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[Twilight Gap]

I have looked around and haven't seen any evidence to suggest that indoor cats are inherently less happy than those who live outdoors.

In my case, I believe my cat was happier when she had the energy and ability to roam free rather than patrol the same hallways and stuffy 4 walls. I can't help but feel that she's bored all day now that she's indoors more.

I don't think it applies to all cats though. If there's adequate space and stimulus indoors, enough attention from household members, and even other cats or pets, they should be just fine.

 

[Opiate]

This isn't even about "indoor / outdoor" to me. Even if you do have an indoor cat, what is the rationale? You're cutting off the first joint of their 'fingers' because, what, you can afford to purchase some scratch posts or a crate when you aren't around to supervise? I don't see how you can't afford these things if you were able to afford the cat, the litter, and feeding it.

Correct. That happens. People can afford to have cats but those cats either do not take to training (that happens a lot) or they cannot afford to train the cat, or cannot afford the time needed to monitor it closely.

 

[Derwind]

I would never, ever, never, never, ever, ever, never.... de-claw a cat. Its just wrong!

Also ear cropping and tail docking a dog is on the same level of wrong. Its fucking horrible and unnecessary.

 

[Dark Octave]

I did it to my cat, mostly to save the furniture because my wife (then girlfriend) insisted when we moved in together. I really, really regret it.

It hasn't had any impact on my cat's life and well-being, as far as I can tell. Her behavior didn't change. She's a 100% indoor cat. She's a sweetheart.

But I feel terrible that I couldn't manage with training and nail clipping alone. Instead I elected to mutilate her feet. Lots of people have figured out how to protect their possessions without cutting off parts of their cats' bodies, and unfortunately I could not.

And there you have it. Dude feels bad but still admits that it effects absolutely nothing for a house cat.

The debate should have stopped at this post, imo yet here we have people who purchase animals, purchase living things, trying to act like they have rights like human beings.

 

[blame space]

opiate do you have any pets?

 

[Opiate]

i think you might have your statistics mixed up or not associating them properly. The average life span of an outdoor STRAY cat is 3 to 4 years. Since we are speaking about cat ownership, that makes it not a stray cat. The life span of an outdoor-indoor cat average is only shaved by 2 to 3 years when compared to an exclusively indoor cat.

i looked at internet for this data, but it just seemed too logical, because many people have outdoor-indoor cats that live longer then 3 years.
http://www.vetinfo.com/indoor-outdoor-cat-life-expectancy.html

Thank you. This is very important information.

 

[Devolution]

And there you have it. Dude feels bad but still admits that it effects absolutely nothing for a house cat.

The debate should have stopped at this post, imo.

It does affect house cats. Nice cherry picking.

 

[senahorse]

How is cutting a cats balls off acceptable but declawing them "childish"?

One of these things is really not like the other. Cats will breed like rabbits left to their own devices, which causes far more problems than a cat with claws. One is done to be a responsible person, the other is done (in the vast majority of cases) to protect your furniture.

 

[Xpite]

talk about taking the easy way out to taking care of your pets.

you think you can just lock them in a bathroom and keep them from their right of running around and clawing shit and killing birds?





and why is it a necessary thing for an indoor cat to be able to do those things?

How is that taking the easy way out? He has things all around our place that we got for him to scratch, so I'm not taking away any of his rights.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

One of these things is really not like the other. Cats will breed like rabbits left to their own devices, which causes far more problems than a cat being declawed. One is done to be a responsible person, the other is done (in the vast majority of cases) to protect your furniture.

One is done mainly because people don't want to claim other cats, not as a social responsibility. In that regard both are very much the same.

 

[Opiate]

The disagreement is because there are so many cats without homes, let's do this so they can get in some homes.

Right, we live in a real world where ideals are not applicable.

Obviously in an ideal world not only would cats have no reason to be declawed, but they wouldn't have a reason to be neutered, either, and cats wouldn't kill any birds, either. Unless we feel a profound need to protect cats' toes but have no concern for birds lives, for some reason. Especially given that many birds are actually more intelligent than cats.

They should not however be arguing about how horrible it is to do to the cat, because it's cruel.

In these idealistic terms, surely eating any meat ever is even more cruel? We have now advanced nutrition such that it is perfectly possible to live as a vegan without notable dietary deficiencies. What about letting our cats outside to kill billions of birds?

 

[senahorse]

One is done mainly because people don't want to claim other cats, not as a social responsibility. In that regard both are very much the same.

But one will affect the quality of their lives and the other does not, in that regard they are not the same at all.

 

[siddx]

And there you have it. Dude feels bad but still admits that it effects absolutely nothing for a house cat.

The debate should have stopped at this post, imo yet here qwe have people who purchase animals, purchase living things, trying to act like they have rights like human beings.

Yes. Because one story on a message board clearly must end all discussion on the matter. Case closed your honor!

 

[Xpite]

Would you lock your kids in the bathroom too? That sounds terrifying.

We only put him in there for a few minutes and he has toys and stuff, all he's missing is our company. You were never sent to your room as a child?

 

[Dark Octave]

It does affect house cats. Nice cherry picking.

Great job breaking down how it effects house cats and changing my perspective.

 

[Jeels]

I will 100% advise against it,

Not once you mentioned the life of the cat in your OP. you just mentioned that they will stay indoors all the time. But what about the cat? how active will this cat's lifel be even if he/she will stay indoors all time? how big is the space for this cat? Would the cat have enough room to run at full speed? is their stairwell, she/he can dart off and run up and down? can the cat have "safe" place to hide (where no human can reach her.him) in this house, if she is threatened by visitors, loud noises etc.

Trust me when I say this: Cats will constantly remind themselves their entire life that their claws are missing every time they have the urge to act like...well.. a cat! jumping, pouncing, swatting etc.

Imagine that you are cat, you can leap vertically to great heights, well technically you should be able to, but guess what...you got no claws to jump and hold on to what you need to hold on to get to places...

I have a luxury to live in a home with a fairly sized yard (backyard). My (front paws declawed) cat is semi-indoors cat, she loves to go and play in the yard, chase rabbits, birds, mice etc. clean her teeth with grass, lie in the shade of thick bushes, like she was some tiger in the jungle...Cats love the outdoors, cat's are not the most docile and domestic pets, they carry the genes of their bigger, wild, feline counterparts, they need space to run, jump, claw, stalk/hunt prey and exercise... Having said this, my cat really never saw the outdoors the first two years of her life, she had to understand that she can't just wonder off, and thankfully so far (almost six years) she doesn't wonder off too far from the house and is always near by.

I mean I kind of get why people with small apartments want cats, but at the end of the day, having a declawed cat cooped up in a tiny apartment with very few windows all the time will not give that cat the happiest or even an ideal life. depends how good of an owner you are, and what breed the cat is,m but chances are that cat will be miserable and overweight/obese in no time and have health issues about 4-5 years into her/his life. It's perfectly fine to have cats indoors all the time, but those cats still need space to run, jump climb stairs, scratching posts etc. and have a happy and active life.

Even if indoor cats live a "longer" life, the question is how healthy and happy those cats live the last 3-4 years of their life indoors before dying?

Most old/dying indoors cats I've encountered have been cats that suffer from serious heath issues, severe pain and suffering, immobility, blindness and cost their owners crazy amount of vet bills.

There really is no shame in a cat dying out in the wild 3-4 years earlier than his/her "time" by the hands of some wild animal (Raccoon, dog, weasel, Opossum etc.) because that is their nature, they are indeed wild creatures that hunt or be hunted. ( I had a cat that was killed by an opossum) They probably wouldn't want it any other way: granted they still have their claws to at least defend themselves and fight to their (inevitable) death with that said wild animal.

Not sure what you are talking about at all. Cat's do not change their habits after being declawed. You have no idea if they can "feel" that their claws are gone. My cat is constantly doing all the pouncing, jumping around and whatever he likes. Mind you, he is young.

If they are wild animals, they shouldn't be pets in the first place. Let them all be strays. I don't understand your argument at all.

 

[Slygmous]

and why is it a necessary thing for an indoor cat to be able to do those things?

They're climbing animals, it's in their nature. It's not like everything disintegrates the moment a cat's claw touches it, they can climb furniture without destroying it.
And they pick up stuff all the time, have you ever played with a cat?

 

[blame space]

opiate, do any animals deserve to live?

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

But one will not affect the quality of their lives and the other does not, in that regard they are not the same at all.

Can you say that definitively?

I'm not a cat owner, but if declawing were as detrimental to the livelihood of a cat as you say I think this wouldn't be such a disputed issue.

 

[Devolution]

Right, we live in a real world where ideals are not applicable.

Obviously in an ideal world not only would cats have no reason to be declawed, but they wouldn't have a reason to be neutered, either, and cats wouldn't kill any birds, either. Unless we feel a profound need to protect cats' toes but have no concern for birds lives, for some reason. Especially given that many birds are actually more intelligent than cats.

These are strawmans opiate.

Great job breaking down how it effects house cats and changing my perspective.

I already did as some others maybe read the thread?

 

[blame space]

strawmen even

 

[Opiate]

These are strawmans opiate.

Okay, that's possible. Explain. Please also note this edit:

They should not however be arguing about how horrible it is to do to the cat, because it's cruel.

In these idealistic terms, surely eating any meat ever is even more cruel? We have now advanced nutrition such that it is perfectly possible to live as a vegan without notable dietary deficiencies. What about letting our cats outside to kill billions of birds?

 

[Dark Octave]

opiate, do any animals deserve to live?

lol Really?

 

[oneils]

The disagreement is because there are so many cats without homes, let's do this so they can get in some homes. They should not however be arguing about how horrible it is to do to the cat, because it's cruel. It is indeed vanity not just cost. If you take on some pets you have to accept some consequences, financial consequences are a part of life with pets.

I'd say pet abandonment is different than pet "homelessness" (the term opiate used). Cats are abandoned because their owners shouldn't have cats. To me it's that simple. The answer isn't simply to declaw them, IMO (don't mean to suggest you think that is the answer).

The answer is to educate the owner. I know that the AHS is put in an impossible situation when confronted with this and they do the best they can. I get that. They should be trying everything first before declawing. I'm just not sure how many people actually make that effort though. Sounds like an easy way to head off criticism from the vet when asked to perform this procedure "oh you won't do it? Well I guess I have to put him down now cause I can't take care of him otherwise."

 

[blame space]

lol Really?

uh, yeah, really.

 

[Devolution]

Okay, that's possible. Explain.

What does the bird population have to do with a surgery that's unnecessary except to preserve stuff?

No idea why you're bringing up eating meat now either.

 

[WickedCobra03]

If I am allowed to take a swipe at a cat with a crummy attitude with a metal rake, then deal, they don't have to be declawed, otherwise they are usually pretty miserable. Cats with claws tear up your house (even with cat posts and crap), ect.

 

[Rektash]

I sure would feel like a dick declawing a cat. I mean, come on. Strip that poor fucker off his only way to defend himself against pretty much anything that isn't a fly? Even if the cat never leaves your house you still are crippeling it, just so that it is more convenient for you. If that doesn't sound perverse to you ... I don't know what does. Having animals isn't about convinience. If you don't want to compromise don't get a freaking animal.

 

[kurahador]

opiate, do any animals deserve to live?

Only if it's under his terms based on the posts I've seen.

 

[filler]

We only put him in there for a few minutes and he has toys and stuff, all he's missing is our company. You were never sent to your room as a child?

You think I was raised in Guantanamo? My parents chose to actually raise me instead of locking me away like some criminal!

 

[Opiate]

I'd say pet abandonment is different than pet "homelessness" (the term opiate used). Cats are abandoned because their owners shouldn't have cats. To me it's that simple. The answer isn't simply to declaw them, IMO (don't mean to suggest you think that is the answer).

The answer is to educate the owner. I know that the AHS is put in an impossible situation when confronted with this and they do the best they can. I get that. They should be trying everything first before declawing. I'm just not sure how many people actually make that effort though. Sounds like an easy way to head off criticism from the vet when asked to perform this procedure "oh you won't do it? Well I guess I have to put him down now cause I can't take care of him otherwise."

It does appear at the very least that many people seem to declaw their cats automatically, because they assume "they're supposed to" and not because it is valuable.

I also think, though, that there are many people who let their cats outdoors because they think they're supposed to when it is often a terrible idea both for the cat and for the surrounding environment.

I also think many of the complaints about cruelty to cats should logically apply to all sorts of other scenarios we don't apply them to.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I sure would feel like a dick declawing a cat. I mean, come on. Strip that poor fucker off his only way to defend himself against pretty much anything that isn't a fly? Even if the cat never leaves your house you still are crippeling it, just so that it is more convenient for you. If that doesn't sound perverse to you ... I don't know what does. Having animals isn't about convinience. If you don't want to compromise don't get a freaking animal.

Spaying/neutering a cat is just as much of a compromise.

 

[MrToughPants]

Not sure what you are talking about at all. Cat's do not change their habits after being declawed. You have no idea if they can "feel" that their claws are gone. My cat is constantly doing all the pouncing, jumping around and whatever he likes. Mind you, he is young.

If they are wild animals, they shouldn't be pets in the first place. Let them all be strays. I don't understand your argument at all.

I don't think Johnny Shower has ever owned a cat.

I also read his post in Zach Galafiniakis' voice from Between 2 Ferns.

Cats don't lose their "super cat powers" when they are declawed. They can still grip shit with their paws...they can still hunt and kill easily...climb etc...

 

[Nappuccino]

We've had 4 cats (that I can remember) growing up. I'm pretty sure my mom had all of them get their front paws declawed.

3 of them had no real issue with this.

the last one turned into a righteous bitch and took years for her to warm up to people in general (she was fine with my sister and I).

I think it's something that, in the majority of cases, no lasting impact will be had (especially if it's a 100% indoor cat) but there is still a good chance it'll tweak your cat's personality for the worse.

 

[Jenov]

Sounds like your best solution is to just adopt one that is already declawed.

 

[Opiate]

What does the bird population have to do with a surgery that's unnecessary except to preserve stuff?

Declawing a cat makes it so the cat kills less animals, even if it's let outside. If you let your cats outside with claws, then you are greatly assisting its ability to kill lots (And lots) of birds, which presumably have a right to life, as well.

No idea why you're bringing up eating meat now either.

Because it's obviously cruel to the animal, and frequently is done for very superficial reasons; people choose to eat a hamburger instead of a salad because they like the taste better and not because they actually need the specific nutrients in a hamburger in any real way.

So if you're a vegan, obviously you object to both and your position is coherent. But if you want to make the argument that cutting off a cat's toes is cruel -- and for what are often relatively superficial reasons -- then surely you also object to eating animals -- which, in the first world, is typically done for superficial reasons, too (i.e. you just prefer the taste of meat over beans, even though beans have lots of protein too).

I am asking for logical consistency, or, alternatively, asking why those positions are different. I feel we apply different standards to cats, both because 1) they are cute, and 2) we keep them as pets and actually see them alive, unlike the cow which we never see and only see in delicious hamburger form.

 

[Devolution]

You're not going to get consistency when it comes to pets vs animals I don't consider pets. Plus there is a quite a difference between how I treat animals under my care and what the hell I can do about how they treat animals en masse in processing them to be meat.

 

[Opiate]

You're not going to get consistency when it comes to pets vs animals I don't consider pets.

That's not logical, though. Being considered a "pet animal" shouldn't logically impart any special rights.

 

[senahorse]

Can you say that definitively?

I'm not a cat owner, but if declawing where as detrimental to the livelihood of a cat as you say I think this wouldn't be such a disputed issue.

Bad choice of words, it's not so much detrimental (unless their are complications which the surgery, which certainly happens) to their lives as such but it does disrupt their activities, like digging, climbing, marking (can be a combination of scratching/scenting). Then there are the other possible effects:

After effects
Medical drawbacks to declawing include pain, infection, tissue necrosis (tissue death), lameness, and back pain. Removing claws changes the way a cat's foot meets the ground and can cause pain similar to wearing an uncomfortable pair of shoes. There can also be a regrowth of improperly removed claws, nerve damage, and bone spurs.

For several days after surgery, shredded newspaper is typically used in the litter box to prevent litter from irritating declawed feet. This unfamiliar litter substitute, accompanied by pain when scratching in the box, may lead cats to stop using the litter box. Some cats may become biters because they no longer have their claws for defense.

http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/cats/tips/declawing.html


Also here is a good read on cats and scratching:

It has long been assumed that when cats scratch objects with their front paws that they are sharpening their claws. It turns out that this is only a secondary reason. Research on cat behavior suggests that the major reason for this behavior is communication. By roughing up the bark of a tree (or the leg of your favorite chair) the cat is letting other cats or people know where she is and what she is up to.

Cats tend to pick a small number of conspicuous objects in their environments to scratch such as trees, fence posts, the corner of the couch, etc., and return to them repeatedly. This is why the tree next door looks so scratched up and why your cat may find it difficult to leave your couch alone. The scratched surface leaves a highly visible mark that can be easily seen by other cats. In addition, cats have scent glands in their paws so that when they make scratching movements they leave odor cues that the cats can smell. The fact that cats leave scent marks by making scratching movements may be the reason that cats will continue to try to scratch objects even after they have been declawed. Declawed cats may still be leaving scent marks on objects they scratch.

More here: http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/article-applied-behavior/why-cats-scratch-things

It seems (certainly not an expert on the subject) that they lose more of the abilities when they are declawed, rather than taking away the ability to procreate. Which I guess is cruel to a degree. However we have a couple of cats from the same litter, male and female, I am not sure much good would come from letting them breed together, they don't have the smarts to understand the negatives of inbreeding.

 

[Devolution]

That's not logical, though.

What do you honestly expect of each individual opiate? To change the meat packing industry or not put their own cat through an unnecessary and damaging procedure?

 

[filler]

They're all a bunch of hypocrites, Opi! It's perfectly reasonable to declaw a house cat.

 

[Dark Octave]

uh, yeah, really.

What kind of question was that? Who wants to see all animals die?

You should have asked him if he thinks cats deserve to live.

Much better question, imo.

 

[Harry Potter]

I love these GAF filter threads.

 

[Opiate]

What do you honestly expect of each individual opiate? To change the meat packing industry or not put their own cat through an unnecessary and damaging procedure?

You at least have the power to choose what happens to your own personal cat, and you at least have the power to not eat meat. You at least have the power to stop your personal cat from killing lots of birds, and so forth.

 

[triplestation]

Beans aren't a complete protein !!!!!

 

[Xpite]

You think I was raised in Guantanamo? My parents chose to actually raise me instead of locking me away like some criminal!

I never said that I agree with sending a child to their room, it was just an analogy. With children you can sit them down and explain to them why what they did was wrong, you can't do that with a cat. I was just giving an alternative to spraying them with water.

 

[Opiate]

I want to thank the many people who pointed to (and cited) lots of information on the medical complications of declawing a cat; I can see now that declawing is less applicable in general and is appropriate in far fewer cases than I had expected. I also want to give particular thanks to bangai-o for correcting my misinformation about the lifespan of outdoor cats (as distinct from stray cats).

 

[blame space]

What kind of question was that? Who wants to see all animals die?

You should have asked him if he thinks cats deserve to live.

Much better question, imo.

He already answered that.

 

[kurahador]

That's not logical, though. Being considered a "pet animal" shouldn't logically impart any special rights.

Killing animal is not the same as torturing them or denied of something they naturally wants to do. The later is worse.

 

[Devolution]

You at least have the power to choose what happens to your own personal cat, and you at least have the power to not eat meat. You at least have the power to stop your personal cat from killing lots of birds, and so forth.

What if I don't consider raising animals without mistreatment and simply killing them as humanely as possible for me to eat as unethical? That means I can't find a surgery that maims cats cruel? K.