KojiKnight
Member
Serious question... would you sacrifice 60fps for a less bland looking game?
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Critique: Zelda Link to the Past 2 doesn't look "lived in"
- Thread starter Uncle Rupee
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Serious question... would you sacrifice 60fps for a less bland looking game?
As a little aside: I was always kinda annoyed how the pits in LTTP would only show jagged edges on the near and far side.
Mr.Squirrel
Tom
Cosign, shits retarded.
Serious question, should people be satisfied that the sequel to a game as legendary as A Link to the Past looks like a fan game?
I really don't get how his point still stands since its pretty impossible to tell if the game is even doing what he posted at this moment in time.
I think for me I don't have a problem with the graphical quality itself, but I do have an issue with the art direction. The warm reds and browns in the tower dungeon resemble old-school 1970s colour schemes, and seem to make things look old and cheap.
Here's an example of a 70's colour scheme: http://rottencupcakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/25crushedvelvetsofaofyourpa.png
Also, in the outdoor shots despite the game being in 3D, the depth kind of throws me off. First of all, everything is similar saturation-wise, making very little atmospheric depth. If you look at something close-up, it tends to have richer colours than something that has layers of atmosphere before it. I know they want link to pop on-screen, but the fact that they made those bushes stick out so much makes it seem like they could be above the trees, like in this shot for example: http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/image111.jpg?w=650
I know this is nitpicking and gleaned all from a short trailer. I'm still gonna buy it and love the shit out of it, but I had to add the two things that stuck out to me.
Here's an example of a 70's colour scheme: http://rottencupcakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/25crushedvelvetsofaofyourpa.png
Also, in the outdoor shots despite the game being in 3D, the depth kind of throws me off. First of all, everything is similar saturation-wise, making very little atmospheric depth. If you look at something close-up, it tends to have richer colours than something that has layers of atmosphere before it. I know they want link to pop on-screen, but the fact that they made those bushes stick out so much makes it seem like they could be above the trees, like in this shot for example: http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/image111.jpg?w=650
I know this is nitpicking and gleaned all from a short trailer. I'm still gonna buy it and love the shit out of it, but I had to add the two things that stuck out to me.
This... same issue I have with the NSMB games, regardless of the quality of the level design.
That said, I'm too big a Zelda fan to skip this.
Man, I've really missed out on what the Zelda Fangame scene has been producing recently, give me some links please.
I think ALttP 2 looks fine. It is still pretty early for some big critique of its aesthetics. In any case, I think it looks much better in the 3DS video. The 3D effect adds quite a bit.
The analysis also is being very selective in what screenshots and areas it is pulling from the original ALttP. Why not directly compare these screenshots to the original Tower of Hera? ALttP 2 seems to be trying to emulate the art-style of the original faithfully, and I think it is doing a good job.
The analysis also is being very selective in what screenshots and areas it is pulling from the original ALttP. Why not directly compare these screenshots to the original Tower of Hera? ALttP 2 seems to be trying to emulate the art-style of the original faithfully, and I think it is doing a good job.
I'm almost certain that Nintendo said that they were mixing the handheld and console teams in an effort to bring new ideas so there wouldn't really be a B-Tier anymore.
KojiKnight
Member
Despite not answering my question, I will answer your very LOADED question...
Since I don't think the game looks like a fan game, I'm going to assume *please correct me if I'm wrong* what you really mean is "should we settle for an art direction we don't think matches a legendary game like LttP".
To answer your question, on some level you're going to HAVE to settle because the game is on inferior hardware. You aren't going to get top of the line graphics for the game because it's not a main line title, it's a portable one. It's got a smaller budget, and it's on relatively weak hardware. While you can remedy a lot of it by huge budgets, why would you need it for a game like this? What do you get from it? What would top of the line visuals bring to the game aside from make it look EVEN LESS like LttP?
You mean like every single indie that's been posted in this thread?
Why not both? But yeah, I would. This game looks like really cheesy CGI. A smooth turd is still a turd.
Leaf Green/Fire Red ran at 60 FPS and it was one of the best looking game I've played.
I miss Nintendo's 2D days.
I would like to play the games that you're playing.
Game looks fine to me, for the little we saw.
Speaking of LTTP, many tiles in that game were limited to only 8 colors instead of normal 16 as a compression trick.
Speaking of LTTP, many tiles in that game were limited to only 8 colors instead of normal 16 as a compression trick.
Always an apt image in Zelda thread.
GuitarAtomik
Member
I think the OP nails my problem with most of the recent Nintendo art direction (specifically Mario games). They're just too sterile. There's no life and it makes me bored looking at it.
THEAnderson21
Member
Couldn't care less about how "weathered" the game looks. I'm way more excited about a handheld Zelda that you don't have to use a stylus to play, and one that appears to get back to the basics of Zelda, (i.e. a quest in Hyrule, proper.)
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
I could see this making a lot of sense. It would be a really interesting use of the 3D mechanic as well.
KojiKnight
Member
While you can improve some aspects of the artstyle (I would be down for dark outlines myself), you can't tax the game with tons more details, etc. That isn't free.
The game currently runs at 60FPS (at least with 3d off, I haven't heard if it drops with 3D on, but I'd assume it's solid regardless). Dropping the game to 30FPS will have a HUGE effect on GAMEPLAY that a few additional visual flourishes you'll likely miss won't make up for.
Though that's my personal opinion.
Flame Lord
Member
I don't think a game has to have "top-of-the-line" graphics just to not look bland. There are plenty of old games that of course aren't top of the line but still don't look bland as fuck.
KojiKnight
Member
I was being hyperbolic to justify my point. I'm not saying the artstyle can't be tweaked or that the current one is perfect, but it's hardly as game breaking as people make it sound and there are limits to what can be pushed on the hardware at the budget this game is likely getting (when was the last time we got a Zelda title the same year that it was announced? This game is being pushed through FAST).
Version 3.0
Member
What about when Nintendo allowed us the option to remove the giant screen height Wii Condom from the HUD in Skyward Sword? That was nice. Of course, it took a bunch of hackers to fix the rest of the annoying shit, but it was something.
Catchpenny
Member
Agreed, and I'll add that I am enjoying the emphasis on the vertical climbing, and the superior sense of scale the 3D graphics offer. Really like the way the game looks. I think the color palette could be a little better, but that's nitpicking. The criticism here is without merit in my eyes.
Catchpenny
Member
You are aware that this is a game being created on a platform less powerful than an iOS device, right?
Please, no, no more of this for now.
You have WW HD coming this year, I want another game in alttp's art style, we haven't had one of those in a much longer time than the last WW art style game.
And besides, WW link is probably one of the worst link designs, I'm really sick of it atm.
EDIT:
I know the game is still in production. That is why I am critiquing what we saw now, in the hopes it is improved.
Some of you have brought up the original dungeon that the one we saw is based on:
And you guys are totally right, this dungeon is very clean and the tiles are very repetitive. And really, so was the overworld of the original ALTTP.
But we aren't living with the same limitations of the SNES days. We have seen the series evolve and we know what the 3DS is capable of.
Rather than simply recreating the 2D assets as 3D, shouldn't we expect more? Wouldn't that make this game even more attractive to you, as a gamer?
When you add in the 3D perspective of walking on those walls, the repeated brick texture is made all the more obvious.
And as someone who has a little experience with 3D modeling and texturing, I can tell you that the 3DS could handle a bit more detail to the overworld.
I don't mind that it is a 3D engine. I like the look of Link, and the animations look great. I just think the world needs more detail.
Nintendo is normally really good at balancing art and game play, but in this case I feel the art is rushed.
More detail is fine, but they are specifically making this game to emulate the artstyle of ALttP, and this dungeon is specifically emulating a specific dungeon. Even then, the walls and floors of the dungeon are still more detailed and worn than the analogous ALttP dungeon. Judging from that, wouldn't you expect more detailed ALttP environments to appropriately be even more detailed in the new game? I guess you could argue that the dungeon they chose wasn't exactly a feast for the eyes, but I think it's quite a leap to jump to the conclusion that the rest of the game will share the same style of the only dungeon we've seen.
The only detail I thought was clearly lacking in the new game is the blending of the cliffs with the grass. They need to give the cliffs harder edges.
TheRedSnifit
Member
OP: "LttP2 should look to the original for art direction!"
GAF: "But the same dungeon in the original is even more sterile than the one you're complaining about!"
OP: "W-well, LttP2 should look completely different from the original. This is 2013, dammit!"
"Claymation" isn't the word I'd use to describe those. "Semi-realistic pre-rendered pixel mess" is more accurate.
GAF: "But the same dungeon in the original is even more sterile than the one you're complaining about!"
OP: "W-well, LttP2 should look completely different from the original. This is 2013, dammit!"
"Claymation" isn't the word I'd use to describe those. "Semi-realistic pre-rendered pixel mess" is more accurate.
Oppo
Member
painfully.
I'm sorry but these are silly excuses.
We are talking about a multinational corporation here, I don't see why we shouldn't expect something that looks much better than this:
Btw, the hardware is fine.
If the 3DS can handle a game like RE: Revelations, then, it sure as hell can handle a much more impressive top-down game than the one we're getting.
Catchpenny
Member
That's probably their job, man. Raising the undead for janitorial purposes makes a lot of sense, incredibly cheap labor hours. The only reason they chase after Link is because he's tracking mud into the dungeon.
Catchpenny
Member
I'm sorry but these are silly excuses.
We are talking about a multinational corporation here, I don't see why we shouldn't expect something that looks much better than this:
Btw, the hardware is fine.
If the 3DS can handle a game like RE: Revelations, then, it sure as hell can handle a much more impressive top-down game than the one we're getting.
The game has a very nice look, and I do not want to play a Zelda with 30 second load times.
sorijealut
Member
I somewhat agree with OP.
Right now I see fast pacing and simplicity, that focus is brilliant.
I just feel that it needs a unifying theme or mood. The murals especially are too different from other objects.
Minish Cap had so much charm...!
Right now I see fast pacing and simplicity, that focus is brilliant.
I just feel that it needs a unifying theme or mood. The murals especially are too different from other objects.
Minish Cap had so much charm...!
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I'm so sick of that damned 4chan Miyamoto image. Once, just once, Zelda fans generally overreacted too early about the art style switch and eventually changed their opinion about Wind Waker's art style, and apparently people will never stop insulting the fanbase because of that. I believe the popular opinion about Twilight Princess's art has always been that it's ok, but bland compared to Wind Waker, and the popular opinion about Skyward Sword's artstyle has always been very positive.
Zelda might be divided about what they expect from a Zelda game, but that doesn't mean that each individual Zelda fan doesn't know what he wants. You can't just take a deferent opinions from different people from the fanbase and act like it's the entire fanbase that's flipping back and forth on it.
As for the topic itself I think it's spot on. The tile set's lack of detail and character are clearly the biggest reason the art style looks rather bland. I believe if they fixed that and made link's hair look less plasticy, it would all look a lot better.
Zelda might be divided about what they expect from a Zelda game, but that doesn't mean that each individual Zelda fan doesn't know what he wants. You can't just take a deferent opinions from different people from the fanbase and act like it's the entire fanbase that's flipping back and forth on it.
As for the topic itself I think it's spot on. The tile set's lack of detail and character are clearly the biggest reason the art style looks rather bland. I believe if they fixed that and made link's hair look less plasticy, it would all look a lot better.
In my case, it just needs a few details that won't make the fps take a huge hit like a bit of moss on the cliffs for example.
With the dungeons, if they're making this game with a design philosophy of being faithful to the original then I think what we've seen is pretty satisfying.
Being on a weaker platform doesn't excuse it from looking like a cheap, shitty knockoff.
There's even a Zelda game on the 3DS that managed to not look like a cheap, shitty knockoff.
You're comparing a single dungeon and a small portion of the overworld with cherry-picked examples from other games. If you actually compare the same/similar locations, you'll realise that they look similar. The original is a bit more darker but maybe there's a reason for that, it doesn't make it bad. Though yes, the 3DS version does look a bit blurry but it's not as bad on a 3DS screen.
Randomizer
Member
Pfft this fan concept actually looks better than this. Although I don't really mind the new look it's serviceable and I'm sure it will look better closer to release.
TheRedSnifit
Member
You're missing the point. Zelda fans always - always - bitch and moan about the most recent game in the series. They did it with Wind Waker, they did it with Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, and now they're complaining about the visuals in a 30-second trailor for the next one. The fact that they change their minds two installments later doesn't help.
I definitely wouldn't, because I don't think the game is bland in the first place. After watching the gameplay demos I'm not worried about the art. The way the art, animation, and sound effects work together is like harmony. Stuff like those mockingly laughing faces on the jump pads, the clouds under you when you're on those outside platforms. And even if you're unhappy with the way it looked, understand that each dungeon and area will probably have a distinct look, I imagine that details like moss or cobwebs will show up somewhere in the game. I think it's fine to criticize the game and voice your concerns at this early stage, as long as you're not totally dismissing it and willing to reasses your opinion as we get to see more and more of the game.
I honestly love the detail in those screens, the knobby look of the trees, the dusty cobweb feel of the bookcase. I dig the way everything has a "texture" to it, it just had a ton of character and didn't feel flat. At the time I was definitely blown away by the uniqueness of it. But if you just see a "mess" that's understandable because it is definitely crammed full of stuff in every scene.
"Claymation" isn't the word I'd use to describe those. "Semi-realistic pre-rendered pixel mess" is more accurate.
That looks far worse than what we have here, imo.
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