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COMICS! December |OT| Santa is a superheo, right?

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I picked up the first TWD trade after the show first aired last year (before that started sucking hard) and all my comic bros were saying "Oh it's the best, once you read one you'll want to read them all!" After that first trade I thought the dialog was so bad I almost never want to read anything by him ever again.

Keep in mind that's literally all I've read from Kirkman, so my perspective is limited.
 
Satchwar said:
i also wished more comics would stop using those damn narration boxes and would just let the art work tell the story

i was reading Batwoman the other day and i noticed that there havent been any in the book at all so far. i don't even think they were in Elegy
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It always amazed me how very little Chris Claremont distrusted his artists. His prose style writing is an abomination. Icky.
 
Claremont's writing actively changes depending on the artist he has. Early Cockrum/Byrne Claremont is like reading a prose novel. Paul Smith's lean, smooth pencils are aided by Claremont dialing back his verbosity. Romita Jr it comes and goes. Later day Silvestri/Lee Claremont is actually approaching something closer to a modern comic book structure, but with added mature to his themes and characterizations, through years and years of writing the damn things.
 
ViewtifulJC said:
Claremont's writing actively changes depending on the artist he has. Early Cockrum/Byrne Claremont is like reading a prose novel. Paul Smith's lean, smooth pencils are aided by Claremont dialing back his verbosity. Romita Jr it comes and goes. Later day Silvestri/Lee Claremont is actually approaching something closer to a modern comic book structure, but with added mature to his themes and characterizations, through years and years of writing the damn things.
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he dialed it back a ton as the byrne run went on (one of the reasons why it was so great) and badly reverted when cockrum came back
 
Teh Hamburglar said:
It always amazed me how very little Chris Claremont distrusted his artists. His prose style writing is an abomination. Icky.
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I guess it hasn't aged well, but it was the best of its day.

I can't even say it hasn't aged well because I reread it all the time. It's like Dickens or something. Stylistically uncontemporary but still fantastic.
 
One of my favorite superhero comic sequences happens during the Silvestri era, Madelyne's insecurities about Scott's love for her versus the returning Jean Grey seeping into her dreams. Images are too big, but I'll link to them

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1536093.html

Now Silvestri's eye for detail is easily apparent and a joy to behold: Madelyne begins to cry as she is disassembled by Scott, but when Scott takes her eyes and places them on the Jean figure, the tears remain, re-contextualized now as signifiers of joy rather than terror. Note as well the way Cyclops wears his X-Men costume throughout most of the fantasy, but it quietly becomes his X-Factor outfit just before he, Jean and the baby disappear.

Yet, I also think Claremont really makes the sequence work. Throughout this surreally awful process, Scott’s dialogue is emotionless and brusque. “I’m really sorry,” he says. “But I loved someone else first. And best. Her needs take priority. There, that’s better. A few more details ... the finishing touches, pulled from the copy ... and the original will be restored ... good as new.” The final panels could speak for themselves, but I think his narration really drives it home.

edit: aw crap, tiny pic is banned now? well, link to original source is above, but really just the last three pages I wanna look at
 
ViewtifulJC said:
One of my favorite superhero comic sequences happens during the Silvestri era, Madelyne's insecurities about Scott's love for her versus the returning Jean Grey seeping into her dreams. Images are too big, but I'll link to them

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/1536093.html

Now Silvestri's eye for detail is easily apparent and a joy to behold: Madelyne begins to cry as she is disassembled by Scott, but when Scott takes her eyes and places them on the Jean figure, the tears remain, re-contextualized now as signifiers of joy rather than terror. Note as well the way Cyclops wears his X-Men costume throughout most of the fantasy, but it quietly becomes his X-Factor outfit just before he, Jean and the baby disappear.

Yet, I also think Claremont really makes the sequence work. Throughout this surreally awful process, Scott’s dialogue is emotionless and brusque. “I’m really sorry,” he says. “But I loved someone else first. And best. Her needs take priority. There, that’s better. A few more details ... the finishing touches, pulled from the copy ... and the original will be restored ... good as new.” The final panels could speak for themselves, but I think his narration really drives it home.

edit: aw crap, tiny pic is banned now? well, link to original source is above, but really just the last three pages I wanna look at
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internet-bro-fist.jpg


The Silvestri Era gets overlooked. There's some great issues in there. The Brood story (which I think those scans are from), the Genosha story, Wolverine getting crucified, etc. It's a shame Inferno was in there.
 
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
internet-bro-fist.jpg


The Silvestri Era gets overlooked. There's some great issues in there. The Brood story (which I think those scans are from), the Genosha story, Wolverine getting crucified, etc. It's a shame Inferno was in there.
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Even the Claremont/Silvestri issues of Inferno are damn good reads, filled with humor, character building, and we even get to see the Original Five X-men vs Claremont's current crop of X-men, which is a dream match-up.

I'll go on record and say the Genosha story is the best Claremont X-men story. Top to bottom, its a picture-perfect example of storytelling economy balancing density of information, a social allegory that never stops being a superhero book, and somehow manages to further its own plotlines.

Excalibur Inferno is good because again, Claremont is good and Alan Davis is GOD. Its those X-Factor issues that are COMPLETELY FUCKING TERRIBLE and rob the story of most of its power.
 
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
i can think of plenty of instances of chris claremont letting his artists doing the work

im not sure why youre singling him out either because doing a lot of dialogue used to be the norm
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I didn't say he never allowed his artists to carry the story.

So because it was the norm I have to like it? I understand the historical significance Claremont had on the industry but this is 2011. His second run X-Men and Xtreme were garbage through and through. Not sure what you are getting at here.
 
So...I spent around $100 today on raiding the Daredevil back issues sections of 3 different comic shops in my hometown. Got close to 60 issues. Daaaamn. My wife would kill me, but she's not gonna know!
 
Teh Hamburglar said:
I didn't say he never allowed his artists to carry the story.

So because it was the norm I have to like it? I understand the historical significance Claremont had on the industry but this is 2011. His second run X-Men and Xtreme were garbage through and through. Not sure what you are getting at here.
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What evidence do you have that he distrusted his artists then? I'm not sure what you were getting at with that comment. I thought you meant that he overwrote the books because he didn't trust them to convey the story with just pictures, but that's not true. He also let most of them co-plot the book with him.

As for the second part, do you not like the way any comics were written before 1980 or so? Claremont's style of writing is a lot less obtrusive than someone like Stan Lee or Jack Kirby.

ViewtifulJC said:
I'll go on record and say the Genosha story is the best Claremont X-men story. Top to bottom, its a picture-perfect example of storytelling economy balancing density of information, a social allegory that never stops being a superhero book, and somehow manages to further its own plotlines.
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Genosha is definitely one of the best. The New Mutants/X-Men Asgard story he did with Art Adams is up there too. Although it doesn't have much to do with the main message of X-Men lol.
 
ViewtifulJC said:
I haven't liked a single thing Claremont has done post-1991. And man, I have tried.

We'll still have the good times, though.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n69/roilier/kurtloganuxm163.jpg[./IMG][/QUOTE]

Reminds me of:

[IMG]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60530/1344403-494799_uncanny_x_men_159_16_super_1__super.jpg
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Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
What evidence do you have that he distrusted his artists then? I'm not sure what you were getting at with that comment. I thought you meant that he overwrote the books because he didn't trust them to convey the story with just pictures, but that's not true. He also let most of them co-plot the book with him.

As for the second part, do you not like the way any comics were written before 1980 or so? Claremont's style of writing is a lot less obtrusive than someone like Stan Lee or Jack Kirby.



Genosha is definitely one of the best. The New Mutants/X-Men Asgard story he did with Art Adams is up there too. Although it doesn't have much to do with the main message of X-Men lol.
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I don't have comics scanned on my computer but just looking at the two scans below I see two examples. Wolverine walks by and says "Nightcrawler is praying?" when we obviously can see what he is doing from the art. And to make it clear what hes doing Wolverine says "I didn't peg you for the religious type." Obviously, Nightcrawler is praying.

Or in the second scan with Nightcrawler and Dracula "Nightcrawler, you have hurt me." Well duh. The artist just drew Dracula in pain yelling "aaargh!" Or when we're told by the word balloon "Wolverine pops his claws and forms a cross" well we would know that because we have an artist.

Its stuff like that that bugs the hell out of me. We get dialogue, aesthetics and action from the writer and whats that leave for the artist to do? To show us what we already know? They were obviously wildly successful stories in their day but I don't enjoy them as a self contained story. Within a historical or nostalgic context is a whole different thing.
 
Teh Hamburglar said:
I don't have comics scanned on my computer but just looking at the two scans below I see two examples. Wolverine walks by and says "Nightcrawler is praying?" when we obviously can see what he is doing from the art. And to make it clear what hes doing Wolverine says "I didn't peg you for the religious type." Obviously, Nightcrawler is praying.

Or in the second scan with Nightcrawler and Dracula "Nightcrawler, you have hurt me." Well duh. The artist just drew Dracula in pain yelling "aaargh!" Or when we're told by the word balloon "Wolverine pops his claws and forms a cross" well we would know that because we have an artist.

Its stuff like that that bugs the hell out of me. We get dialogue, aesthetics and action from the writer and whats that leave for the artist to do? To show us what we already know? They were obviously wildly successful stories in their day but I don't enjoy them as a self contained story. Within a historical or nostalgic context is a whole different thing.
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Wolverine's reaction isn't to establish that Nightcrawler is praying, it's to establish that he's surprised Nightcrawler is praying.

Dracula's dialogue (You have hurt me...but I am far from beaten) isn't to establish that he's been hurt. It's there to establish that he's hurt but he's still well enough to keep fighting the X-Men.

They're both probably a tad verbose (which doesn't bother me, I don't think comic book characters necessarily have to talk like real people) but I don't see how they suggest Claremont doesn't trust his artist. Obviously the artists didn't think that either since practically every big artist of the 70s, 80s, and 90s was begging to work with him.
 
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
Wolverine's reaction isn't to establish that Nightcrawler is praying, it's to establish that he's surprised Nightcrawler is praying.

Dracula's dialogue (You have hurt me...but I am far from beaten) isn't to establish that he's been hurt. It's there to establish that he's hurt but he's still well enough to keep fighting the X-Men.

They're both probably a tad verbose (which doesn't bother me, I don't think comic book characters necessarily have to talk like real people) but I don't see how they suggest Claremont doesn't trust his artist. Obviously the artists didn't think that either since practically every big artist of the 70s, 80s, and 90s was begging to work with him.
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I also wonder if these were written with the Marvel method. Which means he wrote the dialogue over the art.
 
BenjaminBirdie said:
I also wonder if these were written with the Marvel method. Which means he wrote the dialogue over the art.
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I know for sure that's the way him and Byrne did it. Not sure beyond that. It probably varied by artist. I think past the 80s the artist always got co plotter credit when they did it that way.

Bonus: Byrne and Claremont's plans up until UXM 150

byrnexmen.jpg
 
Anyone recommend any good documentaries about silver age artists and writers.

I caught lecture by Arlen Schumer on youtube and liked it.

Stuff like Jonathan Ross's documentary on Steve Ditko would be great.
 
OMG, a friend told me about this today

legion-lost.jpg


How the hell did I miss this?! One of my fave Legion stories! And I also missed out on the DC Comics Presents: The LoSH 100-Page Spectacular #1 (Legion of the Damned!) Guess that's what I get for dropping out of comics earlier this year. =/

Can't wait to see if my comic shop has 'em tomorrow. SO HAPPY! =)
 
Claremont always had big long plans, but for various reasons he'll drop a subplot for like 9 months and it'll come up later, either because of editorial interference, or his mind just wanders to something else.

I know Remender is a big long-term plotter. He's had all 32 issues of Fear Agent planned out since the inception, he's had the first two years of Venom planned at since the first issue, and he just confirmed on Twitter he's got the basic beats down for year 2 of UXF.
 
ViewtifulJC said:
Claremont always had big long plans, but for various reasons he'll drop a subplot for like 9 months and it'll come up later, either because of editorial interference, or his mind just wanders to something else.

I know Remender is a big long-term plotter. He's had all 32 issues of Fear Agent planned out since the inception, he's had the first two years of Venom planned at since the first issue, and he just confirmed on Twitter he's got the basic beats down for year 2 of UXF.
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Claremont planned on making Sabretooth Wolverine's dad before his first appearance in 1977 and didn't even have them appear in the same issue together until Mutant Massacre in 1986 (I think?). That's insanely long planning. He also created Mr. Sinister with Dave Cockrum and didn't debut him into well into the Silvestri run.
 
ViewtifulJC said:
Claremont always had big long plans, but for various reasons he'll drop a subplot for like 9 months and it'll come up later, either because of editorial interference, or his mind just wanders to something else.

I know Remender is a big long-term plotter. He's had all 32 issues of Fear Agent planned out since the inception, he's had the first two years of Venom planned at since the first issue, and he just confirmed on Twitter he's got the basic beats down for year 2 of UXF.
Click to expand...

He was ifanboy's Talksplode talking about Secret Avengers, his take on artificial automatons in the 616 and his take on Captain Britain, Avalon (Otherworld). Seemed excited to play with all these concepts and now I can't wait to pick up Secret Avengers. He gave hints of upcoming bad guys in issue 18 of UXF.

Hickman is also a meticulous planner/plotter. Slott has has the upcoming sinister six storyline in ASM planned out for sometime. I love this planning and foreshadowing stuff when it pays off well.
 
Nesotenso said:
That one on Kirby was going to be my next one. Thanks

Any other recommendations would be appreciated.
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If you can find it (I know it's on youtube somewhere) watch Masters of Comic Book art. It's not specifically about the Silver Age but it's great. It's from 1988 and it's basically a series of interviews of famous comic book artists. Some of them are new (for 1988) like Frank Miller and Berni Wrightson but they interview Kirby, Eisner, Neal Adams, Ditko (just his voice since he refuses to go on camera) etc. Plus Harlan Ellison is the host. It's well worth a watch.
 
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
If you can find it (I know it's on youtube somewhere) watch Masters of Comic Book art. It's not specifically about the Silver Age but it's great. It's from 1988 and it's basically a series of interviews of famous comic book artists. Some of them are new (for 1988) like Frank Miller and Berni Wrightson but they interview Kirby, Eisner, Neal Adams, Ditko (just his voice since he refuses to go on camera) etc. Plus Harlan Ellison is the host. It's well worth a watch.
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Ditko doesn't like talking to anyone, does he ? He talked to Gaiman in the Ross documentary if I am not mistaken and only Ralph Macchio had his contact info. Guy was ( or still is) a big believer in Ayn Rand.
 
Nesotenso said:
Ditko doesn't like talking to anyone, does he ? He talked to Gaiman in the Ross documentary if I am not mistaken and only Ralph Macchio had his contact info. Guy was ( or still is) a big believer in Ayn Rand.
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Yeah it's just a voice over while they show his art. Also the voice over is just him rambling about Objectivism and not much about comics. It's pretty bizarre, but he was a strange guy.
 
Captain America #5, so painfully mediocre. This whole damn story arc. Brubaker's decompressed writing is on full display here. "If a break a sentence down..." *next panel* "...into one narration box per panel..." *next panel* "...I'll have this page complete and it'll sound like I said something profound...". Halfway through the story, Steve McNiven just stops drawing it, and suddenly Camuncoli pencils. Then McNiven comes back, and THEN Camuncoli pencils in the same fucking scene! Goooood I hate this rushed comic production so much, this whole book stinks of a quick buck. Not to mention the sixth issue came out today as well. WTF? Why?

Because Captain America has to tie-in with Avengers vs the X-men in April, so we gotta stretch these stories out to five months and fill-up time. They have planned so far ahead with these stories that they are now on a rigid schedule, so they just HAVE to come out when they come out, even with half a dozen different artists and inkers. Deadlines >>> everything else.
 
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