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[Atomski]

before continuing with your post I'm gonna need a detailed argument as to why DOTA 2 is deeper than other competitive genres found on consoles (probably starting with fighting games and first person shooters)

I feel like its so obvious that it would be dumb to even try to explain it..

What fighter/fps do you need to control multiple characters at once?
What fighter/fps do you need to control a camera that is completely free from your character while still controlling that character?
What fighter/fps do you need to make quick decisions about buying gear that could counter/help in certain situations.
In what game do you need to select your character carefully based on what your team has.. but also what your opposing team has?

The list can go on.. I cant think of a single console game this complex competitive wise.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I don't at all understand what you're trying to say. That smarter people play PC games thus the mobas work on that platform? Console people aren't capable of learning how to play the same way PC people were?

I'm saying they are capable of all that. I felt the concensus was that MOBAs would gather little interest on consoles due to how steep the first couple of hours are and on how many mechanics there are to take care of like micro management and so forth. This assumption is probably based on shallow, simplistic games topping console sales charts time and time again.
However, I could totally see console gamers cope with the level of depth a full-fledged MOBA has to offer. At this point, it might well just be the pad issue keeping the genre from taking over consoles as well.

edit: Bit surprised that people are this offended tbh. Didn't intend to offend anybody. I could totally see a MOBA succeeding on consoles, I just wanted to ask whether you do too. I love the genre and I'd enjoy to share it with as many as possible. Also, I consider the lack of a high profile MOBA on consoles a travesty.

 

[ekim]

Well the angry community is already present on consoles

on topic:
I don't know if I would want to do lots of micro management with a controller.

 

[Technosteve]

Comparing a fighting game to a moba? You guys got jokes. Wake me up when you go to carry four other players on your back to get the W.

 

[SamVimes]

I feel like its so obvious that it would be dumb to even try to explain it..

What fighter/fps do you need to control multiple characters at once?
What fighter/fps do you need to control a camera that is completely free from your character while still controlling that character?
What fighter/fps do you need to make quick decisions about buying gear that could counter/help in certain situations.
In what game do you need to select your character carefully based on what your team has.. but also what your opposing team has?

The list can go on.. I cant think of a single console game this complex competitive wise.

Stop fighting ignorance with ignorance, fighting games are some of the hardest games around to excel at and you can make examples like that about them really easily.

 

[Interfectum]

Comparing a fighting game to a moba? You guys got jokes. Wake me up when you go to carry four other players on your back to get the W.

Let us all bathe in your leet dota skills.

 

[Crystalkoen]

56 posts in, talking about MOBAs on console, and nobody has mentioned Awesomenauts yet? At least Guardians of Middle-Earth got a mention.

'course, the PS3/X360 version of Awesomenauts didn't get much support due to the distributor going under. Supposedly fixed in the PS4 release so they can update it regularly.

I'm thinking a game like SMITE could work well on consoles as well. Third-person, over the shoulder view? Worked for Diablo.

 

[dave is ok]

I have only played a little bit of it - 11 hours -, but using the word depth seems comical. In 11 hours I have only ever seen one map. One map.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

If you played like 22 hours you would be at the international in about a month.

 

[Anony]

control wise, i think the gamepad could properly be implemented to play mobas
too bad no one will be interested in making a moba on wii u
(would play a nintendo centric dota)

 

[dave is ok]

56 posts in, talking about MOBAs on console, and nobody has mentioned Awesomenauts yet?

We're talking about depth and complexity on a console game and Awesomenauts is a very simple game, even if it is a MOBA

 

[TheBowen]

Level of complexity wise - yes

Dota 2 or mobas period - no. not with a controller. there is entirely too much precision needed that requires a keyboard and mouse

Pretty much this. Complexity wise huge depth can be done, such as fighting games as someone has mentioned.

But Dota was built around the mouse and keyboard, and even trying to think of dota 2 on Consoles with a controller just confuses me. just imagining someone trying to control timbersaws chakram ultimate with an analog stick is confusing, and thats pretty basic ulti.

 

[Crystalkoen]

We're talking about depth and complexity on a console game and Awesomenauts is a very simple game, even if it is a MOBA

Eh, that is true. I know a lot of people are getting caught up on control schemes, hence my comment. A game doesn't need a complex control scheme to be a deep game. The games I mentioned would be easy from a control standpoint, but I definitely agree on the lack-of-depth, at least for Awesomenauts.

 

[ComputerMKII]

This. Its the same reason you dont see much RTS type games on consoles.

You can use a keyboard and a mouse on consoles, that's what USB ports are for

 

[danmaku]

That's not true. The moves are usually visually distinct, e.g. Zangief's SPD so you have a rough idea how to avoid them. Also designers to try to reduce obtuse properties, if a character crouches and kicks upwards, a new player will roughly know the hitbox (mid) and hurtbox (low profile).

Oh no, it's very true. You can pick Eddie in Tekken and destroy newbies just by mashing buttons, because his moves have confusing hitboxes and noobs can't know the right answer when a character has 100+ moves. Arcsys games often have bizarre animations that give you no informations on hitboxes (Valk has an overhead that looks like an uppercut!).

And that's not touching all the strategy involved in mixups, safe/unsafe moves, frame traps, mind games, etc. All stuff you need to learn and it's very difficult to do it when the game is so fast (did I have bad reflexes or was it simply impossible to block that move?). The internet is a big help, but when we didn't have it the difference in skill between players of different areas was gigantic.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

If it comes on console then it has to be keyboard and mouse only. There is no getting around that. I am sure that there are console owners that will take the time to understand the game, but you have to remember the console audience. Simple games and cinematic experiences sell the best.

 

[Interfectum]

Some of you keep getting stuck on the "Dota 2 on consoles" part and not understanding what the OP is saying.

 

[Nyx]

mobas period - no. not with a controller. there is entirely too much precision needed that requires a keyboard and mouse

Nope.

Awesomenauts Assemble f.e. works flawlessly on consoles and I think we had some more. (the LOTR one of which I forgot the name and I think Smite is coming to PS4 as well)

 

[BokehKing]

Been wanting to make this thread but can't because I'm a junior member.

If Diablo cam be played with a Controller why can't a moba? Ps4 has mouse and keyboard support?


But honestly the one system that should have a moba.... Is Nintendo.... Look at Heroes of the Storm... That's compromised of all of blizzards Allstars.... Take the Nintendo universe, the Mario the metroid the Zelda and Pokémon.... And make it happen

 

[SamVimes]

Been wanting to make this thread but can't because I'm a junior member.

If Diablo cam be played with a Controller why can't a moba? Ps4 has mouse and keyboard support?


But honestly the one system that should have a moba.... Is Nintendo.... Look at Heroes of the Storm... That's compromised of all of blizzards Allstars.... Take the Nintendo universe, the Mario the metroid the Zelda and Pokémon.... And make it happen

Because they're completely different games.

 

[Atomski]

Stop fighting ignorance with ignorance, fighting games are some of the hardest games around to excel at and you can make examples like that about them really easily.

Fighters are great and all and I do still think theres a lot more stuff to take into account for a moba. I mostly just feel like they are to hindered by online play..

Even if I wanted to spend the time becoming great at fighters it is almost pointless unless I have a local fighting community for tournaments or want to drive 3 states over where there is one.

Its crazy to think how much Mobas probably dwarf the fighting community these days...

 

[Hylian7]

I'm pretty sure fighting games like KOF, SF and Tekken require the same amount of time investment to be at the top level.

Not a big fan of Dota 2 as an example though, they have a lot of "what killed me?" moments which makes you alt-tab to the wiki constantly, plus complexity-from-quantity design elements like Invoker.

You do realize in Dota 2, when you die it shows you who killed you, and you can see a damage breakdown by ability of what all killed you.

Invoker is just one of the more unique hero designs of Dota. Learning how to invoke all of the spells is no more complex than memorizing the hotkeys in StarCraft. In fact I would say it is easier because the combinations make logical sense.

You have your three orbs: Quas (Ice/Strength/HP), Wex (storm/agility/speed), and Exort (Fire/Intelligence/Damage)

A couple of spell examples:

Sun Strike - Exort Exort Exort - It's Invoker's highest damage spell, and it is a strike from the SUN, the hottest source of FIRE.

Ice Wall - Quas Quas Exort - It's a wall made of Ice, but you need a bit of fire to cut it to make it into a wall.

Logical complexity like this is something that really makes Dota special. There are many other complex heroes too, as all as ones that fall under "Easy to learn, hard to master." I think Pudge is an example of that. His spells are nothing hard to understand, but landing the hooks can be quite hard without practice. Eventually though, you can get to the point where you can grab people without even seeing them first.

 

[OceanBlue]

I don't know if you could have a game with as much breadth of mechanics as a game like Dota 2. As a casual observer, some of the gameplay decisions people are bring up don't stand out as being particularly deep on their own, but being good at all of those things at the same time is definitely difficult. I'd imagine that managing all of those things on a controller would be more difficult than on a keyboard/mouse too, but I've never played any console MOBA games lol.

 

[TheBowen]

Been wanting to make this thread but can't because I'm a junior member.

If Diablo cam be played with a Controller why can't a moba? Ps4 has mouse and keyboard support?


But honestly the one system that should have a moba.... Is Nintendo.... Look at Heroes of the Storm... That's compromised of all of blizzards Allstars.... Take the Nintendo universe, the Mario the metroid the Zelda and Pokémon.... And make it happen

It's not exactly an argument of whether a MOBA can be made on consoles, in fact awesomenauts is a good example of one that works well on both consoles and PC, but whether a MOBA of both the complexity and depth of dota 2 and LoL can be created and work on a console.

A MOBA built specifically from the ground up for consoles could work if they removed most abilities that require 'extreme' precision , but already existing mobas such as Dota 2 and LoL i don't think could ever work on consoles simply due to the limitations of the controller.

 

[we.are.the.armada]

Sure, kb/m support and good to go.

 

[jon bones]

There are already tons of games with as much or more depth than MOBAs on consoles.

Many, like fighting games, have the added benefit of actually being fun and interesting to boot!

And the FG community isn't a toxic cesspool, which is nice. Though it is hilarious to make fun of people who use their 3,000 hour playtime as a platform for elitism....

 

[traveler]

The demand isn't there. The fighting game genre is pretty much the only "deep" systems focused genre that succeeds on consoles, and even it is a) accessible and fun to those who don't invest in it- something Dota is definitely not- and b) played by a niche of the console crowd, rather the mass market, unlike the games that take E3 front stage. If the console crowd wants mechanical depth and substance, the games they elevate with their attention and dollars, for the most part, don't show it.

Been wanting to make this thread but can't because I'm a junior member.

If Diablo cam be played with a Controller why can't a moba? Ps4 has mouse and keyboard support?


But honestly the one system that should have a moba.... Is Nintendo.... Look at Heroes of the Storm... That's compromised of all of blizzards Allstars.... Take the Nintendo universe, the Mario the metroid the Zelda and Pokémon.... And make it happen

Diablo has less hotkeys of importance- 6 abilities vs. (typically) 4 abilities + 6 item slots- doesn't require camera management/looking anywhere other than your character, is PvE instead of PvP which is inherently less punishing, (outside of hardcore, I guess) has substantial changes to the core game like dodge and the targeting system that should not be made to a competitive game/would "dumb it down", doesn't require control of multiple characters + a courier like dota does, doesn't have last hitting as a core mechanic- which basically means you need to precisely time attacking one specific enemy out of a crowd of enemies-and I'm sure there are a few more reasons I'm missing.

I think a console moba could work, but it would need to focus on the strengths of the console control scheme rather than trying to emulate the PC. Scribblenauts was sort of on the right track here. I think a movement focused, rather than a precision focused, moba is the right idea. It might actually be the best home for the 3D moba.

 

[dave is ok]

Back to the one map complaint for a second. The map is probably the single most impressively complex piece of Dota. You have to learn juke paths and pull spots (including ones you need to cut down a tree for) and spawn boxes for neutral camps, how creep equilibrium works and how to stack and pull. It's the one thing that makes Dota more complicated than your typical fighting game, in my opinion. The hero on hero fighting in Dota is relatively simple, even if there are 100+ of them you need to recognize four to six abilities for.

 

[HK-47]

Yeah, the pad issue is obviously a thing. Let's push it aside for now and just focus on whether the console gamers would cope with the level of complexity and whether a MOBA could break into the console market if it wasn't for the controlling problem. No idea how to solve that tbh.

LoL and Dota are two of the most popular games in the world. Clearly complexity is not a barrier to entry.

 

[Sande]

Console MOBA would just have to be 3rd person like Smite. Isometric wouldn't really work. I'm pretty sure a well made MOBA would do amazing on consoles because there's absolutely no competition right now. It would have total monopoly until someone else decides to do it too. I'm honestly a bit surprised we don't have anything at the moment.

 

[Timeaisis]

I think you are confusing depth with complexity, OP. There are plenty of deep games that don't require 200 hours to learn the mechanics -- like fighting games. However, these take a long time to master because of all the different choices at any given moment, which is where the depth comes from.

So, yes, that depth already exists on consoles. The complexity is likely too much for average gamers, though. Let's quit talking like less complexity is a bad thing.

 

[Usobuko]

Fighters are great and all and I do still think theres a lot more stuff to take into account for a moba. I mostly just feel like they are to hindered by online play..

Even if I wanted to spend the time becoming great at fighters it is almost pointless unless I have a local fighting community for tournaments or want to drive 3 states over where there is one.

I don't know to what degree you implied when you said you want to 'get good'. For professional players, online tournaments for Moba are worthless as well. It's always lan that counts. One prominent example is during the period between TI to TI2, SEA teams were considered to enjoy far better ping than their chinese counterparts.

You always need community and networking to foster your competitive skills and to go pro. In fact, networking was what Maelk considered to be the most important. Basically, unless you are salarized by Riot for LoL because the NA Pro teams consistently whine for some babysitting, no other Moba has it easy. One can dedicate all they want to brush up their individual skills but since Moba is a team game, it's a complete different playing field when you played as a team.

 

[collige]

Been wanting to make this thread but can't because I'm a junior member.

If Diablo cam be played with a Controller why can't a moba? Ps4 has mouse and keyboard support?

There's not even close to enough buttons for one. Console controllers have 14 buttons whereas for Dota you need 12 keys just for items and abilities. I also explained some of the other problems with my last post.

 

[BokehKing]

Ok well maybe not a Dota/LoL quality moba, by. Nintendo should make a dumbed down version, maybe I'm clueless on what a Moba is. But Fat Princess/Happy Wars

 

[jon bones]

.Let's quit talking like less complexity is a bad thing.

But then how can we talk about how much smarter PC gamers are than Console gamers?

 

[Kinthalis]

Lol, people actually think the console gamer demographic, the ones who constantly jeer at so called "esports" in just about every thread dealing with them, the mah comfy couch people? The I just want to press X to win people? The people who think complexity and nuance and depth are actually BAD things that need to go away? That they would actually get into a MOBA that wasn't utterly dumbed down, in any appreciable numbers?

HAHA! good one guys, good one.

 

[SamVimes]

There are already tons of games with as much or more depth than MOBAs on consoles.

Many, like fighting games, have the added benefit of actually being fun and interesting to boot!

And the FG community isn't a toxic cesspool, which is nice. Though it is hilarious to make fun of people who use their 3,000 hour playtime as a platform for elitism....

guys we have the arbiter of fun and interest right here

 

[Atomski]

I think you are confusing depth with complexity, OP. There are plenty of deep games that don't require 200 hours to learn the mechanics -- like fighting games. However, these take a long time to master because of all the different choices at any given moment, which is where the depth comes from.

So, yes, that depth already exists on consoles. The complexity is likely too much for average gamers, though. Let's quit talking like less complexity is a bad thing.

I think its kinda the other way around.. people talk like games being to complex is a bad thing.

 

[traveler]

Ok well maybe not a Dota/LoL quality moba, by. Nintendo should make a dumbed down version, maybe I'm clueless on what a Moba is. But Fat Princess/Happy Wars

I actually think a Nintendo moba, their distaste for esports and online centric design aside, could be really promising. If you replaced the core feedback loop of things like last hitting, stacking and pulling- precise, point and click activities- with platforming oriented gameplay suited to a console controller and really utilized 3d space and the Nintendo catalogue of IPs, they could create a legitimately different and worthwhile console moba.

 

[KarmaCow]

It's pretty much the same thing that makes RTS's shitty on Controllers:

-many (most) abilities are targeted, you have to move the mouse and click on the spot you want to cast. And you have to do this very quickly and precisely

-dota specifically also has many heroes that control multiple Units at once.

-camera control would also be an issue since it's important to be able to move it idenpendetly from your hero.

effictient inventory management would probably also be an issue, though that's probably sovlabe.

i'm sure there's more that doesn't come to mind right now.

-

There's two big things that your absolutely need the mouse for in addition to last hitting:
-aiming skillshots and AOEs
-camera control

The camera control issue is a lot bigger since you need to be able jump to any point on the map quickly then re-center the camera on your hero. There's also the problem of navigation. If you're using the left analog stick for movement like a traditional top down console game, then you would have to have your hero in view constantly in order to properly navigate the environment. With mouse clicks, you can often leave navigation to the pathing algorithm, which then frees you up to look at whats going on somewhere else on the map, browse the shop, etc.

Ah yea camera control, I forgot about that. Makes sense, it's not something you can properly detach from the character on a controller.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

Lol, people actually think the console gamer demographic, the ones who constantly jeer at so called "esports" in just about every thread dealing with them, the mah comfy couch people? The I just want to press X to win people? The people who think complexity and nuance and depth are actually BAD things that need to go away? That they would actually get into a MOBA that wasn't utterly dumbed down, in any appreciable numbers?

HAHA! good one guys, good one.

Jesus, talk about generalising and master race shit. This is a bad, bad post.

 

[funkypie]

If they could nail down last hitting with a controller just as easy as easy it is with a mouse then yeah it is possible. Certain heroes and features would need to be omitted for controller balance.

I would love a dota on my ps4, I would play it more than the PC version.

 

[Technosteve]

Let us all bathe in your leet dota skills.

skeet skeet skeet, if dota had fucking 3rd strike parrying

 

[GifGafIsTheBestGaf]

it will be tlg/beastsouls levels of megaton

they should port dota2 and make it m/k(maybe move) only till they figure out how to use the ds4

 

[Usobuko]

I think it is essentially pointless to discuss skillset as if it can be easily replicated from genre to genre, especially when they are vastly different. It's not impossible, just very very rare.

There are a lot of complex console games I like, which also usually happened to sell like shit most of the times, and it's discouraging to see them getting dismiss in this thread.

 

[Zissou]

I feel like its so obvious that it would be dumb to even try to explain it..

What fighter/fps do you need to control multiple characters at once?
What fighter/fps do you need to control a camera that is completely free from your character while still controlling that character?
What fighter/fps do you need to make quick decisions about buying gear that could counter/help in certain situations.
In what game do you need to select your character carefully based on what your team has.. but also what your opposing team has?

The list can go on.. I cant think of a single console game this complex competitive wise.

You, by yourself, control multiple characters simultaneously in MOBAs? I was not aware this was a common thing.

 

[jon bones]

Lol, people actually think the console gamer demographic, the ones who constantly jeer at so called "esports" in just about every thread dealing with them, the mah comfy couch people? The I just want to press X to win people? The people who think complexity and nuance and depth are actually BAD things that need to go away? That they would actually get into a MOBA that wasn't utterly dumbed down, in any appreciable numbers?

HAHA! good one guys, good one.

ugh, so embarassing

 

[traveler]

You, by yourself, control multiple characters simultaneously in MOBAs? I was not aware this was a common thing.

Character specific. Not all characters will require it, but certain heroes (Chen, Enchantress, Visage, Meepo, etc.) do.

I think it is essentially pointless to discuss skillset as if it can be easily replicated from genre to genre, especially when they are vastly different. It's not impossible, just very very rare.

There are a lot of complex console games I like, which also usually happened to sell like shit most of the times, and it's discouraging to see them getting dismiss in this thread.

They're getting dismissed precisely because they sell like that. The question in this thread is can Dota can successful on consoles- not can it work, will people like it, etc. For reference, games like Dota and LoL have the highest userbases of ANY game out there period on PC right now; contrast that with the typical console sales of actual mechanically deep games like, say, a Platinum game and you start to understand the dismissive attitude some of us have about deep games and success in the console space. Look at the games the console manufacturers put front and center, look at the games that sell really well in the console space- they aren't by and large deep games.

 

[Interfectum]

Lol, people actually think the console gamer demographic, the ones who constantly jeer at so called "esports" in just about every thread dealing with them, the mah comfy couch people? The I just want to press X to win people? The people who think complexity and nuance and depth are actually BAD things that need to go away? That they would actually get into a MOBA that wasn't utterly dumbed down, in any appreciable numbers?

HAHA! good one guys, good one.

 

[dave is ok]

There are a lot of complex console games I like, which also usually happened to sell like shit most of the times, and it's discouraging to see them getting dismiss in this thread.

Complexity is usually a bad thing in a game. Same with difficulty.

It's a rare thing that a game like Dota or Dark Souls does very well in spite of the fact that it's not very intuitive