• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Cliffy B: "The Middle Class Game Is Dead" (GDC)

Host Samurai said:
If it does, it certainly does not look like it. Not that its a bad thing at all.

It was hideously expensive but that included starting a studio and building tech from scratch. They also pulled the game in a few different directions. I remember seeing the cover story for the game in Play magazine around 2 years before the game came out.

The game was also way too long. 16 hours of gameplay or around there which is probably 6 hours more content than they really needed.
 
This might give you an idea of the type of staffing we are talking about for a game.

Heavy Rain in-house CG team: Environments = 10 artists. Characters = 6. Facial = 3. Rigging = 3. Effects = 2. Oh, and 450 outsourced.
Ryan Payton
24 full time employees just for CG and 450 contractors. Now that isn't at the sametime. But that give you an idea of the type of staffing to make modern games today.
 
element said:
This might give you an idea of the type of staffing we are talking about for a game.

Ryan Payton
24 full time employees just for CG and 450 contractors. Now that isn't at the sametime. But that give you an idea of the type of staffing to make modern games today.

It depends on the scope of the game. Trials HD is a very modern looking HD game with a very pretty renderer but the game development team was 12 people at the most.

I'd love to know how many people worked on Wipeout HD.

If your game doesn't require a cast of thousands or big animation support....see Wipeout HD as a perfect example, your team size can shrink and you can create a very visual experience.

If you were to strip Halo Reach down to its bare elements on the multiplayer side you are probably looking at less than 200 individual art assets, and then levels on top of that. God there are really only 2 characters in the whole thing and then armour variations for them. 2 Character modellers tops for less than a year could do that work.
 
From 1up:

"Resident Evil: Afterlife, the most recent of the movies, made more than $236 million at the foreign box office, according to Box Office Mojo. That's far more than it made domestically after it was released in September 2010 -- it brought in just $60.1 million last year."

I think this is another perfect example of middle class movies are doing fine. Afterlife is no masterpiece, it didn't have a huge budget or a big target yet it succeeded in bringing in a healthy profit for everyone involved. In this case it brought in MORE than a healthy profit but even if it had made $100m+ WW it still would have been a success.

So it's not all or nothing. Middle class movies are doing fine. So are games. Only problem is that your backup margin if your next game fails is less. You don't have much money to fall back on if you fail with your next game. I just don't believe in the all or nothing philosophy.

A lot of 80% scoring games that didn't have a massive budget turned a small profit. That's success.
 
DjangoReinhardt said:
Good riddance to "middling" games. As far as I'm concerned, the world is a better place without the Preys and Turoks. There are way too many games being greenlit that have no chance at anything above mediocrity.

The world is a better place without the games with Native Americans in them? They have no chance at anything above mediocrity?

crying-indian-1.jpg
 
Host Samurai said:
If DMC4 is considered AAA big budget from Capcom than Bayonetta is definitely is not a mid tier game. To me mid tier budget games are Nier and Darksiders. Those are perfect examples of games with a lower budget.

Budget != Quality
 
What Mr.Brezinski said is remarkably similar to not only the movie industry, but also the music industry at large as well.

Hmmmm, what could possibly, conceivably be the thread that ties them together?
 
Not necessarily. All games shouldn't be priced at $60.
example- If I walk in a Gamestop with $130 and see something like The Saboteur for $60 sitting next to Uncharted 2 and GOW3. Its obvious whats going to happen next.

Price your game at what its really worth. and it could actually be successful.
Games should be priced between $30- $60.
In my opinion.
 
Warm Machine said:
It depends on the scope of the game. Trials HD is a very modern looking HD game with a very pretty renderer but the game development team was 12 people at the most.

I'd love to know how many people worked on Wipeout HD.

If your game doesn't require a cast of thousands or big animation support....see Wipeout HD as a perfect example, your team size can shrink and you can create a very visual experience.

If you were to strip Halo Reach down to its bare elements on the multiplayer side you are probably looking at less than 200 individual art assets, and then levels on top of that. God there are really only 2 characters in the whole thing and then armour variations for them. 2 Character modellers tops for less than a year could do that work.
I agree, it totally depends on your content or style of game you are making. But you can't really compare Trials HD to Heavy Rain. Self funded title to Sony published/funded/exclusive.

So are games. Only problem is that your backup margin if your next game fails is less. You don't have much money to fall back on if you fail with your next game.
The problem is many developers haven't been making enough money this generation. Profit means stay open. Success means reinvesting in future products. Not many developers have been able to reinvest, and many have not been able to stay open. Some studios with names have had to change their business model to stay open. Digital Extreme taking on multiplayer for BioShock 2. Silicon Knights doing assets for Darksiders. 2k Czech doing Top Spin 4 (WTF?).

I think this is another perfect example of middle class movies are doing fine. Afterlife is no masterpiece, it didn't have a huge budget or a big target yet it succeeded in bringing in a healthy profit for everyone involved. In this case it brought in MORE than a healthy profit but even if it had made $100m+ WW it still would have been a success.
There is a good article on why RE:Aftermath did so well overseas, is the 3D and how 3D has almost become an inadvertent detainer of piracy. You can't really film a 3D movie, so you can't really buy cam or telesync copies on the street.

A lot of 80% scoring games that didn't have a massive budget turned a small profit. That's success.
examples?
 
element said:
Enslaved is a perfect example of a middle tier game. Being AAA has nothing to do with the budget or talent, it is about sales and expected sales.

If your expected sales don't match your budget, there's your problem. Of course it has to do with budget.
 
I hate to say it, but a big part of the problem is with the gamers and the gaming media's obsession with production values.

If you want to see a movie, you pay the same whether its a blockbuster or an indie and that's all good, nobody's complaining. In gaming if you're not up there with the bleeding edge you get criticised even when you price lower.

The artistic and/or entertainment value is always behind graphical polish and feature-set when people make value judgements.
 
Clear said:
I hate to say it, but a big part of the problem is with the gamers and the gaming media's obsession with production values.

If you want to see a movie, you pay the same whether its a blockbuster or an indie and that's all good, nobody's complaining. In gaming if you're not up there with the bleeding edge you get criticised even when you price lower.

The artistic and/or entertainment value is always behind graphical polish and feature-set when people make value judgements.

It's not analogous.

Movies generally last the same amount of time. 1.5 to 3 hours and thus generally offer you a "few" hours of enjoyment. The variance in the amount entertainment a person gets out of movies is small enough such that cinemas can simply sell you a ticket for the same price whether the movie is 1 hour or 3 hours.

The difference in entertainment value between a middle-tier game and AAA production is usually much much wider. Generally due to the fact that all the other extra features like multiple multiplayer modes and various other extra features not only add to the development budget but can also greatly extend a game's longevity.

Middle-tier games with smaller budgets have smaller scopes and by definition won't have as much depth in their content and features that expand the longevity and playability of a game.

A good example is a game like Bayonetta that offers simply the core SP experience and not much else, whereas a game like Halo Reach offers nearly limitless possibility for it's longevity with all of the various modes and features. It's quite easy to see that gamers would see a game like reach as much better value for $60 than a title like Bayonetta.
 
I've finished listening to the talk. I know this stuff isn't meant for the average player to view, let alone dissect but I found it very interesting for the most part. There are a few things I want to comment on that I don't really see the logic behind, maybe someone can clarify for me.

The "we" thing, that is to say when Cliffy talks about the game he does so from a third person perspective to make it appear inclusive of the team. This is certainly an honorable thing, but for me I some times find it a frustration, not only because it appears more rote and less transparent, but also because I've seen it often when the person in question was ultimately nothing to do with the project they're referring to. For example (and this isn't criticizing him specifically, it's just an example I remember) I remember Ryan Payton talking in the same third person about Koji-Pro's respective opinion about games he wasn't involved with, for example "We look back at MGS2 and there's a lot we aren't happy with", or "When we made that we...".

The personality thing was kind of strange too, he was talking about how being a well known face of gaming is beneficial (and no question he is amongst the best known game designers in the world at this point, at least to a Western audience) but what about someone like Denis Dyack who is detested online and his game didn't do very well at all. I can't see how him getting his opinions out to the public benefited him, his company or his game. Cliffy happens to be a young, good looking enthusiastic guy, for those people a more PR role might be desirable, but I don't think that's any where near applicable as blanket advice to creators. It's funny too because he then followed that by talking about he's never met a Rockstar employee, that's a publisher who specifically avoids putting a face to the studio, you might get thirty seconds of Sam Houser talking about a new console, but that's basically it, and they're called Rockstar, but despite that they choose to make the products be the frontmen of the company, and ultimately if we're talking about sales, are considerably more successful than Epic.

I thought the part about keeping a player hooked was the most interesting though. I should preface by saying outside of playing Gears co-op, I am not really a fan of Epic's titles, but regardless I think the things he talked about I've found very true of the games I'm more keen on. The play session thing, I too don't like to commit to a long film unless I'm in the right move, but can easily find myself burning thru seasons of TV shows because of the optional breaking points. And although I don't like to think of easter eggs as audience and press manipulation devices, they're one of the things that makes certain games a lot more compelling. I think Portal did this incredibly well. You could remove any reference to Half-Life in that game and it'd still be amazing, but it was that stuff that made it truly fascinating, seeing the charts with Black Masa sales figures, or finding the keyboards with the highlighted letters pertaining to character names etc. Even though there ultimately wasn't all that much of that stuff, it made me wonder what else could be there if you dig deeper.

I want to say it's cool Gamespot hosted this and presumably Epic and Cliffy let them do so, because although this stuff is for developers, it's an interesting insight for anyone who cares about games I think.
 
Clear said:
I hate to say it, but a big part of the problem is with the gamers and the gaming media's obsession with production values.

If you want to see a movie, you pay the same whether its a blockbuster or an indie and that's all good, nobody's complaining. In gaming if you're not up there with the bleeding edge you get criticised even when you price lower.

The artistic and/or entertainment value is always behind graphical polish and feature-set when people make value judgements.

I don't think this is everything, but I do think this dog's in the fight. I hear a lot of "high production values" "cinematic presentation", and "great textures", and even louder when they aren't there (JANKY!!!!).

The layers of money covering it makes up for any other shortcomings; watch reviews of games that get second looked down a point or two later on once they have to live off gameplay, plot, and memorableness alone.

Middle-tier games with smaller budgets have smaller scopes and by definition won't have as much depth in their content and features that expand the longevity and playability of a game.

Well now, I wouldn't say that. Midtier games that feature smart multiplayer systems/mechanics/secrets/etc created from smart design, player-driven experience, or less setpiece-built game worlds often have real depth. Bayonetta on the other hand is a game from a genre that is usually small in scope when in reguards to this, so of course the extras won't be thick. Other genres don't have this choice forced upon them as much.
 
MikeE21286 said:
the middle class $60 game is dead

VARIABLE PRICING FOR GOD SAKES!!
Quoted once again for truth.

And as others have said, on the PC, Steam has mitigated this issue greatly with a superior pricing/marketing platform.
 
Brashnir said:
If your expected sales don't match your budget, there's your problem. Of course it has to do with budget.
many publishers overestimate their games, which is another problem.
 
itxaka said:
The ball
Penumbra

A couple of examples. Not indies games but also no "put 20 million into marketing" games.

How these games aren't indies? Unless indie strictly means two guys making games in the garage, I think those games are the perfect example of indies...
 
Top Bottom