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[1-D_FTW]

I've worked on my fair share of 'middle of the road games' and it is sad to make good games that just aren't top tier. It isn't the developers fault, it isn't how it is marketed, it isn't like we could spend more money.

Pricepoint is the key. This is why Facebook, iOS, and various indie games can be sucessful.

Most consumers aren't willing to buy a $60 game with a lot of risk. They want COD with great MP, but really just want to buy COD. This is especailly true when you start talking about 5+ selling games.

When I was working on Condemned for the Xbox 360 launch, I really wished the MSRP would have been $49.99 instead of $59.99. Even with the lower price point, I felt that more people would have bought the game. The problem that people see with this is once you reduce the price, there is a perception that you are getting less or it isn't worth $60.

Because you're in the industry and I respect you, I take it as truth. But I've seen this mentioned a lot around here and I don't get it.

I remember the last year Sega had the NFL license. They budget priced it at 19.99 or 29.99, sold extremely well, and EA got so threatened they spent a gazillion dollars securing the exclusive license from the NFL. I'll never believe the two were a coincidence.

 

[Agyar]

the middle class $60 game is dead

VARIABLE PRICING FOR GOD SAKES!!

Variable pricing doesn't solve the issue when the budgets for middle-class games are still massive. Taking that same game and selling it for two-thirds of the price poses just as much risk as there's nothing to suggest it will sell twice as many copies.

 

[UraMallas]

What is middle class gaming? These are some games I'd consider "middle class":

Bayonetta
Borderlands
Darksiders
Enslaved

Were they successful?



How about just typing the names of the games next time? ~Admin

 

[Oneiroscope]

it's almost as if he isn't aware of pretty much every single game being released for PC, oh wait he isn't. hehe.

 

[GhaleonQ]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...szinski_On_The_Rise_Of_The_Power_Creative.php

Also, I'd contextualize his statement with the actual point of his speech, since this is supposedly his solution.

Focus-test and pour money in = blockbuster
Simple hook or passion project = indie hit
Personality/auteur = middle tier

*shrugs*

 

[Gravijah]

Because you're in the industry and I respect you, I take it as truth. But I've seen this mentioned a lot around here and I don't get it.

I remember the last year Sega had the NFL license. They budget priced it at 19.99 or 29.99, sold extremely well, and EA got so threatened they spent a gazillion dollars securing the exclusive license from the NFL. I'll never believe the two were a coincidence.

NFL 2K was already a "known" quantity. People knew the games were good.

 

[No_Style]

HUGE ENSLAVED COVER!

Lots of true middle class games get price dropped fast. Enslaved, Singularity and Darksiders are fine examples of that.

 

[UraMallas]

HUGE ENSLAVED COVER!

COME AT ME BRO.

Spoiler

Fixed

How about just typing the names of the games next time? ~Admin

I fixed it myself but thanks for the help...

 

[Stumpokapow]

The Other Guys HAS made money. It made $170m in the theatre with a budget of $100m,

That isn't making money, that's losing money.

 

[Kusagari]

NFL 2K was already a "known" quantity. People knew the games were good.

They didn't buy them though. That was the only year ever that it sold equally or close to Madden.

 

[Vinci]

Variable pricing doesn't solve the issue when the budgets for middle-class games are still massive. Taking that same game and selling it for two-thirds of the price poses just as much risk as there's nothing to suggest it will sell twice as many copies.

You're suggesting that game developers and publishers don't know how to budget worth a shit? Yeah, you're probably right.

 

[legend166]

We've been saying this for years.

Publishers had a great opportunity to make the Wii a platform where 'middle class' games could prosper, but they stuffed that up big time.

And man, he couldn't have picked worse comparisons. The Others Guys made $120 million in the States. That movies was a success.

 

[Corto]

HUGE ENSLAVED COVER!

Lots of true middle class games get price dropped fast. Enslaved, Singularity and Darksiders are fine examples of that.

God bless the UK for us Euros. A few weeks from release these games get such a cut in price it's not even funny. I can't believe day one PSP UMD games prices in UK. How can they do it?

 

[Tunavi]

That isn't making money, that's losing money.

How so?

 

[element]

What is middle class gaming? These are some games I'd consider "middle class":

Were they successful?

Borderlands was a hit. The rest weren't. They might have been profitable, but not hits. That is also part of the problem. Publishers want hits. They don't want games to just be profitable, they want games to help them fund more games. This is the difference between someone like Altus, which is a sustained publisher, meaning their games typical make money, but profits in the hundreds of thousands, not millions. They know their market, they know their projections. You aren't going to see Altus expect a game to sell 5+ copies and they wouldn't approve a budget that would need to sell such an amount.

Because you're in the industry and I respect you, I take it as truth. But I've seen this mentioned a lot around here and I don't get it.

I remember the last year Sega had the NFL license. They budget priced it at 19.99 or 29.99, sold extremely well, and EA got so threatened they spent a gazillion dollars securing the exclusive license from the NFL. I'll never believe the two were a coincidence.

The key is the NFL license. That will sell not matter the price point.

There are lots of studies out there on price point, and some people really do believe the higher the price the "better" the product is. If you go to the store and see Game X for $59.99 and Game Y for $49.99, the first thing you might think is why Game Y is $10 less, what DOESN'T it have. Now some gamers do research, know what they want or know the products, but I'm talking the Walmart shopper.

 

[Vinci]

We've been saying this for years.

Publishers had a great opportunity to make the Wii a platform where 'middle class' games could prosper, but they stuffed that up big time.

And man, he couldn't have picked worse comparisons. The Others Guys made $120 million in the States. That movies was a success.

It cost $100 million to make. That is NOT a success.

 

[Gravijah]

They didn't buy them though. That was the only year ever that it sold equally or close to Madden.

I'm not saying lowering price points won't help games sell more. I'm just fearful of the large subset of people who look at cheap prices and expect cheap quality. And I don't know how it would effect new IPs.

And there are plenty of games that I know are good right now. But if they don't offer value, I'm not touching at 60 dollars. You've got to know who you are. If you're not offering lots of value, don't touch the 60 dollar mark.



And this.

You're an informed gamer. You're not average joe who shops at GameStop.

 

[1-D_FTW]

NFL 2K was already a "known" quantity. People knew the games were good.

And there are plenty of games that I know are good right now. But if they don't offer value, I'm not touching at 60 dollars. You've got to know who you are. If you're not offering lots of value, don't touch the 60 dollar mark.

They didn't buy them though. That was the only year ever that it sold equally or close to Madden.

And this.

 

[Blast Processing]

I suppose Super Meat Boy could be considered indie. I wouldn't say the same about Trine or Torchlight though.

All of those games are from independent studios and had very little in the way of marketing behind them. What's your definition of Indie?

 

[kevm3]

There are plenty of opportunities on the online download services such as PSN or XBLA or the PC market. Another issue is PRICE. If you aren't going to release a game that competes with the best of the best, release a game at a $40 price range and maybe you'll get more looks. Nobody is going to pay $60 for a middling game when that same $60 can get you tons of quality.

 

[Mrbob]

Borderlands was a hit. The rest weren't. They might have been profitable, but not hits. That is also part of the problem. Publishers want hits. They don't want games to just be profitable, they want games to help them fund more games. This is the difference between someone like Altus, which is a sustained publisher, meaning their games typical make money, but profits in the hundreds of thousands, not millions. They know their market, they know their projections. You aren't going to see Altus expect a game to sell 5+ copies and they wouldn't approve a budget that would need to sell such an amount.
.

This is an interesting point and one I wish the suits would start rethinking. The chase to be the next Call of Duty is really what I feel is wrong with this industry. Look at Bioware and all their claims lately how their games have to sell 10 million units. Seems like a sickness which won't get cured. How much collateral damage does their need to be to try and get that one hit game?

All of those games are from independent studios and had very little in the way of marketing behind them. What's your definition of Indie?

Something small like bit trip beat or audiosurf. Not a bunch of ex blizzard employees forming a new company.

 

[DiscoJer]

Pointed out several times already, but just because the budget was low it doesn't mean you can be afforded the right to charge it at a premium. It's why companies such as Paradox and 1C are doing extremely well with digital sales on PC when they charge $20-30 for a title.

But it also helps that basically all their titles are developed in Eastern Europe, where costs are much, much lower (or are Indie titles from small studios)

That's his point. Games like those used to be made in the west. Now they have to be made in Eastern Europe to cut costs. What happens when costs in those regions go up (as they will eventually?) Made in China? Latin America?

In the old days, that same niche was filled by companies like SSI, Microprose, SSG, Sierra (Impressions), QQP, New World Computing, etc.

And in the console space, I used to buy a lot of the $20 titles from Empire Interactive. Ford Racing in particular. They're gone. So are most the other companies that did the same sort of thing (Acclaim is another one).

That's what he's talking about...

 

[MiniBossBattle]

CliffyB speaks the truth

 

[MikeE21286]

Variable pricing doesn't solve the issue when the budgets for middle-class games are still massive. Taking that same game and selling it for two-thirds of the price poses just as much risk as there's nothing to suggest it will sell twice as many copies.

It doesn't solve 100% of the problem. But it gets you about 80% of the way there.

 

[Calcaneus]

Console devs should take cues from PC devs in this case, they don't seem as afraid to price their games lower than $60. But that may be because putting your game up for download is cheaper than filling stores with copies.

DD future will save us?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Those endorsing variable pricing (and I guess those not, as well): do you tend to buy games that come under common MSRPs?

Like, Maijin and the Forsaken Kingdom. Did anyone buy that game?

The problem with variable pricing is you still need to make a game that hooks people, but if you have that game, no publisher wants to sell it for under $60.

 

[Diablohead]

I would say not having every release as $60/£40 is a good way to start, online sales can cut more corners too, sell that game for £25 online instead of £35 since you are not paying for boxes and manuals and shit.

Indie gaming is growing faster then ever and i'm glad to be part of it, if only in the early stages so far.

 

[Stumpokapow]

How so?

When you spend more money than you make, you lose money. Making $170 million at the box office on $100 million negative costs is spending more money than you make.

 

[digita1alchemy]

90% of the games I buy are "Middle Class" games. I have no idea how much revenue they're making but they keep coming out, so whatever.

 

[legend166]

It cost $100 million to make. That is NOT a success.

$170 million worldwide on a $100 million budget, when accounting for DVD/Blu-Ray/cable/whatever else, that movie is making money.

Which is part of the reason comparisons to films are flawed, as has been mentioned several times in this thread.

 

[Tunavi]

When you spend more money than you make, you lose money. Making $170 million at the box office on $100 million negative costs is spending more money than you make.

Wouldn't that be $70 million in profits? I'm a little confused.

 

[newjeruse]

When you spend more money than you make, you lose money. Making $170 million at the box office on $100 million negative costs is spending more money than you make.

I'm missing something.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

I blame high prices, overly critical reviews and obsession with 8.0 scores and higher.

Most gamers don't even give games that score below that a second look. And with how high quality games have gotten, even some 6.5 games are absolutely fantastic.

$60 a pop is hard justify too. Game sales would be a lot higher if every game launched at $40. That's how they should price middle class games atleast.

 

[Kusagari]

Those endorsing variable pricing (and I guess those not, as well): do you tend to buy games that come under common MSRPs?

Like, Maijin and the Forsaken Kingdom. Did anyone buy that game?

The problem with variable pricing is you still need to make a game that hooks people, but if you have that game, no publisher wants to sell it for under $60.

Majin was a niche title that would have never appealed to America to begin with and also had zero marketing. Games like Red Faction and Just Cause 2 could have sold great if they blasted the advertising with ONLY $39.99. That's a way to stand out in the midst of the bigger budget games.

 

[Corto]

Those endorsing variable pricing (and I guess those not, as well): do you tend to buy games that come under common MSRPs?

Like, Maijin and the Forsaken Kingdom. Did anyone buy that game?

The problem with variable pricing is you still need to make a game that hooks people, but if you have that game, no publisher wants to sell it for under $60.

You're right. But then sometimes comes a game like 3D Dot Game Heroes and a publisher like Atlus. The variable pricing wouldn't be a panacea to all these games, they had to be compelling enough by itselves.

 

[Mrbob]

Studios don't take in 100 percent of box office profits. I forget the average but I believe it is between 50 and 60 percent? So out of the 170 million studio might have got around 85 million back or maybe broke even at 100 million. This also isn't taking into account marketing costs which can be 25 to 50 million or more.

 

[Of All Trades]

How so?

Box Office revenue is split with the theater. I believe the rule of thumb is that it takes 2x the budget in ticket sales to recoup costs. Marketing costs may or may not have been included in that number, too. But Other Guys had the benefit of being able to earn again on DVD, which is a luxury unafforded to games, although DLC could be considered comparable in nature.

 

[1-D_FTW]

When you spend more money than you make, you lose money. Making $170 million at the box office on $100 million negative costs is spending more money than you make.

I don't get that arithmetic. The cost is 100 million. That's your negative. And as far as box office goes (unless it has changed), the studios get all the box office recipts. The theaters make their money exclusively on concession sales.

EDIT: I guess it's changed? I remember it used to be this way and a real sore spot.

But it also helps that basically all their titles are developed in Eastern Europe, where costs are much, much lower (or are Indie titles from small studios)

That's his point. Games like those used to be made in the west. Now they have to be made in Eastern Europe to cut costs. What happens when costs in those regions go up (as they will eventually?) Made in China? Latin America?

In the old days, that same niche was filled by companies like SSI, Microprose, SSG, Sierra (Impressions), QQP, New World Computing, etc.

And in the console space, I used to buy a lot of the $20 titles from Empire Interactive. Ford Racing in particular. They're gone. So are most the other companies that did the same sort of thing (Acclaim is another one).

That's what he's talking about...

Red Orchestra is made in Georgia (USA). Rfactor is made by a company in Michigan. High quality independent games aren't the exclusive domain of eastern Europe.

 

[wsippel]

the middle class $60 game is dead

VARIABLE PRICING FOR GOD SAKES!!

Uhm...

If a games costs half as much to make as, say, GTA, and sells as much as GTA at half the price, variable pricing makes sense. If it costs half as much as GTA, and sells half the copies at half the price, it doesn't. And it really, really wouldn't sell as much as GTA, even at a lower price.

Also, if you go to the theatre, a ticket for the large AAA summer blockbuster is just as expensive as the ticket for some "middle class" movie. DVDs are just as expensive as well, as are CDs. Books, too.

 

[NeoUltima]

Wata is wet

 

[old manatee]

Was the last middle-class game Epic made Unreal Tournament 3? If that didn't sell well it was probably because it was garbage.

 

[Corto]

Uhm...

If a games costs half as much to make as, say, GTA, and sells as much as GTA at half the price, variable pricing makes sense. If it costs half as much as GTA, and sells half the copies at half the price, it doesn't. And it really, really wouldn't sell as much as GTA, even at a lower price.

Also, if you go to the theatre, a ticket for the large AAA summer blockbuster is just as expensive as the ticket for some "middle class" movie. DVDs are just as expensive as well, as are CDs. Books, too.

And maybe the Book, Music and Movies industries suffer to some extent of these same problems.

 

[Sneaky Gato]

What sets Battle of LA apart? It just looks like Independence Day

It appeals heavily to two demographics. One to Sci-Fi fans because for once the enemies seem competent which is something they have wanted to happen for years. Second it applies to the military demo because it focuses on them instead of the civilians for once.

 

[Of All Trades]

I don't get that arithmetic. The cost is 100 million. That's your negative. And as far as box office goes (unless it has changed), the studios get all the box office recipts. The theaters make their money exclusively on concession sales.

EDIT: I guess it's changed? I remember it used to be this way and a real sore spot.

Except for a very few movies what you're describing is incorrect, and even then the theater still receives some of the BO, just not as much.

Also, if you go to the theatre, a ticket for the large AAA summer blockbuster is just as expensive as the ticket for some "middle class" movie. DVDs are just as expensive as well, as are CDs. Books, too.

There's a world of difference between $10-15 and $60. I'm not sure how CDs are doing these days but the industry was significantly changed by Napster/iTunes/etc.

Books are probably the worst off of all the categories, although e-readers may be fixing that.

 

[Stumpokapow]

$170 million worldwide on a $100 million budget, when accounting for DVD/Blu-Ray/cable/whatever else, that movie is making money.

That's... not true.

I'm missing something.

Wouldn't that be $70 million in profits? I'm a little confused.

I don't get that arithmetic. The cost is 100 million. That's your negative. And as far as box office goes (unless it has changed), the studios get all the box office recipts. The theaters make their money exclusively on concession sales.

That's not even close to true--studios take 50% or so domestically and a little less internationally, meaning that The Other Guys probably made $85-90 million worldwide for the studio, and the cost is not 100 million, the production cost ("negative cost") is 100 million. Marketing isn't free. In fact, it's not uncommon for marketing costs on a decent sized movie to approach $25-30 million. So you're looking at a $35-45 million loss at the box office.

Maybe it'll make money longterm with rentals, TV syndication, etc, but it certainly didn't make money at the box office.

SECOND EDIT: I think you guys are wrong. Doing a quick google search, it still seems like first run movies are loss leaders. The theaters are using these movies to get seats in the house and make their money on over priced concessions.

Saying that a studio takes 50% of theatrical gross does not imply that a theatre takes the other 50%.

Look, I'm not going to do anyone else's homework for them, but I can also see that failing to elaborate more on the situation isn't working here, so I'll just say that this is a good-although-not-perfect description of the situation.

 

[MikeE21286]

Uhm...

If a games costs half as much to make as, say, GTA, and sells as much as GTA at half the price, variable pricing makes sense. If it costs half as much as GTA, and sells half the copies at half the price, it doesn't. And it really, really wouldn't sell as much as GTA, even at a lower price.

.

Well assuming a somewhat inverse (and linear to some degree) relationship between Price and # of Copies sold, that would hopefully never occur in a logical world (lower price = more copies, higher price = less copies).

And also most games don't cost half as much as GTA either


Again, it's not a catch-all answer, lots of other factors come into play here (franchise, market conditions, economic conditions, platform release on, etc..)

 

[Effect]

the middle class $60 game is dead

VARIABLE PRICING FOR GOD SAKES!!



Amnesia comes to mind first off....

Seriously. I don't get why many don't understand this. Not every game needs to be sold at $60 or even $50. Most aren't even worth that because they can be so short. They also should be able to judge intelligently just how much an idea might be accepted and the budget accordingly. You can make games in the middle. Just don't make so damn many in general. There are to many games made each year. You need entries every single year or even ever two years either. A decent game will keep selling at a decent price.

 

[kevm3]

This issue of budget is why I believe this generation of consoles will last a few more years at least. It simply is too expensive for any but a few developers to really take advantage of the additional power that a significantly more powerful machine will offer. What we will start to see moreso than now is more military shooters with COD-esque gameplay and other 'successful formulas.'

 

[obonicus]

Not to comment on the games point, where he might be correct, but I think using movies as an analogy is fairly flawed. People do go see middle-class movies. The one Will Farrell movie he mentioned didn't do great, but what about all the other ones that did? Or The Hangover? The studio that did Batman Begins is hardly indie, but its budget was still relatively small.

 

[Kusagari]

Also, if you go to the theatre, a ticket for the large AAA summer blockbuster is just as expensive as the ticket for some "middle class" movie. DVDs are just as expensive as well, as are CDs. Books, too.

None of those things costs over $20(except some DVDs/Blu-Rays). The normal consumer doesn't think much of spending money at price points that low. Once you're hitting $60 smackeroos they get a lot more selective. So that comparison is worthless.