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[Hawkian]

this weapon has no place in suburban environment.

crazy people are crazy yeah but allowing crazies get their hands on assault rifles... then disaster happens.

take away their access to these type of guns and they will do less damage.

yeah a crazy person may use a knife, but he won'T get as far.

Ban assault rifles

I'm not commenting on the content of your post, I just want to let you know something because I made this same mistake the other day.

Technically speaking, assault rifles are all but banned in the United States. They are also not used in these sorts of mass killings.

The problem is, semi-automatic assault weapons that are rifles are not assault rifles.

 

[Orayn]

If people in this thread want to get serious, they should redirect their efforts at banning large and/or detachable magazines, rather than "assault rifles."

Especially if think anything that looks like a member of the AR-15 family is capable of fully automatic fire.

 

[Hawkian]

If people in this thread want to get serious, they should redirect their efforts at banning large and/or detachable magazines, rather than "assault rifles."

Especially if think anything that looks like a member of the AR-15 family is capable of fully automatic fire.

I think what people who don't know all that much about guns mean to refer to when they say "assault rifles" or "automatic" is "relatively accurate weapons with large capacity magazines and high rates of fire." We get caught up in the technicality of the terms sometimes.

I'm not sure about your second sentence though. Assault weapons in general are designed to look exactly like their selective-fire counterparts, and the AR-15 itself, not just members of its family, is available in a fully-automatic version.

Regardless, fully-automatic weapons are never used in these kinds of mass killings. Actually if they were they'd probably result in fewer deaths because of the sacrifice of accuracy. But that's really neither here nor there.

 

[LordCanti]

If people in this thread want to get serious, they should redirect their efforts at banning large and/or detachable magazines, rather than "assault rifles."

Especially if think anything that looks like a member of the AR-15 family is capable of fully automatic fire.

Something tells me that they'll try to make it harder for the mentally ill to get firearms, because there is so much opposition to any changes in laws pertaining to which guns can be bought, or which accessories, etc. I don't know that the NRA would stonewall legislation requiring doctors (psych or otherwise) to report people to a background check database, or laws keeping drug addicts from getting guns, but I know they'd stonewall any attempt to have semi-automatic rifles banned. I'm not sure what their stance would be on the banning of extended magazines/clips/whatever, but I doubt they'd be for it.

 

[Ziltoid]

I'm sure the killer is linked with certain brands of food to. I must know which ones so I can protect myself from becoming a crazed lunatic.

 

[alphaNoid]

this weapon has no place in suburban environment.

crazy people are crazy yeah but allowing crazies get their hands on assault rifles... then disaster happens.

take away their access to these type of guns and they will do less damage.

yeah a crazy person may use a knife, but he won'T get as far.

Ban assault rifles

Thats .223 standard semi automatic rifle.. low caliber round chambered rifle. Don't let a big scope, shoulder stock, or a tripod trick you into thinking this is some kind of urban automatic killing machine. Its designed for long range, high velocity, very low caliber rounds.. mostly used by hunters.

At close range, a would be killer could be more effective with a pistol. ARs are mostly an enthusiast thing in the gun community, people build, collect and/or hunt with them. They are never designed for close range, tight corridor, home defense type situations. Lastly, they are one of the worst kinds of guns to use if you want to inflict the most damage.

If you guys want to ban guns that could most likely kill the most people in a lunatics hands, ban shotguns and then pistols.. nots ARs. Good luck with trying to get the government to do that.

 

[thetrin]

Hickenlooper also fought to criminalize weed in Colorado, and continues to be the two-faced politician he was when he was mayor of Denver. Hopefully this too falls on deaf ears.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

I know Michael Moore isn't necessarily the shinning example of journalism, but he made a very apt comparison to Canada ten years ago. The two countries are very similar, closest thing to America really, but Canada doesn't have a gun violence problem. It's not the videogames, it's not the glorification of violence, and its not that Canada doesn't have crazy people.

 

[rac]

America is fucked up. We'd get rid of videogames before guns.

 

[ksan]

Thats .223 standard semi automatic rifle.. low caliber round chambered rifle. Don't let a big scope, shoulder stock, or a tripod trick you into thinking this is some kind of urban automatic killing machine. Its designed for long range, high velocity, very low caliber rounds.. mostly used by hunters.

At close range, a would be killer could be more effective with a pistol. ARs are mostly an enthusiast thing in the gun community, people build, collect and/or hunt with them. They are never designed for close range, tight corridor, home defense type situations. Lastly, they are one of the worst kinds of guns to use if you want to inflict the most damage.

If you guys want to ban guns that could most likely kill the most people in a lunatics hands, ban shotguns and then pistols.. nots ARs. Good luck with trying to get teh government to do that.

Funny that they're marketed for those situations though!

 

[thetrin]

America is so fucked up. We'd get rid of videogames before guns.

Hickenlooper is just jumping on the band wagon. He says shit because he knows its popular. I'd be surprised if he believed any of it. That's pretty much how he rose up the ranks. Dude's a snake.

 

[ReBurn]

Video games do have an influence. I mean, after playing so much Grand Theft Auto III I swear my brain superimposed "Trashmaster" over my field of vision every time I saw a garbage truck. I didn't go out and kill hookers, though.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I don't think video games, music or movies affects sane, rational people like us. I think we're all aware that those of us with the mental fortitude and aptitude to entertain this thread discussion and this question are aware of that.

HOWEVER, the question remains: Is our reality true of someone who would be diagnosed with "extreme depression"? How about schizophrenia? Selective mutism? Bi-polar disorder? How does the irrational, chemically-imbalanced brain interpret and internalize Expendables 2 or Safe or _______ (pick a Tarentino film)? Do their mentally ill brains know to put the pleasure they got popping heads off in Call of Duty or Halo into the area of the brain that separates gaming from reality? Do we know for sure that the familiarity created by simply seeing Glocks, Sigs, S&W's, along with ARs and other heavy weaponry so frequently via games and movies don't cause the mentally ill and would-be criminals to seek those out by preference? That the desensitization that happens to all of us (making most of us a bit more apathetic to gore and voilence) doesn't actually make them more prone to act on the violence they're thinking about?

I don't know that we have any information about this angle of the question, and yet this is absolutely germane to the question. No, it is at the very heart of the question. Information so crucial, I submit to you all that we can't even have this conversation fully without it. How these things affect the mentally ill in particular have to be studied asap.

 

[Arc]

It was only a matter of time before the videogames got blamed.

 

[Akuun]

Actually when you're really into a game of Starcraft, you aren't watching the violence. You are watching your resource management and your positioning. You barely even see anything die because that's not what you're looking at.

 

[speculawyer]

StarCraft? Really? What a weird game to link.

I mean yeah, it is about war . . . but it is a strategy game about various aliens battling each other.

 

[LordCanti]

I don't think video games, music or movies affects sane, rational people like us. I think we're all aware that those of us with the mental fortitude and aptitude to entertain this thread discussion and this question are aware of that.

HOWEVER, the question remains: Is our reality true of someone who would be diagnosed with "extreme depression"? How about schizophrenia? Selective mutism? Bi-polar disorder? How does the irrational, chemically-imbalanced brain interpret and internalize Expendables 2 or Safe or _______ (pick a Tarentino film)? Do their mentally ill brains know to put the pleasure they got popping heads off in Call of Duty or Halo into the area of the brain that separates gaming from reality? Do we know for sure that the familiarity created by simply seeing Glocks, Sigs, S&W's, along with ARs and other heavy weaponry so frequently via games and movies don't cause the mentally ill and would-be criminals to seek those out by preference?

I don't know that we have any information about this angle of the question, and yet this is absolutely germane to the question. No, it is at the very heart of the question. Information so crucial, I submit to you all that we can't even have this conversation fully without it. How these things affect the mentally ill in particular have to be studied asap.

I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that the mentally ill can't dictate what content other adults should have access to.

Mental illness is clearly a huge part of the problem though, no matter what takes the average mentally ill person (of which there are tons) and turns them into a mass killer (of which there are very few by comparison).

 

[alphaNoid]

Funny that they're marketed for those situations though!

Sure, lots of products are marketed for many reasons.. that doesn't mean thats what they're designed for. The absolute best home defense gun will always be a shotgun, seconded by a .45 ACP chambered pistol.

America is fucked up. We'd get rid of videogames before guns.

I'm not being very serious but ... guns have been around long before video games. Mass killing at schools of teenagers, adults or children is something that has only been occurring over the last decade or two. Why is that? Did guns suddenly become more deadly or did society change somewhere along the line? If the latter.. what changed? Why is society more prone to mass killings with guns, killing kindergardeners.. now, rather than in the 1950s, 1970s, 1800s? Why do people want to go murder a much of people on their way out now instead of just jumping off a bridge?

What changed? Was it the guns? A gun is a tool.. Now I'm not saying its video games, I don't think it is. But wouldn't it make more sense to look at it from a higher level than blaming 'TEH GUNZ!'? A gun is a tool, it doesn't kill anyone it sits there doing nothing until a human picks it up and doees something crazy with it. Why are humans doing this now and weren't doing this in mass in the past? I think if we can answer that question we can find a better solution to ending these killings long before we ban "TEH GUNZ!" Society is broken, clearly.. so take away the guns and I'm sure a willing would be lunatic will simply find another way to go out in a blaze of glory.

 

[Bisnic]

America is fucked up. We'd get rid of videogames before guns.

Do you see videogames in the 2nd amendment? DO YOU?

 

[dinazimmerman]

Thanks for the informative posts, Hawkian.

 

[Hari Seldon]

What we should do is ban guns, movies, and video games, from people who are insane. Actually, just lock them up like we used to. Employ some of the billions of unemployed psychology majors to deal with these people so the rest of society doesn't have to suffer for the actions of a handful of people.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I don't know the answer to that question, but I do know that the mentally ill can't dictate what content other adults should have access to.

There are some anti-gun GAFers that would like to have a word with you.

Mental illness is clearly a huge part of the problem though, no matter what takes the average mentally ill person (of which there are tons) and turns them into a mass killer (of which there are very few by comparison).

Agreed. Still not talked about enough. But it's among the harder to address aspects.

What we should do is ban guns, movies, and video games, from people who are insane. Actually, just lock them up like we used to. Employ some of the billions of unemployed psychology majors to deal with these people so the rest of society doesn't have to suffer for the actions of a handful of people.

sarcasm detector is broken. can't tell if srys.

 

[rac]

Do you see videogames in the 2nd amendment? DO YOU?

Holy shit you are right. America its time to get these videogames of the street!

 

[Count Dookkake]

What about violent books, like ones about history or religion?

 

[LordCanti]

There are some anti-gun GAFers that would like to have a word with you.

Keeping people from possessing certain firearms (for reasons of mental illness) is on an entirely different level than keeping people from viewing media. I do think that it's legal to keep adults from owning weapons, but not from viewing certain content (within reason; which basically means no CP or videos of people porking animals).

 

[Hawkian]

Thanks for the informative posts, Hawkian.

Very welcome! Please, if you see anybody reference Craig A. Anderson, please call them out. He is the antithesis of what we need right now: irrational, reactionary, willing to ignore counters to his claims and thirsty for a scapegoat.

I don't think video games, music or movies affects sane, rational people like us. I think we're all aware that those of us with the mental fortitude and aptitude to entertain this thread discussion and this question are aware of that.

HOWEVER, the question remains: Is our reality true of someone who would be diagnosed with "extreme depression"? How about schizophrenia? Selective mutism? Bi-polar disorder? How does the irrational, chemically-imbalanced brain interpret and internalize Expendables 2 or Safe or _______ (pick a Tarentino film)? Do their mentally ill brains know to put the pleasure they got popping heads off in Call of Duty or Halo into the area of the brain that separates gaming from reality? Do we know for sure that the familiarity created by simply seeing Glocks, Sigs, S&W's, along with ARs and other heavy weaponry so frequently via games and movies don't cause the mentally ill and would-be criminals to seek those out by preference? That the desensitization that happens to all of us (making most of us a bit more apathetic to gore and voilence) doesn't actually make them more prone to act on the violence they're thinking about?

I don't know that we have any information about this angle of the question, and yet this is absolutely germane to the question. No, it is at the very heart of the question. Information so crucial, I submit to you all that we can't even have this conversation fully without it. How these things affect the mentally ill in particular have to be studied asap.

I actually disagree. They affect them in ways that we absolutely cannot use to dictate censorship. The specifics of those ways are irrelevant.

There are some anti-gun GAFers that would like to have a word with you.

He said what CONTENT. Media. I know you're not being deliberately obtuse.

What about violent books, like ones about history or religion?

While the point you're making is humorous and well-taken, it's worth noting that: while it's extremely uncommon for someone to specific involve a work of media as inspiration for an act of murder, in the one instance I can think of, it was a book.

 

[FStop7]

CNN stealth DOTA fans.

 

[FStop7]

This is the gun that the shooter used to kill all those poor kids...

How come the Gov doesn't ask the question of "Why was this type of gun sold to a civilian?" "Why is a gun like this being made available to non-military personel?" "What do you need a gun of this magnitude for, if you are not in the military?"

Nope... none of that will ever be addressed. All we'll hear is that he did this because of video games, or violent movies, or some other bullshit excuse, so that these politicians don't piss off the gun lobbyists.

No it isn't. He did take a rifle but left it in the car. He used handguns.

I get your concerns with the overall issue but don't spread misinformation...

 

[Hawkian]

No it isn't. He did take a rifle but left it in the car.

Er, you're confused.

The AR-15 was used to kill either most or all of the people at the school. A shotgun was found in the car.

I get your concerns with the overall issue but don't spread misinformation...

Oh man. Unless absolutely certain of the circumstances you shouldn't call people out for essentially doing what you just did. :-/

 

[forgeforsaken]

No it isn't. He did take a rifle but left it in the car. He used handguns.

I get your concerns with the overall issue but don't spread misinformation...

You may want to check your information, as you are the one spreading misinformation.

 

[Count Dookkake]

While the point you're making is humorous and well-taken, it's worth noting that: while it's extremely uncommon for someone to specific involve a work of media as inspiration for an act of murder, in the one instance I can think of, it was a book.

Yeah, I'm not talking about Catcher in the Rye.

I'd wager that the vast majority of criminals have owned, at one point in their life, a copy of the bible. This warrants more study than video games, imo.

 

[thetrin]

America is fucked up. We'd get rid of videogames before guns.

It certainly does sound incredibly fucking stupid when you think about it that way.

 

[Hawkian]

I'd wager that the vast majority of criminals have owned, at one point in their life, a copy of the bible. This warrants more study than video games, imo.

Sure, in the way that cricket warrants more of my attention than curling.

 

[I H8 Memes]

No it isn't. He did take a rifle but left it in the car. He used handguns.

I get your concerns with the overall issue but don't spread misinformation...

I think that the initial report stated that the rifle was left in the car. Since then the reports I've seen have said that everyone was killed with the rifle. But I have not followed the details of the actual shooting closely enough to state that as a fact.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I actually disagree. They affect them in ways that we absolutely cannot use to dictate censorship. The specifics of those ways are irrelevant.

We will disagree, then. In fact, you didn't really even entertain the question if you don't think the answer to that question has any relevance to this issue, or that there are absolutely no ways to address it. Early diagnosis, for example, can direct parents to curb the intake of certain kinds of entertainment.

He said what CONTENT. Media. I know you're not being deliberately obtuse.

I misread his answer.

 

[Hawkian]

I think that the initial report stated that the rifle was left in the car. Since then the reports I've seen have said that everyone was killed with the rifle. But I have not followed the details of the actual shooting closely enough to state that as a fact.

I have, and he was wrong. It may not be completely clear if everyone or just the majority of the children were killed with the AR-15, but there is no doubt that it was used. A shotgun was found in the car.
edit:

No it isn't. He did take a rifle but left it in the car. He used handguns.

I get your concerns with the overall issue but don't spread misinformation...

I'm just quoting this for posterity in case some sort of retroactive edit war occurs.

We will disagree, then.

The society that your premise leads us inexorably to cannot allow any content at all.

A mentally unstable person could be inspired to kill by an episode of the Teletubbies (or, I don't know why I thought of this in particular but... The Catcher in the Rye).

In fact, you didn't really even entertain the question if you don't think the answer to that question has any relevance to this issue, or that there are absolutely no ways to address it. Early diagnosis, for example, can direct parents to curb the intake of certain kinds of entertainment.

That is an entirely relevant point and completely unrelated to the content itself.

 

[Kentpaul]

The sun newspaper in scotland was blaming blops 2 today

 

[Arcteryx]

You may want to check your information, as you are the one spreading misinformation.

As is stating "this is the rifle the shooter used", when in-fact, that is NOT the rifle.

The people re-posting that stupid picture from Twitter are no different than those stating that video games are the issue. Both are using misinformation and scare-tactics to pin the blame on something they know NOTHING about. Talk of assault weapons, automatic rifles and clips...if you want to debate something without being torn apart, please read up on the subject first, otherwise you'll end up sounding like those suggesting that CoD is a terrorist training simulator.

 

[rac]

It certainly does sound incredibly fucking stupid when you think about it that way.

Yeah, I guess videogames are just an easier target.

 

[Hawkian]

As is stating "this is the rifle the shooter used", when in-fact, that is NOT the rifle.

The people re-posting that stupid picture from Twitter are no different than those stating that video games are the issue. Both are using misinformation and scare-tactics to pin the blame on something they know NOTHING about. Talk of assault weapons, automatic rifles and clips...if you want to debate something without being torn apart, please read up on the subject first, otherwise you'll end up sounding like those suggesting that CoD is a terrorist training simulator.

Forgive my ignorance, but what gun is that in the image?

Not to defend people who are posting that image if it is falsely equating it with the rifle used, but it does look very similar to an AR-15:

edit: A picture of Bushmaster's iteration specifically, with fewer frills:

 

[Arcteryx]

Forgive my ignorance, but what gun is that in the image?

Not to defend people who are posting that image if it is falsely equating it with the rifle used, but it does look very similar to an AR-15:

It is an AR15; however, they are suggesting it is the SAME one used in the crime, when it is in-fact NOT. I too can find the most "scary" looking image of a gun and claim it was used in the crime, just as I can find pictures of the "scariest" looking video game and claim the killer played it. What does that accomplish?

 

[Violet_0]

I say ban all videogames
then ban Rock & Roll, just to be save

 

[Hawkian]

It is an AR15; however, they are suggesting it is the SAME one used in the crime, when it is in-fact NOT. I too can find the most "scary" looking image of a gun and claim it was used in the crime, just as I can find pictures of the "scariest" looking video game and claim the killer played it. What does that accomplish?

I shouldn't have to point out to you that comparing the weapon used to kill people to the media the killer consumed is absurd, but wouldn't it be a bit more like showing COD4 instead of BF3, or something?

 

[Rootbeer]

Your stock is falling, CNN

 

[Jburton]

It is an AR15; however, they are suggesting it is the SAME one used in the crime, when it is in-fact NOT. I too can find the most "scary" looking image of a gun and claim it was used in the crime, just as I can find pictures of the "scariest" looking video game and claim the killer played it. What does that accomplish?

So it is the same gun, just without the attachments?

I think you are being purposefully difficult.

 

[Arcteryx]

I shouldn't have to point out to you that comparing the weapon used to kill people to the media the killer consumed is absurd, but wouldn't it be a bit more like showing COD4 instead of BF3, or something?

They are both equally absurd. Picking a random (scary) photo from google and stating it is the actual weapon is no different IMO than picking a random video game (be it Postal, CoD, or BF3) and saying the killer played it.

So it is the same gun, just without the attachments?

I think you are being purposefully difficult.

No, I just see it in the same light as video games. People suggesting he played CoD, when maybe all he did was play CiV4. Misrepresentation is misrepresentation no matter the circumstances.

 

[Hawkian]

So it is the same gun, just without the attachments?

I think you are being purposefully difficult.

Apparently yes, and I actually don't think we know what attachments the assailant's gun had yet either way. :-/

They are both equally absurd. Picking a random (scary) photo from google and stating it is the actual weapon is no different IMO than picking a random video game (be it Postal, CoD, or BF3) and saying the killer played it.

Is that the gun (the same model as developed by Armalite, not the exact same version with the same attachments) or not?

If it is, then no, they are not equally absurd. In fact, even if it wasn't, you seem to be implying that if they showed the actual gun (which by all rights i'd consider really fucking scary if it were pulled on me) it would in some way be less scary, or less compelling or something.

edit: And by the way, the "misinformation" forgeforsaken was referring to was FStop7 saying that the killer not only didn't use this gun to kill the victims, but left it in the car, and used only handguns. You know what? You ow the people participating in this discussion and apology. That was fucked up.

 

[twofold]

Here's a clip of their Starcraft bashing broadcast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHzTlkAGNIE

It also features some Professor to confirm it has all been scientifically proven, my bet is that you can simply look at who funded his projects to figure out why he's saying that. Also note his broadly accepted conclusion is extremely generalized, it could apply on literature to documentaries about WWII.

How can they call Starcraft a 'violet video game' when they're able to air unedited footage at 8:30am? So dumb.

 

[Hawkian]

How can they call Starcraft a 'violet video game' when they're able to air unedited footage at 8:30am? So dumb.

That is an exceptionally cogent point and it makes me very sad.

 

[Palette Swap]

Serious question because I haven't followed the news too closely: have there been calls to curb on shitty journalism in the aftermath of the Ryan Lanza fuckup?