitioners that actually do good work and it's tainted by their label.

 

[Maxim726X]

osteopaths can also be doctors, many MDs and DOs work side by side in hospitals.


Power of suggestion. And it depends on the medication, dosage and other information the doc has. I mean, you could have a rare paradoxical reaction to many medications.

Oh, so all of the people in this thread that have been helped by acupuncture, chiro, massage, etc are merely imagining their improvement? It's all in their minds?

So why wouldn't they simply will away their ailment under traditional medical care, then?

 

[SURGEdude]

What if this one wouldnt help though?
I am skeptical about these things, but my sister, who didnt believe in those things, went to several doctors, took a lot of medication for her pain went to an acupuncturer after nothing helped her and while she went there, without believing in anything, her pain went away (according to her). It also was just temporary, but at least normal medication didnt help her.

Here's the reason anecdotes don't work for this kind of thing. Let me give you an example. A family member of mine had a dog who seemed nearing the point of being put down because of arthritis-like stiffness and she decided to bring her in for acupuncture. Shortly after the dog got better and everybody went "see! acupuncture works".

Now if I wasn't interested in evidence based medicine I could easily point to that anecdote and parrot that line too. But the fact of the matter is that it doesn't do shit and the correlation is purely coincidental.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Oh, so all of the people in this thread that have been helped by acupuncture, chiro, massage, etc are merely imagining their improvement? It's all in their minds?

So why wouldn't they simply will away their ailment under traditional medical care, then?

Placebo value of the ritual. A simple acetaminophen or ibuprofen pill, and go home, take a load off isn't a ritual. Long term pain care is definitely seeing the most to gain by physical therapy or talk therapies like CBT, after the mess of the opioid prescription problem

 

[WorldStar]

incredibly embarrassing that we live in world where millennials are too irresponsible to have a credit card and too fucking stupid to go to doctors instead of chiropractors

 

[Maxim726X]

Placebo value of the ritual. A simple acetaminophen or ibuprofen pill, and go home, take a load off isn't a ritual. Long term pain care is definitely seeing the most to gain by physical therapy or talk therapies like CBT, after the mess of the opioid prescription problem

So now you're arguing that taking oral medication wouldn't bestow the placebo effect? Really?

Ironic, after all the entire basis of the effect is from an oral sugar pill...

That's a weak argument, at best.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

Fuck off with this shit

We got a chiropractor in here.

 

[SURGEdude]

Placebo value of the ritual. A simple acetaminophen or ibuprofen pill, and go home, take a load off isn't a ritual.

Exactly. Combine that with a PhD posing as an MD telling you he will cure everything and you have a huge incentive believe it. The stuff is based on junk science with nothing empirical to back it up. The only real argument for it is that placebo based improvements are still improvements. But being duped into feeling better for a pile of money seems a pretty roundabout way of solving life's ills.

If you want to waste money buy a lotto ticket or something. At least with that you have a tiny chance of getting something worthwhile in return and you aren't lining some anti-science and likely anti-vaxxer's pockets.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

So now you're arguing that taking oral medication wouldn't bestow the placebo effect? Really?

Ironic, after all the entire basis of the effect is from an oral sugar pill...

That's a weak argument, at best.

Not what I said, I don't know what medications they took, or if they took them, the dosage, any post care procedure. So, it's all anecdotal.

 

[HowZatOZ]

As someone who was born with a club foot, I have had nothing but terrible back pains for a good part of my teenage and now adult life. It actually got so bad when I was around 13/14 that my vision was getting affected by my poor posture due to the club foot. Going to a chiropractor about once every three months fixed all my issues, and we only sought the best.

I would only ever recommend ones that I'm comfortable with to my friends and family, as I have gone to a few that are really after your money and offer no long-term fixes. Honestly though with any medicine its entirely different between each person, so make your own mind up.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

incredibly embarrassing that we live in world where millennials are too irresponsible to have a credit card and too fucking stupid to go to doctors instead of chiropractors

It's not just millennials, bud. In fact, I'd argue the older generation uses them more.

My dad had pneumonia and instead of going to an actual doctor for antibiotics, instead consulted his chiropractor. After a month, he found himself in the Er from having a seizure and almost dying. Sadly, my dad still sees the quack instead of going to the doctors again. He fears going to the doctor. But when it was the doctors that saved him and the chiropractor was the one that almost put him under, he'd still rather go back to the fucking quack.

 

[Easy_D]

An yes. Chiropractics, the only form of magic formally recognised by the WHO as a legitimate, scientific form of medicine.

Studies show that it really only helps with lower back pain, and even then more standard forms of treatment work better. But eh, glad you feel better op.


Edit:

Spoiler

Post shamelessly sourced from Wikipedia

 

[dluu13]

It's not just millennials, bud. In fact, I'd argue the older generation uses them more.

My dad had pneumonia and instead of going to an actual doctor for antibiotics, instead consulted his chiropractor. After a month, he found himself in the Er from having a seizure and almost dying. Sadly, my dad still sees the quack instead of going to the doctors again. He fears going to the doctor. But when it was the doctors that saved him and the chiropractor was the one that almost put him under, he'd still rather go back to the fucking quack.

That's because he went to the chiropractor for pneumonia. No amount of spine alignment will fix that.

 

[NekoFever]

Looking through this thread, it's amazing how mainstream chiropractic is. Very few here would argue in favour of homeopathy or acupuncture, but chiropractic seems to be the default choice of 'treatment' for back pain and a lot of other ailments, and people will passionately defend it.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Fuck off with this shit

Chiropractor can't fix a herniated disc by cracking your back. Chriopractor can't really fix anything. All cracking your back does is make you feel kind of mellow for an hour. I'll grant that it does feel good. So does a massage.