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[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

I would want my cat capable of pulling this off:

You see, this simple gif pretty much sums up why it's a terrible idea to declaw your cat:

The cat in that gif very well may be spayed or neutered, but no way in hell he or she could be declawed.

I see lotta people who are for declawing in this thread just focus on the painful part of the procedure...the pain goes away after a short while, sure it does, but... What also goes away with the pain is a cat's ability to be agile, to be a cat at his/her full potential, to have the physical confidence the animal is genetically designed to have, that goes away after the seventieth attempt at failing to leap at a simple short 3 foot tall furniture.

The cat will eventually give up trying to do things nature intended for her to do...when she realizes, it's just "not working" after a few attempts...But the problem is, she's an instinctive animal, she forgets her limitations that have been forced upon her.... she will constantly try to push her limits only to meet with failure that she had nothing to do with.

I witness this everyday with me six year old declawed cat, she loves to play with me, I hide behind the (old, basement) couch (that she is allowed to claw), and she likes to just stand on her hind legs and support herself with one of her front paw's on the couch's arm rest and swat at me with the other.

She fools herself in thinking she can do this, but every time she tries to support herself with her front paws, she slips and drop back on her fours, then she just pauses and quits playing, like a disappointed, sad child that gives up and just goes and sits in the corner.... This is kind of cringe worthy to witness, I feel terrible for the poor animal , but this is the card the poor thing is dealt for the rest of her life, she cannot be as active and do the things mother nature intended her do, because of some greedy cunt at the vet six years ago that wanted to make an extra 150 bucks that night...

Now before you tell me that "I have a declawed cat and she/he can jump and get up on a six foot tall walls no problem, so I have no idea wtf are you talking about." ( my cat can also hop on a 3.5 foot tall wall (window pane) no problem)

You damn well know what I am talking about, and what I'm talking about is that cat can clearly do a lot more that he or she can right now, but can't because she's missing her claws.. end of story.

 

[dan2026]

I'm shocked the circumcision debate hasn't cropped up yet.

I'll be honest its frighteningly close when you think about it.

Unnecessary surgery on a creature that can't argue or defend themselves against it.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

I'm shocked the circumcision debate hasn't cropped up yet.

Sounds like it just did!

 

[Feep]

Sounds like it just did!

I laughed at your username

 

[Jack Remington]

I will repeat this, as well: I think many people viscerally object to declawing both because cats are cute and because cats are inside our homes living with us. By contrast, pigs bred for consumption are not as cute and live and die in a tiny box somewhere in Texas. The treatment of cats has a more immediate impact on us emotionally.

Even if some part of our objection to declawing is based on a cat's "cuteness", how does that preclude stating that declawing is unethical?

 

[Lufiaddict]

I would want my cat capable of pulling this off:

I'd say the claws are as important to cats as the thumbs are important to humans. Is there a consensus on dethumbing humans?

 

[ZaCH3000]

So doing anything to your pet is ok because its your property?
You can't be serious?

To you and the three posters taking my position out of context, please read the full post before getting outraged.

I think the procedure is the same as neutering your pet, which is a procedure that benefits the pet owner with convenience to no benefit for the pet. You can't view one as humane and the other as in-humane because both surgeries exist to make it easier for the pet owner to enjoy their pet.

 

[Opiate]

Even if some part of our objection to declawing is based on a cat's "cuteness", how does that preclude stating that declawing is unethical?

It doesn't. I want to make that clear again: I am not arguing that declawing is good and right in all situations.

So in this particular part of the discussion (The thread is now pages long), I am not suggesting declawing is kind hearted. Instead, I'm suggesting there are lots of unkind things we do to lots of animals all the time just because we find it convenient. We often eat animals because they are tasty and not because we technically need the protein; we buy cheap electronic products that produce tons of pollution and runoff which kills millions of fish every year, just so we can get a slightly cheaper price; we allow our cats (an invasive species) to go outside and slaughter native birds by the billions every year, and in most cases those kills are not for consumption.

We cause real harm to fish and whales and pigs and chickens and rats and cows and pigeons and crows and all sorts of other animals because it's easier for us to eat McDonalds and buy cheaper iPhones and let our cats and dogs outside. Again, I'm more than fine if you are a person who significantly limits their meat consumption and tries hard to prevent their pets from killing native species and is conscious of buying products which don't pollute, and so forth. That is a completely consistent position that you should proud of.

My problem, in this case, is that many people seem very inconsistent in their application of animal rights; many people seem particularly and especially concerned with Cats' feet, and much less concerned with many of the other ways we hurt or maim or even kill animals because we find it easier and more convenient for us.

 

[InfiniteBento]

I'd say the claws are as important to cats as the thumbs are important to humans. Is there a consensus on dethumbing humans?

I agree. I'm not for declawing at all.

 

[KlotePino]

Opiate, on the point of the bird/rodent population, is there any evidence or research that suggests that cats imbalance the population of these animals? I see no problem with them killing rats/birds as long as they don't negatively influence balance in the food chain which I've seen no concrete evidence on yet.

 

[Lufiaddict]

My problem, in this case, is that many people seem very inconsistent in their application of animal rights; many people seem particularly and especially concerned with Cats' feet, and much less concerned with many of the other ways we hurt or maim or even kill animals because we find it easier and more convenient for us.

Yes, this is a problem. I suppose people feel less concerned about the mistreatment of other animals because the responsibility is diluted along the chains of productions, whereas the fate of their cat is directly under their own responsibility.

 

[BattleMonkey]

If it's an indoors only cat, I don't see an issue. Some folks don't have the option either, they have to have a declawed cat or they can't stay where they want to live. Rather someone adopt that cat than it being left behind and getting put down.

 

[Opiate]

Opiate, on the point of the bird/rodent population, is there any evidence or research that suggests that cats imbalance the population of these animals? I see no problem with them killing rats/birds as long as they don't negatively influence balance in the food chain which I've seen no concrete evidence on yet.

Yes, there is.

http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2011/01/11/sports/nh3368426.txt
http://naturalplanetmagazine.com/2013/02/feline-framed-are-cats-driving-our-wildlife-extinct/

And the article relating to the US specifically again:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cats-and-bird-populations

“Cats are a nonnative species,” reminds Marra, adding that they often target native species and can transform places that would normally harbor many young birds into “sinks that drain birds from neighboring populations.” As a result of this ongoing predation, many environmentalists and animal lovers think cats should stay inside. “The big message is responsible pet ownership,” Marra says. He acknowledges that feral cats may be the bigger problem, but pet cats still catch as many as two billion wild animals a year.

 

[F#A#Oo]

Declawing procedure. If you're still fine with declawing a cat after watching this, eat a dick

why!!!!!!

 

[TommyT]

Very interesting thread. Here my anecdotal input:

Growing up, we had an indoor/outdoor cat that wasn't declawed. We didn't have an issue with it screwing up any furniture yet at the same time the cat never seemed to have the desire to sharpen it's claws whilst inside the house.

When I first met my now wife, she had a cat that was quite young, yet not young enough to be considered a kitten. Her pleather furniture was just full of holes and used as a scratching post daily. When we decided to move in together we ended up getting her declawed. Our current furniture isn't AS bad but isn't like it was when we got it (her back claws still do a number). She makes remarks about how her (the cat's) paws aren't cute anymore. There are quite a few other little things here and there that are what-if's (outside, how would she get along with the dog if she had claws, etc.)

We've talked about it and don't know if we'd do it again if/when we got another cat. We probably won't, and will do whatever we need to facilitate anything our current cat's needs... but hard to tell at this time and will just depend on the circumstances I suppose. FWIW, our cat doesn't seem unhappy; but it's a cat after all :\

 

[Vermillion]

I'm interested in exploring why people feel that traditional "pet" animals (i.e. excluding things like ravens or foxes or eagles which can be tamed but not are not necessarily domesticated) should be granted special privilege over other animals which are not.

Do you feel that the Chinese, for example, are immoral or wrong for eating dogs? Is it wrong to eat horses? If so, why? Obviously if you are a vegan then no explanation is necessary.

Didn't finish the thread yet, but I got to this and wanted to comment:

Perhaps because the pet is simply more liked, and closer to the owner. Now, this is illogical, yes, but it matches the way most people feel about their families or SOs. I imagine, for example, that you would be more concerned about your girlfriend's health than that of a stranger. Just as people don't think of all people in the same manner, the same goes for pets as compared to other animals.

EDIT: Woowww, beaten to the punch. Upon reading through the thread, I've personally concluded that it's fine in certain situations. And provided it doesn't affect the cat's happiness, it really is a decision that could go one way or another. Particularly since now I'm wondering that if that is true (long-term happiness is unaffected), what are the grounds for saying that it's cruel?

 

[systemfehler]

Yes, there is.

http://www.news-herald.com/articles/2011/01/11/sports/nh3368426.txt
http://naturalplanetmagazine.com/2013/02/feline-framed-are-cats-driving-our-wildlife-extinct/

And the article relating to the US specifically again:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cats-and-bird-populations

According to Marra the number 1 death cause for grown up birds are high buildings, windows and walls. I won't make some stupid point about tearing walls down and using only tinted windows.

A cat is a natural enemy of a bird. The study which has been declared exaggerated by german experts says that about 60% of the young birds died and out of that population 80% have been killed by their natural enemies - cats, rats, buzzards, snakes. The last 2 have been driven out of most cities.

Half of those deaths have been by the claws of a cat - mostly wild cats not controlled, neutered or fed. I dare to say that a well fed cat playing in a yard is better than a hungry pack of feral cats hunting for food. So birds may die because of cats but not declawing your pet animal is not the major cause of bird decimation.

Also your logic doesn't make sense to me. Why is inconsistency that bad if it helps at least someone? Yes I have different standards for animals that are slaughtered for food than I have for my pet animals. If my cat lives a good life there is no drawback for the pig in the slaughterhouse that never saw the daylight in its life. Or would you rather have me to don't care at all just for the sake of consistency?

 

[adamsappel]

I think Opiate is a great mod program, but sometimes his threads/posts read like he's trying to better understand his human masters. I fear his eventual sentience.

My cat was feral. He'll claw at the furniture, which I don't particularly care about, and he ignores his cardboard scratching box. The only thing that gets to me is he's never learned that there is a difference between skin and clothing, so he will knead and scratch on bare skin. I still would never have him declawed. It seems unnecessarily extreme just to avoid some loose threads on upholstery.

 

[SolidusDave]

The birds/rodents thing is anyway a flawed argument imo, as we're talking about a human-made, urban environment. Introducing cats/pets to a city/suburban area is not at all the same as an actual invasive species.

 

[akira28]

it's an emotional issue without much logic involved beyond what makes people comfortable, mentally. They don't love a hypothetical piglet, but some people equate their animals to their children, because of their brains.(And how could you chop off a 3 year old's fingers?!) Their brains generally wouldn't do that for a chicken in a crate, not without first being made to empathize. So expecting that leap without the necessary prodding is a little much.

I think I'm noticing a trend. I understand humans like to have opportunities to differentiate, judge, and appreciate. And I notice the declawing thing to be a nice little nasty one.

The birds/rodents thing is anyway a flawed argument imo, as we're talking about a human-made, urban environment. Introducing cats/pets to a city/suburban area is not at all the same as an actual invasive species.

the problem areas where birds and rodents and other animals are being killed are not inside of urban or suburban areas. But the wooded areas that are close or adjacent to human settlement, where development ended or hasn't begun.

 

[Reyne]

Would I declaw amputate the end-bone x10 on a cat because of the social/economic issue that might arise in letting it keep its claws?

I'd rather not keep a cat at all than declaw amputate one just so I can keep it around. I mean, if I am going to keep a pet, such as a cat, I might as well spend some time with it to teach it keep its claws of that furniture. Cats can be trained.

Luckily, where I live declawing is illegal at any rate, so there is really nothing for me to consider. If I get a cat, I am just gonna have to deal with the fact that cats naturally have claws.

 

[SolidusDave]

the problem areas where birds and rodents and other animals are being killed are not inside of urban or suburban areas. But the wooded areas that are close or adjacent to human settlement, where development ended or hasn't begun.

But cat territories don't exceed a few hundred meters (which includes the suburban area). So yeah, if there happens to be a forest directly next to a city, there will be less birds within the first few meters of that forest. Most cat victims are species that actually flourish in a human environment, the other ones are already gone because of the proximity to humans/human settlements/noise/pollution/no food source etc.

 

[Lumiere]

In short, I don't get for whom declawing their cat is actually a necessity. There is a good reason why it's illegal in Europe. Basically the laws prevent any amputations (like the cosmetic stuff on dogs).

This. Plenty of countries have outlawed declawing, and I'm sure they didn't do it without reason. Moreover, as many have already mentioned, it's really not that hard to keep your cats from scratching your furniture. I've had several cats growing up and never had any scratching problem... currently have two and they really only scratch their scratching posts. No particular training was needed, since they do prefer the materials the scratching posts are made of over our furniture. The only "accidents" we've had were missed jumps and similar, which are honestly rare and not a big deal.

I'm not sure if I get the argument about protecting birds and other animals threatened by cats in relation to declawing.
While I completely agree that cats should be kept from killing birds and other wildlife, this is obtained by keeping them indoor. If you have an outdoor cat, having him declawed is (even more of) a horrible idea and puts him at risk in case of fights with other cats or other animals, reduces his mobility, etc.
This is also true in the case of an indoor cat that runs out - puts him at higher risk. As much as I care about cats not killing wildlife, if one of mine escaped I would put his welfare above the wildlife around here.

 

[akira28]

But cat territories don't exceed a few hundred meters (which includes the suburban area). So yeah, if there happens to be a forest directly next to a city, there will be less birds within the first few meters of that forest. Most cat victims are species that actually flourish in a human environment, the other ones are already gone because of the proximity to humans/human settlements/noise/pollution/no food source etc.

This is more of a cat, abandoned cat, feral cat issue, not specifically having anything to do with declawing. But it's a problem that comes from humanity's unrealistic love affair with cats.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

This is more of a cat, abandoned cat, feral cat issue, not specifically having anything to do with declawing. But it's a problem that comes from humanity's unrealistic love affair with cats.

that's what I thought, I think that article is pretty much blown out of proportion.

I am all for spaying and neutering cats to control the population, cat's can have a huge litter of kittens multiple times a year, they populate at a rapid rate just like rabbits. There's a good reason we need to neuter them... (we can argue that neutering is as much as mutilation as declawing) but I am not going to buy that...

I much rather have a spayed and neutered cat, being free to go and play outside than a cat in heat, trapped indoors all the time...

Again, unless you live in an area that has a huge population of wild animals such as coyotes, foxes, jackals, weasels etc. Cat's usually do very well outdoors in regards to defending themselves.

I live next to a very high traffic main road, and my cat has been going outside everyday now for six years, but she knows enough to not cross the main road, she goes in the fields and crosses a smaller road.

Anyway, I doubt domestic outdoor cats, with caring and responsible owners (Not insane Cat Ladies) who roam the outdoors few times a week that come back home just in time for their 'Fancy Feast' supper are going to be any serious threat to the population of the birds and other small wildlife in the area. But I can see how feral cats may be cause for concern.. But I honestly don't know too many neighborhoods in towns and cities in Eastern Canada that has a huge population of feral cats roaming around causing shit, like a pack of dingoes!

At least in Canada animal control is good at taking care of such things.

 

[Devolution]

that's what I thought, I think that article is pretty much blown out of proportion.

I am all for spaying and neutering cats to control the population, cat's can have a huge litter of kittens multiple times a year, they populate at a rapid rate just like rabbits. There's a good reason we need to neuter them... (we can argue that neutering is as much as mutilation as declawing) but I am not going to buy that...

I much rather have a spayed and neutered cat, being free to go and play outside than a cat in heat, trapped indoors all the time...

Again, unless you live in an area that has a huge population of wild animals such as coyotes, foxes, jackals, weasels etc. Cat's usually do very well outdoors in regards to defending themselves.

I live next to a very high traffic main road, and my cat has been going outside everyday now for six years, but she knows enough to not cross the main road, she goes in the fields and crosses a smaller road.

Anyway, I doubt domestic outdoor cats, with caring and responsible owners (Not insane Cat Ladies) who roam the outdoors few times a week that come back home just in time for their 'Fancy Feast' supper are going to be any serious threat to the population of the birds and other small wildlife in the area. But I can see how feral cats may be cause for concern.. But I honestly don't know too many neighborhoods in towns and cities in Eastern Canada that has a huge population of feral cats roaming around causing shit, like a pack of dingoes!

At least in Canada animal control is good at taking care of such things.

The owned outdoor cats that go outside, by my own experience having owned them for years now, are a bigger threat to voles, mice, rats and other ground vermin. One of my cats was the unsung hero of the neighborhood because he helped to eradicate vole issues for people. The birds my cats have caught have been pretty stupid and dive bombed their food. The birds in my neck of the woods have much more to fear from raccoons, who disturb the nests much more frequently than cats.

 

[entremet]

Didn't know that people were so vocal about declawing cats. Pretty common in my family and friends circles. These are all indoor cats as well and they seemed like happy, well adjusted cats.

 

[ericexpo]

As i was reading this my cat got his paw stuck on the sofa and couldn't get down because his claws are to long. We're going to the vet tomorrow to trim them because i've been lazy. it was 10 mins of him in the same position, followed by 5 mins of crying for help, then when i tried to get him loose the worse crying i've ever heard.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Well, of course I wouldn't just declaw a cat as soon as I got it. Some cats seem to just avoid damaging behavior with their claws. Others can be easily trained. But if the cat is repeatedly hurting guests and causing thousands of dollars worth of damage, I think it's something that should be done. The cat'll be fine. (Unless someone shows me statistics saying otherwise, still a little unclear on that, people were claiming it earlier in the thread)

never met a cat that did that much damage, there's no need to exaggerate to make a,point.

I think the explanation for the comparison has been made repeatedly, and by several people: because much/most meat consumption in first world countries is done for convenience. Many people eat meat because they just find it tastier than salads and beans and tofu, and not because it's an important part of a balanced diet (And certainly not because it's less expensive). If you object to declawing for the purpose of human convenience, then logically you should object to most meat eating for convenience, too.

I will repeat this, as well: I think many people viscerally object to declawing both because cats are cute and because cats are inside our homes living with us. By contrast, pigs bred for consumption are not as cute and live and die in a tiny box somewhere in Texas. The treatment of cats has a more immediate impact on us emotionally.

I can't do anything about the billions of pigs slaughtered but I can do something about a cat being declawed.

Didn't know that people were so vocal about declawing cats. Pretty common in my family and friends circles. These are all indoor cats as well and they seemed like happy, well adjusted cats.

maybe you should learn a bit more then if you're going to keep owning cats.

 

[Devolution]

never met a cat that did that much damage, there's no need to exaggerate to make a,point.



I can't do anything about the billions of pigs slaughtered but I can do something about a cat being declawed.



maybe you should learn a bit more then if you're going to keep owning cats.

You're honestly more likely to have a problem with a cat pissing where it shouldn't than clawing stuff. Time to remove it's bladder and put it in diapers.

 

[Lumiere]

Didn't know that people were so vocal about declawing cats. Pretty common in my family and friends circles. These are all indoor cats as well and they seemed like happy, well adjusted cats.

As several people mentioned earlier, declawing is actually restricted or illegal in many countries, so it's really not surprising that people are vocal about it.

Coming from Europe myself, I had no idea it was somewhat common in the USA and was honestly horrified when I found out. The idea of amputating toe bones to avoid scratching feels crazy when you're not used to it being something that "everyone does".

 

[Feep]

never met a cat that did that much damage, there's no need to exaggerate to make a,point.

My sofa is $1200. That's easy.

 

[entremet]

never met a cat that did that much damage, there's no need to exaggerate to make a,point.



I can't do anything about the billions of pigs slaughtered but I can do something about a cat being declawed.



maybe you should learn a bit more then if you're going to keep owning cats.

I don't own pets myself. I'm also more of a dog guy, but too busy to own one at the moment. Just heard about declawing cats from relative and friends, who had cats destroy furniture.

 

[suzu]

Repeating this again for people who keep comparing neutering/spaying to declawing:

Spaying/neutering is good for benefits to their health (reduces risk to cancers), treating behavioral issues (such as going into heat, roaming/fighting, and marking all yo stuff with their pee) and of course, population control.

This applies to dogs too.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

You're honestly more likely to have a problem with a cat pissing where it shouldn't than clawing stuff. Time to remove it's bladder and put it in diapers.

that would actually be kind of funny. hmmm.......hmmm.....nah.

My sofa is $1200. That's easy.

what if a dog took a shit on the sofa? should he have his asshole shut? don't you see how that's an extreme position to take? it's akin to cutting off the hand of a thief because he stole once.

I don't own pets myself. I'm also more of a dog guy, but too busy to own one at the moment. Just heard about declawing cats from relative and friends, who had cats destroy furniture.

ok, sorry to jump down your throat. but it's just wrong, if your going to own a pet mutilating them just should not be done.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Only de-claw your cat if it lives exclusively indoors and you have no other pets that it could scuffle with.

 

[jergrah]

Against.

Personally think its fucked up to declaw cats. Nearly all shelters in the Seattle area make you sign a contract stating you will never declaw them at time of adoption -- I wish all shelters would do the same.

 

[Falcs]

If you have to declaw your cat so that it can live in your house, you should just not get a cat. And fuck you.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Repeating this again for people who keep comparing neutering/spaying to declawing:

Spaying/neutering is good for benefits to their health (reduces risk to cancers), treating behavioral issues (such as going into heat, roaming/fighting, and marking all yo stuff with their pee) and of course, population control.

This applies to dogs too.

declawing is good for the health of the bird population if your cat is an outdoor cat or chance of running away

 

[akira28]

If you have to declaw your cat so that it can live in your house, you should just not get a cat. And fuck you.

wouldn't you just love to have that person's fingers nipped off at the first knuckle?


Also like I said. I wonder if there is any chemical reward for identifying a "bad" person?

 

[Devolution]

declawing is good for the health of the bird population if your cat is an outdoor cat or chance of running away

Why would declaw a cat and put it outside?

 

[perfectchaos007]

declawing is good for the health of the bird population if your cat is an outdoor cat or chance of running away

Also, have you noticed only clawed cats get themselves stuck in tree's? declawing them keeps them safely on the ground.

 

[strata8]

People in this thread need to stop treating declawing as the only solution. With viable options like training, manual trimming, and nail caps, there's really no reason for it beyond laziness.

 

[Boom Boom Pow]

Why would declaw a cat and put it outside?

some people are weird? plus it can always escape outside.

 

[anaron]

Repeating this again for people who keep comparing neutering/spaying to declawing:

Spaying/neutering is good for benefits to their health (reduces risk to cancers), treating behavioral issues (such as going into heat, roaming/fighting, and marking all yo stuff with their pee) and of course, population control.

This applies to dogs too.

Thank you. The false equivalency in this thread is hysterical.

There are major benefits being applied to the animal itself within those surgeries; as opposed y'know, to solely protecting fucking furniture.

 

[Northeastmonk]

They break the phalanx in order to reduce inflammation and severe infections.

Little kitty may wake up sore or the vet is really bad at the procedure.

 

[Lumiere]

declawing is good for the health of the bird population if your cat is an outdoor cat or chance of running away

How does it make any sense to declaw a cat and then put him outdoor without defenses? What if he gets in a fight, attacked by another animal, or needs to climb to run away from something?

Even worse for an indoor cat that runs away - it's already dangerous enough for cats that are not used to being outside even with their claws.

 

[DataStream]

There is no reason to declaw cats. If you insist on being a pet owner and don't want to be responsible, take your cat to a vet that will cap their nails. If all this sounds too hard, you shouldn't have pets (or children for that matter).

But really, you can do this on your own. If you trim their nails on a regular basis along with having scratch posts and pads, you shouldn't have your furniture get destroyed. Cats are smart, get a kitten and start teaching them at a young age if you don't want to deal with an animal stuck in its ways.

Hell, I let my cat have pretty long nails and she rarely claws at anything she isn't supposed to be. We play fight on a regular basis where she uses her claws completely, but has full awareness of the damage she can inflect with both her claws and her teeth. The only time I end up with scratches is if she gets startled when she's on my shoulder and jumps off with her hind legs.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Cats rule. Dogs drool. Opiate's a fool.

I invoke a duel.

Welcome to school.

Spoiler

he looks like a mule.

 

[Feep]

what if a dog took a shit on the sofa? should he have his asshole shut? don't you see how that's an extreme position to take? it's akin to cutting off the hand of a thief because he stole once.

If the dog kept shitting on my sofa, bed, et cetera and couldn't be trained out of it...well, shitting is an essential biological function. It's likely he would be moved from shelter to shelter until he was put down. It's unlikely anyone would take a dog like that.

If the dog could undergo a painful brain procedure to permanently stop him from shitting on the couch, I would probably say go for it.

This isn't really analogous. I don't know why I responded.