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Clearly, Capcom's out of ideas with Mega Man. Where should they go from here?
- Thread starter EatinOlives
- Start date
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Retro-made 2.5D Mega Man would be pretty crash. They could have it set in the classic universe, but just make a new series.
Mega Man: Reloaded or something.
Mega Man: Reloaded or something.
rockman zx
Member
Legends was the right Mega Man for this generation, sadly it was released ahead of his time.
shaowebb
Member
Read on if you want to read a lot of serious design talk.
The key to megaman is at his core he is a platforming game based on ranged combat and not melee. IF things get close then you die. That is your foundation and everything from there onwards has to be built upon this core concept to transfer Mega Man into 3d.
The first aspect is he is a platformer at heart and platforming in 3D requires two really major things to make it good.
Likely to make Mega man work in 3d he will need some serious retooling to his overall speed and air mobility options. Unlike Mario who most might try to clone Mega Man has to fight at a range. Mario is a slower character and his jumping style is one that, if you recall, faired best at close range since he could do jump ins and perform melee to safely approach opponents. When he was faced with flyers he generally began to struggle and it greatly hindered his platforming.
To get around this I think an air dash and various double, triple, or floaty hover style jumping options can fix this. Someone gets close back dash or go higher with your extra jump option to put enough range between you to fire. Obviously he is going to need something equivalent to a lock on system in order to jump and shoot accurately in 3d while platforming. Nothing like auto aim, but more like a z target and hold to multi target with a small shot limit to keep it challenging so you can't spread shot everything away and just be on with it. Pressure should be present and never so easy to eliminate. Generally, keep one to two enemies over his limit on screen to insure he has to worry about his safety as he shoots from those he can't target to keep him moving and platforming.
This brings up the camera issue. If you are precision platforming and you are firing at enemies you need to worry about blind pitfalls. This means as enemy numbers increase on screen you will be moving around a lot more. To compensate the camera should pull back and openup more of the screen for Megaman in these instances. Likely he will need a Metroid Prime style map marking enemies/enemy generators to stay oriented in large 3D environments like this. Some cameras would need to have defaults. For instance if it sees you targeting and you jump and side dash it should pan back some to show the landing area and up slightly so you can see your shadow and judge where you will land. Shadows for aiming are crucial to design your cameras to keep in frame during the usage of jumping tools that move you around fast.
Like when you jump in 3d platforming you need your shadow to aim your landing. Sonic messed up by giving you too much momentum to judge his landing and by making him skid on landings too much from his own momentum. This resulted in lots of sudden jumps, missed platforms, and sliding off edges. To compensate I think momentum should end after the air dash move and let you just drop straight down afterwards...otherwise it'd be like trying to precision platform during a firefight using Sonic's turbo boost to launch yourself...youd just be a big blue cannonball flying uncontrollably far due to momentum.
Its tricky, but not even close to impossible. It takes a lot of calculated design, but hey if an Animation student like me who still has 2 weeks to graduate can design its core elements so quickly its not impossible to do by a long shot. I'd say it really could be done so long as they remembered never to forget that at its core it needs to be platforming based on projectile combat. If they design his mobility tools to support this fact and never circumvent its purpose with a bunch of melee then it'd actually feel like Mega Man in 3d. Otherwise it'd feel like a reskinned beat em up and those are best left to really flashy and elaborate combat systems like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta. Mega needs to feel like Mega Man to make this jump to 3D. To do that you have to recreate the pressure of trying to platform in a game where theenemies never end and you can NEVER let them get close. This is what created Mega Man's core feel of trying to run through a swarm of hell while picking off just what was needed to survive. If he got melee he'd never feel like he had to run or dodge or worry because if they got close he could handle them. Its this aspect of long range at all cost that made Mega Man so distinctive. Anything else would just feel like playing Zero and thats not what we are trying to turn Mega Man into. 3d shooting platforming needs to have this limitation to remain challenging otherwise it'd be too easy or they'd have to make enemies take a ton of hits. Enemies weren't meant to be tough fighting experiences, they were meant to force you to move and be careful as you platformed. They were meant to feel like obstacles so treat them that way and make them fully able to threaten Mega Man's mobility like always by forcing him to jump, shoot and dodge. Melee means no need to dodge.
Any feedback is welcomed on these thoughts. I'd love to talk about this some more.
The key to megaman is at his core he is a platforming game based on ranged combat and not melee. IF things get close then you die. That is your foundation and everything from there onwards has to be built upon this core concept to transfer Mega Man into 3d.
The first aspect is he is a platformer at heart and platforming in 3D requires two really major things to make it good.
- Strong and easy to use mobility options that give you precise control of maneuvering
- Good cameras.
Likely to make Mega man work in 3d he will need some serious retooling to his overall speed and air mobility options. Unlike Mario who most might try to clone Mega Man has to fight at a range. Mario is a slower character and his jumping style is one that, if you recall, faired best at close range since he could do jump ins and perform melee to safely approach opponents. When he was faced with flyers he generally began to struggle and it greatly hindered his platforming.
To get around this I think an air dash and various double, triple, or floaty hover style jumping options can fix this. Someone gets close back dash or go higher with your extra jump option to put enough range between you to fire. Obviously he is going to need something equivalent to a lock on system in order to jump and shoot accurately in 3d while platforming. Nothing like auto aim, but more like a z target and hold to multi target with a small shot limit to keep it challenging so you can't spread shot everything away and just be on with it. Pressure should be present and never so easy to eliminate. Generally, keep one to two enemies over his limit on screen to insure he has to worry about his safety as he shoots from those he can't target to keep him moving and platforming.
This brings up the camera issue. If you are precision platforming and you are firing at enemies you need to worry about blind pitfalls. This means as enemy numbers increase on screen you will be moving around a lot more. To compensate the camera should pull back and openup more of the screen for Megaman in these instances. Likely he will need a Metroid Prime style map marking enemies/enemy generators to stay oriented in large 3D environments like this. Some cameras would need to have defaults. For instance if it sees you targeting and you jump and side dash it should pan back some to show the landing area and up slightly so you can see your shadow and judge where you will land. Shadows for aiming are crucial to design your cameras to keep in frame during the usage of jumping tools that move you around fast.
Like when you jump in 3d platforming you need your shadow to aim your landing. Sonic messed up by giving you too much momentum to judge his landing and by making him skid on landings too much from his own momentum. This resulted in lots of sudden jumps, missed platforms, and sliding off edges. To compensate I think momentum should end after the air dash move and let you just drop straight down afterwards...otherwise it'd be like trying to precision platform during a firefight using Sonic's turbo boost to launch yourself...youd just be a big blue cannonball flying uncontrollably far due to momentum.
Its tricky, but not even close to impossible. It takes a lot of calculated design, but hey if an Animation student like me who still has 2 weeks to graduate can design its core elements so quickly its not impossible to do by a long shot. I'd say it really could be done so long as they remembered never to forget that at its core it needs to be platforming based on projectile combat. If they design his mobility tools to support this fact and never circumvent its purpose with a bunch of melee then it'd actually feel like Mega Man in 3d. Otherwise it'd feel like a reskinned beat em up and those are best left to really flashy and elaborate combat systems like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta. Mega needs to feel like Mega Man to make this jump to 3D. To do that you have to recreate the pressure of trying to platform in a game where theenemies never end and you can NEVER let them get close. This is what created Mega Man's core feel of trying to run through a swarm of hell while picking off just what was needed to survive. If he got melee he'd never feel like he had to run or dodge or worry because if they got close he could handle them. Its this aspect of long range at all cost that made Mega Man so distinctive. Anything else would just feel like playing Zero and thats not what we are trying to turn Mega Man into. 3d shooting platforming needs to have this limitation to remain challenging otherwise it'd be too easy or they'd have to make enemies take a ton of hits. Enemies weren't meant to be tough fighting experiences, they were meant to force you to move and be careful as you platformed. They were meant to feel like obstacles so treat them that way and make them fully able to threaten Mega Man's mobility like always by forcing him to jump, shoot and dodge. Melee means no need to dodge.
Any feedback is welcomed on these thoughts. I'd love to talk about this some more.
I always thought Jet Force Gemini was a fantastic framework for 3D Mega Man. Ratchet & Clank is sorta the same thing, just easier and a bit more arcadey. It really doesn't seem that hard to me. Add in boss fights with nimble enemies and good lock-on aiming mechanics and bam! You've got yourself an amazing Mega Man in 3D.
It is broken though. As someone who grew up through they hey-dey of the X series, I can't even begin to guess how long it's been since I've properly enjoyed a Mega Man game. Battle Network, Zero, ZX, Star Force.. maybe it's my own fault and I'm alone on this but it has been a long, long time since I've been legitimately interested in a new Mega Man release AT ALL, and it's about the only franchise I grew up with (that is still around, of course) that I can say that about.
The franchise has gone way off course, and if this thread is any indication other people seem to agree.
zerokoolpsx
Member
Sell the IP to someone who can actually make something of it.
Putting him in PASBR would be a start.
Putting him in PASBR would be a start.
Hours Left
Member
8-bit remakes of 7 & 8.
Nice post, and it backs up an idea I had but didn't have the energy to elaborate on in a post so I'm just gonna throw this out there: Sin and Punishment. Takes care of the camera issue straight away, stays true to the "shoot things far away, too close and they hurt you" style gameplay and allows for a focus on mobility (floating, flying, dashing etc) without being impeded by level design, or having level design be impeded by those abilities.
Mega Man didn't have the speed of Sonic but they always seemed like very tight, briskly- paced games (as opposed to Mario where levels were more spacious and there was room for error). Traditional 3D environments I think would degrade a lot of the gameplay that made Mega Man classic in the first place.
Karsticles
Member
Why? Because Platinum would be owned by a company that would support it?
Lock-on would ruin the game, because a big part of Mega Man is skill shots. I think it makes more sense to use something like the Wii Remote's IR capabilities a la Metroid Prime. I agree with your platforming opinions, though.
Mega Man should be given a permanent rush armor with limited flight abilities. If you've ever played Gun Valkyrie for the Xbox, something like that.
Boosting into the air should pan the camera down to a birds eye view so you can aim at the ground. You dodge by jetting left/right/forward/backward.
kunonabi
Member
They really should have taken a 3 tier approach
2d platformers still work you just have know the audience. A digital release of classic MM with HD sprites could work or you could go and do it on the Wii U. Make it multiplayer in the vein of Rayman Legends. You could let players choose from Mega Man, Protoman, Bass, Rush and Treble. Let the person on the game pad take care of dropping power ups and things. Make the robot masters bigger and more complex to advantage of the multiple characters. Mega Man is very popular with kids and their parents and Nintendo already has the built in audience thanks to Mario, Kirby, Sonic, and DK. Combine that with creating levels with the gamepad and you can tap into the powered up/universe concepts.
A new MMX should be the 3D Mega man we never got. I love Legends but it really isn't the OOT,SM64, CV64 of the series. The X series has more stuff that works in a 3D space with the additional movement options, armor/upgrade collections, and some of the stuff the later games introduced. They could also make it a little darker without really disconnecting from the earlier entries.
MML3 since it has dedicated fanbase that would been a great sign of goodwill and a nice little hit for the 3DS. Legends has that a similar fanbase to Darkstalkers/Rival schools that they can money from the merchandise to go along with the game.
2d platformers still work you just have know the audience. A digital release of classic MM with HD sprites could work or you could go and do it on the Wii U. Make it multiplayer in the vein of Rayman Legends. You could let players choose from Mega Man, Protoman, Bass, Rush and Treble. Let the person on the game pad take care of dropping power ups and things. Make the robot masters bigger and more complex to advantage of the multiple characters. Mega Man is very popular with kids and their parents and Nintendo already has the built in audience thanks to Mario, Kirby, Sonic, and DK. Combine that with creating levels with the gamepad and you can tap into the powered up/universe concepts.
A new MMX should be the 3D Mega man we never got. I love Legends but it really isn't the OOT,SM64, CV64 of the series. The X series has more stuff that works in a 3D space with the additional movement options, armor/upgrade collections, and some of the stuff the later games introduced. They could also make it a little darker without really disconnecting from the earlier entries.
MML3 since it has dedicated fanbase that would been a great sign of goodwill and a nice little hit for the 3DS. Legends has that a similar fanbase to Darkstalkers/Rival schools that they can money from the merchandise to go along with the game.
scytheavatar
Member
j
Legends only made sense in the PS1 era, a 3rd person shooter with bad cameras and controls mixed with JRPG elements. If they released Legends 3 it would have been difficult for them to sell more copies that the first 2 legends game did.
DMC style Megaman is probably its best chance of being relevant. I think Dragon's Dogma with busters is another idea that has potential.
Legends only made sense in the PS1 era, a 3rd person shooter with bad cameras and controls mixed with JRPG elements. If they released Legends 3 it would have been difficult for them to sell more copies that the first 2 legends game did.
DMC style Megaman is probably its best chance of being relevant. I think Dragon's Dogma with busters is another idea that has potential.
shaowebb
Member
A good point, but it would also relegate Mega Man to essentially rail based combat more akin to Star Fox styles than Mega Man. 3D platforming can be done. Mario 64 did it quite well with large open stages and star goals to reach in them. Mega Man would obviously be trying to reach boss doors to free an area from Robot Master control. Perhaps he could have several secondary and tertiary stage goals to reach to make him explore some more, but making stages with lots of vertical climbing and sections to them work pretty well. Banjo Kazooie tick tock woods is a good design I think akin to what might work for Mega Man in 3D.
Like I said though his mobility will likely need completely new tools and tricks to pull this off. At least a double jump and air dash. Possibly even a meter draining hover to slow descent and float to make desperate controlled falls trying to steer yourself toward a moving lower platform if you airdashed during a jump and screwed up and fell down from the stage. That meter should recharge of course but burn out quickly. Keep him facing obstacles, keep him challenged, but don't make it so precise he cant occasionally recover from a few. A wall jump might be good. Maybe not a full on cling like in Megaman X since he could just dash and hop around on a wall all day. Perhaps a short cling and he falls off completely rather than sliding so that he still has to jump and be precise about not falling.
As you can see every contingency needs designed around to do 3D platforming that feels pressured from enemy obstacles due to ranged only combat. If you resort to melee options its over. You already eliminated the fear of an enemy bumping into you that is vital to Mega Man games. Only limited meter based specials earned from bosses EVER eliminated that and those were generally made in ways that couldn't break stages via spam by having short ranges and punishable recovery.
It can be done without resorting to rails or melee additions that would turn the experience into something not really Mega Man anymore, but it will be tricky enough to take a dedicated director who understands good platforming game design...there aren't many platforming experts left. The best around were probably employed by Insomniac, Naughty Dog, or Rare if they could find any of them to grab for the project. It may need outsourced to one of them to be honest if they want it done right. I'd choose Insomniac if I was them to romance about it.
I'm feeling you on this post. I agree that lock on can easily ruin Mega Man due to his skill shot core. I hadn't honestly considered motion controls like the wii's , but that could work. Dual analog would be too hard to do, but if he had a slight wily coyote like moment after an air dash before he fell where he stayed in air for a second before slowly gaining momentum into a fully fledged fall it should give enough time to orient yourself and aim without making it too easy. It would come down to playtesting. If it felt too hard then they may need a really really nerfed z-targeting thing, but the more I think about your idea the more I feel it could be designed to work and make skill shooting possible without forcing a high level of gunplay mastery skill from players akin to tourney level COD jump and strafe headshooting skills. A slight pause before descent could give us all the time we needed.
Gun Valkyrie is an excellent description of how his mobility tools and camera could work together to handle things without resorting to rails BTW. God, I'm glad I'm about to enter into this industry. I won't stop until someday at least one of these kind of Gaf talks makes its way into a damned design discussion where it can make a difference on some franchise or another. Studios need to hear this kind of stuff and its why I wanted to do this for a living so bad. I'm tired of spotting solutions and never having a big enough voice to give designers the answers they should consider for themselves. God knows where I'll end up, but someday if I earn the right to lead a project I am seriously going to remember feedback like this.
CriterionDog
Member
I would love a new type of megaman game, but it should use the looks/armor of Megaman X. And even expand upon the armors...And have more than 8 levels! : )
SonicMegaDrive
Member
There should continue to be a market for old-school styled games. I hate the notion that a simple game like a new Mega Man is too antiquated to even exist in this day and age.
And I'm not talking about shitty cel phone games thrown together to make a quick buck, either.
And I'm not talking about shitty cel phone games thrown together to make a quick buck, either.
It really is difficult to find a way to pull off a 3-D Mega Man and have it still reach the major tenets of the original series. Imagining trying to jump to avoid an enemy attack while simultaneously firing back sounds like it would be a nightmare unless you include some sort of lock-on ability, but as was said that would also really screw with things and remove a lot of the challenge factor. There is no other way to accurately manage both movement and shooting in 3-D space though. I suppose you could go dual-analog controls and set the two shoulder buttons to shoot and jump respectively but I doubt anybody wants that.
I think it's probably best left as small-scale 2-D projects, weird as that is to think about. Otherwise you'd need a Legends-level shakeup of founding gameplay concepts, at which point I suppose you could do whatever you wanted as long as it still involved a guy in blue shooting things.
I think it's probably best left as small-scale 2-D projects, weird as that is to think about. Otherwise you'd need a Legends-level shakeup of founding gameplay concepts, at which point I suppose you could do whatever you wanted as long as it still involved a guy in blue shooting things.
The Mana Legend
Banned
Hire Wayforward to make a new 2D Mega Man.
Hire Insomniac to make a new 3D Mega Man in the style of Ratchet and Clank.
Done.
Hire Insomniac to make a new 3D Mega Man in the style of Ratchet and Clank.
Done.
Didn't we have this thread recently? That being said, same idea here as always:
"The One True Megaman Game/Series"
- 3D; "Ratchet & Clank/Jet Force Gemini meets Super Mario Galaxy"
- Reboot where all the established characters coexist with specific roles related to this utopian world of robotics. (Think Classic Series or Astro Boy 2004) Tone of the game should never go darker than that of the Classic Series (re: no melodramatics but lots of humor that might play on it)
- Gameplay befitting the potential of the the franchise, taking tight platforming challenges from the Classic series and matching them to the advanced and snappy mobility of the X series (wall jumping, double jumping, dashing/airdashing, flight sequences a la Sin & Punishment with Rush Jet) maybe with a little inspiration from Vanquish.
- Have a central good figure and bad figure in Dr. Light & Dr. Wily. Robot Masters as primary bosses but role of Megaman & Light's robots might be more akin to the Hunters in the X series as time goes on.
- Cel-Shaded. Hitoshi Ariga on art direction. Why? Because I said so.
Also because of this:
More here.
- Iterate on this the same way Nintendo would with big production Mario. Use all the ideas collected in the interim time to make something impressive on a generational or bi-generational schedule.
Addendum: Continue the Classic Series as a 2D "New! Megaman" type line to compliment this series' "Super Megaman 64/Galaxy" while cushioning fans that might not be ready to graduate to the bigger endeavor just yet. Give the games production values that meet Bionic Commando Rearmed but play just as snappy as the NES titles.
Megaman's biggest issues as a franchise are consumer perception of the differing series, a underlying fear of real change/devs "playing it (too) safe" gameplay wise and oversaturation in the market. This alleviates a lot of things while giving Capcom two different approaches to work with, high spec for those craving something different and tried and true for those who want things a little more traditional.
"The One True Megaman Game/Series"
- 3D; "Ratchet & Clank/Jet Force Gemini meets Super Mario Galaxy"
- Reboot where all the established characters coexist with specific roles related to this utopian world of robotics. (Think Classic Series or Astro Boy 2004) Tone of the game should never go darker than that of the Classic Series (re: no melodramatics but lots of humor that might play on it)
- Gameplay befitting the potential of the the franchise, taking tight platforming challenges from the Classic series and matching them to the advanced and snappy mobility of the X series (wall jumping, double jumping, dashing/airdashing, flight sequences a la Sin & Punishment with Rush Jet) maybe with a little inspiration from Vanquish.
- Have a central good figure and bad figure in Dr. Light & Dr. Wily. Robot Masters as primary bosses but role of Megaman & Light's robots might be more akin to the Hunters in the X series as time goes on.
- Cel-Shaded. Hitoshi Ariga on art direction. Why? Because I said so.
Also because of this:
More here.
- Iterate on this the same way Nintendo would with big production Mario. Use all the ideas collected in the interim time to make something impressive on a generational or bi-generational schedule.
Addendum: Continue the Classic Series as a 2D "New! Megaman" type line to compliment this series' "Super Megaman 64/Galaxy" while cushioning fans that might not be ready to graduate to the bigger endeavor just yet. Give the games production values that meet Bionic Commando Rearmed but play just as snappy as the NES titles.
Megaman's biggest issues as a franchise are consumer perception of the differing series, a underlying fear of real change/devs "playing it (too) safe" gameplay wise and oversaturation in the market. This alleviates a lot of things while giving Capcom two different approaches to work with, high spec for those craving something different and tried and true for those who want things a little more traditional.
kunonabi
Member
I'd rather Mega Man stay buried than take after Ratchet and Clank.
The Mana Legend
Banned
They basically did this with Powered Up and it is one of the best Mega Man games ever.
Mega Man Universe was basically a sequel to Powered Up. Sucks that it got canceled though, even if it didn't look spectacular.
rockman zx
Member
Legends core gamplay it's fine for this generation, they online need to develop a game like that with todays standards.
GravityMan
Member
Retire the IP, or at least put it to sleep for a long time. Mega Man doesn't have the appeal today that it used to back in the late 80s and the 90s. (Although MM9 was excellent.) We've gotten more than enough Mega Man games.
someguyinahat
Member
At this point? Something. ANYTHING.
Karsticles
Member
I hope that when you eventually get a say in these things, you still ask GAF for thoughts on the games you are making. Game design was my childhood dream, so if I can indirectly influence a future game by talking about this stuff with you, a part of me feels fulfilled.
I've actually thought about doing a little newsletter on game development philosophy, but I just don't have the time or energy right now.
Someone's going to post iOS Mega Man X now.
Yeah, me too! Rare had a habit of doing their versions of EAD games...
Mario -> Banjo & Kazooie
Mario Kart -> Diddy Kong Racing
Zelda -> Dinosaur Planet
...and I always thought that Jet Force Gemini was their version of Mega Man in 3D. It's probably my favorite N64 game.
It was a shame that Capcom didn't create a 3D Mega Man game for N64 after they saw what Nintendo did with Mario 64. They made Mega Man Legends for PlayStation but it wasn't a straight action platformer.
In hindsight, Capcom should have asked Insomniac to develop a 3D Mega Man game for them before Sony/Insomniac released their first Ratchet & Clank game...
Is that you Capcom?
Not harping on you though, but damn it's upsetting to think this might just be the reality.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Mega Man has just as much appeal now as he ever did. Same as characters like Mario.
They just have to market the games correctly and to the right audience.
A 'NEW Mega Man' WiiU launch title would do wonders.
They just have to market the games correctly and to the right audience.
A 'NEW Mega Man' WiiU launch title would do wonders.
Stephen Colbert
Banned
Mega Man 3D Land.
I would kill for 3D Mega Man that plays like a 2D Platformer akin to Super Mario 3D Land
I would kill for 3D Mega Man that plays like a 2D Platformer akin to Super Mario 3D Land
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I think I've stated my idea like 5 times already in various threads, so I'll spare everyone and just say I mostly agree with Azurejericho.
The Mana Legend
Banned
There are levels in Mega Man X7 that are similar to this.
Never again. Never again.
Has to have X, but I'll take it.
Hellsing321
Member
They need to cancel at least another 3 Megaman games before they can figure it out,
ThatObviousUser
ὠαἴÏÏιÏÏÎ¿Ï Ïαá¿Ï εἶ
Universe looked pretty lame.
As for Powered Up, that's basically the vein of what I was thinking, but with these changes:
- Dat Retro level design and art direction.
- New game, not a remake.
- Regular proportions, not chibi.
A game including all that would make a very good case for my GOTY in whichever year it got released.
Nintendo should buy it then, I remember hearing something about Mega man games selling the most on Nintendo hardware
slightconfuse
Banned
eather a new ZX game or
Legends 3 rises
Legends 3 rises
Cannot die until they reveal what happened between Classic and X.
Oni Link 666
Member
I think a Mega Man X9 like MM9 and 10, with graphics like X 4-6, that's not play perfectly or die hard, would be pretty cool.