-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Cyberpunk 2020 creator to SJW’s - Who the (bleep) do YOU think you are...
- Thread starter Shmunter
- Start date
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
That's not what I said.
joe_zazen
Member
(Continuing from an american perspective...)
Good question. I am no expert, but on imo:
On screen, it helps with global sales. Behind the scenes, it stops potential internet outrage, also increasing sales.
On a societal level, it helps with integration of communities. If you live and work with different types of people, chances are good you just start seeing them as people, not hyphenated people.
I am not arguing that there needs to be legislation to force %tages in entertainment. Just that programs that give say scholarships or internships etc to under represented groups are a net positive, and having an integrated workforce makes things better in terms of reducing actual racism and hate on all sides.
Also, i include ‘white trash’ (poor rural under educated folk without hope) in this discussion of the marginalised, as it seems like they are the only ones without a voice. Democrats have abandoned them and the one Republican pushing policies to help those communities is cast as literally hitler. No one in entertainment gives two fucks about them. Yet, having something that brings them into mainstream culture would be a good thing, just as it is a good thing for other groups. It is one of the ironies of inclusiveness movement that they fail to see marginalised mostly white communities because they are mostly white. I believe that they have the highest suicide rates currently (rural, poor, white), so yeah....
Ballthyrm
Member
I think we have a big chicken and egg problem.
Minorities aren't making games about their communities because they aren't represented enough in current video games, so they never want to make video games in the first place.
I think most devs are giving a good effort on that issue but that's isn't enough apparently for internet.
Yes, the mostly white rich and educated games devs aren't the best people to understand the plight of minorities, who knew.
At one point, minorities will have to make the game themselves if they want to have their stories told.
Enygger_Tzu
Banned
I think the examples of Mass Effect: Andromeda and BFV prove otherwise.
joe_zazen
Member
hypocrisy, contradiction, and irrationality are fundamental parts of humanity. If you don't recognise this, you will fail to understand how the world works and even who you are.
I brought up LA policing because it is an incredibly instructive lesson in recent history. Having black and Latino cops in black and Latino areas made a huge IRL difference. This cannot be argued if you look at the post-Gates era of LA policing. The mere fact that people were hired based on race changed things for the better. Now whether that fits into some philosophical or ideological construct, or whether it is rational and free from hypocrisy, I just don't really care because it made the world better.
But, yeah , i am not arguing this is the case for entertainment because i just don't know about that. Otoh, i dont think having women and minorities making and staring in, for example, MCU movies makes for worse MCU movies.
Finally, the real Orwellian threat to the world comes from the global elites who literally exist in a separate world from the rest of us, not from diversity initiatives. They use identity politics as a mere political distraction, just look at the last us presidential election. They control Washington, the cia, the us military; and because of that, 70% of the world and its media. And they extend their reach every day via technology. Imo, the battle is lost, at least in the West. We even have nu-speak and self censorship.
It will be super interesting, if i live long enough, to see whether they allow life extension tech to be accessed by the unwashed. And if they dont, how they will rationalise that
Last edited:
lifa-cobex
Member
Highlighted to what I think is the key issue with attempting to put something into a conversation.
People can give their opinion but for some reason believe that it should add weight to the dialog. I'm all for someone spit balling something out their into the dialog but i'm stunned when they believe that it should hold some sort of respect without any experience in the matter.
It's telling of the times by people who believe that they have read something (mostly online) that they themselves have a take with merit.
It reminds me of a time when I would sit in the pub with my friends and one would always have a take on something. If you have a boat then he has a bigger boat and has been doing it for longer than you.
You can either let him ramble on until subject changes or shoot him down by calling BS.
These days it's people who congregate online who have all read the same BS. They start re-enforcing each other almost like a defense. Some subjects seem to have evolved to something akin of a religion.
joe_zazen
Member
No argument. You know how hard it is to find good black podcastsers? And the barrier to entry couldnt be any lower there.
The games you need to look at are fortnite and minecraft. At the very lleast, you’ll agree you cant ignore Asians in your games if you want to sell global, right?
GreyHorace
Member
Thank you for the reply. Again, I have no data at hand, but if what you say is true and that including minorities do help increase sales and integration, then yes it can only be positive.
But, from what I've seen in some areas of entertainment, it doesn't always work that way. Take comics for example. I mentioned before in another thread how Marvel Comics is suffering because they keep pushing these POC characters in the forefront of their catalogue, yet no one seems to want to buy their books. Could it be because comic fans are not interested in these 'diversity' heroes and see them mostly as a marketing gimmick?
I know people will argue that the success of the Black Panther movie is proof against that notion. Yet people don't seem to realize that Black Panther himself has never had a regular comic title like Spider-Man or the X-Men until recently. He's never been a flagship character for Marvel and the sales of his title have never been big, even during his best years (the Marvel Knights run by Christopher Priest). Though on the plus side Black Panther's existence helps with the reducing racial tensions part, as both white and black comic fans will agree he's a great character.
And I appreciate your gesture that the poor rural white community should get reprensentation too. It galls me that for all their talk of 'inclusiveness', SJW's won't include this group into the mix of their protected classes. But hey, white people. They should all be culled according to them.
Dirk Benedict
Gold Member
ThatStupidLion
Member
this is one of my biggest issues with the current state of culture - mobs are forcing others to change their art/ideas/etc, and not just letting it live or die on its own.
HeresJohnny
Member
I was gonna say he bitchslapped them. But man, that's a dick slapping if I've ever seen one. Right in the chops.
Mankind has learned how to get rid of those, to a rescannable extent, when striving for the ultimate goal, truth. Recognizing those are indeed human facets in no way enslaves us to them. We have the ability to spot them and correct our ways.
Over the centuries, a methodology and philosophical framework have been developed to overcome most of these limitations. The approach has been very successful.
So the solution is not to revert back to the days of personal biases, but in fact to acknowledge them and keep on transcending them. This, among other things, requires us to focus solely on the argument, not on the one making it.
It is precisely because these shortcomings permeate our experiences and have been acknowledged, that epistemology came about and eventually matured.
There are obvious reasons why that's a successful experience and in no way do they undermine anything that's been said.
That's actually one of the very rare instances where hiring people of a certain ethnic background might make sense. It is a unique situation,
This, of course, has no parallel whatsoever with game development.
And truth doesn't care about your impressions either.
Truth is, whether I like it or not, whether you like it or not, whether they like it or not. All we can do is accept truth for what it is, no matter how unsavoury it might be.
Again, there are objective reasons that would advise hiring cops of certain demographics. Those are off-topic. Law enforcement is a unique situation. The state holds a monopoly on the use of force. There's no other industry that parallels that. Consulting with self-appointed, non-elected so-called representatives of minorities, consulting with sensitivity experts, this is a different matter altogether.
For starters, I dispute the very concept of minority representatives.
Who said it did?
The term Orwellian usually applies to initiatives that curtail individual freedoms in the name of a grand goal. Attempts to limit freedom of speech, of assembly, of conduct, of language, for example, alledgedly so that no one on planet Earth will ever be offended by anything, de-platforming, censorship, etc. all fit the bill.
What you describe does not, irrespective of whether it is condemnable or not. The matter is off-topic anyway.
Diversity initiatives need to be funded. How are they funded? why, through taxes, of course. More initiatives, more taxes, or more cuts in other areas. It's very easy to come up with solutions that involve taking more money from other people.
No comment.
Allow?
Assuming free markets still exist by then, extension tech will be a product just like any other and the law of supply and demand will still apply. People are not owed anything just because they are who they are. Companies sell products. They don't give them away for free. You'll also notice that it's been big tech companies which have democratized technology, not the state. These companies crave big money and the way to get it is to sell at affordable prices, so millions end up buying their products.
Seems to be working.
Last edited by a moderator:
GaviotaGrande
Banned
We're winning boys and girls!
H
hariseldon
Unconfirmed Member
I already pre-ordered, I never pre-order but CDPR earned that. Everything they've done has made me feel confident that was the right choice and these are people I want to support. And this guy, damn it he's made me even more sure.
AnotherOne
Member
Seems like every day they have to explain themselves.. like get a fucking life let them finish the game.
GreenAlien
Member
I don't think sexualization of "not children" is horrible and a problem. Imo supporting that SJW narrative is already too close to agreeing with them.
Last edited:
FranXico
Member
My friend, I am buying EVERY version there is.
Airbus Jr
Banned
Never understand why these sjw and our friend at resetera hated cdprojectred so much
they re so talented
Hating them just because of the lack of diveristy is very absurd
Just about 40 minutes gameplay i can see lots of gender/ races seems to be represented there already
what exactly does these angry mob wanted?
Our society is so fucked up if we need to constantly complain about stuff like this in a fictional videogame world
they re so talented
Hating them just because of the lack of diveristy is very absurd
Just about 40 minutes gameplay i can see lots of gender/ races seems to be represented there already
what exactly does these angry mob wanted?
Our society is so fucked up if we need to constantly complain about stuff like this in a fictional videogame world
Last edited:
01011001
Banned
he pulled out his shlong and slapped them left and right... as one should do with these idiots
its_justJEFF
Member
Too much ppl looking, waiting, for something to get offended by. IDK what happened to ppl, some ppl. Must be rough to always be looking for the negative in things.
KingdomHeartsFan
Member
Good shit Mike! Reeera is probably reeeeeeing all over this.
Last edited:
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Takes balls to say that in the current climate. I can respect that.
Damn right!
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
Yes. The fire rises!
Angry_Megalodon
Member
It is a clear signal that we live in the days of the wacko when speaking common sense is deemed controversial.
The Bloody-Nine
Member
These scumbags will continue to bleat on and on online about how horrible the game is.....and you just know they've already got their pre-orders in.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
The Bloody-Nine
Member
I done goofed. In my defence, I'm a little drunk.They don't even play games.
Ol'Scratch
Member
I am so turned on right now
RokkanStoned
Member
I feel like there's a nuance here. If it accounts to the experience of being categorized in a group/community, then that is something another person can only experience through description by a person of said group or by speculation based on observation and more generalized experiences or a similar experience.
Then again a given group members doesn't need to experience the same thing and with the subjective perspective it's easy to bend what one think one's observing to the subjective narrative. Then again, that narrative is very much a real thing for said person and their emotional life and mental health. More so when we construct a community/group experience, that's something that's shared as a very real thing in the group. It's not something one should too easily dismiss either. After all, we're not all rational beings, we're fairly emotional and our experiences has a value that make us easily antagonistic if stepped on. The person doing a religious or cultural ritual, the outsider onlooker observing it. One experiences a more mundane set of ritualistic behavior that when broken down ends up being a series of words and movements used together with a prop. To the participant it carries deep subjective meaning, deep with history, culture and the social bonds that binds people in the imagined community/sense of community. A world unavailable to the onlooker appears and though it might be described, that experience is unavailable to the onlooker.
Hmmm, a group is a non-specific entity consisting of individuals who feel that they or by some categorical value belong to. It by itself isn't able to "decide how they feel about" a given thing. There are likely many conflicting opinions and one'll feel it hard to justify . Think about it this way: who have a right to decide how someone feels about the portrayal of a white man? As we know from how the internet and public discourse works, it's everyone. Because we generally can understand what we feel is okay and not, whether we are a part of a group or not. Whether something is right and wrong doesn't necessarily depend on a given group's acceptance of (for the subject's perspective of) injustice upon them.
A member of a group will generally only be able to decide how they themselves feel about it. A group's interest could be communicated in some way, either by weighing all opinions in the given group the same and present them, or by influential members of said group taking control and controlling what the group's opinion is, or there could be a vote with some sort of majority voting system. Then again, intellectually it's hard to see how such a thing would carry any weight in terms of what is true or not.
At best I feel a person or a group can only decide how they as a person or as a group feel about it. But that has nothing to do with how the portrayal might actually be in some hypothetical objective view nor how people feel it should be. There is however also value in understanding that rationality isn't the only way we humans work, as emotional value is something that shouldn't be underestimated. Persons of a given group have perspective as a constructed agent and a sense of community that has value, whether or not it's either rationally sound or if there even existed a hypothetical objective view. The social bonds, the constructed imaginary world people share that are closed off to everyone else, is pretty much a real thing for people. It's how an outsider might view a ritual as something mundane, but the practitioner/participant feels the emotional weight of a history, of a cultural sphere the onlooker won't understand. Even if it's logically mundane from the outside perspective, for a human it carries deep emotional and existential weight.
zeorhymer
Member
The worst is that they are outraged on behalf of <insert whatever group> to make noise and to profit off them.They don't even play games.
CyberPanda
Banned
My underwear got sticky all of a sudden.
CyberPanda
Banned
I hope Anita doesn’t try to seduce this man. Otherwise, we’re all doomed.
autoduelist
Member
And not a sale was lost.
I disagree with this argument, which seems to be enjoying increasing popularity.
The best, most accurate, most reliable picture of what it means to live as a member of a minority is not obtained through one or a few personal testimonies. You don't know how representative, or, conversely, how deviant their lived experiences are in comparison to the group as a statistical entity. Evidently, you can build a sample, but when you're talking about millions of people across all states, the number is not going to remain in the realm of two digits.
Additionally, the reliability of personal testimony is usually shaky, especially in matters of identity, group affiliation and group to group interactions. A number of non-rational filters tend to come into play.
What tends to cut through personal biases and iluminante the lives of communities, minorities is big relevant data. You get a cross section, a vertical slice that is impartial, indeed truly representative and revelatory. That's the way to go about it. Data, facts, evidence.
The winning recipe never changes.
Should we ask Black Lives Matter members about police brutality and leave it at that? They'll be sincere, I bet you.
Should we ask Occupy Wall Street members for a lengthy essay on how capitalism oppresses them and believe every single comma in there? They'll be ardent, feverous, authentic.
This is the kind of argument I was rebelling against. Only black people live the lives black people live, therefore only black people have the ability to talk about it.
No, data is the superior form of testimony.
Beautifully said.
Agreed.
Last edited by a moderator:
autoduelist
Member
No. People are individuals not monolithic entities. There is no 'group decision' on how to react to any given portrayal, every individual within said group may have conflicting opinions.
Your suggestion that they have the only say, and the implied reasoning that they would thus share the same opinion, is actually the one built upon a foundation of sexism, racism, and general identitarianism.
You have no right to stand up for your imagined group membership and speak on behalf of them. You are just you.
Likewise, I am more than capable to come up wit my own evaluation of a portrayal of a member of a group outside my own. That you are so quick to give up your own agency, your own opinion, simply because others with a broken ideology have convinced you that you're not allowed to render an opinion is, quite frankly, sad.
Stand up and be counted. Exist as an individual. Escape from the rampant identitarianism. Speak your mind.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Locked