Support NeoGAF

[GribbleGrunger]

How did I know that this thread would be really popular?

It's not about next gen graphics, it's about the framerate! And of course, as anyone will tell you, games NEVER get better over the lifetime of a console. So ... let's make ourselves feel better by discussing framerates, ignoring next gen graphics and pretending this is representative of the WHOLE PS4 generation. Time has teeth, so you might not want to put your ass on display for too long.

 

[R3TRO]

It really is a joke that were are even debating this. Esp after all the hoopla about the '8GBs of GDDR5!!1!!!'

Interesting to hear after all the talk about PS4 being far more powerful than XBO that PS4 now has two games that are 1080p/30fps (Killzone & Driveclub), while XBO has Forza 5 at 1080p/60fps,

Sony should have just put 4GB's of RAM in PS4 and used the extra build money to boost the CPU/GPU clock speeds so that most games could be 1080p/60fps.

So annoying that after 8 years of 720p/30fps we are only going to 1080p/30fps, I think I may just upgrade my PC unless we see some truly awesome first party games at Gamescom.

Shit...

 

[Victrix]

60fps or I don't buy

... wait isn't this free with my PS+?

My non threat has no teeth :<

 

[la flama blanca]

holy shit at this thread. how are people so ignorant?

 

[Nethaniah]

Edit:nvm

 

[IN&OUT]

I didn't think it was "just fine", even before we factor in the framerate drops.

30fps is for second tier franchises... and what do you know, I consider Uncharted just that.

That said, if it's solid it is acceptable. But it must be -rock- solid, and it can't be one of the genres I mentioned. When I said 'action' game, I meant more like the DmC mold.

Very bold statement my friend, you neglected a very large portion of great games. 60FPS adds smoothness to the games but that doesn't mean 30FPS can break a game. TLoS, MGS3, Silent Hill (PS1) and RE4 and much much more. all those were defining games that run on 30FPS with no problems.

 

[Sethos]

60fps or I don't buy

... wait isn't this free with my PS+?

My non threat has no teeth :<

Not the entire game is free.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

60fps is imo should be mandatory, especially for a racing game. It just looks and feels better I think. If it is 30fps, then it better look considerably better than Forza or be a better game.

 

[Amir0x]

This is the last leg.

It should indeed be such; but we haven't yet seen the results of that last leg. They haven't shown the public a version of DriveClub that is even a majority percent complete build yet, to my knowledge. The build at E3 that everyone is criticizing is from a version of DriveClub that is only 35% complete. And that remains where everyone has seen most of the content from the game so far.

Very bold statement my friend, you neglected a very large portion of great games. 60FPS adds smoothness to the games but that doesn't mean 30FPS can break a game. TLoS, MGS3, Silent Hill (PS1) and RE4 and much much more. all those were defining games that run on 30FPS with no problems.

I don't think it's bold at all, and both my statements on the subject were qualified to be specifically talking about certain genres. That said, I consider 30fps to be a flaw of any game, and all those you mentioned - and ESPECIALLY Last of Us - suffer dramatically due to the framerate, which isn't even a rock solid 30fps.

Yes, I know there are plenty of people willing to lower their standards to accept this; I'm not. It'll always be a huge strike against any game.

 

[chubigans]

The good news is that Evolution has confirmed a new build at Gamescom. So we won't have to wait long to see how the game's progressing.

 

[SuperSonic1305]

It really is a joke that were are even debating this. Esp after all the hoopla about the '8GBs of GDDR5!!1!!!'

Interesting to hear after all the talk about PS4 being far more powerful than XBO that PS4 now has two games that are 1080p/30fps (Killzone & Driveclub), while XBO has Forza 5 at 1080p/60fps,

Sony should have just put 4GB's of RAM in PS4 and used the extra build money to boost the CPU/GPU clock speeds so that most games could be 1080p/60fps.

So annoying that after 8 years of 720p/30fps we are only going to 1080p/30fps, I think I may just upgrade my PC unless we see some truly awesome first party games at Gamescom.

You don't get it do you? More powerful hardware would just make devs push the graphics farther. This issue of games being 30fps will never go away.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

holy shit at this thread. how are people so ignorant?

Well, the 60fps or no buy is quite extreme I must admit, but I can understand the disappointment considering how powerful the PS4 is supposed to be. People comparing this game to Forza performance-wise is inevitable I think.

 

[plagiarize]

if they didn't think there was a good chance of hitting 60 fps they wouldn't be talking about it at all. they just haven't got there yet so aren't making any promises.

they aren't debating 60. they're aiming for and they might fall short. they're a launch game, it can happen.

but yeah, if there wasn't a good chance they wouldn't even mention it.

 

[ionicbluebird]

I don't mind the 30fps personally.

 

[valkillmore]

60fps or I don't buy

... wait isn't this free with my PS+?

My non threat has no teeth :<

PS+ Edition = 30FPS
Retail & Digital Edition = 60FPS

 

[Amir0x]

Oh mannnnnn I wish I was as ignorant about development and hardware as some of you so posts like these wouldn't melt my brain.

The funniest thing about Apophis2036 comment is that almost every developer on Earth didn't know PS4 was getting 8GB GDDR5 until February 21; most thought it was 4GB. So the vast majority of games currently in development for probably the first year of PS4's life won't even be able to meaningfully change to take advantage of it without delays.

Even if he was right that 8GB of GDDR5 meant "Automatic 60fps", it wouldn't matter because it's not in play for most of the early games we're seeing lol

 

[Quixz]

The problem here is Forza 5 runs at 60FPS and looks great regardless of any "cheating" tactics, such as baked lighting!

They'll have to make some tough decisions!

 

[la flama blanca]

Well, the 60fps or no buy is quite extreme I must admit, but I can understand the disappointment considering how powerful the PS4 is supposed to be. People comparing this game to Forza performance-wise is inevitable I think.

People are forcibly trying to ignore that fact that the lack of 60fps or the technical decisions made in the game are not on the PS4, but the developer. This is straight up the Twilight Zone where people are forgetting that the XBOX 360 hasn't touched a single PS3 exclusive in the graphics department(God of War being the best imo) and due to the PS4 being MUCH easier to develop on it's only inevitable that PS4 titles are going to look way better than XBONE titles. I figure we just let them have their cake for now as it's going to just be a slaughter down the line.

 

[strangecloud]

Either way im excited to see how this game will turn out. If they are squeezing all of juice out of the PS4 and having glorious visuals at 30FPS, you can still color me interested. However, I am with the majority dat feel of 60FPS is much better when it is fully realized.

 

[IN&OUT]

It really is a joke that were are even debating this. Esp after all the hoopla about the '8GBs of GDDR5!!1!!!'

Interesting to hear after all the talk about PS4 being far more powerful than XBO that PS4 now has two games that are 1080p/30fps (Killzone & Driveclub), while XBO has Forza 5 at 1080p/60fps,

Sony should have just put 4GB's of RAM in PS4 and used the extra build money to boost the CPU/GPU clock speeds so that most games could be 1080p/60fps.

So annoying that after 8 years of 720p/30fps we are only going to 1080p/30fps, I think I may just upgrade my PC unless we see some truly awesome first party games at Gamescom.

Metal Gear Solid 2 (PS2) was 60 FPS, does that mean PS2 > PS4 ?

KZ and Driveclub are launch games, launch games are not optimized to get the full out of the console. in case of forza, turn 10 set the goal to achieve 60FPS for Forza 5 no matter what. its an easy achievement considering that GT5 (PS3) are running @ 60FPS.

 

[CLEEK]

I'd hoped 60fps would be mandatory for racing games this gen. It makes such a difference. I'd much rather have the responsiveness of 60fps than extra pretty backgrounds. Racing games live and die by their handling, more than how they look.

30fps can be fine for racers, as long as you don't it in isolation and don't go near any 60fps racers. I found PGR3 unplayable due to its frame rate, as I bought RR6 along side it. I had to wait until I rinsed RR6 until I went back to playing PGR3. My eyes got accustomed to the lower frame rate, and I could enjoy the game for what it was.

Conversely, Ridge Racer on Vita is perfectly OK at 30fps, as I don't have any 60fps Vita racing games to compare it with.

 

[Chamber]

It really is a joke that were are even debating this. Esp after all the hoopla about the '8GBs of GDDR5!!1!!!'

Interesting to hear after all the talk about PS4 being far more powerful than XBO that PS4 now has two games that are 1080p/30fps (Killzone & Driveclub), while XBO has Forza 5 at 1080p/60fps,

Sony should have just put 4GB's of RAM in PS4 and used the extra build money to boost the CPU/GPU clock speeds so that most games could be 1080p/60fps.

So annoying that after 8 years of 720p/30fps we are only going to 1080p/30fps, I think I may just upgrade my PC unless we see some truly awesome first party games at Gamescom.

Yeah, they should have boosted the CPU/GPU to match Xbox One.

My head hurts.

 

[Painraze]

If it's 30 fps, try it on PS+, if you don't like it, ignore it.

seems pretty simple.

 

[Painraze]

Interesting to hear after all the talk about PS4 being far more powerful than XBO that PS4 now has two games that are 1080p/30fps (Killzone & Driveclub), while XBO has Forza 5 at 1080p/60fps,

Embarrassing post.

 

[IN&OUT]

It should indeed be such; but we haven't yet seen the results of that last leg. They haven't shown the public a version of DriveClub that is even a majority percent complete build yet, to my knowledge. The build at E3 that everyone is criticizing is from a version of DriveClub that is only 35% complete. And that remains where everyone has seen most of the content from the game so far.



I don't think it's bold at all, and both my statements on the subject were qualified to be specifically talking about certain genres. That said, I consider 30fps to be a flaw of any game, and all those you mentioned - and ESPECIALLY Last of Us - suffer dramatically due to the framerate, which isn't even a rock solid 30fps.

Yes, I know there are plenty of people willing to lower their standards to accept this; I'm not. It'll always be a huge strike against any game.

I see that you have set a standard for yourself, I understand your point and I totally respect your opinion.

I myself can live with 30FPS as long as its solid. Screen tearing that I hate most personally.

 

[Kaako]

holy shit at this thread. how are people so ignorant?

Here at Neogaf, we pride ourselves with having the full spectrum of human intellects.
On to the matter at hand, it won't be a complete deal breaker for me if it's 30fps however, 60fps will always remain KING when it comes to racing games, fighting games, and sports games.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

It really is a joke that were are even debating this. Esp after all the hoopla about the '8GBs of GDDR5!!1!!!'

Interesting to hear after all the talk about PS4 being far more powerful than XBO that PS4 now has two games that are 1080p/30fps (Killzone & Driveclub), while XBO has Forza 5 at 1080p/60fps,

Sony should have just put 4GB's of RAM in PS4 and used the extra build money to boost the CPU/GPU clock speeds so that most games could be 1080p/60fps.

So annoying that after 8 years of 720p/30fps we are only going to 1080p/30fps, I think I may just upgrade my PC unless we see some truly awesome first party games at Gamescom.

So we are comparing a fighting game and a racing sim, to another racing sim and a open world shooter? What sense does that make?

Killzone and Infamous takes so much more resources than KI does just for particle affects. Let's be serious. And look at what Forza had to sacrifice just to be 60FPS..Come on now

 

[Colonel Nasty]

People are forcibly trying to ignore that fact that the lack of 60fps or the technical decisions made in the game are not on the PS4, but the developer. This is straight up the Twilight Zone where people are forgetting that the XBOX 360 hasn't touched a single PS3 exclusive in the graphics department(God of War being the best imo) and due to the PS4 being MUCH easier to develop on it's only inevitable that PS4 titles are going to look way better than XBONE titles. I figure wejust let them have their cake for now as it's going to just be a slaughter down the line.

Holy moly someone at Sony get this man a job.

 

[Kinyou]

PS+ Edition = 30FPS
Retail & Digital Edition = 60FPS

60fps unlock dlc. lol, don't give EA any ideas

 

[orioto]

So we are comparing a fighting game and a racing sim, to another racing sim and a open world shooter? What sense does that make?

Killzone and Infamous takes so much more resources than KI does just for particle affects. Let's be serious. And look at what Forza had to sacrifice just to be 60FPS..Come on now

This is all true and the amount of snobish and ignorant "30fps isn't next gen" is ridiculous in that thread.

That
Said

Sony fucked up. This is the EXACT same kind of shit and devs doing whatever they want and lacking efficiency that killed the PS3 tech advantage to begin with, in the beginning.

Good luck to go in every store in the world and tell mainstream uninformed kids that Forza 5 and its 60fps prebaked eye candy is less advanced than your subtly realistic 30 fps drive club with boring backgrounds. You'll ask Cerny to go axplani that 5000 physic parts is a lot to kids to, cause they won't guess it by themselves and i can tell you they will find Ryse more impressive...

 

[Apophis2036]

Again, don't use frames per second as a benchmark, they don't mean anything. It's about what your game has to process. Fighting games typically have better framerates than shooters, they don't have to process anywhere near as much. Shooters with better framerates generally have much less going on. Compare the effects in Killzone 3 to COD Blops 2. It's a joke. My mentioning of "sterile" worlds comes to mind. They're not rendering as much, thus no "wasted" horsepower.

If all you care about is framerates, look at the Wii-U, how many 60 FPS games does it have?

I agree and I know how hardware effects frame rates but my point is that after all the hoopla about how powerful PS4 is and it can't even run launch games at 60fps.

Killzone looks very nice but when DICE have BF4 64 player MP running at 1080p/60fps it makes you wonder if some of Sony's first parties are struggling with the new x86 architecture after being used to Cell for the past 8 years. I hope that is the case and it's not that the PS4 is bottle necked by a weak CPU.

I know the difference is massive on PC between 720 and 1080p but if I was MS esp and maybe even Sony I would just run every single game at 720p native and upscale it to 1080p, 99% of consumers would not notice, nor care and it would let them use the extra CPU / GPU grunt for graphical effects and frame rate.

I already own WiiU and I have a pre order in for PS4 but hearing about these launch games struggling to hit 60fps (Killzone struggling to hit 30fps) makes me worry tbh and wonder if I should just buy a GTX 680 for my PC instead (it already has an i5 CPU and 8GB's of RAM).

 

[ShamePain]

And look at what Forza had to sacrifice just to be 60FPS..Come on now

T10 has already stated that TOD didn't make it because of time constraints. The tech is already in the engine, as shown in Forza Horizon. On the other hand, if we go by developers' claims DC has 250k polygons per car while FM5 has 1kk. And don't forget that Forza has hundreds of cars and DC only has 50. The difference in scope is enormous.

 

[i-Lo]

It really is a joke that were are even debating this. Esp after all the hoopla about the '8GBs of GDDR5!!1!!!'

Interesting to hear after all the talk about PS4 being far more powerful than XBO that PS4 now has two games that are 1080p/30fps (Killzone & Driveclub), while XBO has Forza 5 at 1080p/60fps,

Sony should have just put 4GB's of RAM in PS4 and used the extra build money to boost the CPU/GPU clock speeds so that most games could be 1080p/60fps.

So annoying that after 8 years of 720p/30fps we are only going to 1080p/30fps, I think I may just upgrade my PC unless we see some truly awesome first party games at Gamescom.

I think it has been said many times but it's worth repeating: Your post lacks basic understanding of the fact that a target frame rate like 60 or 30 is up to game design and not up to the hardware.

This post shows a lack of basic knowledge and the desire to hold on to a myth that has spread amongst quite a few members here.

 

[Portugeezer]

They focussed on making a good game rather than focussing on a 60fps game.

It's not a simulation, 60fps is not a priority. Just lock it at 30fps. Dynamic lighting, yes please. Day, night, dusk, dawn, etc I'm all over that.

People cry over 60fps; then they'll all be playing 20-30fps GTA5 in 2 months.

 

[CLEEK]

I think it has been said many times but it's worth repeating: Your post lacks basic understanding of the fact that a target frame rate like 60 or 30 is up to game design and not up to the hardware.

Seeing as the lowly PS1 had 60fps racing games, it's incredible that this stupidity still exists. The notion that the PS4 (or any other console) can't technically achieve 60fps is ludicrous.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

This is all true and the amount of snobish and ignorant "30fps isn't next gen" is ridiculous in that thread.

That
Said

Sony fucked up. This is the EXACT same kind of shit and devs doing whatever they want and lacking efficiency that killed the PS3 tech advantage to begin with, in the beginning.

Good luck to go in every store in the world and tell mainstream uninformed kids that Forza 5 and its 60fps prebaked eye candy is less advanced than your subtly realistic 30 fps drive club with boring backgrounds. You'll ask Cerny to go axplani that 5000 physic parts is a lot to kids to, cause they won't guess it by themselves and i can tell you they will find Ryse more impressive...

The thing is, the Xbox is still more complex to develop for than the PS4 so I think it comes down to Developers sacrificing quality for equality or quality with as little output.

When I say "as little output" I'm referring to the fact that we will start seeing games with fewer care taken into the smaller details of games and more emphasis on the bigger flasher things.

Imo, its still just the beginning and the new tech does take a while to adjust to but 60fps in bigger wider games compared to smaller games is a ridiculous. Let's really start making comparisons when there are more to compare

 

[Apophis2036]

I think it has been said many times but it's worth repeating: Your post lacks basic understanding of the fact that a target frame rate like 60 or 30 is up to game design and not up to the hardware.

This post shows a lack of basic knowledge and the desire to hold on to a myth that has spread amongst quite a few members here.

But if the graphical target is too high then they should lower it to achieve 60fps, racing games along with hacknslash, sports and fighting games are the few genres where 60fps should be standard imo, are people really that interested in the scenery when they are whizzing along at 150mph ?.

I fully understand that not every next gen game can be 60fps because of the new engines and graphical effects they are using but I did expect esp a launch racing game to be 60fps.

I guess I'm just disappointed after hearing all the hype around how powerful PS4 is, you would think a console that I have heard people on here say is 10x the power of PS3 could run even an open world racer at 60fps.

The graphics better be jaw dropping .

 

[Violater]

I wonder how successful a personal buying guide for only 60 fps titles would be.
What does the PS4 have along those lines so far?

 

[Viruz]

This is all true and the amount of snobish and ignorant "30fps isn't next gen" is ridiculous in that thread.

That
Said

Sony fucked up. This is the EXACT same kind of shit and devs doing whatever they want and lacking efficiency that killed the PS3 tech advantage to begin with, in the beginning.

Good luck to go in every store in the world and tell mainstream uninformed kids that Forza 5 and its 60fps prebaked eye candy is less advanced than your subtly realistic 30 fps drive club with boring backgrounds. You'll ask Cerny to go axplani that 5000 physic parts is a lot to kids to, cause they won't guess it by themselves and i can tell you they will find Ryse more impressive...

I'm just saying that with the hardware devs are afforded, they better at least aim for a minimum of 60fps/1080p. I'm tired of sub 30fps/720p.
I want more.

 

[la flama blanca]

Holy moly someone at Sony get this man a job.

Ironically, my job somewhat depends on how well the XBOX ONE does.

 

[Kenshin001]

That's a bs excuse.
30 fps is the past.

FM5 runs at 60 fps.

FM5 doesn't have weather or night racing. I don't think it even has dynamic lighting. What is their excuse? Ideally a game would have all of that and 60fps.

 

[RoKKeR]

T10 has already stated that TOD didn't make it because of time constraints. The tech is already in the engine, as shown in Forza Horizon. On the other hand, if we go by developers' claims DC has 250k polygons per car while FM5 has 1kk. And don't forget that Forza has hundreds of cars and DC only has 50. The difference in scope is enormous.

Yep, I'd take Forza any day of the week.

Spoiler

Too bad it's $500 and Microsoft too much.

 

[i-Lo]

But if the graphical target is too high then they should lower it to achieve 60fps, racing games along with hacknslash, sports and fighting games are the few genres where 60fps should be standard imo, are people really that interested in the scenery when they are whizzing along at 150mph ?.

I fully understand that not every next gen game can be 60fps because of the new engines and graphical effects they are using but I did expect esp a launch racing game to be 60fps.

I guess I'm just disappointed after hearing all the hype around how powerful PS4 is, you would think a console that I have heard people on here say is 10x the power of PS3 could run even an open world racer at 60fps.

The graphics better be jaw dropping .

It's their vision to create a racer with great environments and it's understandable that not all agree. In the end it is their execution of a vision; one that opts for 30fps for higher fidelity (which is now in question since they may move to 60fps).

To me, 30 or 60 fps does not matter as long as it is stable. I have played racing games running on both frame rates and after a while, I was immersed into them the same. But I agree with you on the premise that the trade-offs made should yield a prettier result otherwise, it will be kind of in vain.

 

[USC-fan]

I would take a better looking 30 fps locked over worse looking 60 fps not locked.

The slowdown is what really just cant happen. As proven by this gen again, gamers really dont care that much about 30 fps.

With the display planes on the xbone i think a lot of these "1080p @ 60 fps" are not running the games at 1080p. They can fake it with display planes. The system was design to do this....

 

[Apophis2036]

Does any Driveclub direct feed 1080p gameplay exist ?, all I can find on YT is terrible quality off screen footage, cheers.

 

[OriginalNameGuy]

Like fighters, racing is a genre where 60fps is an absolute must. I would be disappointed if they can't reach that target because its the difference between me buying it or not.

 

[Neuromancer]

I care more about pretty environments. A solid 30 is good enough for me.

 

[RoKKeR]

Does any Driveclub direct feed 1080p gameplay exist ?, all I can find on YT is terrible quality off screen footage, cheers.

No.

 

[Apophis2036]

It's their vision to create a racer with great environments and it's understandable that not all agree. In the end it is their execution of a vision; one that opts for 30fps for higher fidelity (which is now in question since they may move to 60fps).

To me, 30 or 60 fps does not matter as long as it is stable. I have played racing games running on both frame rates and after a while, I was immersed into them the same. But I agree with you on the premise that the trade-offs made should yield a prettier result otherwise, it will be kind of in vain.

Thanks for giving me a decent reply and not just insulting me like others...

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

It really is a joke that were are even debating this. Esp after all the hoopla about the '8GBs of GDDR5!!1!!!'

Interesting to hear after all the talk about PS4 being far more powerful than XBO that PS4 now has two games that are 1080p/30fps (Killzone & Driveclub), while XBO has Forza 5 at 1080p/60fps,

Sony should have just put 4GB's of RAM in PS4 and used the extra build money to boost the CPU/GPU clock speeds so that most games could be 1080p/60fps.

So annoying that after 8 years of 720p/30fps we are only going to 1080p/30fps, I think I may just upgrade my PC unless we see some truly awesome first party games at Gamescom.

I knew this thread wouldn't disappoint.
Incredible how forza 5 runs at 1080/60 and driveclub runs at 1080/30...i mean, i'm glad there isn't any logical thinking that could explain this, like the developers targeting that framerate and compromising it over graphics. It seems pretty clear evolution still doesn't know if they want pretty and "slow" or less pretty and fast.
But yeah, sony should have just used 4gb of ram, further increase their boost against the x1 in gpu power (because they already have a better one as it stands) and have a better cpu (because they're pretty much the same in both), so they could have 60 fps. Solid thinking you have there.