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[hellclerk]

You mean like the fact that vastly more Christians (not even religious people broadly—just Christians) than atheists are in US prisons for violent crimes?

Per capita, so are black people to white people. Are you saying that black people are bad for society too? I mean, there couldn't be anything like socio-economic issues or anything like that.

Spoiler

See what I did there?

 

[Bungalow Bob]

Exodus 33:17-23 (King James Version)

17And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

21And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

22And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

23And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Is God saying that he's going to moon Moses? I wonder if he posts on 4chan?

 

[KtSlime]

Ok. I wasn't claiming atheism was a religion, as stated. And it's not my definition, just a very interesting one.

It's a very false one - atheism is simply the rejection of a belief in god. The rejection of a belief in chimera which I am sure we both share is also not a religion.

 

[GhaleonQ]

Once you mention that you need to approach the bible in faith,

I could be a total douche to you right now, but this is hilarious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_faith It sort of means "honest intent."

I actually laughed on my end of this Internet connection. Can we end this now? That term is used in law, debate, religious study, and academia. It's not an obscure phrase. Again, I think that you're arguing just to argue, not because you bring something useful to argument.

I think you may have a point. However, one would think that if religion truly did make people more moral, Christians would be underrepresented in prison populations.

1. The Bible doesn't make the point that Christians behave better than non-Christians on a tallied card.

2. You're making the anti-education reform mistake of ignoring value-added belief! People who suck may gravitate toward it and, therefore, Christianity reflects an aggregate growth in goodness even if nominal Christians reflect a lower mean goodness.

3. You're also ignoring net goodness creation over history. Christendom (which I'm not even a fan of, really) rescuing Europe from barbarism reflects an awfully large creation of goodness even if 2011 prison inmates reflect something different.

I'm only kind of being facetious.

 

[mike23]

Because He works so hard to protect everyone.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Why the Hell not

Now metal fans in the United Kingdom are seeking to make it official with a Facebook campaign to have “Heavy Metal” recognized as a religion on the upcoming UK Census.

 

[Uchip]

Because He works so hard to protect everyone.

the only real troll
http://ifloop.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/t831m.jpg

 

[Raist]

I don't blame you for skimming the topic, but I'm responding to something incredibly narrow.

"And if they're unruly, remember that you're supposed to take them to the edge of your town and stone them to death."

I don't have a problem with people not buying into theological constructions I believe. I just hate it when people keep themselves imbeciles because they like being hostile or because ONLY RELIGIOUS BOOKS REQUIRE NO CONTEXT, PRIOR KNOWLEDGE, OR EVEN A COMPLETE READ.

Well as usual that's not providing any kind of answer whatsoever.
I don't know, I can't see any context (apart from a simple "nah guys scratch that, just kidding") that would offer a reasonnable explanation for such words.

And I still don't understand why it would require so much context and interpretation for what is supposedly the word of an omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving, righteous and morally perfect supreme being.

And again, EVEN IF, that's really a fucked up way to put things.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Atheism is not a belief, it's the absence of belief. In a god. How exactly would you troll that? Really, give me an example, I'm curious.

I know this is a famous argument but....Atheism is a belief. A belief is not limited to the imaginary or the "real", it encompasses both. The problem is, both Christianity AND Atheism use faith in the seen or unseen to come to a logical conclusion.

It takes a certain amount of faith (even if it's placed in textbooks, reasoning or Steven Hawking) or belief to say a definitive statement such as "there is no God". Why? Because you cannot undoubtedly prove it - just as the Christian cannot undoubtedly prove God. Well Why should an Atheist have to argue against something so silly? They really shouldn't. But when they do their motives betray them. The absence of a belief pretty much means you have no opinion on the subject. When you argue for or against it is considered a belief even if that belief is true. I don't believe in God is a belief, and atheist seeing this problem of belief have re-worded this statement as the absence of belief.

And anyway Atheist have faith that the Christians are either lying or delusional. They believe that people who do believe in God are not as intelligent or are suffering from some mental lapse. They believe that God can't exist because there's no way a "good God" would allow suffering yet at the same time they believe that their reasoning and ethical values are greater than a proposed "good God".

I won't even delve into the proper term or definition of belief and how everything falls into that category; even something as "evident" as our sensory experiences.

 

[Majine]

It's this sort of uninformed bullshit that shits these threads up.

Persecution of homosexuals is in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM a part of modern Christian doctrine.

Never said it was but It's in the bible so obviously it's part of it's teachings. If you aren't suppose to take it literally, then how the fuck can you form moral choices based on The Bible.

It's these little embasarassing bits that really exposes religion, and in particular christianity, for what it really is: An organisation constantly looking to appeal to people.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I know this is a famous argument but....Atheism is a belief. A belief is not limited to the imaginary or the "real", it encompasses both. The problem is, both Christianity AND Atheism use faith in the seen or unseen to come to a logical conclusion.

It takes a certain amount of faith (even if it's placed in textbooks, reasoning or Steven Hawking) or belief to say a definitive statement such as "there is no God". Why? Because you cannot undoubtedly prove it - just as the Christian cannot undoubtedly prove God. Well Why should an Atheist have to argue against something so silly? They really shouldn't. But when they do their motives betray them. The absence of a belief pretty much means you have no opinion on the subject. When you argue for or against it is considered a belief even if that belief is true. I don't believe in God is a belief, and atheist seeing this problem of belief have re-worded this statement as the absence of belief.

And anyway Atheist have faith that the Christians are either lying or delusional. They believe that people who do believe in God are not as intelligent or are suffering from some mental lapse. They believe that God can't exist because there's no way a "good God" would allow suffering yet at the same time they believe that their reasoning and ethical values are greater than a proposed "good God".

I won't even delve into the proper term or definition of belief and how everything falls into that category; even something as "evident" as our sensory experiences.

Good God, I would let all the Christians here chop my nuts off if only it would stop people saying Atheism is a belief. I don't even know why it bugs me, but it does.

 

[KtSlime]

Foxy Fox 39 is an apegasiist, I knew it all along.

 

[Monocle]

Odds are better that I'd be summarily ignored. How do I know this? I've done it on more than one occasion. Understand that a properly fleshed out, academic response would take some time and effort that I'm no longer willing to put in because it would fall on deaf ears. To criticize Christians for being ignorant for not seeing the "TRUTH" of the universe is frankly hypocritical and counter-intuitive to your greater goal of being better respected, simply because you're acting exactly as bad as the fundamentalist vocal minority that represents Christianity. It's a real shame, but instead of being a righteous voice for equality and fair treatment, you cry out how the world would be a better place without religion. I frankly don't care what you believe. If you're a good person, that's enough for me, and it's enough for most people. Call a douches a douches and don't make empty connections. I am my brother's keeper, this much is clear from my faith, but those who don't believe are as much brothers as those who do, and as my brother's keeper, I say to those trolling the faithful of all stripes in this thread: quit being a douche.

I'm going to leave the strawmen where they lie and just say this: It's unfortunate that you're insulted by the kind of challenge to your religious beliefs that any temperate person would shrug off if the subject were their taste in films or their politics. Constructive discussion is impossible when one side rushes to take offense. I question because I want to know. I challenge because I want to understand. If this attitude meets your criteria for being a "douche," then honestly, you'd probably be doing everyone favor by choosing not to pollute this conversation with your skewed sensitivities.

 

[Ichabod]

Between:

A)I'm the creation of all-powerful God who forged the world I live in and has given me an existence that will one day transcend beyond the mortal veil.

and

B)I'm nothing more than the by-product of millions of years of mind boggling coincidences, here to live an insignificant existence before I die and fade to nothing.

I choose A).

 

[travisbickle]

Honest question:


Jesus was the ultimate socialist, why do Americans (predominantly Christian country) hate socialism?

 

[GhaleonQ]

Well as usual that's not providing any kind of answer whatsoever.
I don't know, I can't see any context (apart from a simple "nah guys scratch that, just kidding") that would offer a reasonnable explanation for such words.

And I still don't understand why it would require so much context and interpretation for what is supposedly the word of an omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving, righteous and morally perfect supreme being.

And again, EVEN IF, that's really a fucked up way to put things.

That's true, but I'm not trying to be irritating. I'm just not trying to convince you that the Bible's belief system is right. I don't think that's the best way to convince people to convert, I don't think it's the RIGHT way to convince people to convert, and I don't think you can get to the Bible's actual explanation of goodness from whatever ideology and experience has formed your goodness. So, I'm not bothering.

The original post and the offending post were about INTERNAL consistency, which matters greatly to me, a Missouri Synod Lutheran.

The 2nd point's way off-topic, but I'd be open to it since this topic's a mess. 1. If a magnanimous god existed, would you want, basically, a Levitical list from It detailing every possible problem and the right solution? 2. Is this the biblical conception of God or of knowledge, meaning that it's internally inconsistent? (I'd say no.)

Jesus was the ultimate socialist,

Show your work.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

I think you may have a point. However, one would think that if religion truly did make people more moral, Christians would be underrepresented in prison populations.

Or is it that preachers very often evangelize in prisons because the people are most susceptible to listening whether it be because they have no hope or whatever else?

I know more than 4 pastors personally who evangelize in Prisons...

 

[Raist]

Per capita, so are black people to white people. Are you saying that black people are bad for society too? I mean, there couldn't be anything like socio-economic issues or anything like that.

Spoiler

See what I did there?

I hope you're not serious because that's a terrible analogy :/

 

[Seda]

Never said it was but It's in the bible so obviously it's part of it's teachings. If you aren't suppose to take it literally, then how the fuck can you form moral choices based on The Bible.

It's these little embasarassing bits that really exposes religion, and in particular christianity, for what it really is: An organisation constantly looking to appeal to people.

Are you saying people who don't take the bible literally can't use it for moral guidelines?

What about aesops fables?

(Again, I'm not being coy)

 

[Door2Dawn]

Honest question:


Jesus was the ultimate socialist, why do Americans (predominantly Christian country) hate socialism?

anyone who says they hate socialism probably doesn't know what socialism is.

 

[Uchip]

Between:

A)I'm the creation of all-powerful God who forged the world I live in and has given me an existence that will one day transcend beyond the mortal veil.

and

B)I'm nothing more than the by-product of millions of years of mind boggling coincidences, here to live an insignificant existence before I die and fade to nothing.

I choose A).

ironically it is us who created god and forged the modern world

 

[Juanadams]

Between:

A)I'm the creation of all-powerful God who forged the world I live in and has given me an existence that will one day transcend beyond the mortal veil.

and

B)I'm nothing more than the by-product of millions of years of mind boggling coincidences, here to live an insignificant existence before I die and fade to nothing.

I choose A).

Well Greek gods sound more fun to me so i'm gonna pick that one.

 

[crazy monkey]

Is God saying that he's going to moon Moses? I wonder if he posts on 4chan?

so you just made this to troll eh.

 

[nyong]

Good God, I would let all the Christians here chop my nuts off if only it would stop people saying Atheism is a belief. I don't even know why it bugs me, but it does.

It really is, though. The default answer for every group of human beings in recorded history is that the supernatural exists. To flip this around and proclaim that God(s) do not exist, as a statement of fact, in defiance of the norm, is the exact same thing as stating a belief. In any case, GAF spends an awful lot of time and energy defending something they supposedly don't believe in, not to mention attacking people who believe otherwise.

It's not a religion, but it's certainly a belief...even a belief system in some cases (given modern philosophical reasonings).

 

[Majine]

Are you saying people who don't take the bible literally can't use it for moral guidelines?

What about aesops fables?

(Again, I'm not being coy)

Considering how vague it apparently is, you shouldn't.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Between:

A)I'm the creation of all-powerful God who forged the world I live in and has given me an existence that will one day transcend beyond the mortal veil.

and

B)I'm nothing more than the by-product of millions of years of mind boggling coincidences, here to live an insignificant existence before I die and fade to nothing.

I choose A).

I can play this game too:

Between:

A) I'm the creation of a supposed all-powerful tyrant king who gave me the free will to believe in him or burn in eternal hellfire

and

B) I'm the by-product of shit that went boom, bang and shazam in the night for a bajillion years and created the greatness that is me

I choose B

It really is, though. The default answer for every group of human beings in recorded history is that the supernatural exists. To flip this around and proclaim that God(s) do not exist, as a statement of fact, in defiance of the norm, is the exact same thing as stating a belief.

It's not a religion, but it's certainly a belief...even a belief system in some cases (given modern philosophical reasonings).

In all honesty, what is the point of this argument though? It is ironic to ask in a thread that is just trolling (yes, I think so), but I see this as a counter-troll argument against Atheists. All I want to know is this: if Atheism is a belief, what does it matter to Christians either way?

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

So is putting homosexuals to death.

In what scripture did Christ say put homosexuals to death?

 

[Orayn]

Between:

A)I'm the creation of all-powerful God who forged the world I live in and has given me an existence that will one day transcend beyond the mortal veil.

and

B)I'm nothing more than the by-product of millions of years of mind boggling coincidences, here to live an insignificant existence before I die and fade to nothing.

I choose A).

You're presenting a bit of a false dichotomy, aren't you? There are plenty of gods who are pretty hard for even their followers to please, and that's a blatantly cynical take on how a non-theist might look at the world.

It really is, though. The default answer for every group of human beings in recorded history is that the supernatural exists. To flip this around and proclaim that God(s) do not exist, as a statement of fact, in defiance of the norm, is the exact same thing as stating a belief.

1. Fact is not determined by majority opinion.
2. The majority of atheists may bungle their wording at times, but they do not deal in purely negative claims. They simply see a lack of evidence and will not recognize an entity called "god" whose existence is vaguely defined, and in their eyes, totally unsupported by any sort of tangible data.

 

[KtSlime]

Between:

A)I'm the creation of all-powerful God who forged the world I live in and has given me an existence that will one day transcend beyond the mortal veil.

and

B)I'm nothing more than the by-product of millions of years of mind boggling coincidences, here to live an insignificant existence before I die and fade to nothing.

I choose A).

"I don't understand, so God did it!"

 

[THRILLH0]

Never said it was but It's in the bible so obviously it's part of it's teachings. If you aren't suppose to take it literally, then how the fuck can you form moral choices based on The Bible.

You're not supposed to take your moral bearing from every literal word of a document that's over 3000 years old.

If you want to play that game you'd be interested to know that according to one of your founding fathers, you're not even a true American. (If you are in fact not American, I apologise but the example still stands as a response to your statements)

"Religion is the basis and foundation of government ... before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe." - James Madison

The point is: viewpoints change over time.

One of the great things about modern religion is it's flexibility. This is particularly relevant in the Catholic faith which is demonstrated in their willingness to embrace evolution in recent years.

 

[Door2Dawn]

I can play this game too:

Between:

A) I'm the creation of a supposed all-powerful tyrant king who gave me the free will to believe in him or burn in eternal hellfire

and

B) I'm the by-product of shit that went boom, bang and shazam in the night for a bajillion years and created the greatness that is me

I choose B

Free will is nice isn't it"?

 

[legend166]

You said no such thing. Have you already forgotten what you posted?



Once you mention that you need to approach the bible in faith, every argument you make out the window. What is faith? It is a belief held without reason and against all reason to the contrary. By stating that I should have held faith in the bible's preachings while reading it in order to understand it is absurd. If you didn't mean that, I would recommend reexamining what you were trying to communicate and try again.

He's not talking about that kind of faith.

 

[Mortrialus]

I could be a total douche to you right now, but this is hilarious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_faith It sort of means "honest intent."

I actually laughed on my end of this Internet connection. Can we end this now? That term is used in law, debate, religious study, and academia. It's not an obscure phrase. Again, I think that you're arguing just to argue, not because you bring something useful to argument.

That is a faux pas on my part and I officially feel silly. That said, you operate on the false assumptions that I have never read the bible in its entirety, which I have, and that I went in wanting to hate it, which I didn't. I was in private catholic schooling for most of my early life. I was generally fed the more family friendly aspects of it. Not long after leaving said catholic school I sat down to read the bible in its entirety, in good faith, and found it to be overall atrocious. Does it preach some good things? Yes but it also preaches a vast amount of absurd and frankly immoral things, including Jesus himself. I am also aware of the bible's history and how it was eventually canonized. You're right, I am being snarky for the sake of being snarky. I enjoy ribbing on some of the sillier aspects of the bible.

 

[The Lamp]

Good God, I would let all the Christians here chop my nuts off if only it would stop people saying Atheism is a belief. I don't even know why it bugs me, but it does.

Because everybody believes something, even if that something is nothing, right?

 

[Gospel]

Per capita, so are black people to white people. Are you saying that black people are bad for society too? I mean, there couldn't be anything like socio-economic issues or anything like that.

Spoiler

See what I did there?

i said damn.

this thread is heating up. will the Christians triumph over the evil power of Cell? find out next time on dragon ball z

 

[Monocle]

That, in turn, is a fair point that you make.

I would be curious as to how those statistics are gathered. I would propose to you that a proportion of people who identify themselves as Christian do not actually adhere to the Christian faith whereas those who identify themselves as atheists actively oppose it.

I personally know many people who have never attended mass in their lives but would write down Catholic on any form put in front of them because they were baptised at 3 months.

Does this same qualifier apply to the statistics regarding charitable contributions? Absolutely it does. But one of those behaviours is condoned - if not mandated - by Christianity and the other is in direct opposition to it.

I'm not trying to present this in support of my argument or saying that necessarily hurts your argument either way, but I would be curious to know more.

An awful lot of people do seem to "find Jesus" right after the bars slam shut. For all I know, a substantial percentage of imprisoned Christians could be pretenders. I'd be interested to know how many self-identifying Christian prisoners converted after their prosecution.

Or is it that preachers very often evangelize in prisons because the people are most susceptible to listening whether it be because they have no hope or whatever else?

I know more than 4 pastors personally who evangelize in Prisons...

Entirely possible.

 

[Juanadams]

It really is, though. The default answer for every group of human beings in recorded history is that the supernatural exists. To flip this around and proclaim that God(s) do not exist, as a statement of fact, in defiance of the norm, is the exact same thing as stating a belief.

It's not a religion, but it's certainly a belief...even a belief system in some cases (given modern philosophical reasonings).

Thats because throughout human history we have not had the advancements to know the science around us, so we turn to the easiest thing to believe in.

Just because its a defiance of the norm does not mean it is a belief, with the new information we have available to us today we should know better.

 

[KtSlime]

Are you saying people who don't take the bible literally can't use it for moral guidelines?

What about aesops fables?

(Again, I'm not being coy)

I think he's saying it can't be absolute law. You can use anything to frame morality, even modern pop culture has moral values in it. But he, like me knows that morality comes from humans, not from a divine source.

 

[Seda]

Because everybody believes something, even if that something is nothing, right?

The null set is a set i guess.

 

[nyong]

In all honesty, what is the point of this argument though? It is ironic to ask in a thread that is just trolling (yes, I think so), but I see this as a counter-troll argument against Atheists. All I want to know is this: if Atheism is a belief, what does it matter to Christians either way?

Because it puts their positions on equal ground (respect). By claiming their position is only natural and not a statement of belief, atheists are essentially saying that their position is the only logical conclusion to reach--the default conclusion--thereby shifting the entire burden of proof onto religion.

 

[Majine]

If you want to play that game you'd be interested to know that according to one of your founding fathers, you're not even a true American.

I already knew that What made you think I was american?

 

[Raist]

I know this is a famous argument but....Atheism is a belief. A belief is not limited to the imaginary or the "real", it encompasses both. The problem is, both Christianity AND Atheism use faith in the seen or unseen to come to a logical conclusion.

It takes a certain amount of faith (even if it's placed in textbooks, reasoning or Steven Hawking) or belief to say a definitive statement such as "there is no God". Why? Because you cannot undoubtedly prove it - just as the Christian cannot undoubtedly prove God.

I think you're slightly mixing up atheism and science here. They're completely separate by essence. But anyway, you cannot prove that something doesn't exist, so the point is moot.

The rest is just associating personal opinions or statements with atheism.

As for this:

I don't believe in God is a belief

Really? So if I say "I don't drink alcohol" I'm an alcoholic?

Entirely possible.

And kind of fucked up if you think about it.

 

[Blair]

Between:

A)I'm the creation of all-powerful God who forged the world I live in and has given me an existence that will one day transcend beyond the mortal veil.

and

B)I'm nothing more than the by-product of millions of years of mind boggling coincidences, here to live an insignificant existence before I die and fade to nothing.

I choose A).

i am humbled that i'm alive and i live my life in awe of our universe, its history and the mysteries still out there for us to discover.


your attitude is fucking shameful.

 

[THRILLH0]

An awful lot of people do seem to "find Jesus" right after the bars slam shut. For all I know, a substantial percentage of imprisoned Christians could be pretenders. I'd be interested to know how many self-identifying Christian prisoners converted after their prosecution.

I agree with you.

In the spirit of transparency I will concede that the statistics i've seen report on what faith convicted prisoners identify themselves as PRIOR to entering prison, i.e. before any "conversion" takes place.

 

[THRILLH0]

I already knew that What made you think I was american?

Sorry, just going by the law of averages on GAF. No offense intended either way

 

[Mortrialus]

An awful lot of people do seem to "find Jesus" right after the bars slam shut. For all I know, a substantial percentage of imprisoned Christians could be pretenders. I'd be interested to know how many self-identifying Christian prisoners converted after their prosecution.


Entirely possible.

Indeed. Becoming religious or at least putting on the facade of it looks good when trying to get parole. Not to mention the amount of religious officials who actively try to convert inside prisons. The numbers for theists, Christians in particular, in prison is naturally going to increase. That said, its still a fun correlative statistic to throw back at Christians when they throw others at you.

I don't believe in God is a belief,

Is not collecting stamps a hobby?

 

[NullPointer]

This thread will end on the matter of faith, with some finding it necessary and others finding it nonsense.

 

[Orayn]

Because it puts their positions on equal ground (respect). By claiming their position is only natural and not a statement of belief, atheists are essentially saying that their position is the only logical conclusion to reach--the default conclusion--thereby shifting the entire burden of proof onto religion.

And why shouldn't it be on religion? The theists are the ones making a positive claim, at least within the framework of methodological naturalism, which has proved to be pretty Goddamn reliable thus far.

 

[Uchip]

This thread will end on the matter of faith, with some finding it necessary and others finding it nonsense.

 

[Bungalow Bob]

post

Can you just answer the questions I posed in the OP?