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"DELAYS ARE GOOD" -- I'm an idiot

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Open Source said:
If delays are good like so many people are arguing, DNF is the best game ever.

I have to agree with the original poster's unstated argument: delays usually reflect failure on the part of the dev team to get their original vision for the game done on time. Rarely will a game be delayed when they make the game they wanted to make on time, and then go back and say, "let's blow our deadlines and go make this better!" They make a sequel instead.

Star Control 2 was an exception.
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So many things can cause a delay.
 
Open Source said:
If delays are good like so many people are arguing, DNF is the best game ever.

I have to agree with the original poster's unstated argument: delays usually reflect failure on the part of the dev team to get their original vision for the game done on time. Rarely will a game be delayed when they make the game they wanted to make on time, and then go back and say, "let's blow our deadlines and go make this better!" They make a sequel instead.

Star Control 2 was an exception.
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Finally someone who gets it and didn't twist my words to make it sound like I want developers to hand us rushed products.
 
Red Scarlet said:
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So many things can cause a delay.
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Whatever those so many things are, usually it simply means things didn't really go as planned. It could be because of development problems...or maybe they didn't want to release the game to avoid direct competition with another game(ie- releasing FF and DQ at the same time). Whatever the case, it's usually not "let's make the game even better than we originally planned despite the deadline).

If the developer is able to reach their intended goal by the deadline, they will release the game on time(generally speaking. yeah yeah, I know there are exceptions).
 
pel1300 said:
Whatever those so many things are, usually it simply means things didn't really go as planned. It could be because of development problems...or maybe they didn't want to release the game to avoid direct competition with another game(ie- releasing FF and DQ at the same time). Whatever the case, it's usually not "let's make the game even better than we originally planned despite the deadline).

If the developer is able to reach their intended goal by the deadline, they will release the game on time(generally speaking. yeah yeah, I know there are exceptions).
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So what was the point of this thread again?
 
Aurora said:
So what was the point of this thread again?
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That a game delay usually means the developer didn't reach their original goal by the deadline, and does not mean the developer decided to blow the deadline so they could make the game better than they originally intended to.

That point being directed at the people who say "I like it when I hear that a game is delayed".

Obvious point? Yes, I already said in my original post that I realize this is a very obvious point, but the fact that I have encountered people who are pleased at the news of a game delay prompted me to post it.
 
Aurora said:
So what was the point of this thread again?
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The original poster is saying that GAF's celebratory attitude at the announcement of a delay should be tempered with the realization that they are getting the same game they expected all along, just 6 months late.

Personally, I don't care because I rarely buy games until they are $19.99 anyway.
 
I'm glad I was able to provide Mejilan, Aurora, Red Scarlett, and others who have replied here numerous times such an entertaining hour with this thread.
 
It's a rare pleasure for us. This level of sheer absurdity rarely seeps out of the diseased wound that is Gamefaqs. ;p
 
I'd say that the Final Fantasy XII type of delay is way more common than the Twilight Princess case, which many of you are using as an example of why delays can be good.

And FFXII is a great example of the more common type of delay. 2 years late because of problems in development(like Matsuno being ill, disagreements between director and co., unexpected road bumps, etc.).
 
pel1300 said:
And FFXII is a great example of the more common type of delay. 2 years late because of problems in development(like Matsuno being ill, disagreements between director and co., unexpected road bumps, etc.).
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Your consistent at least. You don't know what your talking about in the first post and you don't know what your talking about in the last.
 
Stoney Mason said:
Your consistent at least. You don't know what your talking about in the first post and you don't know what your talking about in the last.
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I find the original poster's lack of coherence, as well as the irony of just about everyone else's failure to grasp his ineloquent (and quite pointless) arguments, somewhat amusing (about 5/10 on the amusement meter).
 
Open Source said:
I find the original poster's lack of coherence, as well as the irony of just about everyone else's failure to grasp his ineloquent (and quite pointless) arguments, somewhat amusing (about 5/10 on the amusement meter).
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I grasped it from the first post. He's still wrong and he still doesn't know what he's talking about. But that's cool. It's a messageboard. There's a lot of room for people who don't know what they're talking about.
 
You're all forgetting the most important point of view.

Delays are good because I can't afford 400 new games this fall D:


Seriously though, delays exist because deadlines exist. Working with deadlines leads to (sometimes inaccurate) estimates for dev time, so really, when a game is delayed, it's not because "they couldn't finish in time," it's more likely because someone higher up thought they could finish it faster than they could.

On the other hand, if nobody had deadlines in this industry, the Duke Nukem Forever situation might happen more often.
 
pel1300 said:
That a game delay usually means the developer didn't reach their original goal by the deadline, and does not mean the developer decided to blow the deadline so they could make the game better than they originally intended to.

That point being directed at the people who say "I like it when I hear that a game is delayed".

Obvious point? Yes, I already said in my original post that I realize this is a very obvious point, but the fact that I have encountered people who are pleased at the news of a game delay prompted me to post it.
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What's wrong with being glad over this tho. I don't think anyone who says that doesn't realize that there are problems and that is why it's delayed. I think they are glad that the dev didn't just shove it out hte door even tho it's unfinished. It's still hope that they will be getting the game in the way it should be since they've been reading about it.

I really don't understand why you made this thread; especially since it's such an "obvious point".

*goes to OT and makes "sky is not always blue" post*
 
Koomaster said:
I really don't understand why you made this thread; especially since it's such an "obvious point".

*goes to OT and makes "sky is not always blue" post*
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Well clearly his friend told him that the sky is always blue and everybody on GAF believes the sky is always blue so somebody had to come down from the moutain and deliver the word. The sky ain't always blue damn it! It was like Moses but without the eloquence. :)
 
Koomaster said:
What's wrong with being glad over this tho. I don't think anyone who says that doesn't realize that there are problems and that is why it's delayed. I think they are glad that the dev didn't just shove it out hte door even tho it's unfinished. It's still hope that they will be getting the game in the way it should be since they've been reading about it.

I really don't understand why you made this thread; especially since it's such an "obvious point".

*goes to OT and makes "sky is not always blue" post*
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I think the idea was that if people are always happy about delays, then publishers will have even less incentive to get games out on time. Kind of like the people who gripe about microtransactions, saying that buying small bits of add-on game content encourages publishers to ship games without content they would normally have included for free.

I don't agree with the OP's argument, as financial pressures should be enough to ensure that publishers don't do like Hollywood and hold games back for years after they are done, waiting for the right moment to release them for maximum sales. There are some exceptions, where publishers hold games back for next-gen platforms (PDZ, TP, etc.).

But hey, it's much easier and more satisfying to call someone an idiot, right?
 
**** anyone who is fine with the Zelda delay. The game could have come out 6 months ago (or more) for Gamecube, now us not planning on buying wii at launch are forced to bare delays that will have no impact on our version
 
Stoney Mason said:
Your consistent at least. You don't know what your talking about in the first post and you don't know what your talking about in the last.
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Prove me wrong then. You say you grasped it from the first post. Ok, how am I incorrect in the first post(and the one you just replied to)?
 
Suburban Cowboy said:
**** anyone who is fine with the Zelda delay. The game could have come out 6 months ago (or more) for Gamecube, now us not planning on buying wii at launch are forced to bare delays that will have no impact on our version
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headache_man.jpg


Okay. I'm out for real this time.
 
Stoney Mason said:
Roughly correct. Game Development isn't like a fine baked pie where it needs to cook for only 45 minutes and after that it's burnt. Any development cycle always has things cut or certains pieces rougher than they wanted and more time would allow something to be polished more than if you released it earlier. ALWAYS. Sometimes games are delayed because they are way behind. Sometimes games are delayed because it has higher expectatations on it and it needs more content or more polish to be Triple AAA. Some times games are delayed because it just turns out the original design wasn't so great or some major feature isn't shaping up the way it should be. No dev really loves a delay and sometimes a delay is dangerous for the bottom line for a title that is tied around something timing specific like a sports titles or something tied to a movie. So the issue is more complex than the OP makes it out to be and different depending on the company and the title. A delay at blizzard means something far different than a delay at say EA because of their market positions and such.
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I realize that there could be a million different reasons why a game is delayed.

Still, the examples you posted fall under the "things didn't go the way the developer/publisher expected" category, so it doesn't change anything.
 
pel1300 said:
I realize that there could be a million different reasons why a game is delayed.

Still, the examples you posted fall under the "things didn't go the developer/publisher expected" category, so it doesn't change anything.
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Well since you quoted my post and seemed reasonable I'll add something. No dev cycle ever goes perfect. What I object to is the concept you have of things are either perfect in a released game or they aren't and it's delayed. No dev cycle I've ever seen is like that although clearly some products are cleaner than others at release.

But every product is ultimately a thing where they say we aren't fixing any more bugs rather than saying we are done and our job is complete and the game is perfect. I guarantee you on EVERY project there is a database loaded with bugs and stupid things the developers wanted to fix and couldn't. It's normally the things you immediately see posted on message boards once the game is released and still others that weren't even found in time. I've seen games that should have been delayed with major bugs ship right out the door because they have to for business or marketing reasons. So just because a game hasn't been delayed doesn't mean it wouldn't have beeen better. It could just mean it couldn't slip.

Of course a game being delayed in some way means something went wrong or didn't stick to the schedule and development hates that and it can get people fired. Of course if nothing major went wrong that's great and the project is more likely to be stable and match the vision of the people putting it out hopefully. But these issues are so variable and ultimately are business related issues and development issues rather than gamer enjoyment issues.

I can tell you for a fact that in most cases it's to the gamers benefit when a game is delayed. Yes there may be issues but it's almost certainly better for the company to delay it from the consumer's side (Not necessarily from the business side) because you will get a less bad game than you would have if they had shipped it earlier. In the case of mega titles like Halo and Zelda it's 100% certain you are getting a better game due to more bugs being fixed, mechanics being worked on, etc. Zelda isn't sitting in some box just waiting a year to be shipped. They are working on it and fixing things and improving things down to the wire in their schedule and I can guarantee you are getting a better games because of it whether you read about it or not as long as they are relatively careful about what they introduce so it doesn't screw up game stability (crashing). The GameCube owner isn't getting screwed at all because he is getting improvements that Wii is getting in the core mechanics and bug issues. (Not talking about the wand but everything outside of that on the dev side) These are things I know from first hand experience so I'm not trying to be (overly) rude but from a gamer's perspective a delay is probably 80% of the time better for the game. For the finanacials of the company that's a different story. The dev cycle simply isn't as smooth as you make it out to be. Just look at all the buggy games or bad games on the market and still most of those hit their schedules (or let's more accurately say were released on schedule).
 
Here's another reason why delays are good. Games that are scheduled for Q4 that slip in to the next year help fill out the release schedule in the first part of the year.

Delays can be good if they are put to good use. You can spend the time adding content, features, or modes of play, but the more you add, the more time you have to test those new additions. If your core gameplay mechanics aren't up to snuff then polishing your turd or making it bigger and feature-laden won't help. Most devs don't have the resources to rebuild it from scratch, so it gets released and they hope marketing can pull some sales. You could develop a game forever since there is always something more you could add or improve upon, but at some point you have to say it's good enough and curb the feature creep. Plus, you know, making money is nice too.
 
I don't think anyone is saying that given a product that isn't qute ready to ship, the decision to delay is a bad thing. It's the fact that a publisher promised certain things (features, quality) and didn't deliver on time (for whatever reason), that the OP is saying should not be celebrated. Kind of an obvious argument, probably one borne out of irritation at seeing posters cheer what should be bad news (that a game is not ready when it was supposed to be).
 
The entire argument is dumb. Taking anything as complex as a new game from conception to final release is going to have snags along the way, especially when you are using new technology. I think it was Jason Jones that described game development as "trying to construct a cathedral in a hurricane". Lots of moving parts, things that turn out to be more complex than expected, new ideas added along the way....it's an art as much as a science. And it applies to everything creative, not just game development. You lay down your roadmap and execute, adjusting as needed for the unexpected. No big deal.

In other words, cope.
 
I (unintentionally) delayed reading this thread by an hour. I will agree with the OP; the end product turned out to be shit and was unsalvagable. It was not good news.
 
Stoney Mason said:
Well since you quoted my post and seemed reasonable I'll add something. No dev cycle ever goes perfect. What I object to is the concept you have of things are either perfect in a released game or they aren't and it's delayed. No dev cycle I've ever seen is like that although clearly some products are cleaner than others at release.

But every product is ultimately a thing where they say we aren't fixing any more bugs rather than saying we are done and our job is complete and the game is perfect. I guarantee you on EVERY project there is a database loaded with bugs and stupid things the developers wanted to fix and couldn't. It's normally the things you immediately see posted on message boards once the game is released and still others that weren't even found in time. I've seen games that should have been delayed with major bugs ship right out the door because they have to for business or marketing reasons. So just because a game hasn't been delayed doesn't mean it wouldn't have beeen better. It could just mean it couldn't slip.

Of course a game being delayed in some way means something went wrong or didn't stick to the schedule and development hates that and it can get people fired. Of course if nothing major went wrong that's great and the project is more likely to be stable and match the vision of the people putting it out hopefully. But these issues are so variable and ultimately are business related issues and development issues rather than gamer enjoyment issues.

I can tell you for a fact that in most cases it's to the gamers benefit when a game is delayed. Yes there may be issues but it's almost certainly better for the company to delay it from the consumer's side (Not necessarily from the business side) because you will get a less bad game than you would have if they had shipped it earlier. In the case of mega titles like Halo and Zelda it's 100% certain you are getting a better game due to more bugs being fixed, mechanics being worked on, etc. Zelda isn't sitting in some box just waiting a year to be shipped. They are working on it and fixing things and improving things down to the wire in their schedule and I can guarantee you are getting a better games because of it whether you read about it or not as long as they are relatively careful about what they introduce so it doesn't screw up game stability (crashing). The GameCube owner isn't getting screwed at all because he is getting improvements that Wii is getting in the core mechanics and bug issues. (Not talking about the wand but everything outside of that on the dev side) These are things I know from first hand experience so I'm not trying to be (overly) rude but from a gamer's perspective a delay is probably 80% of the time better for the game. For the finanacials of the company that's a different story. The dev cycle simply isn't as smooth as you make it out to be. Just look at all the buggy games or bad games on the market and still most of those hit their schedules (or let's more accurately say were released on schedule).
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This is TRUTH.
Delays happen because 1. Something went wrong. OR 2. The original ship date was not reasonable. OR 3. The powers that be legitimately think more time will make the game better (sell more copies).
 
Delays are neither good nor bad. In fact, there is no such thing as a delay; only a failure to set and manage expectations.

Nathan
 
pel1300 said:
You guys obviously don't get it.

If a game needs to be delayed - it should be delayed, duh. And the game will turn out better than if it wasn't delayed, duh.

Now wouldn't it have been nice if the development team was able to make the progress they intended from the start, and therefore were able to finish the game on time? Yes, duh.

Those of you trying to act as if I'm implying that games shouldn't be delayed are the same morons who say "I like it when a game is delayed".
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Let me get this straight - you started a thread to say that development should always go perfectly, and you're mad that sometimes it doesn't, and that people support the developers fixing things, rather than somehow going back in time and not making those mistakes in the first place are stupid?

How do you not have some kind of appropriate tag yet? Admins am delayed.
 
If I was a junior member and this was the first thread I saw, I would get the **** away from this board and never come back. Now I just laugh and wait for a lock that will apparently never come.
 
This is a good thread. Most people don't know what goes on behind a delay, or how dates are set in the first, setting things up for potential delays.

When its done, its done. Like above post said, is anything really delayed? Only against a ship date standard, which I admit is big :)
 
LiveFromKyoto said:
Let me get this straight - you started a thread to say that development should always go perfectly, and you're mad that sometimes it doesn't, and that people support the developers fixing things, rather than somehow going back in time and not making those mistakes in the first place are stupid?

How do you not have some kind of appropriate tag yet? Admins am delayed.
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QFT
 
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