Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
subversus said:
Yeah!
Their line is that if the country defaults the government won't be able to spend beyond its means which in turn will force fiscal responsability.
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Debt Ceiling Deal (OT) BOHICA
- Thread starter waynej506
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Yeah!
Their line is that if the country defaults the government won't be able to spend beyond its means which in turn will force fiscal responsability.
Oh yeah, an entire political party and the most powerful person in Congress (the speaker of the house) just threatening to destroy the entire global economy over taxes, even exlcusively on the rich, is simply "trolling," not something to be taken seriously after they hijacked unemployment benefits, threatened tax increases on the lower and middle classes, and shut down state governments over the last 9 months over these same issues.BruiserBear said:
Based on the previous 9 months of empirical evidence, they're not bluffing. They'll do it.
Maybe people like you keep on voting for them becausea you don't think they're that crazy. The only reason you don't realize that is because saner minds have caved to their demands so they don't drop the match onto the gas tank.
As bad as this recession was, if the banks had been allowed to fail, if the stimulus hadn't been passed, if unemployment benefits lost funding, if the auto industry had been allowed to fail, I can guarantee you we were facing another Great Depression, possibly even greater than the first one. And we may yet see it, if we don't raise the debt ceiling.
(Actually, the funny thing is, Iremember in late 2008, it was Bush and the republicans who kept on saying we had to bail out the banks, and democrats holding thier noses and muttering "Yeah, yeah, we know, but this isn't right, and it shouldn't have come to such a situation in the first place..." Not that bialing out the banks was a bad thing, because it was the right thing to do, but I distinctly remember democrat legislators being the ones who were most vocal about their displeasure with such an action, even though they recognized the need for the bailouts and voted for them at the same time)
They aren't lying. In fact they have historical precedence. Most countries never pass austerity reforms unless something forces them to.Bitmap Frogs said:
Do people really think you are going to see entitlment reform or massive cuts in defense during boom periods and peacetimes?
The right is spinning this as though obama is seeking a debt ceiling raise so that he can approve more wasteful spending and debt for the country. They are not treating this as though raising the debt ceiling must be done to prevent an immediate economic catastrophe, and, in fact, claim that the compromise is a debt ceiling increase in exchange for spending cuts.subversus said:
That's why I can't understand people like Bruiser who say this is just two sides trying to make the other look bad. The republicans aren't looking at raising the debt ceiling as a forgone conclusion, but as a potential compromise on their part, which they may or may not agree to.
onadesertedisland
Member
If recent history is an indicator, the new "republican party" is willing to let the house burn down just to remove the tenant (Obama). If I had to guess the motive? Simple racism.
You want the IMF to come in and dictate your economy? If you think raising taxes on the rich is bad, you should see what those guys do. They sell all the US's assets for peanuts, hell they'd sell the nuclear arsenal to the Chinese if that's what'll get the US debts under control.Ripclawe said:
"Statue of Liberty?... anyone... ? Sold to Dubai for 5k!"
The GOP's demand for a short term increase is pure politics. Having to go through this whole charade 3 more times in the next 15 months is embracing economic uncertainty and brinksmanship.. There's really no practical benefit to such an action.TomServo said:
Yes, Obama benefits politically from avoiding such confrontations during the election season, but it happens to also be the best course of action for approaching our fiscal problems. I can't say the same thing about the 3-stage approach or this ridiculous super congress idea.
TheRagnCajun
Member
Bitmap Frogs said:
They will change their tune once the shit hits the fan.
The socialist, kenyan, marxist, birth-certificate attakcs on obama all havethe same underpinnings as racism: that he's an outsider, a foreigner, someone "different" who doesn't belong. Same thing with the attacks on his use of a teleprompter and being a "community organizer" who never had a real job: it all has an underlying message that he's "different," and that such differences make him inferior. It has the exact same underlying tones as racism, or xenophobia in a broader sense.Ripclawe said:
onadesertedisland
Member
Your debate technique is poor, sir.Ripclawe said:
balladofwindfishes
Member
Did any of them say Bill Clinton wasn't born in America?Spokker said:
Or that he was a secret Muslim because of his name?
I don't understand how anyone could not see racism as the underlying factor in all of this. It should have become blatantly clear what the message was when they hammered that Obama was born in Kenya. Why would they try to say Obama was not born in the US? Why use that to discredit him? What put the ideas into their little heads that Obama may not be from America?
outunderthestars
Banned
Spokker said:
except for Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, New Gingrich, Mike huckabee, etc
They all stoked the flames of that fire, then ran away as quickly as possible.
ReBurn
Gold Member
I was reading this article on CNN earlier:Zaptruder said:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/24/news/economy/debt_ceiling_no_deal/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=hp_t2
Both parties are playing politics with this because they're trying to influence the 2012 elections, not fix the problem. Nobody is worried about the problem, they're more worried about long-term power. If this goes away quickly then Obama and the Democrats can claim a victory over the debt problem in 2012. If it doesn't, then Boehner and the Republicans can use it as a millstone to hang around Obama's neck.
Defending either party at this point is seriously bizarre. The common folk should demand better from their elected officials.
BruiserBear
Banned
balladofwindfishes said:
Did Bill Clinton spend a good portion of his childhood living abroad? Was Bill Clinton's father a muslim? Did Bill Clinton attend a muslim school as a child? In fact, can you name me a single American president who has shared those three qualities with Obama?
It's hilarious watching people have this conversation about Obama without acknowledging that he clearly had a unique background for an American president. Of course none of that means that he's not an American citizen, or he's a muslim, but to deny that there is anything unique about his background is intellectually dishonest. He was obviously our first black president, and he has a very unique background. The fact that a few wacky conspiracy theories arose about him should surprise no one, and I personally believe it has nothing to do with the color of his skin.
If you had a white guy born in Hawaii, who spent a portion of his childhood living in Germany, and his father was a French atheist, and he attended an atheist school of sorts, it wouldn't be shocking if rumors arose that he might be an atheist who was born in Germany or France. Wouldn't surprise me in the least. But carry on with the talk that this is all about skin color. Some people enjoy that sort of thing.
So apparently, the Dems caved. Their plan have all spending cuts and no revenue increases. No cuts to defense *sigh*
I guess this was inevitable. The GOP always had the advantage in this game of chicken since they were more than willing to crash the car in the economy. Economic terrorism works!!!
I guess this was inevitable. The GOP always had the advantage in this game of chicken since they were more than willing to crash the car in the economy. Economic terrorism works!!!
methane47
Member
outunderthestars said:
Polls and Statistics are meaningless in US Media.
Look at what Jon Stewart Showed earlier today (Video at link)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/22/jon-stewarts-debt-ceiling_n_906273.html
Sirpopopop
Member
Ripclawe said:
Ireland crashed and burned because of its austerity measures.
Look at how much help the measures are doing for Greece & Portugal.
OH wait! They are still down the foxhole with no way out!
Edit: The example you want is Iceland.
Nopeoperon said:
IMF contributors in 2009- voting rights
Etats-Unis 17,09% 16,79%
Japon 6,13% 6,02%
Allemagne 5,99% 5,88%
France 4,94% 4,86%
Grande-Bretagne 4,94% 4,86%
Chine 3,72% 3,66%
Italie 3,25% 3,20%
Canada 2,93% 2,89%
Russie 2,74% 2,70%
Pays-Bas 2,38% 2,34%
Belgique 2,12% 2,09%
Inde 1,91% 1,89%
Mexique 1,45% 1,43%
Espagne 1,40% 1,39%
Brésil 1,40% 1,38%
Corée du Sud 1,35% 1,33%
Afrique du Sud 0,86% 0,85%
Turquie 0,55% 0,55%
USA has roughly the same quote-part as EU.
TheRagnCajun
Member
_Xenon_ said:
uhhh are you reading emails on penny stocks? Don't ever take advice from strangers on penny stocks.
balladofwindfishes
Member
McCain spent his early life abroad and wasn't even born in the traditional America (on a base).BruiserBear said:
Where were the wild accusations that McCain was not really American?
Why should I answer your arbitrary set of guidelines? Obviously Obama is a unique case, as he's the first black president, and the only president in history with any possible ties to islamic beliefs.
BruiserBear
Banned
balladofwindfishes said:
Being born abroad was only one part of the equation. Having a foreign born father, who was also a muslim, and then you attended a muslim school for a portion of your childhood.
That's a lot more to run with than "He was born on an army base abroad".
Mccain also has the whole "war hero" badge to wear, which obviously insulates you from that type of thing.
teruterubozu
Member
LOL!
NFL reaches a deal. Come on guys, you can do it too.
NFL reaches a deal. Come on guys, you can do it too.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Vox-Pop said:
Why the hell would you want to move to Australia? The entire continent is a walking, poisonous trap with the spiders and snakes.
unomas said:
unomas said:
Again, our inflation rate is lower right now. You really should just close it up cause you don't know what your talking about and with every post keep exposing your intellectual capacity only goes as far as your ability to plagiarize the musings of fringe blogs. The whole " their inflation is lower," was true in 2007 - when your silly mises article was written - it's not true now. Your biggest problem right now is you take info that reinforces your viewpoint without ever verifying it which ends you up with egg on your face. Your like a walking example of the dangers of confirmation bias.
balladofwindfishes
Member
That didn't insulate the Right's criticism of Kerry as a coward who deserted from the military, which wasn't even true...BruiserBear said:
And further, there have been a bunch of presidents with foreign born parents, and such things were never even mentioned in the elections of them.
There have been lots of president educated abroad, in England, France or Germany. Thomas Jefferson was taught by a Scottish immigrant. John Q Adams spent pretty much his entire childhood in Europe, and went to college in the Netherlands.
And to finish it off, how does any of what you're saying disprove that the Tea Party and sectors of the GOP are being hostile and self-destructive because Obama is black. Being Muslim =/= being black.
I really don't get this. If defaulting doesn't matter, then why on Earth are they so concerned about the debt in the first place? They offer no mechanism for any of their policies are supposed to work.Bitmap Frogs said:
Step 1: Cut Spending
Step 2: ???????
Step 3: Create Jobs
Step 1: Lower Taxes
Step 2: ??????
Step 3: Balance Budget
Step 1: Continue Deficit
Step 2: ??????? (now that it is clear that they don't take anything that could go here seriously)
Step 3: Disaster and Weimarian hyperinflation!
It's as if they have no concern for answering the question of cause and effect when defending their proposals. Instead, it's as if they're operating on a series of self-selected economic moral standards that, if followed, the holy economy will magically reward us for following.
empty vessel
Member
Trurl said:
That's a good way to describe it, I think. It is indeed the height of irony that they are threatening to default the country in the name of fiscal responsibility. As you say, if default is irrelevant (or even a good thing), then it seems we may as well double, triple, or even quadruple our spending. The best part about this peculiar version of fiscal responsibility is that we can also cut taxes to zero while we do it.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Didn't President Kennedy catch a lot of shit for being Catholic? Seen as someone that would let the Pope influence US policy? Doesn't Mitt Romney currently catch shit just for being Mormon?
It is quite common for presidential hopefuls to catch criticism simply due to their beliefs or background if they do not align with what the country is used to. Obama isn't unique in that regard.
It is quite common for presidential hopefuls to catch criticism simply due to their beliefs or background if they do not align with what the country is used to. Obama isn't unique in that regard.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Except for one minor differenceGoldenEye 007 said:
Obama isn't a muslim
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
The markets still have a week to shit themselves and apparently feel it's almost impossible that the U.S. will actually default.
Credit agencies, on the other hand, could drop the bomb any day.
Credit agencies, on the other hand, could drop the bomb any day.
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