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Classic games that have aged badly

I don't really think this is true for many if any games, and a lot of the games people say it for were not good at release. You just kind of have to remember to not compare what you're playing to other games you've played.

I think Goldeneye is fine if you don't use default control scheme.

Jet Force Gemini on the other hand controls, plays, and feels like crap. It might be an example of it, though I honestly don't remember much about it other than playing it at friends' houses near release and not thinking much of it, so maybe it was at release.

I also think the Resident Evil-style tank controls ALWAYS sucked and were completely unacceptable.

Also, every Zelda and Sonic Adventure game has aged fine. I dare even say that I like OoT more now that I'm not a kid and don't get stuck at puzzles a lot.
 
7 aged better than 8 and 9.

7 looks uglier, but it plays well. It's responsive and legible. 8 and 9 just get progressively more sluggish and the complexity of the environments works against the games more than anything.

I would say it hasn't. The spectacle of FF7 gives it a free pass, especially at the time, but the game's coding in general is a mess. It speaks to how good the game is despite all the bugs and glitches though, don't get me wrong, but I for one will not miss most of that game's jank in the new version.
 
Computers invented first person shooters. Everything that exists today in the genre is from PC's. Halo and Cod wouldnt exist without goldeneye ? You're giving credit to the game when there isnt one. Halo was a PC only game for years until Microsoft bought Bungie and made it for console. Its design is an amalgam of Half Life, Unreal and Tribes. Call of Duty was a PC only game for years ... Its design that uses ultra scripted sequences came from Allied Assault, two years prior, which design was a transformation of Half Life's concepts.

If Goldeneye woudnt have existed at all im confident the world we live in would be exactly the same. It influenced nothing and changed nothing.
No. Goldeneye sold more than Halo. Sold more than Half Life or any other shooter. It was the highest selling FPS of all time. It was the first ever FPS system seller. Microsoft 100% bought Halo for Xbox because they saw a shooter could be a console system seller.
 
No. Goldeneye sold more than Halo. Sold more than Half Life or any other shooter. It was the highest selling FPS of all time. It was the first ever FPS system seller. Microsoft 100% bought Halo for Xbox because they saw a shooter could be a console system seller.
From a marketing perspective - it possibly made Microsoft push for a FPS for launch. Gameplay perspective? Died with TimeSplitters Future Perfect in 2005.
 
I tend to agree with all the folks mentioning PS1 and N64 games.

I still regularly play NES and SNES games, but whenever I pull out the PS1 and especially the N64, I get annoyed or bored and end up turning it off after 30 minutes.

I probably spend as much time playing NES games as I do new releases. I love platformers, and the NES has a catalog of ones that are still astoundingly fun to this day.
 
Are you sure Goldeneye didn't do anything at all for the FPS genre? I'm not sure why you're always so adamant about downplaying Goldeneye's importance. The game actually had many little things that became the standard for shooters afterwards. Obviously the controls didn't transfer over to future shooters, but there was a lot of stuff that Goldeneye did first in the single player campaign that became normal for shooters to have afterwards.

For example, the fact that the enemies actually reacted to wherever you shot them specifically was crazy at the time. And the fact that if you were to shoot a loud gun somewhere in a level, enemies would actually hear the shots and come running after you from nearby rooms. Also, the death animations were pretty realistic for their time. The enemy AI was just insane. The whole game had this sense of realism to it that even PC shooters at the time didn't have. The levels gave you this sense of freedom where you could beat the level any way you want. You could just go through a level guns blazing, or you can actually sneak through the level stealthily by not alerting any guards. Little things like this made Goldeneye stand out from other shooters at the time, and these things basically became the norm for shooters afterwards. You could even argue that Goldeneye still does some of these things better than many modern shooters.....

It was also the first FPS on consoles to bring the multiplayer scene to the masses. Of course games like Halo and COD took things to a whole new level afterwards, but Goldeneye marks the first time a console FPS had millions of people playing it just for the multiplayer. The multiplayer was probably the biggest reason for Goldeneye's popularity.

It's always frustrating to see people downplay Goldeneye's importance for FPSs because "lol the controls suck". People seem to have forgotten about all the things the game did for the genre, and I'm not just talking about the multiplayer. It's no wonder why many shooters tried to imitate and outdo Goldeneye for years afterwards, even Rare's own Perfect Dark. Every new shooter that was released (at least on consoles) was always being compared with Goldeneye. For example, when EA picked up the Bond license after Goldeneye, they desperately tried to cash in on Goldeneye's popularity in the late 90s and early-mid 2000s with little to no success.

I'll admit that I may have undersold GoldenEye a little in my previous post. Pretty much anything that achieves that level of success will have some form of impact on the market, whether huge and lasting or not. However, I don't think anything in my post undersold GoldenEye to anywhere near the extent that some people (including yourself) oversell it's influence. To state something like "no GoldenEye, no Halo/COD" imo completely ridiculous considering the number of FPS games that were arriving on console from the moment Doom hit the SNES, and how GoldenEye didn't shape the mechanics of console FPS post-release. The consoles instead branched themselves off from the PC scene when the Dreamcast hit, and continued to be clumsy and ineffectual without a m+kb up until the release of Halo. Halo's solutions for making a console FPS work, was then embedded into pretty much every FPS to hit console from that point onwards, with Call of Duty later iterating upon the model slightly with ADS to produce what we have as the standard today.

Reactions to being shot different places is actually something I do think GoldenEye deserves some credit for popularizing in the FPS genre. It's not where I'd dump the primary credit however, which would very clearly be Virtua Cop that predates it by an entire 2 years, with nearly the exact same solution, and just so happens to be the type of game GoldenEye was initially planned to be. But in the realm of a free moving FPS, yes GoldenEye is the first notable example of this I can think of... excluding to an extent Team Fortress.

Enemies hearing sounds and responding to them wasn't actually uncommon by the time GoldenEye hit. Hell, you can probably recall enemies in Wolfenstein 3D exclaiming "what's that sound" (or something to that effect) when you make an audible noise in an adjacent room. AI really isn't anything unusual in GoldenEye, enemies pathfind their way to you (omnisciently) and unload shots, much in the way every other FPS game would. I can't help but think that you're accrediting the game having good animations with the enemies actually being intelligent.

First-person shooters were already evolving past Doom's maze and keys template. System Shock was already a thing in 1994, and PowerSlave/Exhumed was pretty much Metroid Prime back in 1996, and then there's the Marathon series... which I could get into for quite a long time... but as a quick summary, basically invalidates the idea that Halo was dependant on the existence of GoldenEye almost singlehandedly. On the PC side of the genre, there is a clear path of evolution from Wolf3D, through Doom, through various stuff like Marathon, System Shock and Quake, through to Unreal and Half-Life, without the requirement for GoldenEye ever happening on console. And as I said before the console market effectively branched off from the PC FPS market with the arrival of Quake III Arena, Hal-Life and the like the following generation, eschewing anything console-specific that had come up to that point. The problem then was that these PC focused FPS games didn't work well at all with a joypad, which was still a prominent issue years after GoldenEye (which also happens to actually play like ass with a joypad, and is the primary criticism for it today).

Split-screen multiplayer was brought to the masses by the N64, across every genre. That isn't something you credit either any individual game for, or split into any individual genre. Halo 2 for example gets a ton of credit for introducing the current matchmaking systems, progressing us from the standard server browsers of today... it's not simply because it was online, and games in all other genres aren't lauded for being the first of their genre to then use Halo 2's style of matchmaking. As I've mentioned numerous times before, Duke Nukem 64 was being developed simultaneously with splitscreen deathmatch and co-op campaign. This is unique to the N64 port of the game, and is absent from both the Saturn and PlayStation versions, owing to the N64's hardware facilitating this in a manner the other two console didn't... but this was very much the console, and not the game that brought this.

I'm not adamant about downplaying GoldenEye's influence... I just simply don't see it's popularity being directly related to its influence. If you can honestly look at what Bungie did with the Marathon games... with their complex story, dual-wielding weapons, friendly AI that helps in combat, general setting and plot, and aesthetics, and then seriously tell me "nah, Halo wasn't happening unless GoldenEye", then I really don't know what to tell you. GoldenEye was the biggest FPS on consoles (however it was NOT the first FPS to demonstrate consoles as a viable market... not even close)., but there's very little it actually introduced that has affected the genre today. Halo is a different matter, not because it was huge and popular, but because the things it did for playing an FPS with a gamepad, are actually things that everything else is using to make playing various FPS games with a gamepad work universally. Street Fighter 2 similarly isn't so influential simply for being a huge craze in the past... it's because today, you're still basically playing games directly deriving Street Fighter 2's template. GoldenEye's template died with Timesplitters, and wasn't used by basically anything else even before that.
 
Parasite Eve and Resident Evil 2. Damn near unplayable to me now.

And I only finished (and loved) PE for the first time a couple of months ago. RE2 is still a classic too.

I actually played and beat 7 for the first time last year and it instantly shot to one of my favorite games of all time, so in that sense i dont think it aged poorly, visually yeah but its still a blast

Even visually it wasn't that bad, since the prerendered backgrounds hold up well enough and they contribute most to the overall image. I too played it for the first time a couple of years ago. If there's a thing that has aged badly, then it's gotta be the painfully shoddy translation.

In fact, PS1 become one of my favorite consoles only retroactively with PSN, because as a kid I could only play other people's Playstations. The 32/64bit games that age really badly were most likely average to begin with, or maybe they are in a genre that requires realism like sports.
 
I'll admit that I may have undersold GoldenEye a little in my previous post. Pretty much anything that achieves that level of success will have some form of impact on the market, whether huge and lasting or not. However, I don't think anything in my post undersold GoldenEye to anywhere near the extent that some people (including yourself) oversell it's influence. To state something like "no GoldenEye, no Halo/COD" imo completely ridiculous considering the number of FPS games that were arriving on console from the moment Doom hit the SNES, and how GoldenEye didn't shape the mechanics of console FPS post-release. The consoles instead branched themselves off from the PC scene when the Dreamcast hit, and continued to be clumsy and ineffectual without a m+kb up until the release of Halo. Halo's solutions for making a console FPS work, was then embedded into pretty much every FPS to hit console from that point onwards, with Call of Duty later iterating upon the model slightly with ADS to produce what we have as the standard today.

Reactions to being shot different places is actually something I do think GoldenEye deserves some credit for popularizing in the FPS genre. It's not where I'd dump the primary credit however, which would very clearly be Virtua Cop that predates it by an entire 2 years, with nearly the exact same solution, and just so happens to be the type of game GoldenEye was initially planned to be. But in the realm of a free moving FPS, yes GoldenEye is the first notable example of this I can think of... excluding to an extent Team Fortress.

Enemies hearing sounds and responding to them wasn't actually uncommon by the time GoldenEye hit. Hell, you can probably recall enemies in Wolfenstein 3D exclaiming "what's that sound" (or something to that effect) when you make an audible noise in an adjacent room. AI really isn't anything unusual in GoldenEye, enemies pathfind their way to you (omnisciently) and unload shots, much in the way every other FPS game would. I can't help but think that you're accrediting the game having good animations with the enemies actually being intelligent.

First-person shooters were already evolving past Doom's maze and keys template. System Shock was already a thing in 1994, and PowerSlave/Exhumed was pretty much Metroid Prime back in 1996, and then there's the Marathon series... which I could get into for quite a long time... but as a quick summary, basically invalidates the idea that Halo was dependant on the existence of GoldenEye almost singlehandedly. On the PC side of the genre, there is a clear path of evolution from Wolf3D, through Doom, through various stuff like Marathon, System Shock and Quake, through to Unreal and Half-Life, without the requirement for GoldenEye ever happening on console. And as I said before the console market effectively branched off from the PC FPS market with the arrival of Quake III Arena, Hal-Life and the like the following generation, eschewing anything console-specific that had come up to that point. The problem then was that these PC focused FPS games didn't work well at all with a joypad, which was still a prominent issue years after GoldenEye (which also happens to actually play like ass with a joypad, and is the primary criticism for it today).

Split-screen multiplayer was brought to the masses by the N64, across every genre. That isn't something you credit either any individual game for, or split into any individual genre. Halo 2 for example gets a ton of credit for introducing the current matchmaking systems, progressing us from the standard server browsers of today... it's not simply because it was online, and games in all other genres aren't lauded for being the first of their genre to then use Halo 2's style of matchmaking. As I've mentioned numerous times before, Duke Nukem 64 was being developed simultaneously with splitscreen deathmatch and co-op campaign. This is unique to the N64 port of the game, and is absent from both the Saturn and PlayStation versions, owing to the N64's hardware facilitating this in a manner the other two console didn't... but this was very much the console, and not the game that brought this.

I'm not adamant about downplaying GoldenEye's influence... I just simply don't see it's popularity being directly related to its influence. If you can honestly look at what Bungie did with the Marathon games... with their complex story, dual-wielding weapons, friendly AI that helps in combat, general setting and plot, and aesthetics, and then seriously tell me "nah, Halo wasn't happening unless GoldenEye", then I really don't know what to tell you. GoldenEye was the biggest FPS on consoles (however it was NOT the first FPS to demonstrate consoles as a viable market... not even close)., but there's very little it actually introduced that has affected the genre today. Halo is a different matter, not because it was huge and popular, but because the things it did for playing an FPS with a gamepad, are actually things that everything else is using to make playing various FPS games with a gamepad work universally. Street Fighter 2 similarly isn't so influential simply for being a huge craze in the past... it's because today, you're still basically playing games directly deriving Street Fighter 2's template. GoldenEye's template died with Timesplitters, and wasn't used by basically anything else even before that.

Haha thanks for responding to my post. I was hoping you'd see it. :P

I'll admit that I was maybe overselling Goldeneye's influence just a bit by saying that Halo and COD wouldn't exist without it. When I say that, I don't mean that these games wouldn't have existed without Goldeneye indefinitely. I'm just saying that Goldeneye came out first and was popular way before these games existed. Maybe there were a few other games that proved that console shooters were viable before GE, but GE was the first one that really caught people's attention and brought console shooters to the mainstream. For all I know, Halo could have existed without GE anyway, but the fact of the matter is that such a popular game like GE already existed way beforehand. Didn't it actually sell more than Halo as well?

There's not much point delving into hypothetical scenarios because what's happened in reality has happened. It doesn't really matter whether Halo would have existed anyway because it's not a known fact whether it would've or not. What is a fact is that Goldeneye came out first and popularized console shooters years before Halo. So in that sense, it definitely paved the way for games like Halo and COD. And for this reason, I think Goldeneye should be given all the credit it deserves in regards to this.

I'll admit that I'm not entirely knowledgeable about many of the PC shooters that came out before Goldeneye, but I've always heard that there were many things it did that no other shooters had really done before it. Such as the aforementioned specific hit detection reactions and possibly some of the other things the AI did. As someone else mentioned in this thread already, the objective based mission design was also pretty unique at the time, but for some reason, future shooters didn't really take anything from this aspect of Goldeneye strangely enough (besides just simply having objectives, although I don't know if objectives worked the same way in shooters that came out before GE). Wasn't the sniper rifle something Goldeneye introduced to the genre as well? Or at least did it really well in comparison to other shooters? Sorry if I'm completely off base here. Like I said, I'm not really well versed on PC shooters. :P

Basically all I'm saying is that Goldeneye was the first popular console FPS to prove that shooters could work on consoles if done well. This later paved the way for games like Halo and COD to work their magic on consoles, and that's why I think Goldeneye should deserve some credit here. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that at least. The game sold around 8 million copies and is fondly remembered (if not still played) by many and is widely regarded as a classic. It had to have done something right.

I swear I also remember reading somewhere that Goldeneye influenced Half Life in some way, shape or form. Is this true? I wouldn't be surprised if some aspects of Goldeneye seeped into some PC shooters that came out afterwards. Again, sorry if I'm completely off base here.
 
I'm talking about everything that wasn't GoldenEye. Even GoldenEye's followups and spiritual successors didn't have its success rub off on it, and nothing else even used its gameplay mechanics.

SO what you're saying is you don't think Bungie looked at Goldeneye's success at all when they were in the midst of that game's identity crisis and thought about the opportunity of making the next great couch coop (and beyond) shooter on console?
 
I'll admit that I'm not entirely knowledgeable about many of the PC shooters that came out before Goldeneye, but I've always heard that there were many things it did that no other shooters had really done before it. Such as the aforementioned specific hit detection reactions and possibly some of the other things the AI did. As someone else mentioned in this thread already, the objective based mission design was also pretty unique at the time, but for some reason, future shooters didn't really take anything from this aspect of Goldeneye strangely enough (besides just simply having objectives, although I don't know if objectives worked the same way in shooters that came out before GE). Wasn't the sniper rifle something Goldeneye introduced to the genre as well? Or at least did it really well in comparison to other shooters? Sorry if I'm completely off base here. Like I said, I'm not really well versed on PC shooters. :P

There were some unique and innovative shooters like System Shock, Terminator Future Shock or Dark Forces

Eg for the latter (Techtite review):
The 3D game engine was made by LucasArts and includes several tweaks not seen in Doom, including the ability to jump, duck, tread water, and perform other amusing real-life maneuvers. There was also far more searching and thinking involved, as opposed to just running around and shooting everything. Sound effects from the movie series itself helped, and battle scenes were played for PG-rated action and suspense, not R-rated blood and gore. In truth, this was so much more fun than Doom, I give it the same rating. However, it was, to be fair, not an original concept, so I can only call it a "tie"

Electric Playground review:
It marked the first time a player could truly explore a 3D environment. The ability to look up or down, crouch and jump foreshadowed the emergence of the 3D platform game that is now the genre du jour. Dark Forces was more than an extension of Doom, it was an achievement all on its own; but beyond that it was simply a blast to play.
 
System Shock 2. I love immersive sims and think while some like Deus Ex and Thief have aged very well, System Shock 2's level design and combat don't exactly entice me to replay it.
 
It also one of those games where you hear about its troubled development and you go: "Oh now it all makes sense."

You're right!

Secret of Mana was originally planned to be a launch title for the SNES-CD add-on.[26][27] After the contract between Nintendo and Sony to produce the add-on failed, and Sony repurposed its work on the SNES-CD into the competing PlayStation console, Square adapted the game for the SNES cartridge format. The game had to be altered to fit the storage space of a SNES game cartridge, which is much smaller than that of a CD-ROM.[28] The developers initially resisted continuing the project without the CD add-on, believing that too much of the game would have to be cut, but they were overruled by company management. As a result of the hardware change, several features had to be cut from the game, and some completed work needed to be redone.[24][27] Most major of these removals was the option to take multiple routes through the game that led to several possible endings, in contrast to the linear journey in the final product.[7] The plot that remained was different than the original conception, and Tanaka has said that the original story had a much darker tone.[24] Ishii has estimated that up to forty percent of the planned game was dropped to meet the space limitations, and critics have suggested that the hardware change led to technical problems when too much happens at once in the game.[24][29] In 2006, Level magazine claimed that Secret of Mana's rocky development was Square's main inspiration to move their games, such as the Final Fantasy series, from Nintendo consoles to Sony consoles in 1996.[24]
 
I'll admit that I may have undersold GoldenEye a little in my previous post. Pretty much anything that achieves that level of success will have some form of impact on the market, whether huge and lasting or not. However, I don't think anything in my post undersold GoldenEye to anywhere near the extent that some people (including yourself) oversell it's influence. To state something like "no GoldenEye, no Halo/COD" imo completely ridiculous considering the number of FPS games that were arriving on console from the moment Doom hit the SNES, and how GoldenEye didn't shape the mechanics of console FPS post-release. The consoles instead branched themselves off from the PC scene when the Dreamcast hit, and continued to be clumsy and ineffectual without a m+kb up until the release of Halo. Halo's solutions for making a console FPS work, was then embedded into pretty much every FPS to hit console from that point onwards, with Call of Duty later iterating upon the model slightly with ADS to produce what we have as the standard today.
Every thread the same nonsense.

Goldeneye invented dual analogue control. For that alone it could win the most influential console shooter of all time award.

Goldeneye was the highest selling shooter of all time, console or PC, until Halo 2 (and Halo 2 only even got to that number because it was essentially on two consoles due to it continuing selling by BC on the Xbox 360).

Your premise seems based on the deeply flawed idea that Timesplitters = Goldeneye 2. But Timeslitters was Goldeneye's multiplayer gameplay (not really the methodical single player) taken in a wacky speed-run Serious Sam-like direction. Goldeneye was a very different game to any of the Timeslitters games, despite them cloning its basic interfaces. Timeslitters is not Goldeneye's only legacy.

In actual reality, Goldeneye showed millions more people than any other game at the time (it sold more than four times any Turok) that shooters worked on consoles. It was the game that broke up the shooting with mission objectives beyond 'kill everything, hit switch' that Doom/Quake/Duke/Turok were stuck in. It had more balanced weapons for particular uses, and for strategy, not just 'more powerful big bang' ones.

Halo sold less than Goldeneye. It can not possibly have 'influenced more people' when literally less copies were sold. And if we're talking influence on the genre/developers, Perfect Dark and Half Life, while lower sellers, introduced many more things that would become standard in both single player and multiplayer.
 
Every thread the same nonsense.

Goldeneye invented dual analogue control. For that alone it could win the most influential console shooter of all time award.

How do you invent dual analog control on a platform where the default controller only has one analog stick?
 
Goldeneye 007.
Banjo Kazooie and Tooie would be up there as well but they were always bad.

Yeah, the last time I tried, I didn't have a good time playing Goldeneye 007 either, but I think that's because I've gotten used to M+KB shooters -- and, honestly, I don't think I'm able to enjoy any first-person game as much with a controller as with a mouse.

I somewhat agree on Banjo-Kazooie; the node reset on death/level exit is terrible and hard to accept today, but playing it on an emulator with the option to save anywhere, that wasn't really an issue the last time I played through it. In fact, that encouraged me to finally 100% the game. I might actually play it yet again at some point.
 
XIII, I loved the game at the time, but it has these legacy strafing controls from the N64 era (even though it was a gen 6 title) which makes it really hard to get back into. However the presentation, story, and Adam West are all still top notch.
 
Haha thanks for responding to my post. I was hoping you'd see it. :P

I'll admit that I was maybe overselling Goldeneye's influence just a bit by saying that Halo and COD wouldn't exist without it. When I say that, I don't mean that these games wouldn't have existed without Goldeneye indefinitely. I'm just saying that Goldeneye came out first and was popular way before these games existed. Maybe there were a few other games that proved that console shooters were viable before GE, but GE was the first one that really caught people's attention and brought console shooters to the mainstream. For all I know, Halo could have existed without GE anyway, but the fact of the matter is that such a popular game like GE already existed way beforehand. Didn't it actually sell more than Halo as well?

There's not much point delving into hypothetical scenarios because what's happened in reality has happened. It doesn't really matter whether Halo would have existed anyway because it's not a known fact whether it would've or not. What is a fact is that Goldeneye came out first and popularized console shooters years before Halo. So in that sense, it definitely paved the way for games like Halo and COD. And for this reason, I think Goldeneye should be given all the credit it deserves in regards to this.

I'll admit that I'm not entirely knowledgeable about many of the PC shooters that came out before Goldeneye, but I've always heard that there were many things it did that no other shooters had really done before it. Such as the aforementioned specific hit detection reactions and possibly some of the other things the AI did. As someone else mentioned in this thread already, the objective based mission design was also pretty unique at the time, but for some reason, future shooters didn't really take anything from this aspect of Goldeneye strangely enough (besides just simply having objectives, although I don't know if objectives worked the same way in shooters that came out before GE). Wasn't the sniper rifle something Goldeneye introduced to the genre as well? Or at least did it really well in comparison to other shooters? Sorry if I'm completely off base here. Like I said, I'm not really well versed on PC shooters. :P

Basically all I'm saying is that Goldeneye was the first popular console FPS to prove that shooters could work on consoles if done well. This later paved the way for games like Halo and COD to work their magic on consoles, and that's why I think Goldeneye should deserve some credit here. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that at least. The game sold around 8 million copies and is fondly remembered (if not still played) by many and is widely regarded as a classic. It had to have done something right.

I swear I also remember reading somewhere that Goldeneye influenced Half Life in some way, shape or form. Is this true? I wouldn't be surprised if some aspects of Goldeneye seeped into some PC shooters that came out afterwards. Again, sorry if I'm completely off base here.

Yea, GoldenEye sold more than Halo CE. There are a few stipulations that I think make that distinction a little wonky, as the Xbox didn't have a prior Mario 64 driving initial adoption. Halo had to be the Xbox's Mario 64, allowing for other games on the platform to sell afterwards. It's a bit like how Mario Kart Wii sold something ridiculous like 35mil.. but it's also clear that Mario Kart isn't a system seller to that extent, as without the Wii's inflated userbase the series can't sell that much otherwise. Halo was also followed up with Halo 2, which would have eaten into its longer tail sales, by selling more than either GoldenEye or Halo CE. Perfect Dark certainly didn't have the same effect on GoldenEye. Overall though, yes, GoldenEye's popularity at the time is undeniable. That's not something I'd contest. I only contest its influence.

For the sniper rifle stuff, the two games that come immediately to mind for predating GoldenEye with similar mechanics would be MDK and Team Fortress. I wouldn't really credit either of those with being very influential in regards to this personally however, as a zoom mechanic is a legitimate no-brainer aspect inherent to the weapon itself. It's one of those things that technology (with so many prior FPS games not actually being 3D) would have been impeding more than imagination. I have no idea what FPS first handled non-hitscan projectiles, but similarly I wouldn't consider something so obviously inherent to the weapons themselves as being the inspiration for other games with similar weaponry.

In this previous post you've mentioned that multiple times that GoldenEye paved the way for other shooters on consoles. That I actually can agree with. The success of pretty much anything paves the way for further success of similar products... but I wouldn't say that those other products are necessarily influenced by the most successful on the other hand. You can typically see inspirations in what has actually been included in some form from a different game. So in regards to gameplay mechanics Street Fighter is massively more influential than Mortal Kombat, not because it came first... but because the vast majority of 2D fighters take directly from Street Fighter to this day, whilst Mortal Kombat's direct influences were more fleeting, with stuff like Killer Instinct, Primal Rage, Eternal Champions and the like taking influences from its finishing moves... and even then during the fight they tended to still be more based on Street Fighter. Another one that comes to mind is something like PlayStation... it's quite clear that Atari paved the way for everyone else in the home console industry, and then Nintendo later did the same to a larger extent (and to much, much greater influence), but despite Sega being notably smaller in success, there's more clear influences in the design of the PlayStation, and Sony's approach to the market from 90s Sega imo, despite the project initially being a collaboration with Nintendo (in response to the Sega CD however). The console's 3D prowess was influenced directly by what Sega was doing in the arcades at the time, the marketing effectively one-upped Sega's more "xtreme" approach to appeal to an older audience, and they took a more similar approach in working with publishers, rather than viewing it more as publishers working for them.

SO what you're saying is you don't think Bungie looked at Goldeneye's success at all when they were in the midst of that game's identity crisis and thought about the opportunity of making the next great couch coop (and beyond) shooter on console?

Not really, no. When id Software were in the midst of Quake's identity crisis, they looked back on their previous works and effectively created a sequel to Doom instead. I'd suggest that this would be the likely situation for Bungie with Marathon also.

Every thread the same nonsense.

Goldeneye invented dual analogue control. For that alone it could win the most influential console shooter of all time award.

Goldeneye was the highest selling shooter of all time, console or PC, until Halo 2 (and Halo 2 only even got to that number because it was essentially on two consoles due to it continuing selling by BC on the Xbox 360).

Your premise seems based on the deeply flawed idea that Timesplitters = Goldeneye 2. But Timeslitters was Goldeneye's multiplayer gameplay (not really the methodical single player) taken in a wacky speed-run Serious Sam-like direction. Goldeneye was a very different game to any of the Timeslitters games, despite them cloning its basic interfaces. Timeslitters is not Goldeneye's only legacy.

In actual reality, Goldeneye showed millions more people than any other game at the time (it sold more than four times any Turok) that shooters worked on consoles. It was the game that broke up the shooting with mission objectives beyond 'kill everything, hit switch' that Doom/Quake/Duke/Turok were stuck in. It had more balanced weapons for particular uses, and for strategy, not just 'more powerful big bang' ones.

Halo sold less than Goldeneye. It can not possibly have 'influenced more people' when literally less copies were sold. And if we're talking influence on the genre/developers, Perfect Dark and Half Life, while lower sellers, introduced many more things that would become standard in both single player and multiplayer.

The same nonsense in every thread is honestly you simply chiming in as though sales and influence are one and the same. Whilst credit is due to GoldenEye for implementing a dual-analog solution (and I'd only give it this credit because it wasn't simply inherent to the controller at the time)... to suggest that alone puts it in the running for most influential shooter ever is ludicrous imo. Even if we completely ignored that control system existing in GoldenEye (as most people would), and hand that mantle over to the next game everyone would cite as having it - Alien Resurrection - nobody in their right mind ever makes the argument for that game being the most influential anything because that alone means very little. Freedom to move and aim at the same time is the primary benefit of dual-analog over the standard GoldenEye system of movement being placed on the stick... and that doesn't require a second stick to overcome, you simply map the "WSAD" functions to the face buttons, which games like PowerSlave/Exhumed and Duke Nukem 3D had already implemented. This wasn't the problem that really need solving, and is why these games along with GoldenEye didn't actually solve the FPS on joypad issue. The issue was with the aiming itself, and the assistance that was required... and GoldenEye's solution to this was rejected by the entire industry.

Also, I'm not confusing Timesplitters as being a GoldenEye 2 (shouldn't it be GoldenEye 3 anyway in this case?). I'm citing Timesplitters because the team that made it (and GoldenEye) happen to be the only people that actually reproduced its mechanics in an FPS post GoldenEye. If I eliminate that link, then there's literally no games at all directly inheriting GoldenEye's mechanics.

Your arguments for GoldenEye are honestly really flimsy. You argue about most successful FPS at the time, ignoring anything that was most successful at any point before, as though 8mil is the magic number... you then don't consider this to make a following shooter more influential when it sells more... because now being first is more important. Popularity (and especially popularity that isn't sustained) is not equivalent to influence. If it were Wii Sports would be more influential than Mario... it's not though because look at how much Mario is in games since it came into existence... and then look at Wii Sports' legacy today. It's a shallow as fuck argument to make.
 
How do you invent dual analog control on a platform where the default controller only has one analog stick?
So you have not played the game?

There is an option to use two controllers for one player, full dual analogue FPS control in 1997.
 
It's always interesting how Genesis and SNES games very rarely ever make these sorts of threads.

I actually have a hard time thinking of games from that era that actually aged badly. All of the major titles from that era are still entirely playable by modern players, and wouldn't really be out of place if released these days.

True, and we see games like A Link Between worlds launch to critical acclaim, despite lifting its entire map and loads of its mechanics from ALTTP. Which isn't a negative for that game, more a testament to how well the formula has held up.

The Konami side scroller beatem ups. Ninja Turtles, Simpson's, ...

Snoozefest. Can be played blind folded.

They're really fun in co-op, but yeah the Turtles games are really boring by yourself. But maybe that's just because they're designed that way, not because they've aged badly.
 
True, and we see games like A Link Between worlds launch to critical acclaim, despite lifting its entire map and loads of its mechanics from ALTTP. Which isn't a negative for that game, more a testament to how well the formula has held up.
Yeah but the other reason for that is that the American games media has a huge hardon for Zelda, so any game that taps into that nostalgia is going to review well, good or bad.
 
Mario%20Kart%2064%20(U).png


Worst in the series. And I put about 1,000 hours into it.
This game was shit even when it came out. The SNES version is so much better.
 
Every thread the same nonsense.

Goldeneye invented dual analogue control. For that alone it could win the most influential console shooter of all time award.

Goldeneye was the highest selling shooter of all time, console or PC, until Halo 2 (and Halo 2 only even got to that number because it was essentially on two consoles due to it continuing selling by BC on the Xbox 360).

Your premise seems based on the deeply flawed idea that Timesplitters = Goldeneye 2. But Timeslitters was Goldeneye's multiplayer gameplay (not really the methodical single player) taken in a wacky speed-run Serious Sam-like direction. Goldeneye was a very different game to any of the Timeslitters games, despite them cloning its basic interfaces. Timeslitters is not Goldeneye's only legacy.

In actual reality, Goldeneye showed millions more people than any other game at the time (it sold more than four times any Turok) that shooters worked on consoles. It was the game that broke up the shooting with mission objectives beyond 'kill everything, hit switch' that Doom/Quake/Duke/Turok were stuck in. It had more balanced weapons for particular uses, and for strategy, not just 'more powerful big bang' ones.

Halo sold less than Goldeneye. It can not possibly have 'influenced more people' when literally less copies were sold. And if we're talking influence on the genre/developers, Perfect Dark and Half Life, while lower sellers, introduced many more things that would become standard in both single player and multiplayer.

That, my friend, is one shaky ass premise. That's like saying Avatar is the most influential movies ever simply because of ticket sales.

Halo has a greater influence by the sheer fact that more games took inspiration from mechanics and ideas it introduced than they ever did for Goldeneye. It doesn't matter if Halo sold 10 copies In the end. If it introduced console FPS mechanics that are literally still ring used to this day (which it did, in control scheme, campaign structure, and two weapon load outs), then it's more influential. Halo literally influenced the FPS genre in more ways than Goldenye did, by every possible metric (sales numbers isn't a metric of influence).
 
Idk if good games can age badly. Maybe your preferences and tolerances might change, but if it was a competent game then I don't see it being incompetent now?

Yeah, usually after some initial control fumbling things are fine IMO. I played the back half of MGS1 like 2 years ago and loved it. The only thing that annoyed me was that the game didn't tell me first person aiming suddenly works during the final driving sequence.

I actually had a harder time getting into MGS2 after, but it looked and controlled fine. The balance is just weird, because they give you perfect radar and aiming and then counter it with tougher enemies and objectives that involve taking a microscope to the environments sometimes. Still had fun once I got into it, but now I find I prefer Snake Eater. I had the opposite opinion in the mid 2000s.
 
"Aged badly" is somewhat subjective and depends on what you're used to

A 14 year old might say films from the 50s are unwatchable, and to them they may be, but that doesn't mean they're any lesser, nor does it mean they have actually aged badly

If you play older games or engage with mechanics and systems not all modern games use on a regular basis, you won't find that older games are too much of a problem to play

If you're used to autosave, open worlds, top notch graphics etc and that is 90% of what you play, then yeah, going back to a PS1 game is going to be rough

If you play loads of older games or retro games then it's not as much of an issue

I played FF7 for the first time in 2012 and found it to be fine, I'm sure many others will say it's aged badly

Yeah, you have taken the words out of my mouth.
 
Also, I'm not confusing Timesplitters as being a GoldenEye 2 (shouldn't it be GoldenEye 3 anyway in this case?). I'm citing Timesplitters because the team that made it (and GoldenEye) happen to be the only people that actually reproduced its mechanics in an FPS post GoldenEye. If I eliminate that link, then there's literally no games at all directly inheriting GoldenEye's mechanics.

That's actually not true. There were other shooters not made by Rare or Free Radical that inherited Goldeneye's mechanics. Like I said earlier in the thread, Goldeneye's popularity drove other developers to try to outdo the game. Have you never played any of EA's James Bond games? Games like The World Is Not Enough on the N64 and Nightfire literally used the exact same mechanics as Goldeneye. And Nightfire actually came out after Halo!

Of course, once Halo came out, these types of shooters started dying down, but there was a time where the industry wasn't "rejecting Goldeneye's mechanics" as you say, but rather the industry tried to imitate Goldeneye and cash in on its success. This shouldn't be surprising at all.
 
"Aged badly" is somewhat subjective and depends on what you're used to

A 14 year old might say films from the 50s are unwatchable, and to them they may be, but that doesn't mean they're any lesser, nor does it mean they have actually aged badly

If you play older games or engage with mechanics and systems not all modern games use on a regular basis, you won't find that older games are too much of a problem to play

If you're used to autosave, open worlds, top notch graphics etc and that is 90% of what you play, then yeah, going back to a PS1 game is going to be rough

If you play loads of older games or retro games then it's not as much of an issue

I played FF7 for the first time in 2012 and found it to be fine, I'm sure many others will say it's aged badly


Exactly
 
That's actually not true. There were other shooters not made by Rare or Free Radical that inherited Goldeneye's mechanics. Like I said earlier in the thread, Goldeneye's popularity drove other developers to try to outdo the game. Have you never played any of EA's James Bond games? Games like The World Is Not Enough on the N64 and Nightfire literally used the exact same mechanics as Goldeneye. And Nightfire actually came out after Halo!

Of course, once Halo came out, these types of shooters started dying down, but there was a time where the industry wasn't "rejecting Goldeneye's mechanics" as you say, but rather the industry tried to imitate Goldeneye and cash in on its success. This shouldn't be surprising at all.

I hadn't played (or really even looked at) The World Is Not Enough to be honest, and taking a quick look on YouTube... yea, that's actually pretty blatantly modelled on GoldenEye. I had actually played Nightfire briefly, but had forgotten about it. So, yea I stand corrected in regards to nobody other than Rare and Free Radical adopting its template. I did play an awful lot of shooters on console around that time though, and GoldenEye's mechanics were certainly not a widespread standard. Stuff like Turok 3, Quake 2, Rainbow Six, Daikatana, Alien Resurrection and others that generation didn't adopt it, and then stuff like Quake III Arena, KISS Psycho Circus, Outtrigger, Half-Life, Deus-Ex, Soldier of Fortune and countless others didn't adopt it amongst PS2 and Dreamcast either... and honestly I'd argue that nearly every game on that list plays better for not adopting it. These games didn't start to die down when Halo arrived... they were barely in existence at any point in time ever. Everything I've listed predates Halo and postdates GoldenEye, and none of them use its system.

I could attribute a solution like GoldenEye's to more games if I included third-person shooter also... but then really, that would go to Tomb Raider instead (or maybe even something prior to that, I dunno).
 
Yes I have, played it a month ago. And the controls just take a bit to get used to. Not all games need to play the same or be streamlined. And I had no problems with collision detection either.


People just love to bitch about shit without actually taking the time to learn how to properly do stuff.
He's right, JSR's controls are terrible (as is the tutorial level). And yes, I played it recently too.
 
Halo sold less than Goldeneye. It can not possibly have 'influenced more people' when literally less copies were sold.

This is a silly claim. It's the developers that are influenced by the game design; it doesn't really matter how many copies a game sells to consumers. Besides, we're comparing a licensed game to a new IP on a new console.
 
He's right, JSR's controls are terrible (as is the tutorial level). And yes, I played it recently too.

Yea, JSR is a great game with pretty awful controls. They're not like classic Tomb Raider where they're outdated and archaic, but actually the best tools for the job.. they're just a detriment.

JSRF on the other hand has much more fluid controls... but the game itself sucks ass. It's like they made the maps, and were testing the combat mechanics in a closed environment separate from them... and then somebody accidentally hit the "Ship It!" button.
 
Goldeneye invented dual analogue control. For that alone it could win the most influential console shooter of all time award.

I'll continue to correct you in every thread you say this in until you address it, lol. Descent had it first. (Or at least before Goldeneye)
 
This is a silly claim. It's the developers that are influenced by the game design; it doesn't really matter how many copies a game sells to consumers. Besides, we're comparing a licensed game to a new IP on a new console.

Goldeneye didn't only sell because it was a licensed game. I'm sure the Bond license helped, but it was word of mouth about the game's quality and multiplayer that really helped drive sales.

In fact, Goldeneye (much like Halo, funnily enough) was destined to be a disaster. It was a licensed game based on a movie that was already two years old, and pre-release footage of the game shown at E3 didn't really impress anyone. And to make matters worse, it was going to be exclusive to the underdog console (the N64). Nobody expected Goldeneye to be the huge success story it turned out to be. Probably not even Rare themselves. Even Nintendo didn't have any confidence in the game at first, as evidenced by the fact Nintendo actually cancelled the game. But Rare secretly continued working on the game, and was able to change Nintendo's mind.

Wasn't the game actually a flop at first? But then word of mouth about how great the game was and how fun the multiplayer was really started helping it sell the first few months after release. And it continued to sell a long time afterwards. It wasn't just because of the license that the game sold well. Because if that would've been the case, then all future Bond games should've been huge successes as well, but they either all flopped or didn't sell nearly as well as Goldeneye.
 
I recently setup a raspberry pi3 for retro games and I am having a blast. But damn it, the psx 3d fighters have not aged well. I'm not even talking about how they look. They play badly.

Only tekken 3 and street fighter ex 2 are playable. My nostalgia glasses took a hit loading those games.

Surprisingly enough, while ugly, virtua fighter 2 32x is still fun to play.
 
I recently setup a raspberry pi3 for retro games and I am having a blast. But damn it, the psx 3d fighters have not aged well. I'm not even talking about how they look. They play badly.

Only tekken 3 and street fighter ex 2 are playable. My nostalgia glasses took a hit loading those games.

Surprisingly enough, while ugly, virtua fighter 2 32x is still fun to play.

Have you tried Bloody Roar 2? That was always a favourite of mine, and pretty simple to play.
 
Kid Chamaleon for the SEGA Genesis. ALways loved the concept but even though it has a lot of fans it already felt old in 1992/1993 when tried it for the first time.
 
I'll continue to correct you in every thread you say this in until you address it, lol. Descent had it first. (Or at least before Goldeneye)
And that point will continue to be irrelevant. Descent is not an on-foot FPS, it's a flying game. Technically I should specify 'on foot FPS' since technically Descent is a first person game with shooting. But the standard term FPS universally refers to on-foot shooters at this point and flying games need a qualifier.
 
People were enamored by the Top 100 list I made a couple months ago. Many commented on all the old games I included, and the reason is because I tend to play old games frequently, alongside with new releases.

While it is true that the vast majority of time a good game will always be good, there are some exceptions:

Half-Life 1 - While Half-Life 2 aged like fine wine and is a masterpiece for the ages, the same can't be said by the first title. The main problem of Half-Life 1 is its slog slow pace and confusing level design. The game is chore to play through and is very boring. It's clear that it's cinematic presentation wowed gamers two decades or so ago. But now that the "wow factor" is gone, these elements just drag the game on far too long.

Goldeneye - A little tidbit that shocked the gaming community was how multi-player wasn't added to the game until the last two or three months upon release. That it was literally tacked on. This was amusing to me because being honest...it's pretty obvious that it was. The game's multiplayer was a fucking mess. For starters the maps are literally taken from the single player campaign and aren't designed for multi-player at all. As such the maps had no rhyme or reason to them, there was no flow or even sense to the areas. The guns and characters are hilariously poorly balanced. This isn't just "the Golden Gun", as you can take that weapon out and only two or three weapons would dominate the game. In terms of characters, just be oddjob and then nobody can accurately hit you since you are so small. But the controls are where the game are hit at the worst. You don't really aim most of the time as the gunplay is a lot like Doom. You can hold the trigger and then shoot while standing still, but not only is this jarring, but it breaks the pace of the game. Playing Goldeneye really shows why Halo really took off the way it did.

Space Channel 5 - As funky and unique the presentation is, at the end of the day it's basically Simon Says on a game controller.

Secret of Mana - While this was an ambitious concept of making an action based JRPG where everyone can control a character, the level design isn't too hot. It's very confusing where to go and what to do. Thus the pacing is really poor. And the writing is pretty subpar for Squaresoft SNES standards.

Policenauts - Not well known other than being "the sequel to Snatcher". The game my have nice presentation but is a bit of a chore to play through. What makes Snatcher stand out is it's great pacing as story constantly keeps you interested. As a whole Policenauts may be more "epic", however rather than give you a steady servicing of quality content, Policenauts prefers to just gradually give out crumbs, followed by a quality meal, and...back to crumbs again...

Lol, wrap it up everyone. The worst possible opinion to grace this thread has now been expressed.
 
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