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Debate Thread: Why is Valve making L4D2 instead of continuing L4D1 DLC?
- Thread starter Akia
- Start date
No it didn't.Slavik81 said:
And they weren't even that hard. I got all I needed without ever explicitly farming. Just played medic the same way I always did. I quit playing medic before I got the last unlock cause I had a new found love for... I dunno some other class. Probably heavy. But had I continued, I have no doubt... etc.
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Anyway, L4D2 is a completely different type of situation from the incremental TF2 updates.
FIVE entirely new campaigns. FOUR entirely new characters. Plus all the other additions -- new special infected, new weapons, new ammo types, tweaks to the director system.
That's a lot of fucking content for one free update.
Undoubtedly, Valve likes money. No one could reasonably deny this. But their reasoning behind this makes sense for MORE than just money.
Plus they said they're still going to release more updates for L4D. Chill, bitches. Chill.
SimpleDesign
Member
They probably need money to buy out 3D Realms and the Duke Nukem IP.
Also they're doing it to fund their new source engine for Half Life 3. Which is obviously being developed side by side with episode 3 to ensure there isn't a long wait.
Also they're doing it to fund their new source engine for Half Life 3. Which is obviously being developed side by side with episode 3 to ensure there isn't a long wait.
Still looks like an "episodes" like fuck up, just in reverse.
They want to enhance one of their products in a way patches couldn't do it and don't know how to name and market it. And now everyone is confused......
That is a pretty bad example considering they had to cancel the black box and HL2/Ep1 were pretty much free content in the OB.
They want to enhance one of their products in a way patches couldn't do it and don't know how to name and market it. And now everyone is confused......
Atrophis said:
That is a pretty bad example considering they had to cancel the black box and HL2/Ep1 were pretty much free content in the OB.
Unless these are mistaken, http://tf2wiki.net/w/index.php?title=Medic_achievements&oldid=27034 and http://www.neowin.net/news/gamers/08/04/28/team-fortress-2-medic-achievements--loadingequip-screens you needed all the achievements to get the Ubersaw when the pack first came out.TheOneGuy said:
They said they were going to support L4D with more content than they have, so why should people believe them that they're going to support L4D with a sequel announced.
Just now jumping in, but it does seem a bit disenguous of Valve given how they historically support games to be releasing a sequel a year later. Now granted, it will likely be delayed due to typical Valve, but still... I'd like to see more support for L4D. TF2 is still getting a mountain of support out of Valve and it's been what, 2 years?
Moral of the story though, is that I'm there day 1 and will be buying it regardless. Valve knows what they have here, and that everyone will buy it anyway. Including those in here saying they won't. :lol
Moral of the story though, is that I'm there day 1 and will be buying it regardless. Valve knows what they have here, and that everyone will buy it anyway. Including those in here saying they won't. :lol
And you know it!
Your memory betrays you. It did require all the achievements at first. It was only around the Pyro update that they changed it such that you needed only about half the achievements to unlock all the weapons, rather than all the achievements.TheOneGuy said:
Big Pharama, Specialist, You'll Feel a Little Prick and Blunt Trama are all nearly impossible in normal play. Big Pharama is the most reasonable of them, but I'd only ever seen it happen ONCE in all my time playing. That is why it was the only update for which I visted an achievement server.
But I digress; this is a L4D thread, not a TF2 thread, and I've already stated that dLM8R's argument can stand without that specific example (even if I don't agree with him.)
EDIT: It seems I took too long compiling evidence. Post shortened in light of my tardyness.
Visualante
Member
25-50% off in Christmas sale.eznark said:
sixteen-bit
Member
I think it allowed them to change the setting dramatically, plus L4D was huge at retail, so it just made sense for them.
Interfectum
Gold Member
Interview with Valve here about L4D2 and why they made it a stand alone: http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1138
They are looking into ways to integrate L4D1 and L4D2.
They are looking into ways to integrate L4D1 and L4D2.
eznark said:
I'll have a hard time justifying it if they put it out at $50. Knowing Valve they'll release it at $40-45 at launch if you pre-load. But I'm honestly hoping for a launch price of $40, with a discount making it $35 for pre-load.. Hoping for this given the length of time between L4D and this, but I'm not holding my breath at all for this as everyone likes money. Valve typically does listen to their fans so who knows.
Here's my thought on it: Valve clearly lied. Either they lied in the beginning about supporting it like TF2 (back when L4D was launching) or they're lying now about putting the team on the sequel immediately after release. I tend to think it's the latter. It started out as DLC, but morphed into a retail release when they started crunching numbers.
Here's the thing, those melee weapons look more like TF2 style add-ons they hinted L4D would get. Fun and goofy. They clearly said they were making additional campaigns. So what happened?
They've announced they've sold over 2.5 million retail copies. You'd figure a large chunk of the PC crowd is buying directly from Steam. So it's not unreasonable to give 360 half those retail sales. Figure at least 1.25 million sales. Now also factor that high profile console sequels generally sell better than the initial product. Name recognition goes a long way in this. So 2 million for L4D on 360 seems like an entirely realistic figure. That's a gross of 120,000,000 dollars. Obviously MS, EA, and retailers all take their pound of flesh. And Valve is only see a fraction of that. But it's still a ton of money.
So Valve starts crunching the numbers and says, you know, **** it. Why release this as free DLC. Thats a ton of money. Let's just release it as a retail product. This coupled with the fact that Steam is now a MASSIVE success, they no longer need the blind loyalty of their supporters. So a vocal minority is upset. So what. It's not like Steam is gonna suffer from ticking them off. And the extra money from L4D2 would be huge. Screw it. Take the money.
Here's the thing, those melee weapons look more like TF2 style add-ons they hinted L4D would get. Fun and goofy. They clearly said they were making additional campaigns. So what happened?
They've announced they've sold over 2.5 million retail copies. You'd figure a large chunk of the PC crowd is buying directly from Steam. So it's not unreasonable to give 360 half those retail sales. Figure at least 1.25 million sales. Now also factor that high profile console sequels generally sell better than the initial product. Name recognition goes a long way in this. So 2 million for L4D on 360 seems like an entirely realistic figure. That's a gross of 120,000,000 dollars. Obviously MS, EA, and retailers all take their pound of flesh. And Valve is only see a fraction of that. But it's still a ton of money.
So Valve starts crunching the numbers and says, you know, **** it. Why release this as free DLC. Thats a ton of money. Let's just release it as a retail product. This coupled with the fact that Steam is now a MASSIVE success, they no longer need the blind loyalty of their supporters. So a vocal minority is upset. So what. It's not like Steam is gonna suffer from ticking them off. And the extra money from L4D2 would be huge. Screw it. Take the money.
Interfectum
Gold Member
1-D_FTW said:
Read the interview I posted, that's pretty much what happened (according to Valve).
Interfectum
Gold Member
Zzoram said:
I'm torn on the issue, but ultimately I want to play more L4D so I'll get it.
I think it's a very vocal minority who are upset about this. I've been playing Left 4 Dead the past couple of days and heard people discussing what's going to be in the sequel, the new characters etc, and they're excited for it.
I just can't begrudge paying full price for a sequel when I've put literally hundreds of hours into the original. It really bugs me when people talk about amount of content like it's the be all and end all as to how much a product is worth. It takes lots of testing, time and money to make a game as fun and endlessly replayable as Left 4 Dead in the first place. They're trying to add to and refine the experience, improve the director, building 5 new campaigns...it's on a whole different level to the drip feed of new TF2 tweaks. Paying $60 for a game doesn't entitle you to endless support for years.
I just can't begrudge paying full price for a sequel when I've put literally hundreds of hours into the original. It really bugs me when people talk about amount of content like it's the be all and end all as to how much a product is worth. It takes lots of testing, time and money to make a game as fun and endlessly replayable as Left 4 Dead in the first place. They're trying to add to and refine the experience, improve the director, building 5 new campaigns...it's on a whole different level to the drip feed of new TF2 tweaks. Paying $60 for a game doesn't entitle you to endless support for years.
Because TWIG is throwing the Wuts around, I'll include the 1UP article excerpt that was quoted like 10 times in the other thread:
1UP: This seems like a game that would lend itself well to your style of episodic-content delivery. Is that something you have planned for the Xbox 360 and PC versions of Left 4 Dead?
GN: Yes. It really feels like we're in this transition between entertainment as this packaged-goods phenomenon and entertainment as an ongoing service. TF2 is our product that's furthest along down this path -- we've been doing these updates every four to six weeks where we release new maps, new Achievements, new unlockables, new weapons, the movies like "Meet The Sniper," and so on. The response has been very strong. Each time we've done it, our multiplayer numbers and our sales have gone up by about 20 percent. So it's a way of growing an audience and developing an audience -- having those regular releases and thinking more of yourself as providing ongoing content streams seems to work really well. We fully intend to do that with Left 4 Dead as well -- [make] movies about each of the characters and how they came together as a team; what happened with the world when everything became Infected; [and] release new characters, new weapons, new campaigns -- and just view it as an ongoing audience-development content stream.
Not a whole lot of wuts to that. From the horse's mouth and very direct. No room for misinterpretation.
EDIT: And yeah, L4D2 content would have been a ton, but TF2 has easily more than doubled in size. People forget just how radically the game has grown.
1UP: This seems like a game that would lend itself well to your style of episodic-content delivery. Is that something you have planned for the Xbox 360 and PC versions of Left 4 Dead?
GN: Yes. It really feels like we're in this transition between entertainment as this packaged-goods phenomenon and entertainment as an ongoing service. TF2 is our product that's furthest along down this path -- we've been doing these updates every four to six weeks where we release new maps, new Achievements, new unlockables, new weapons, the movies like "Meet The Sniper," and so on. The response has been very strong. Each time we've done it, our multiplayer numbers and our sales have gone up by about 20 percent. So it's a way of growing an audience and developing an audience -- having those regular releases and thinking more of yourself as providing ongoing content streams seems to work really well. We fully intend to do that with Left 4 Dead as well -- [make] movies about each of the characters and how they came together as a team; what happened with the world when everything became Infected; [and] release new characters, new weapons, new campaigns -- and just view it as an ongoing audience-development content stream.
Not a whole lot of wuts to that. From the horse's mouth and very direct. No room for misinterpretation.
EDIT: And yeah, L4D2 content would have been a ton, but TF2 has easily more than doubled in size. People forget just how radically the game has grown.
Just read the Shack interview.. Kind of makes sense about how they're trying to overhaul the game and sounds like the changes are just too much to do in patches and beyond the scope of that. Seeing the new melee combat with the axe and such has me really excited. Really excited. And yeah, looks like it'll be full price. It still looks as addictive as crack.
TheKingsCrown
Banned
From the videos I saw of Left 4 Dead 2, Valve, I am officially recording this as your first corporate mistake in a long time. Why on earth would we pay full price for what was shown?
My mood on this will change if they show something that actually warrants a 2 after it, so we'll see.
My mood on this will change if they show something that actually warrants a 2 after it, so we'll see.
Bleh, I wasn't expecting full price.
Keep in mind it took seven months before the first TF2 content update. And... seven months before the first L4D content update.
That's called changing plans.
Sure it sucks that we all expected free content, but, uh... cry more? The best part about all this is that even if they had stuck with the only-free-content plan, the next big patch would bring in just as many whiners. Either way, I'm entertained.
And what the fuck is a wut.
Huh? Did you forget the survival update?Ikuu said:
Keep in mind it took seven months before the first TF2 content update. And... seven months before the first L4D content update.
It's hardly a lie to plan one thing and then change your mind.1-D_FTW said:
That's called changing plans.
Sure it sucks that we all expected free content, but, uh... cry more? The best part about all this is that even if they had stuck with the only-free-content plan, the next big patch would bring in just as many whiners. Either way, I'm entertained.
And what the fuck is a wut.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Interfectum said:
This is me makin' poop noises at L4D2
Pthbbt
Stitch
Member
meh... they promised more campaigns.TheOneGuy said:
and they managed to kill the modcommunity pretty nicely. first they don't release the sdk for months, then they release a beta version and days later they announce a sequel. great job valve.
oh btw fix the shitty item drops in tf2 plskthx
That doesn't hold a candle to TF2's content updates...and they said they would support it like they are doing with TF2. There will be two L4D games being released in between TF games...that's pretty sad.TheOneGuy said:
I think the difference with this franchise is that they've built up an exploitable console player-base. The console market is used to yearly iterations and premium dlc packs...and it is eaten up at retail. So it's a no-brainer for them. They are going to try to make money where there is money to be made, I thought they considered themselves above that, but whatever. You make money on the PC space with longevity, and you make money on the console space the opposite.
CajoleJuice
Member
:loleznark said:
wayward archer
Member
We wouldn't be getting 5 full campaigns this soon had they done this TF2 style.
2 years later and they haven't finished getting unlockables to all the characters (demoman, soldier, engineer), and while they've made around 15 new maps that's only 3 campaigns worth over 2 years.
I'm glad they are doing this because i'd rather have more content sooner than space it out. There will be plenty of content from the community once the full SDK is out and hopefully they'll have a system in place that we can access it easily as they promised.
If you only bought l4d because of the promise of free content (more than just survival pack) based on TF2 then vote with your dollars and don't buy this one, plain and simple. If enough people do it then they'll get the message.
For anyone complaining we didn't get enough content with the first game, then it obviously wasn't for you, because many people played it for hundreds of hours. Not bad for a $50 game.
2 years later and they haven't finished getting unlockables to all the characters (demoman, soldier, engineer), and while they've made around 15 new maps that's only 3 campaigns worth over 2 years.
I'm glad they are doing this because i'd rather have more content sooner than space it out. There will be plenty of content from the community once the full SDK is out and hopefully they'll have a system in place that we can access it easily as they promised.
If you only bought l4d because of the promise of free content (more than just survival pack) based on TF2 then vote with your dollars and don't buy this one, plain and simple. If enough people do it then they'll get the message.
For anyone complaining we didn't get enough content with the first game, then it obviously wasn't for you, because many people played it for hundreds of hours. Not bad for a $50 game.
Cheeto said:
What he said.
There might be another side to the coin we haven't thought of. Besides L4D whats valve got coming?
Any news on portal 2? No.
Episode 3? No.
CS? No.
Face it their financial year looks fairly empty. They need something to fill the void. What can they scrap up with little time, minimal effort, for maximum effectiveness?
Doug Lombardi said:
Doug Lombardi said:
Chet Faliszek said:
Suerly these should do away with many of the concerns some of you guys have for Valve selling out. It really does seem like a true sequel and the support L4D1 was going to get is just being shifted to L4D2 as it is the product Valve wanted the original to be. And the hint at the mall level is awesome.
johnFkennedy
Member
People are just making a big fuss over this because it's being released by Valve. Had this game been developed by someone else; this would have been accepted as standard business practice. Due to Valve's outstanding track record of supporting their games after release, a lot of gamers feel entitled to an update that will cost them as little as possible. In other words, Valve spoiled us.
Mash said:
So when they come up with a bunch of new ideas it seems safe to assume those ideas will be shifted to Left 4 Dead 3. At this point, the impetus is on them to prove otherwise.
I think it has more to do with Gabe Newell saying TF2 levels of updating were imminent is a more likely explanation.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
Draft said:
Nailed it.
If I were Valve, I'd have done the same thing. Still, good will is pretty hard to get back, you know?
Clearly they made a business determination that whatever good will they've built up is not worth what they stand to make. That's their call. We'll see if it's right.
eznark said:
Well I can't say they won't but Doug Lombardi clearly says there that that won't be happening again. If we see a L4D3 next year then yeah I'll be pissed because he'd have directly lied, not just changed plans like they had this time. But for now I agree that L4D2 deserves a standalone release.