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Declawing cats
- Thread starter Opiate
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Ravensmash
Member
Why do you think that the world is made of absolutes or in black and white? It is possible to be between extremes without being affixed to one end of a very wide spectrum.
.la1n
Member
I have never had to declaw a cat personally, my girlfriend chose to declaw one of her cats. I am not sure how I feel about it. It appears to be a pretty simple procedure and I don't see why it would be a hot issue compared to say reproductive surgery. I am not going to tell people who have declawed their cat they are horrible owners / don't care about their animal. I do not think that is a fair assessment to make.
oneils
Member
So to some people, the utility of the cat will decrease if they are unable to declaw them? I see no evidence for this. Absolutely none. Where are the surveys that explain this? How is this a logical conclusion? Apply a general principle to every single problem?
Your ultimate outcome is what? Market equilibrium?
If so, how about this, control the supply - not the demand. The problem in NA (from what you say) seems to be a problem of oversupply. Increasing demand by making declawing an option is a red herring. There is too much supply to begin with. Declawing does nothing to solve that problem. In that sense, it is unnecessary.
MemoryHumanity
Member
That is absolutely what I'm trying to avoid. I am trying to show other gray-area examples where most people consider animal mutilation okay, and comparing that to the situation of declawing.
Let me repeat that: my example was specifically and consciously intended to show other gray area examples in an attempt to show why cat declawing is a gray area, too. Eating meat is not a black and white issue either; many people in first world countries are now vegans, and it is possible to live and thrive without meat with moderate inconvenience.
I must state how odd I think it is that you would accuse me of being black and white here, when I have made careful pains to point out the pros and cons of declawing, and to repeatedly state that declawing should be a case by case basis (and as of now, at least in the US, is almost certainly over-prescribed). By contrast, most people disagreeing with me are saying that declawing is always wrong under all circumstances. I would strongly argue that if anyone is suffering from "black and white" syndrome, it is not I.
No, the utility does not change. The price does. That is the problem. We weren't discussing utility -- if marginal utility remains constant and prices rise, less people will be able justify the purchase.
Yes, absolutely, and I think this is something we can both agree on. The ideal would be this: 1) every cat has a loving home, and 2) every responsible person who wants a cat has one.
I definitely agree that this is a good choice, but my point would be that we aren't there yet, at least in the US. I also hope that as we advance lots of other technologies will develop which could make the entire argument obsolete. If, for example, we could find a way to remove the human inconvenience of cat claws without actually removing the cat claws, then everyone wins. I don't mean to suggest that such a technology is right on the horizon, but given how fast humanity is advancing there's no telling what will be developed in the coming decades.
I also definitely agree that a world where declawing is unnecssary is ideal. At least in the US, we aren't there yet, so we must make choices and pick the least-bad option. The least-bad option will probably vary on a case by case basis.
Declawing is only necessary in a world where selfish pet owners value their furniture and risk of the occasional scratched wrist above the welfare of an animal.
Essentially all cats in my life have been outdoor cats.
I don't see bird /rodent death as something negative either, as rodent death is typically positive, while bird death is quite neutral, to me. I don't think declawing an outdoors cat is reasonable, since it removes their defence and rids it of the possibility of killing rodents. Furniture is typically not a problem for an outdoors cat, but I can see it as a problem for an indoors cat. Declawing an indoors cat is not unreasonable.
I don't see bird /rodent death as something negative either, as rodent death is typically positive, while bird death is quite neutral, to me. I don't think declawing an outdoors cat is reasonable, since it removes their defence and rids it of the possibility of killing rodents. Furniture is typically not a problem for an outdoors cat, but I can see it as a problem for an indoors cat. Declawing an indoors cat is not unreasonable.
Can Crusher
Banned
Ugh... never even heard of this before. Searched around in google and, man I just gotta straight up disagree with the notion that this shit is ok.
Why not just cut the "fingernails"? Like we do to ourselves.... That's what I do with my cat... keep em shorter ya know.
Why not just cut the "fingernails"? Like we do to ourselves.... That's what I do with my cat... keep em shorter ya know.
My grandmother does this with her indoors cats. It appears to not work perfectly, but you have to do it quite often.
MemoryHumanity
Member
oneils
Member
In some countries, feral cats are considered vermin (I think the UK is an example) along with the rodents. I think it was common to give landowners the right to kill them by shooting them or trapping and euthanizing them. Nowadays, trap-neuter-release is normally the method used to control the cat population.
In some jurisdictions, people are having debates about whether domesticated cats should be allowed outside at all.
I love Kitties
Member
I would never declaw a cat. It's just terrible.
Can Crusher
Banned
Well I would say I do it once a month, maybe twice here and there. If you get him his own stuff to scratch, it will work great.
I mean it's part of having a cat you know, this declawing shit is nuts. Don't have a cat.
To add on to this (in case it was missed in my earlier edit), house cats are classified as an invasive species in the United States. Which means that US cat owners are deliberately introducing an invasive species in to their local ecosystem when they let their cat outdoors.
I need to go out now (again, trying to make it clear that I'm not just walking away from a conversation I started), but I want to emphasize again that I am not suggesting that declawing is good or should be practiced whimsically. I also want to repeat that I've learned quite a bit from this discussion -- I have learned that declawing is often over-prescribed and how the long term negative consequences for the cat's health need to be considered, even if they remain indoors.
D
Deleted member 20920
Unconfirmed Member
If one wants to argue, there is nothing moral or immoral about the act of consuming food for the sake of keeping oneself alive. People eat because we have to. In an ideal world, what humans can work towards is to keep our animal rearing and killing practices as painless as possible and to not exploit animals just for a certain body part (like shark's fin and foie gras). Work towards respecting the animals that we're killing for eating and make sure we don't waste. This is the ideal situation that people should work towards. Eat the right things at the right amount, without causing unnecessary harm to what we're killing.
The very idea of taking an animal as a pet necessitates the need for the owner to give it special privileges. You've taken upon yourself the act of caring for another living thing. Why shouldn't one provide the best they can for this pet? If you're unable to provide it food and care without having to compromise its wellbeing (i.e. keep it without removing its claws or giving the bare minimum care), then maybe this potential pet owner should not be having a pet anyway.
I think it just means your parents are unsuitable owners. You either have to train the cat, or lose the furniture. Or not have the cat at all.
I really don't get your argument about how not allowing or approving declawing means many many people won't adopt cats. In my opinion, people who are unwilling to do the basic nail trimming or training should not have cats. Or should not worry about their scratched furnitures. You have to change your lifestyle. Back when I first had cats my family had a hard time trying to get them to stop scratching the leather sofas. In the end we decided it would be best to switch to wooden couches that comes with cushions and the problem goes away. We also try to cut their claws every now and then and bring them to the groomers. Pets are a huge investment. Don't have them if you can't bear the cost.
This.
You keep arguing that declawing a cat and giving it a home is better than the cat not having one at all. To be honest I rather let the cat continue being a stray. There's a reason why we try to find suitable homes for animals and children. We don't just stuff them to whoever who wants to adopt pets or children and then say "oh well it's ok if he or she doesn't have fingers from now on. At least they have a home".
Capital_Five
Member
Would you rather: Be homeless and fight for survival and food every day or have your fingers cut off but have a home, a butler and all the food you need but not be able to go outside even though you love it?
Huh, I see. I live in northern Sweden, and letting the cats be outdoors is considered normal. There are at least 6 or so domesticated cats that I recognise near my parents' house. Cats that only live 2 or 3 houses away.
SillyEskimo
Member
He did this so much better than I did.
This.
Declawing your cat is just plain cruel, for reasons stated many many times in this thread. The fact that it's banned by law in most of europe makes me a very happy camper
InfiniteBento
Member
I never have declawed my cats nor prevented them from having babies.
I let them be and train them well.
It's not necessary to me. If my cats did get pregnant, I'd end up with a shit ton of kittens but always found incredible friends to take them.
Currently I only have 1 male cat and he is not cut nor declawed. I believe it's cruel but that's just me.
I let them be and train them well.
It's not necessary to me. If my cats did get pregnant, I'd end up with a shit ton of kittens but always found incredible friends to take them.
Currently I only have 1 male cat and he is not cut nor declawed. I believe it's cruel but that's just me.
freenudemacusers
Member
Ryaaan you have a strange definition of backseat modding, but please don't go nvidiot whore on us.
Spring-Loaded
Member
I wouldn't advocate for or try to convince others against declawing their cats. However, the only pros/cons that should be taken into consideration are the ones that affect the cat's well-being. There's simply no way the cat absolutely destroying furniture would affect whether I could living in my home since I own my own furniture. I would not let myself be sliced up to the point my health suffers from it. That's about all the problems it would cause.
Whether cats in shelters are/aren't taken home based on their claws seems like a purely theoretical issue. Can't imagine a considerable number of people's decisions hinging on whether a cat has claws. If there's an overabundance of cats suffering in a gulag, it's almost definitely for other reasons.
At worst, declawing is mutilation of animal you're supposed to be caring for and the cat's feelings about the removal of those claws cannot be gauged. Logically
D) you'd err on teh side of caution if you're taking care of this cat, even if you yourself have no emotional connection to it. A best, the cat isn't bothered by the declawing (something we can't know) and your furniture is less likely to be scratched up.
If your only concern is with maximizing benefit for cats/animals everywhere, get involved with humane societies and donate to animal care funds. If you care about your cat, then treat it like a living being and place more importance on it than of inanimate objects. Even if you don't care about the cat, don't declaw it. Get your lazy ass up, train it and/or scratch-proof your furniture.
Whether cats in shelters are/aren't taken home based on their claws seems like a purely theoretical issue. Can't imagine a considerable number of people's decisions hinging on whether a cat has claws. If there's an overabundance of cats suffering in a gulag, it's almost definitely for other reasons.
At worst, declawing is mutilation of animal you're supposed to be caring for and the cat's feelings about the removal of those claws cannot be gauged. Logically
D) you'd err on teh side of caution if you're taking care of this cat, even if you yourself have no emotional connection to it. A best, the cat isn't bothered by the declawing (something we can't know) and your furniture is less likely to be scratched up. If your only concern is with maximizing benefit for cats/animals everywhere, get involved with humane societies and donate to animal care funds. If you care about your cat, then treat it like a living being and place more importance on it than of inanimate objects. Even if you don't care about the cat, don't declaw it. Get your lazy ass up, train it and/or scratch-proof your furniture.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Just put on cat claw gloves instead of declawing them.
Heck, affix them to your cats claws with safe glue if you really can't risk them clawing indoors/outdoors.
Heck, affix them to your cats claws with safe glue if you really can't risk them clawing indoors/outdoors.
SillyEskimo
Member
This is the biggest image fail I think I have ever seen in my life.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Oh, you still see the code. After a while, you stop seeing it. You start seeing tabby, Siamese, bobtail, manx...
ambientmystic
Member
I really love these Opiate threads.
His ability to pick out, analyse and deconstruct every single argument thrown at him by almost every member of pet owning-GAF against his position is such a joy to experience.
It really helps that he has the ability to articulate himself well in these threads too.
I've been reading this thread the whole time with a big smile on my face. Any other lesser gaffer who attempts this thread would be talked down and not dealt with seriously. You've forced pet-owning-GAF to engage you properly, and made sure that the topic is discussed in a highly rational manner. We need more mod sanctioned threads such as these where potentially sensitive matters can be broached without the usual drive by trolling and emotionalism displayed by invested members.
Thanks Opiate.
His ability to pick out, analyse and deconstruct every single argument thrown at him by almost every member of pet owning-GAF against his position is such a joy to experience.
It really helps that he has the ability to articulate himself well in these threads too.
I've been reading this thread the whole time with a big smile on my face. Any other lesser gaffer who attempts this thread would be talked down and not dealt with seriously. You've forced pet-owning-GAF to engage you properly, and made sure that the topic is discussed in a highly rational manner. We need more mod sanctioned threads such as these where potentially sensitive matters can be broached without the usual drive by trolling and emotionalism displayed by invested members.
Thanks Opiate.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Did Opiate take cat gloves/guards into consideration?
Price wise, it might be marginally more expensive than surgery to remove the claws, but you do not physically alter the cat in such a manner that might alter its behaviour for the negative. It also doesn't cause as much pain to the cat (I am assuming that declawed cats feel pain post-surgery).
Price wise, it might be marginally more expensive than surgery to remove the claws, but you do not physically alter the cat in such a manner that might alter its behaviour for the negative. It also doesn't cause as much pain to the cat (I am assuming that declawed cats feel pain post-surgery).
The Lamonster
Member
There is no reason to do it. If they scratch up your shit, get a scratching post. Train them.
Removing their claws is not akin to neutering. I've read that declawing a cat affects them for the rest of their life - the tips of their fingers are surgically removed and every time they use their hands, they feel it. Jumping down off a couch hurts. Ever hear of phantom limbs? Same principle here.
It's torture, and it's unnecessary.
Removing their claws is not akin to neutering. I've read that declawing a cat affects them for the rest of their life - the tips of their fingers are surgically removed and every time they use their hands, they feel it. Jumping down off a couch hurts. Ever hear of phantom limbs? Same principle here.
It's torture, and it's unnecessary.
Vestal
Junior Member
yup not to mention that its their only form of defense be it to lunge at an attacker or to use them to climb and escape.
That's just like you opinion man.
I wish I had done this my cat has fucked my leather sofa up. And my legs.
Ps I was going to do it but I was too scared to do it when I realised they have blood in the nail if you go too far down.
Yep, a big fat FUCK YOU to anyone who does it for selfish reasons.
If you declaw and you indoor cat manages to get outside, they are defenseless as a toddler. You can't treat them like independent animals anymore. I would never declaw my cats because although I love them, they need to be able to survive in a world without me just in case.
I don't think there is any reason to declaw. There are plenty of options available.
I don't think there is any reason to declaw. There are plenty of options available.
YouEnjoyMySelf
Banned
Pretty much. I would never, ever even think of doing it to my cat. She's a sweety and have never clawed anyone and only uses them on her post. Some people are just stupid/lazy and think taking out the claws will "save their couch".
Is this a fucking joke? What kind of PETA bullshit is this? Bird/rodent death in America? ROFL.
Opiate is almost mechanical in nature. Almost.
Can Crusher
Banned
This is actually one of the few instances where I see Opiate operating from a false premise.
At the end of the day declawing is human self service taken to a point where the balance scale is non existent. Essentially the conclusion is that everything needs to adapt to our own comfort zone, and that is a human right.
It's not unlike physically modifying an animal to the point where it presents no danger of bodily harm. A moral debate around it will be short, as it presents a scenario where everything turns around our comfort zone when the idea of co-living with an animal is about leaving your comfort zone.
Because if it's not, then there's no limit and a scenario where we genetically modify pets to essentially become living and breathing stuffed toys will become an accepted reality. I agree that compromises should be made, and a balance struck, but declawing is none of that.
Cats kept indoors are going to live nearly 8 years longer on average. I don't think the cat is able to wager weather cutting 60% of it's life expectancy to wander the streets is worth it. If I adopt a cat, the cat's health is my responsibility.
NinjaBoiX
Member
Pretty much.
Or, if you are so worried about the occasional scratch or bit of damage to your carpets, get a different pet.
My claw having cat attacking me at the command of Gordon Ramsey:
http://youtu.be/01_elGR0zbk
http://youtu.be/01_elGR0zbk
Bit of confusion in the post you are replying to I think as it refers to the UK and USA without being specific.
The UK is the same for cats - most cats are outdoor cats, and there's no possibility or discussion of making that illegal. Declawing cats would be considered nutty and cruel.
The poster was talking about *feral* cats which is completely different - non-domesticated cats are a whole different kettle of fish from my understanding,
And that matters how? It's not as if each nation went out and held a vote on declawing cats.
Skel1ingt0n
I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
We have three cats - two from the animal shelter and one from the street that we found with a broken leg.
These cats have the best lives in the world. They're incredibly happy, and we treat them like kings. They get all the food they want, all the water they could ever need. They can jump on our furniture and mosey to wherever they want, whenever they want. They typically fall asleep on the bed with us each night, purring and rubbing against us. It's not uncommon for me to wake up with a cat nestled in the sheets next to me, totally content.
We got our cats declawed (front only) to protect our furniture. We did the laser stuff, and they felt fine after 48hrs. Two days of misery - and they'll live exceptionally wonderful lives till the day they finally go. They're safe. They're warm. They're fed. And they're loved more than they ever could dream. None of my cats miss their front claws - they have no need for them and it doesn't hurt them at all since the initial procedure.
These cats have the best lives in the world. They're incredibly happy, and we treat them like kings. They get all the food they want, all the water they could ever need. They can jump on our furniture and mosey to wherever they want, whenever they want. They typically fall asleep on the bed with us each night, purring and rubbing against us. It's not uncommon for me to wake up with a cat nestled in the sheets next to me, totally content.
We got our cats declawed (front only) to protect our furniture. We did the laser stuff, and they felt fine after 48hrs. Two days of misery - and they'll live exceptionally wonderful lives till the day they finally go. They're safe. They're warm. They're fed. And they're loved more than they ever could dream. None of my cats miss their front claws - they have no need for them and it doesn't hurt them at all since the initial procedure.
How would you like to have your fingers removed? It's not an 'opinion'. It's barbaric.
Im guessing you have the gift of understanding cat speech and they let you know they didnt miss the claws right?
Guess no one else needs to worry about it anymore. Skel1ingt0n's figured it out yo
I would like to have my nails removed they do my head in. To be honest I thought he was talking about clipping them didn't realise you could have there claws took off. I did feel like a jerk for getting him neutered but I didn't want him pissing in the house is that wrong too?
Spaying/neutering benefits the cat.
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