• Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!

Clinton may win the popular vote by millions

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm surprised no one is mentioning how the removal of the electoral college would result in a huge boon in voter turn out.

Suddenly red votes in blue states matter, and blue votes in red states matter.

You'd see Voter turn out jump to over 80% easily.
 
I prefer a proportional voting system in europe but I can definitely see the case for the majority voting system in the US. When you have so many states with so many different interests it would be unfair/dangerous politically to have basically the big population rich coast areas rule over everyone.

The thing about those coast areas is that they tend to be the most diverse, too. You have more different kinds of people interacting with each other. It makes more sense to me to cater to that population then the more insular rural communities.
 
I'm surprised no one is mentioning how the removal of the electoral college would result in a huge boon in voter turn out.

Suddenly red votes in blue states matter, and blue votes in red states matter.

You'd see Voter turn out jump to over 80% easily.

It's been mentioned, but this typically goes ignored because at the end of the day for EC advocates: Land> People.
 
So the Electoral College has nothing to do with protecting small rural states and everything to do with swing states.

Florida is not a small state. Pennsylvania is not a small state. Montana is.

Your initial question is wrong and irrelevant.

The fact that there was a campaign stop in a given state is not the sole determining factor of whether that state's voice in the election was "protected."

The winner-take-all nature of the EC gives greater leverage over the candidates to all states, both small and large. This effect is far more pronounced for small states.

A more appropriate question is, "Would anyone care about New Hampshire in a popular vote scenario?"
 
I'm surprised no one is mentioning how the removal of the electoral college would result in a huge boon in voter turn out.

Suddenly red votes in blue states matter, and blue votes in red states matter.

You'd see Voter turn out jump to over 80% easily.

Yeah. The EC is by far the biggest dissentive to vote.
 
Your initial question is wrong and irrelevant.

The fact that there was a campaign stop in a given state is not the sole determining factor of whether that state's voice in the election was "protected."

The winner-take-all nature of the EC gives greater leverage over the candidates to all states, both small and large. This effect is far more pronounced for small states.

A more appropriate question is, "Would anyone care about New Hampshire in a popular vote scenario?"
Yes, in the absolute sense, because that is where the first primary is. Yes, because even Obama campaigned in Montana under the electoral college system. The appropriate analogy is the primary process--the candidates go to more states because it is a more close approximation of every vote counting. Why did the candidates in 2016 campaign in certain congressional districts of Maine and Nebraska, because their votes matter.
 
I fear that liberals in red states will only want to flock to CA/NY/etc. even more after this, and after the red states tank even further, and that will only make the problem worse in the future.

What do we do?
 
switching to an popular vote would ELIMINATE rural votes in their entirety.

well not eliminate, they would almost always LOSE though.

urban areas overwhelmingly vote liberal democrat
rural areas overwhelmingly vote conservative republican
most of the population in EVERY state live in urban settings or their immediate environs.

look at the votes by county for the country, look at what voted democrat this year and what voted republican.. as you move farther and farther away from the urban areas the more conservative the vote swings..

most of the country live in urban areas, not rural

take iowa for example99 counties:

clinton won..6 counties .
those 6 counties had these large(for IOWA) urban cities:

des moines and its immediate suburb/county to the north (144.4k)
cedar rapids (58.5k votes)
iowa city(50k votes)
davenport(40.3k
waterloo (32k votes

she lost EVERY other area, yet, she garnered 42% of the vote (650k votes)-HALF of which came from 6 counties she won. half of her votes came from the other 93 counties..~3500votes per county.
 
switching to an popular vote would ELIMINATE rural votes in their entirety.

well not eliminate, they would almost always LOSE though.

urban areas overwhelmingly vote liberal democrat
rural areas overwhelmingly vote conservative republican
most of the population in EVERY state live in urban settings or their immediate environs.

i'll never understand this logic: so you then posit that because the majority of the overall population find the current form of the GOP unelectable, the answer is then to game things until it is...?
 
i'll never understand this logic: so you then posit that because the majority of the overall population find the current form of the GOP unelectable, the answer is then to game things until it is...?

Rather than change their platform to appeal to a wider base, the republicans are much more concerned with limiting the appeal and/or accessibility of voting. American exceptionalism, indeed. In Europe their platform is so far right they'd be considered alt-right themselves.
 
1 Million people, ~600+ miles wide, ~250 miles in length. population pretty much equally spread.

Montana_population_map.png


If you hit all four of those tiny red dots you still only would have gotten close to 1/4 of the state's small population.
That's not the reason and you know it.
 
If the EC protects small rural states, why don't we see candidates campaigning more in Montana?

It kind of doesn't winning most or all the biggest state means you will win almost every time.
TX/CA/FL/GA/OH/MI/VA/PA/IL/PA winning those will guarantee a victory. They just so happen to be split due to the demographics of the parties. If every one of those big states were BG states no one will campaign in the smaller states or less so.
 
EC is not a "shit system." It's just that people don't understand how the electoral process works or what their votes are actually for. And when someone tries to tell them they just put their fingers in their ears and go "la la la doesn't matter, the system is broken."

It's both ignorant and disgusting that anyone would consider the votes of people in "flyover" states to be irrelevant. That's exactly the kind of thinking that the electoral college was created to defend against.

The U.S. Is a union of states. When people vote for president they're voting for who they want to represent their state, just like when they elect senators and representatives. The electoral college positions are awarded to the political party that wins the popular vote in the state. So every vote in California counts equally within the context of that state, just like every vote in Iowa does.

Saying that we should move to a national popular vote would disenfranchise small states. Why should California and New York decide the outcome of every election? Just because more people live there? Faced with infrastructure needs in California versus infrastructure needs in South Dakota, where do you think the money would go in a majority rule system?

Majority rule is probably the worst political system there is. There have to be checks and balances to protect the small states from the large ones. It sucks that this election turned out the way it did, but it wasn't a failure of the system.

I really don't care about the states. I care about the people living in them. A person in Montana should not carry any more or less electoral weight than a person living in California. With national popular vote, Dems would campaign in Texas, republicans in California to drive up their turnout. Emphasis would change, sure, but it would not simply be a drain from small states (most of which are already solid red or blue anyways). It would be far more democratic than what we have now, where the last two GOP presidents got into office with the majority of the population voting against them.
 
Yeah sorry guys, I will never understand why we still use the EC. Right now my vote in Utah means nothing nationally.

1 vote 1 person. full stop.

My vote in Utah should count the same as someone in LA or the rust belt.
 
First and foremost, because it went to one of the candidates by 20 points. This is obvious.
And you don't see anything wrong with that? How many swing states do you have again, a dozen or so? If your argument is "states matter", why exactly are you totally okay with the fact that, according to yourself, three quarters of them "obviously" don't matter because they're decided?

So instead giving presidential candidates at least some reason to go to some smaller states, it's fine to give them none (due to the states being solid blue or red) because... what, exactly?
 
States over people is one of the most baffling ideas that in surprised still exists

Why not counties? The USA may have been created as a union of states, but it also was created allowing slavery. Today, the idea is utterly ridiculous
 
EC is not a "shit system." It's just that people don't understand how the electoral process works or what their votes are actually for. And when someone tries to tell them they just put their fingers in their ears and go "la la la doesn't matter, the system is broken."

It's both ignorant and disgusting that anyone would consider the votes of people in "flyover" states to be irrelevant. That's exactly the kind of thinking that the electoral college was created to defend against.

The U.S. Is a union of states. When people vote for president they're voting for who they want to represent their state, just like when they elect senators and representatives. The electoral college positions are awarded to the political party that wins the popular vote in the state. So every vote in California counts equally within the context of that state, just like every vote in Iowa does.

Saying that we should move to a national popular vote would disenfranchise small states. Why should California and New York decide the outcome of every election? Just because more people live there? Faced with infrastructure needs in California versus infrastructure needs in South Dakota, where do you think the money would go in a majority rule system?

Majority rule is probably the worst political system there is. There have to be checks and balances to protect the small states from the large ones. It sucks that this election turned out the way it did, but it wasn't a failure of the system.
There are various ways to combat that one is the us electoral system another is the parliamentary system in place in places like uk India France etc . Which leads to unpopular ppl being elected too but doubt a trump would have happened given the current electoral split in that system ... So really depends ... Having said that both knew what they were fighting for and one won .
 
States over people is one of the most baffling ideas that in surprised still exists

Why not counties? The USA may have been created as a union of states, but it also was created allowing slavery. Today, the idea is utterly ridiculous

Slavery was abolished, the union of states wasn't (afaik).

How is the canadian election system in comparison?

It just seems really weird to me. For example this was earlier this year in Austria, the 2nd round of presidential election:


Yet the green party candidate won (eventhough the election was invalidated due to systematic failures later on). It's really a difficult matter and either you kind of have cities ruling over the rest of the country OR you have city votes being worth less than rural votes. Either way someone "loses".
 
I like how even the defenders of the EC agree that using the popular vote would increase voter turnout, but then continue to defend the EC. Having nearly half of your population abstaining from voting is incredibly pathetic.
 
As an outsider of the US Political System, this election has made me wonder, why did no one go after Trump the man?

- He states flat out lies.

- He wanted to build a wall around Mexico.

- He wanted to ban all Muslim immigration.

- He insulted the family of the people he was running against.

- He insulted a former soldier and his family.

I mean the list goes on. Why didn't anyone go all in on him? I mean I assume that this is all meant to be due to some belief that you don't want to go mud slinging, but why with Trump? The man regularly threw mud himself. Was it out of fear of making him appear like an under dog?
 
I like how even the defenders of the EC agree that using the popular vote would increase voter turnout, but then continue to defend the EC. Having nearly half of your population abstaining from voting is incredibly pathetic.

I think it's naive to expect numbers to rise so dramatically. Is there any evidence for that? Like I'd expect maybe 60-70% instead of 54%, but that would still be 30-40% not voting.
 
switching to an popular vote would ELIMINATE rural votes in their entirety.

well not eliminate, they would almost always LOSE though.

urban areas overwhelmingly vote liberal democrat
rural areas overwhelmingly vote conservative republican
most of the population in EVERY state live in urban settings or their immediate environs.

look at the votes by county for the country, look at what voted democrat this year and what voted republican.. as you move farther and farther away from the urban areas the more conservative the vote swings..

most of the country live in urban areas, not rural

take iowa for example99 counties:

clinton won..6 counties .
those 6 counties had these large(for IOWA) urban cities:

des moines and its immediate suburb/county to the north (144.4k)
cedar rapids (58.5k votes)
iowa city(50k votes)
davenport(40.3k
waterloo (32k votes

she lost EVERY other area, yet, she garnered 42% of the vote (650k votes)-HALF of which came from 6 counties she won. half of her votes came from the other 93 counties..~3500votes per county.
And?

Again, you are advocating that territory counts more than people when it comes to voting.
 
As an outsider of the US Political System, this election has made me wonder, why did no one go after Trump the man?

- He states flat out lies.

- He wanted to build a wall around Mexico.

- He wanted to ban all Muslim immigration.

- He insulted the family of the people he was running against.

- He insulted a former soldier and his family.

I mean the list goes on. Why didn't anyone go all in on him? I mean I assume that this is all meant to be due to some belief that you don't want to go mud slinging, but why with Trump? The man regularly threw mud himself. Was it out of fear of making him appear like an under dog?
They did. The entire back half of clinton's campaign was really nothing more than slinging dirt at Trump as a person, which is one of the bigger reasons why she lost.
 
Slavery was abolished, the union of states wasn't (afaik).

How is the canadian election system in comparison?

It just seems really weird to me. For example this was earlier this year in Austria, the 2nd round of presidential election:


Yet the green party candidate won (eventhough the election was invalidated due to systematic failures later on). It's really a difficult matter and either you kind of have cities ruling over the rest of the country OR you have city votes being worth less than rural votes. Either way someone "loses".

I love this map so much because this is a map asylum seekers per municipality
given the dates don't perfectly line up though.

Either way it's not like the concept of proportional votes is unheard of here in Austria the Landtag does grant more seats per capita to smaller states than large ones, it's just mostly powerless.
 
Man, I remember one of my civics teachers talk about how everyone complains about the electoral college, but it's always stayed around. This was just after the 2000 election.
 
It seems like the EC is really only a problem when the campaign that wins the popular vote is incompetent.
Yep. Essentially winning the popular but losing electoral college means you misplaced resources. It would be very easy to win popular vote if that's what you were going for in an Electoral College election. You simply spend campaign funding in states you were going to win or lose easily.

And that's what Clinton did. Through hopes/hubris of a big win they ran hard in states like Arizona. They lost there and we now know always would have, and that plus taking the 'firewall' for granted and sticking around in NY and California the whole time pushed the Dem vote up in all the wrong places.
 
Slavery was abolished, the union of states wasn't (afaik).

How is the canadian election system in comparison?

It just seems really weird to me. For example this was earlier this year in Austria, the 2nd round of presidential election:



Yet the green party candidate won (eventhough the election was invalidated due to systematic failures later on). It's really a difficult matter and either you kind of have cities ruling over the rest of the country OR you have city votes being worth less than rural votes. Either way someone "loses".
It really isn't a difficult matter. People are what matters, not land. The moment you get this simple fact through your head, you stop feeling the need to warp votes to make some voters more important than others just because they live in an area with low population density.

As has been mentioned many times before, states elect governors by popular vote. And in most of the country, even blue states are typically a ton of rural red counties with strong blue counties in its major cities and the surrounding suburbs. So why do those cities become blue? BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE THERE. Who gives a shit about how many counties are red, when most of the people live in one or two?
 
How about a system whrer every vote has the same weight....thats would be nice.
How can it be that there is a discussion about this. I mean i am not a citizen of the unites states, but how can it be, that the USA, the land of the free and the prime example of a democratic Nation has people in some place that have more weight in an election than people in another area.
 
How about a system whrer every vote has the same weight....thats would be nice.
How can it be that there is a discussion about this. I mean i am not a citizen of the unites states, but how can it be, that the USA, the land of the free and the prime example of a democratic Nation has people in some place that have more weight in an election than people in another area.
Apart from oddities of populations not matching EC seats in correct ratios, every vote is worth the same.

The only thing that changes is that your vote means more statistically if your neighbours are more politically diverse, since you're more likely to contribute to swinging a county or state. A vote in California is worth the same, but all your neighbours voting blue makes your vote less statistically important.
 
Apart from oddities of populations not matching EC seats in correct ratios, every vote is worth the same.

The only thing that changes is that your vote means more statistically if your neighbours are more politically diverse, since you're more likely to contribute to swinging a county or state. A vote in California is worth the same, but all your neighbours voting blue makes your vote less statistically important.
That "odditity" itself is the point of contention.

Beyond that, the fact that a candidate needs a simple majority to win a state, and all of its electoral votes go to that candidate, tends to only suppress turnout for voters of both parties in safe states.
 
@ D.Lo

how so?

Wyoming has 3 electors and 586,107 pop. = 195,369 ppl per elector

California has 55 electors and 39,144,818 pop. = 711,724 ppl per elector.


HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE! This is bullshit. Sry but this system tells me that a citizen in wyoming has more wight than one in california. I would feel really pissed if i were a citizen of california.

There is imho no place for discussion only for change.
 
Apart from oddities of populations not matching EC seats in correct ratios, every vote is worth the same.

The only thing that changes is that your vote means more statistically if your neighbours are more politically diverse, since you're more likely to contribute to swinging a county or state. A vote in California is worth the same, but all your neighbours voting blue makes your vote less statistically important.

It's not though.

Any blue vote in a red state is worthless.
Any red vote in a blue state is worthless.

A vote in a smaller population state is worth more than a larger population state.
 
It really isn't a difficult matter. People are what matters, not land. The moment you get this simple fact through your head, you stop feeling the need to warp votes to make some voters more important than others just because they live in an area with low population density.

As has been mentioned many times before, states elect governors by popular vote. And in most of the country, even blue states are typically a ton of rural red counties with strong blue counties in its major cities and the surrounding suburbs. So why do those cities become blue? BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE THERE. Who gives a shit about how many counties are red, when most of the people live in one or two?

I would completely agree if we talked about a geographically smaller country but we're talking about a union of 50 different states with sometimes diamentrally different interests. Popular vote alone would fuck over all the smaller states.

If you look at the EU, there is a reason why you only have one seat in the commission/council/european council per country and a proportionality system in the parliament preferring smaller countries(Germany at 96 seats with 81millionen people, Malta at 6 seats with 424k people). Because otherwise Germany (along with France) would dominate everyone even more and/or the smaller states would leave (because they would essentially not have any say/importance at all).
 
I would completely agree if we talked about a geographically smaller country but we're talking about a union of 50 different states with sometimes diamentrally different interests. Popular vote alone would fuck over all the smaller states.

This is what the Senate is for.
 
That "odditity" itself is the point of contention.

Beyond that, the fact that a candidate needs a simple majority to win a state, and all of its electoral votes go to that candidate, tends to only suppress turnout for voters of both parties in safe states.
This is true, hence why I mentioned it. If it was purely a ratio based on population of those eligible to vote it would smooth that over.

But that's basically what it is. Anyone who mentions Alaska, Wyoming, Vermont etc are being disingenuous, as they have higher representation per vote simply because they sit on the minimum of three seats, one representative and two senators each. And that oddity has little impact overall.

It's not though.

Any blue vote in a red state is worthless.
Any red vote in a blue state is worthless.

A vote in a smaller population state is worth more than a larger population state.
This is nonsense. Any blue vote in a red state is NOT worthless. If you get enough of them you turn the state blue.

The smaller population states don't have much impact overall, and as I mentioned above the difference is only that three minimum seats. Wyoming would have NO say if it was purely proportional, and therefore might as well be out of the union.
 
It should simply be illegal not to vote, like jury duty.

And there should be heavy penalties for writing in shit like Harambe.

If, and it's a big if, you force people to vote, you have to give them an option that lets them opt out of every question if they don't want to have a say, don't like any of the choices, or whatever.

That's the only you can make it work. You can't force people to choose even if you force them to vote.
 
States over people is one of the most baffling ideas that in surprised still exists

Why not counties? The USA may have been created as a union of states, but it also was created allowing slavery. Today, the idea is utterly ridiculous

Well "United" States basically means that. The whole conceit was that it was gonna be a loose federation. States versus Federal Rights has been a debate since the founding of this country.
 
This is nonsense. Any blue vote in a red state is NOT worthless. If you get enough of them you turn the state blue.

So tell me how many Electoral college votes Clinton got for Florida?
How many EC votes did Trump get for California?
How many EC votes did Trump get for Illinois?
How many EC votes did Clinton get for Michigan?
 
So tell me how many Electoral college votes Clinton got for Florida?
How many EC votes did Trump get for California?
How many EC votes did Trump get for Illinois?
How many EC votes did Clinton get for Michigan?

Your argument is that any votes for the loser in a winner-take-all contest are worthless.

Whether true or not, it is the same whether it's a state vote or the national vote.
 
I would completely agree if we talked about a geographically smaller country but we're talking about a union of 50 different states with sometimes diamentrally different interests. Popular vote alone would fuck over all the smaller states.

If you look at the EU, there is a reason why you only have one seat in the commission/council/european council per country and a proportionality system in the parliament preferring smaller countries(Germany at 96 seats with 81millionen people, Malta at 6 seats with 424k people). Because otherwise Germany (along with France) would dominate everyone even more and/or the smaller states would leave (because they would essentially not have any say/importance at all).
The US doesn't only have proportional votes for the EC afaik. It's also not directly comparable since we both don't have the winner takes it all approach and because we vote for a parliament which then elects a president from among them in the EU and lastly because the president of the european parliament doesn't hold nearly as much governance.
 
I can't tell if people are being purposely obtuse or just naive in thinking that the electoral college is necessary due to "states".

We already have the United States senate which is more than enough to give a voice to small states. To think that we need to give small states the electoral college to also give them more power is just obscene. To top it off the House of Representatives is already slanted towards small states and rural areas as well.

So basically people in the cities are fucked by our government system

The electoral college absolutely had to go unless you believe in fucking over the majority of the United States
 
I would completely agree if we talked about a geographically smaller country but we're talking about a union of 50 different states with sometimes diamentrally different interests. Popular vote alone would fuck over all the smaller states.

If you look at the EU, there is a reason why you only have one seat in the commission/council/european council per country and a proportionality system in the parliament preferring smaller countries(Germany at 96 seats with 81millionen people, Malta at 6 seats with 424k people). Because otherwise Germany (along with France) would dominate everyone even more and/or the smaller states would leave (because they would essentially not have any say/importance at all).

Where this goes wrong is that, in the US, small states don't really have characteristically different interests from large states. There's a slight tendency for states with relatively high rural populations to have low overall populations, and that's about it. This federation model makes sense when what you've got is actually a federation, but the US is pretty clearly a single nation. Like, just look at your example - the relationships between US states are just totally different from the relationships between EU members. Political divisions in the US really have very little to do with state borders - just geographically, what we've got is an urban/rural divide and then to a lesser extent a regional divide. California and Texas are just not going to team up to dominate Oklahoma and Oregon.

I'm surprised no one is mentioning how the removal of the electoral college would result in a huge boon in voter turn out.

Suddenly red votes in blue states matter, and blue votes in red states matter.

You'd see Voter turn out jump to over 80% easily.

This is really implausible. Right now, swing state votes are more important than they would be without the electoral college, and they don't see turnout much above 70%.
 
If, and it's a big if, you force people to vote, you have to give them an option that lets them opt out of every question if they don't want to have a say, don't like any of the choices, or whatever.

That's the only you can make it work. You can't force people to choose even if you force them to vote.

Australia's compulsory vote does this, you can intentionally spoil your ballot. All they check is that you showed up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom