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[Kabuki Waq]

Well, it's not fundamentally serious I don't think. Kojima is also a fan of melodrama. Hell, Woo is just as melodramatic and awkward but you don't see his movies (at least his HK ones) getting the hate that the MGS games get. I think people go in with the preconceptions that it's cheesy so they shouldn't like it. If I went up to someone about to watch The Killer and said "That movie is so fucking cheesy and melodramatic. Like, gross dude. Gross." rather than "That movie is sooooo awesome dude. It's so cheesy, but in an awesome way." then the person will probably think the movie was stupid.

From all I've seen GAF loves the movie. If you can enjoy the Killer and then complain about the melodrama and cheesiness in MGS then you are a hypocrite and need to do some reevaluating.

I love both.

hard boiled and killer were 90% action. Guess what tho the Melodramatic parts in those were bad and if the movies were released today they would be called out for it.

MGS4 is a recent release and it is a GAME not a MOVIE. Unfortunately pacing of the Game suffers due to the Melodramatic cutscenes. No one is saying the Game is shit. The game just is not as Amazing as it could have been because of the cutscenes. for some reason you are offended by this.

 

[Flynn]

Well, it's not fundamentally serious I don't think. Kojima is also a fan of melodrama. Hell, Woo is just as melodramatic and awkward but you don't see his movies (at least his HK ones) getting the hate that the MGS games get. I think people go in with the preconceptions that it's cheesy so they shouldn't like it. If I went up to someone about to watch The Killer and said "That movie is so fucking cheesy and melodramatic. Like, gross dude. Gross." rather than "That movie is sooooo awesome dude. It's so cheesy, but in an awesome way." then the person will probably think the movie was stupid.

From all I've seen GAF loves the movie. If you can enjoy the Killer and then complain about the melodrama and cheesiness in MGS then you are a hypocrite and need to do some reevaluating.

I love both.

It's not the melodrama that makes MGS games difficult. It's the ten minute explanation scenes. Scenes that would be so boring to watch that they have to cut away to animations, diagrams and schematics to fill the screen. Thing is the stuff they're cutting away to is terribly uninteresting as well. Not as uninteresting as two people walking in slow motion down a church aisle but it's in the same damn ball park.

Honestly, I like the silly melodrama and goofy love on the battelfield stuff. What I can't stand are protracted, needlessly detailed back story. These moments are show stoppers in the worst possible way. But Kojima is so wrapped up in his ideas (kinda like Lucas) that he can't bear to edit.

In fact, I kinda picture Kojima watching that scene in Star Wars where they show the 3D schematic of the death star and debate battle plans. He thinks to himself, "I wish this scene went on for an hour longer, but with less drama."

 

[Kabuki Waq]

NO WAY.

Spoiler

I'm so happy that he lived. Raiden was the one that really deserved to live the most. He's the one that took the most shit. I felt so bad for the poor guy when the whole fiasco with Campbell went down, and felt incredibly good to hear that he would be ok.

.

I haven't gotten to the part in US MGS4 yet, but was Raiden whiny or something? In Japanese he was pretty good, not overly whiny.

yea but thats why the end of act 4 was so effective.


the beggining of act 5 felt like a cop out due to the person being

Spoiler

alive

.
It took away from the ending of act 4 imo.

 

[KTallguy]

I don't think so.
Just my personal opinion.
I'm glad that it happened the way it did, personally.

 

[BobsRevenge]

hard boiled and killer were 90% action. Guess what tho the Melodramatic parts in those were bad and if the movies were released today they would be called out for it.

MGS4 is a recent release and it is a GAME not a MOVIE. Unfortunately pacing of the Game suffers due to the Melodramatic cutscenes. No one is saying the Game is shit. The game just is not as Amazing as it could have been because of the cutscenes. for some reason you are offended by this.

From what I remember the Killer and Hard Boiled were both heavy on the melodrama. It was about 50/50 like the MGS games IIRC.

I'm not offended by that though. I'm offended by the people who are overzealous when hating on the writing.

If someone says that the pacing is upset by the cinematics or they think the cinematics are too long then I can see their point. It's 100% valid, but it's not my opinion.

Including the context of a release or the date when evaluating whether you personally enjoy it or not is a mistake imo. It shouldn't factor in. Your own personal maturing and nostalgia for what you've enjoyed in the past I can see, but not just straight because it came out at a certain time it's more acceptable.

 

[GhaleonQ]

Well, it's not fundamentally serious I don't think.

With the VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGES, innumerable double-backs to previous plot points or themes, and tone of the conclusions to every game in the series (even pre-Solid 1), I don't understand how you can think otherwise.

In any case, I've never bought the idea of guilty pleasures.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

From what I remember the Killer and Hard Boiled were both heavy on the melodrama. It was about 50/50 like the MGS games IIRC.

I'm not offended by that though. I'm offended by the people who are overzealous when hating on the writing.

If someone says that the pacing is upset by the cinematics or they think the cinematics are too long then I can see their point. It's 100% valid, but it's not my opinion.

Including the context of a release or the date when evaluating whether you personally enjoy it or not is a mistake imo. It shouldn't factor in. Your own personal maturing and nostalgia for what you've enjoyed in the past I can see, but not just straight because it came out at a certain time it's more acceptable.

no I am saying the reason Killer and HArdboiled dont get called out is because Not many ppl are actually watching them . MGS4 is fresh in everyones mind. You cant really compare the two.

and complaints against the movies for Melodrama are valid....so i dont see your point.

 

[Narag]

Hayter's on the mark here.

 

[dark10x]

This I can agree with. MGS is really well orchestrated and deep B-movie fun. It's still very B-movie in execution even with AAA production.

I think reflects more the influences on Kojima than the quality of his writing. He still does have problems in some areas, most significantly Drebin, but overall it's a well executed government conspiracy B-movie. It isn't shallow though. It is deep in that it does have a message which it approaches intelligently through the medium of B-movie theatrics.

At the person who thought that MGS4 is the worst... the gameplay is the best of them all imo. I guess if you don't like having a ton of cinematics I can see it. I've never played any of them more than once, but that one time through is awesome. As a one-time-through experience I enjoyed MGS4 the most. I really liked the ending though. It went on for a while but I just soaked it up and loved it. Loved what they did with Raiden. Loved the marriage. Loved the final conspiracy exposition.

What makes MGS better than a B-movie is the fact that it is a game. The game may present a story no better than a B-movie, but the fact that you participate in this experience and the fact that it last significantly longer than any movie ever could allow it to become something more. A movie or a novel must stand almost entirely upon its storyline, but a game can rely on all sorts of things with a story only playing one of the roles.

Due to its presentation, I don't even think it should be compared to a B-movie as it's a very different animal. The cutscenes may seem cinematic, but they are not designed in the same way as those you'd find in a film due to the fact that this IS a game.

 

[BobsRevenge]

With the VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGES, innumerable double-backs to previous plot points or themes, and tone of the conclusions to every game in the series (even pre-Solid 1), I don't understand how you can think otherwise.

In any case, I've never bought the idea of guilty pleasures.

The double-backs provide a Lost-style catching up on the context for people who haven't played the games before or put it down for a while. The tons of conclusions happened because he's telling a 20 hour per installment long story across the MGS games, not a 1 and 1/2 or 3 hour long story per installment like movies.

As far as the messages go, Kojima takes those seriously, but he doesn't take everything in the game seriously certainly. He also doesn't put the message out there like something like Hotel Rwanda or Schindler's List, so it's not like he's putting it out there as a VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE. It's more like Romero's zombie movies where it provides another level of depth.

MGS has it's Tom Clancy government conspiracy influence, it's b-movie melodrama influence, and it's messages. I can see how someone wouldn't like all of these things wrapped up into one story, but it fills out four fairly long video games and it needs enough story to do that. It is kind of an ambitious mess and I can recognize the opinions of people who don't like it, but I enjoy it. I just think some people take their dislike way too far and I can't understand those people.

 

[BobsRevenge]

no I am saying the reason Killer and HArdboiled dont get called out is because Not many ppl are actually watching them . MGS4 is fresh in everyones mind. You cant really compare the two.

and complaints against the movies for Melodrama are valid....so i dont see your point.

If you enjoy those things that are just as melodramatic then it isn't valid. That's my point.

 

[Auron_Kale]

I actually attended the panel at AX on Friday (I'm still actually in LA - going back home tomorrow) and pretty much everyone (including myself) agreed with the points he made.

 

[Miburou]

well, didn't they tell us he's half japanese / half american at some point ? plus it's not like everything makes sense in MGS I just thought they picked the voiceactor's name for each version.

And yeah, Snake not being able to suicide doesn't really fit the character.
But it's been stated before, by Kojima himself, that he had to change the ending he had in mind, on producers and konami's request.

If he's a clone, then he's 100% whatever Big Boss is. The egg used in cloning is just a shell (no DNA), as all the chromosomes come from the father.

And do you have a link to where Kojima says he had to change the ending? That sucks, and I hope a rerelease of MGS4 (like Substance and Subsistence before it) has that part in it.

 

[Htown]

Man I totally agree. If only he'd had any experience in scriptwriting himself.

HOly crap.

I did not know that.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

If you enjoy those things that are just as melodramatic then it isn't valid. That's my point.

again I enjoy those movies because of action I enjoy it despite the melo drama.

I enjoy MGS4 despite crappy pacing, booring mission briefings and melodramatic cutscenes. But that does not mean the flaws dont exist.

 

[Awntawn]

This I can agree with. MGS is really well orchestrated and deep B-movie fun. It's still very B-movie in execution even with AAA production.

I think reflects more the influences on Kojima than the quality of his writing. He still does have problems in some areas, most significantly Drebin, but overall it's a well executed government conspiracy B-movie. It isn't shallow though. It is deep in that it does have a message which it approaches intelligently through the medium of B-movie theatrics.

At the person who thought that MGS4 is the worst... the gameplay is the best of them all imo. I guess if you don't like having a ton of cinematics I can see it. I've never played any of them more than once, but that one time through is awesome. As a one-time-through experience I enjoyed MGS4 the most. I really liked the ending though. It went on for a while but I just soaked it up and loved it. Loved what they did with Raiden. Loved the marriage. Loved the final conspiracy exposition.

You've seen B-movies with better, I've seen A-movies with worse.

The quality of the script does not determine whether a movie is A or B.

 

[MightyHealthy]

Hayter's on the mark here.

exactly.

if it were otherwise, this thread would still bear his name :lol

 

[BobsRevenge]

You've seen B-movies with better, I've seen A-movies with worse.

The quality of the script does not determine whether a movie is A or B.

No doubt. That's not what I was saying. B-movie has become a style unto itself. I agree with you.

 

[KGKK]

My favourite line Hayter ever wrote, a cookie for anybody who knows where this is from.

"You know what happens when lighting hits a frog, same thing as everything else"

What a badass line....:lol :lol

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

My favourite line Hayter ever wrote, a cookie for anybody who knows where this is from.

"You know what happens when lighting hits a frog, same thing as everything else"

What a badass line....:lol :lol

:lol :lol

Joss Whedon wrote that line, you ignorant retard.

 

[Exempted]

:lol :lol

Joss Whedon wrote that line, you ignorant retard.

He's alive!

 

[Stumpokapow]

He's alive!

Did you ever doubt it?

 

[Stinkles]

SCIENCE QUIZ:

What would happen to the more emotionally defensive fanboys if Kojima himself criticized MGS?

 

[disappeared]

i'll be totally honest when i say that i actually wanted Snake to carry out his execution. even more so, i had a weird thought of the player being the one to pull the trigger.

 

[DCharlie]

What would happen to the more emotionally defensive fanboys if Kojima himself criticized MGS?

obviously, it would call for a Kojima vs Kojima mud wrestle to decide the winner!

 

[NumberTwo]

The guy brings some valid points. The story has always been one of the major put offs for me to be honest. I've always found it to be needlessly convoluted and irrelevant, and that contributed a lot to why I just couldn't be immersed in it.

I had no idea MGS fanboys were so rabid. Last week you guys would've licked the cheese from this guys balls, and now you're ready to lynch him.

 

[Darkpen]

Did you ever doubt it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEktwOPo5gc

 

[KTallguy]

SCIENCE QUIZ:

What would happen to the more emotionally defensive fanboys if Kojima himself criticized MGS?

Kojima already has!
And you ALWAYS have regrets after a project, you always wanted to make something better than what you eventually bring out. It's important to let go though.

MGS4 has a great story, IMO, but it did have a lot of issues.
I think that leaving more to the imagination, and also only giving that in depth explanation to players who sought it out, would have been the best way to go.

I think Kojima just felt like he needed to make sure MGS is DONE.
I secretly believe that he has wanted to work on a brand new franchise for ages, but the MGS fans keep pulling him back.

 

[Awntawn]

No doubt. That's not what I was saying. B-movie has become a style unto itself. I agree with you.

I can appreciate that sentiment. Sorry for misunderstanding, there's just too many people these days downplaying video game narrative in general by saying, "the best game stories wouldn't even make a decent B-movie", as if to insult it. B-movie stories can be pretty damn good D;

 

[Tutomos]

He specifically called out the suicide scene highlighted in Metal Gear Solid 4 trailers, saying that Snake, a man who's killed thousands, shouldn't flinch at pulling the trigger on himself. "I didn't agree with that at all, and I begged them to change it, but I think it's still in the final game," he said. "I didn't buy it at all. I think it's weak for Snake to be killing other people and then not be able to kill himself when it's time. If he knows it's time, then it's time."

I watched "White light, black rain" today, a documentary about the Hiroshima bombing. A survivor said when her sister jumped in front of an oncoming train and died but she tried to do the same but flinch at the last second. She said she realized later that there are two kinds of courage; the courage to die and the courage to live. don't know if kojima spared Snake's life for plot twist or something else, I just thinkt that maybe not ending his own life might not make Snake as weak as some have thought.

 

[BigBoss]

I watched "White light, black rain" today, a documentary about the Hiroshima bombing. A survivor said when her sister jumped in front of an oncoming train and died but she tried to do the same but flinch at the last second. She said she realized later that there are two kinds of courage; the courage to die and the courage to live. don't know if kojima spared Snake's life for plot twist or something else, I just thinkt that maybe not ending his own life might not make Snake as weak as some have thought.

Again, Snake didn't pull the trigger because

Spoiler

Big Boss

stopped him.

 

[Blame!]

SCIENCE QUIZ:

What would happen to the more emotionally defensive fanboys if Kojima himself criticized MGS?

mass suicides, thousand page threads, and other types of neogaf photoshop shenanigans.... threats of boycotts and comparisons to denis dyack. basically, the usual hobby nerd forum bullshit that fizzles to nothing but a meme in 6 months. i would love for kojimama to come out and say he hates the ending of mgs4 and watch all the defense force fanboys eating some serious crow. it would be the right thing to do for a guy who basically ruined his MGS saga by pussying out at the very end.

 

[Tutomos]

Again, Snake didn't pull the trigger because

Spoiler

Big Boss

stopped him.

Really? I must have remembered it wrong. Snake's panting and hesitation sure didn't convince me that he wanted to die.

 

[News Bot]

Big Boss didn't stop Snake from pulling the trigger. Where is everyone getting this bullshit from? :lol

The only gunshot came from the Operator, which just so happens to be MAGICALLY EMPTY right after the gunshot, with Snake sweating to death and grunting. He pulled out and shot off. (shut up)

I was hoping the game was going to end there. But then "he" comes along and screws it up with his 20 minute Speech of Retcons. Which happens to undermine everything that happened right before it. :lol

 

[Darkpen]

Really? I must have remembered it wrong. Snake's panting and hesitation sure didn't convince me that he wanted to die.

Nope, you remember it right.

Big Boss didn't stop Snake from pulling the trigger. Where is everyone getting this bullshit from? :lol

The only gunshot came from the Operator, which just so happens to be MAGICALLY EMPTY right after the gunshot, with Snake sweating to death and grunting. He pulled out and shot off. (shut up)

No fucking clue. I don't know where the hell BigBoss, and anyone else who shares this "fact," is getting it from. As you said, its clearly from the Operator.

Are you guys so fucking defensive that you'd actually try to combat the ending naysayers by saying that Big Boss stopped him? Are you kidding me?

 

[Lostconfused]

Big Boss didn't stop Snake from pulling the trigger. Where is everyone getting this bullshit from? :lol

The only gunshot came from the Operator, which just so happens to be MAGICALLY EMPTY right after the gunshot, with Snake sweating to death and grunting. He pulled out and shot off. (shut up)

I was hoping the game was going to end there. But then "he" comes along and screws it up with his 20 minute Speech of Retcons. Which happens to undermine everything that happened right before it. :lol

What do you mean empty? All i remember is snake pulling out the clip and leaving 1 round in the chamber because thats all he would need to get the job done. Also people are saying Snake was stooped was because he didn't have a reason to kill himself anymore after the conversation.

 

[DCharlie]

the problems i have getting into the MGS story is the tone.

I just can't tell if it's serious, tongue in cheek, deliberately stupid, overly serious etc...

i just can't get into the story because i just can't tell how i'm supposed to feel about the various plot elements/lines etc...

i know that sounds stupid, but when i hear things like

Spoiler

"i only fall off my bike ...."

i mean... that's supposed to be funny? or is it serious?

there's a gulf between the two - if it's campy fun then i can dig it i guess, but if it's serious then <glados> Lol, lol, lol lol, looool </glados> and i seriously can't tell when Kojima is pulling the funny lever or the seriuz lever.

Also people are saying Snake was stooped was because he didn't have a reason to kill himself anymore after the conversation.

didn't that conversation take place after the shot?
perhaps i need to revist...

 

[News Bot]

By empty, I mean totally berift of bullets. He pussied out and shot the last one in the air (one would assume). The chamber itself is right back.

Anyone who says he was stopped is either very ignorant or in denial.

 

[Lostconfused]

By empty, I mean totally berift of bullets. He pussied out and shot the last one in the air (one would assume). The chamber itself is right back.

Anyone who says he was stopped is either very ignorant or in denial.

Ok well the reason i am saying he was stopped is because Big Boss told Snake that he doesn't have to kill himself because he is not going to become a walking biological weapon that might kill millions of people.

And personally i am still not shocked that a person couldn't kill him or her self.

 

[kruskev]

the problems i have getting into the MGS story is the tone.

I just can't tell if it's serious, tongue in cheek, deliberately stupid, overly serious etc...

i just can't get into the story because i just can't tell how i'm supposed to feel about the various plot elements/lines etc...

i know that sounds stupid, but when i hear things like

Spoiler

"i only fall off my bike ...."

i mean... that's supposed to be funny? or is it serious?

there's a gulf between the two - if it's campy fun then i can dig it i guess, but if it's serious then <glados> Lol, lol, lol lol, looool </glados> and i seriously can't tell when Kojima is pulling the funny lever or the seriuz lever.



didn't that conversation take place after the shot?
perhaps i need to revist...

I read somewhere that the humor in the MGS series are from Peter Sellers, who Kojima grew up watching. Having rewatched some of the pink panther movies I can see a lot of similarities although not really my style.

 

[Darkpen]

the problems i have getting into the MGS story is the tone.

I just can't tell if it's serious, tongue in cheek, deliberately stupid, overly serious etc...

i just can't get into the story because i just can't tell how i'm supposed to feel about the various plot elements/lines etc...

i know that sounds stupid, but when i hear things like

Spoiler

"i only fall off my bike ...."

i mean... that's supposed to be funny? or is it serious?

there's a gulf between the two - if it's campy fun then i can dig it i guess, but if it's serious then <glados> Lol, lol, lol lol, looool </glados> and i seriously can't tell when Kojima is pulling the funny lever or the seriuz lever.



didn't that conversation take place after the shot?
perhaps i need to revist...

Did you play MGS3? It was self-reference. Its supposed to be a "oh, huh... hmmm...." sort of thing.

But really, I think you're just lost. Did you play the past MGS games? It was a pretty obvious reference to the past game.

Personally, when I was playing MGS4, I was just chugging down all of the kool-aid the game was handing me, without a single drip. I guess its just harder for people who didn't play the previous games. Kojipro am fail for lack of past-games comprehension, despite those silly "flashbacks."

 

[Somnia]

This guy definatly sounds like he knows what he is talking about. I really hope he is the one they pick to write the script for MGS the movie and Viggo Mort as snake would be a damn good choice IMO

 

[Darkpen]

This guy definatly sounds like he knows what he is talking about. I really hope he is the one they pick to write the script for MGS the movie and Viggo Mort as snake would be a damn good choice IMO

I'm still rooting for Christian Bale D:

 

[DCharlie]

Did you play MGS3? It was self-reference. Its supposed to be a "oh, huh... hmmm...." sort of thing.

But really, I think you're just lost. Did you play the past MGS games? It was a pretty obvious reference to the past game.

Yes, i played MGS3, and 2, and 1....

i know it was a self reference, but it was such a bad line, i couldn't tell if it was supposed to be "haha funny" or "serious". Perhaps it was partly the delivery?

I'm not criticising the context, i'm saying that i have been unable to tell what the overal tone of the series is supposed to be. I keep thinking it's generally fairly serious, with points of lightheartedness and fun, but then overall it's just a bit blurred and i'm unable to tell how i'm supposed to react to certain segments.

Its supposed to be a "oh, huh... hmmm...." sort of thing.

haha, but what does that mean? i mean - i made a similar sound in my head when she said it, but yeah...

 

[lordg]

I agree with Hayter. Snake dying at the end would of been more emotional.

 

[Dragon]

I'm still rooting for Christian Bale D:

Even if they get a movie about it, do you really think they'll get a budget so they can afford A-list actors like the ones mentioned?

 

[KTallguy]

I think Snake living is a better message of hope.
People don't need to die like that.
People should be able to die in peace.
Forget all this "macho" bullshit.
Suicide sucks.

 

[Moray]

MGS4 was my first MGS game and as an outsider, I definitely agree that the story was like a B-movie's. I think it goes back to the fact that the original Metal Gear game was never intended to be the start of a long series, so I'm guessing a lot of the story was just slapped together over time.

 

[Blame!]

haha, but what does that mean? i mean - i made a similar sound in my head when she said it, but yeah...

i think it means "puhleeze stop dissing on my god".... i mean, c'mon, bad story is bad. praise the gameplay all you want but to defend the story or to attack its detractors just makes you look like a big bootlickin doof.

you didnt play MGS3!1!!11 u suck!

sheesh.

 

[Awntawn]

Yes, i played MGS3, and 2, and 1....

i know it was a self reference, but it was such a bad line, i couldn't tell if it was supposed to be "haha funny" or "serious". Perhaps it was partly the delivery?

I'm not criticising the context, i'm saying that i have been unable to tell what the overal tone of the series is supposed to be. I keep thinking it's generally fairly serious, with points of lightheartedness and fun, but then overall it's just a bit blurred and i'm unable to tell how i'm supposed to react to certain segments.



haha, but what does that mean? i mean - i made a similar sound in my head when she said it, but yeah...

You've watched anime, haven't you? 3;