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[Xal-Shoota]

Why did they decide to make everything the same, but worse? What the HELL is that fucking stretched to hell font? and the oval keys? All I can say is WTF.

EDIT : I christen this laptop the
"DELLBOOK BRO"

 

[Dina]

Shit no. I used a Mac Book Pro with a touchpad and as soon as I got a solid desk under that ding, I went straight for a good old MX518 mouse, although any good mice will do. Comfort, speed, precision. A touchpad has nothing to it and maybe never will. While in travel it is an okay substitute for something better though.

As for the point of getting laughed at in a business meeting with an Alienware, I would laugh at you equally for bringing a Mac Book if you didn't need it for your work (design, mostly). You want corporate? You buy a Lenovo or an IBM. You don't buy a Mac Book.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Shit no. I used a Mac Book Pro with a touchpad and as soon as I got a solid desk under that ding, I went straight for a good old MX518 mouse, although any good mice will do.

You forgot to install BetterTouchTool, bro.

 

[The Technomancer]

i find Dreams-Visions speech on the Macbook track bad to be a tiny bit hyperbolic, but honestly, not much. That thing is good. Certainly lightyears ahead of a regular track pad, and on par with or better then a mouse for standard navigation. Only thing I really need the mouse for is gaming and design work.

 

[JonCha]

The keys looks so cheap! Why would you buy that? Straight away people will ask if it's a Mac.

 

[Trent Strong]

You can play games on the Dell.

 

[brotkasten]

Yea, it's beautiful.

and no, ThinkPads are not attractive. They're industry standard square, black and boring. Which is the desire of the business types who love them. But they'll never be mistaken as sexy.

Depends on who you ask.

 

[Vyer]

Depends on who you ask.

I have to agree with him on that. I use one right now. It's generic and bland. But it's a solid work machine though.

That samsung is great looking.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Sure, Dell may be copying a bit, but they're definitely not copying in the price area. This is a comparison of the MacBook Pro and the XPS 15, both customized with almost the exact same specs:

Except that the base model of MBP would be $1799; you specifically paid $200 for 4 more gigs of RAM, $100 for a bigger hard drive, $100 for a "higher resolution display", etc.

 

[Dina]

Except that the base model of MBP would be $1799; you specifically paid $200 for 4 more gigs of RAM, $100 for a bigger hard drive, $100 for a "higher resolution display", etc.

So the MBP costs as much as the Dell one if you lower specs? How is this not proving the point?

 

[Bboy AJ]

The trackpad is great and it's my main tool. But it is not as precise as a mouse. Editing a word document with it is a pain. Web browsing, on the other hand, is incomparably better.

 

[numble]

lol

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2011/may/25/dell-thinnest-laptop-or-not

Noted in passing: advert for the Dell XPS-15, containing the phrase

Finally, the power you crave in the thinnest 15" PC on the planet*.

Wow, the thinnest? But wait, what's the asterisk?

Small print time: "Based on Dell internal analysis as at February 2011. Based on a thickness comparison (front and rear measurements) of other 15" laptop PCs manufactured by HP, Acer, Toshiba, Asus, Lenovo, Samsung, Sony, MSI. No comparison made with Apple or other manufacturers not listed."

 

[subrock]

Finally, companies are finally copying apple. It's about time. Now someone just needs to release the cr48 for sale and I'll be a happy man

 

[Particle Physicist]

Need something a little more flashy?

Oh god, is that alienware? I used to spooge over their ads when I was younger. I wanted one so bad lol

 

[AbsoluteZero]

So the MBP costs as much as the Dell one if you lower specs? How is this not proving the point?

Well, part of that is you can upgrade the RAM and HDD for less if you do it yourself.

 

[Technosteve]

So the MBP costs as much as the Dell one if you lower specs? How is this not proving the point?

Your getting last year's technology in a new container

 

[Chuck (Old)]

That Dell is hideous. Apple is so far ahead of their competitors it's not even funny. Macbook Pro 4 life!

 

[Harry Dresden]

Shit no. I used a Mac Book Pro with a touchpad and as soon as I got a solid desk under that ding, I went straight for a good old MX518 mouse, although any good mice will do. Comfort, speed, precision. A touchpad has nothing to it and maybe never will. While in travel it is an okay substitute for something better though.

As for the point of getting laughed at in a business meeting with an Alienware, I would laugh at you equally for bringing a Mac Book if you didn't need it for your work (design, mostly). You want corporate? You buy a Lenovo or an IBM. You don't buy a Mac Book.

The whole "Macs for Design!" thing is kind of bullshit anyways. I know a lot of designers, including myself, who would much rather use a PC.

Back in the early 2000s it was true, but now adays it's pretty much personal preference. You'll get good performance from whatever you choose.

I stick with PCs because I like to build them myself.

 

[Vilam]

It's unfortunate Windows touchpads aren't set up like OS X touch pads. It's amazing how good it is.

Back = 3 finger swipe left

Next = 3 finger swipe right

Scroll up/down = 2 finger swipe up/down

Switch tab left/right = 2 finger tap left/right

Close Opera = 4-finger click

"Aero Snap" left or right = backwards "L" swipe or forward "L" swipe

so good. OS X is the first OS that has made me want to NOT use an external mouse.

God, that sounds like my own personal hell. Fuck this context sensitive shit, this is exactly why I don't like Apple.

 

[SnakeXs]

God, that sounds like my own personal hell. Fuck this context sensitive shit, this is exactly why I don't like Apple.

A third party application that a user customizes to his own desires is what you hate Apple?

 

[Zzoram]

the Macbook Pro touch pad is godly, one of the many reasons why I will get a Macbook Pro if I ever get another laptop

 

[Dreams-Visions]

God, that sounds like my own personal hell. Fuck this context sensitive shit, this is exactly why I don't like Apple.

You're so lame. So fucking lame. You, as an individual.

We get it, you hate anything associated with Apple. Even when discussing the features of a fully customizable, 3rd party application. Even when it's something you'd obviously enjoy actually using in practice.

You're a cartoon character in Mac/Windows discussions. A common-ass fanboy. See yourself out.

edit: did this mothafucka actually vilify a touchpad that can actually do damn near anything you want? Really?

 

[AbsoluteZero]

God, that sounds like my own personal hell. Fuck this context sensitive shit, this is exactly why I don't like Apple.

Excuse me for dusting off an old meme.

 

[Vilam]

A third party application that a user customizes to his own desires is what you hate Apple?

Christ, be less dense please. The entire idea of shipping electronics without buttons is one of Apple's mantras. But go right ahead and circle the wagons.

 

[Ferrio]

You're so lame. So fucking lame. You, as an individual.

We get it, you hate anything associated with Apple. Even when discussing the features of a fully customizable, 3rd party application. Even when it's something you'd obviously enjoy actually using in practice.

You're a cartoon character in Mac/Windows discussions. A common-ass fanboy. See yourself out.

edit: did this mothafucka actually vilify a touchpad that can actually do damn near anything you want? Really?

Okay, you're trolling now at this point aren't you?

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

This thread is like the "pornstars that look like celebrities" thread.

 

[Vilam]

Even when it's something you'd obviously enjoy actually using in practice.

:lol

Step back for a minute and actually read the tripe you've posted in this thread. You're a joke poster. Excuse me for getting in the middle of the Apple splooge fest.

You want a good example of context / touch sensitive technology? Look at the button on the Zune. There's a nice use of touch technology without forcing it on the user. I've never seen anything imitate that sadly. It's the only time I've ever used touch technology without wishing I was clicking a button instead - probably because it still felt like one rather than a completely flat pad.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Christ, be less dense please. The entire idea of shipping electronics without buttons is one of Apple's mantras. But go right ahead and circle the wagons.

Have you ever really used an apple trackpad? Seen how intuitive and easy the gestures are (barring the app-specific ones mentioned before)? Realized that the entire trackpad is button, which supports right click with a second finger, and is much more intuitive, practical, and efficient than having separate buttons?

Who exactly is circling the wagons, when your complaint is simply that it has no buttons, which A.) isn't actually true, B.) isn't a valid criticism by itself?

The Apple trackpad is widely considered to be miles ahead of other trackpads, and it's not because of Apple fanboys spreading propaganda or brainwashing people.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

lol, this tool.

so anyway, I almost forgot my 3 most-used custom gestures in my browser.

3 finger swipe up = Home (back to the top of a page)

3 finger swipe down = End (very bottom of the page)

4 finger tap = refresh

GAF is infinitely better with them. Especially when sorted at 100 posts/page. Open a new thread, then just 3-finger swipe down to get to the bottom in a flash without having to grab the scroll bar on the right or 2-finger scrolling all the way down (though the inertia scrolling is fine in a pinch).

Okay, you're trolling now at this point aren't you?

Nope. It's one thing to think, as you did, that perhaps you might not find the feature useful. That's perfectly fine, as you're looking at features on paper...and it's really something you have to experience for a little while before you fully appreciate. It's another thing entirely to suggest that Apple and their product is somehow bad because you have the option to fully customize a part of it as much or as little as you like (as Vilam vomited/trolled out). That's just fucking stupid. Not using extra features or not appreciating at a glance how they are beneficial is fine. Criticizing the fact that extended features are available is just immature fanboy bullshit. How dare OSX allow for support for up to 64 customizable trackpad gestures!

Tell me you see the ridiculousness in that.

 

[numble]

:lol

Step back for a minute and actually read the tripe you've posted in this thread. You're a joke poster. Excuse me for getting in the middle of the Apple splooge fest.

You want a good example of context / touch sensitive technology? Look at the button on the Zune. There's a nice use of touch technology without forcing it on the user. I've never seen anything imitate that sadly. It's the only time I've ever used touch technology without wishing I was clicking a button instead - probably because it still felt like one rather than a completely flat pad.

The trackpad on the Macbook isn't a completely flat pad though--it's a mechanical button that clicks.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

The Apple trackpads are awesome. The surface area is larger than most other pads, and the multiple touch gestures are very nice to have. Having to never remove your hand to push something sounds confusing and silly at first, but once you use it it is almost impossible to let it go. Their trackpads are so well regarded they started selling them to use with the desktops too.

Go use one for a decent amount of time before piling on the senseless and juvenile hatred without a rational thought or discussion to the issue.

 

[Vilam]

Have you ever really used an apple trackpad? Seen how intuitive and easy the gestures are (barring the app-specific ones mentioned before)? Realized that the entire trackpad is button, which supports right click with a second finger, and is much more intuitive, practical, and efficient than having separate buttons?

Who exactly is circling the wagons, when your complaint is simply that it has no buttons, which A.) isn't actually true, B.) isn't a valid criticism by itself?

The Apple trackpad is widely considered to be miles ahead of other trackpads, and it's not because of Apple fanboys spreading propaganda or brainwashing people.

No I haven't used one for an extended period of time, but I did try someone else's briefly. I don't like the feel of a flat plane that you perform lots of different actions on. That's why I liked Zune's implementation where the touch sensitive area was on the curved surface of a button - it allowed me to frame the area I was doing everything in and felt far more natural.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

The Apple trackpads are awesome. The surface area is larger than most other pads, and the multiple touch gestures are very nice to have. Having to never remove your hand to push something sounds confusing and silly at first, but once you use it it is almost impossible to let it go. Their trackpads are so well regarded they started selling them to use with the desktops too.

Go use one for a decent amount of time before piling on the senseless and juvenile hatred without a rational thought or discussion to the issue.

Out of curiosity, have you ever read the book Don't Make Me Think? It's ostensibly about web UI primarily but does contain a lot of interesting lessons which apply to general principles of interface design.

It outlines quite succinctly why the gestural interface described above is problematic. Usable interfaces need to be designed around consistency, and having a whole swathe of gestures which only apply under certain circumstances completely violates that fundamental principle which Apple usually does extraordinarily well with.

Simply put, I don't think that it's juvenile or irrational to question the value of such a feature. The OP is just overly sensitive to any disagreement, and chooses to either ignore people who challenge their assertions or launch a massive ad hominem attack against them. So who is being juvenile again?

 

[numble]

Out of curiosity, have you ever read the book Don't Make Me Think? It's ostensibly about web UI primarily but does contain a lot of interesting lessons which apply to general principles of interface design.

It outlines quite succinctly why the gestural interface described above is problematic. Usable interfaces need to be designed around consistency, and having a whole swathe of gestures which only apply under certain circumstances completely violates that fundamental principle which Apple usually does extraordinarily well with.

Simply put, I don't think that it's juvenile or irrational to question the value of such a feature. The OP is just overly sensitive to any disagreement, and chooses to either ignore people who challenge their assertions or launch a massive ad hominem attack against them. So who is being juvenile again?

The gestural system is on top of the same system on all other trackpads. You can use the trackpad like any other trackpad, but it gives you the option of more, if you want it.

If people want to use gestures, Apple provides tutorials embedded into System Preferences to show people in a second how to use the added features:

 

[Bboy AJ]

The only people who should post fervently on the subject we've ventured to are people who have extensive experience with the subject matter in question. I'm tired of reading incomplete, uneducated posts with such strong opinions.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

The gestural system is on top of the same system on all other trackpads. You can use the trackpad like any other trackpad, but it gives you the option of more, if you want it.

If people want to use gestures, Apple provides tutorials embedded into System Preferences to show people in a second how to use the added features:

That's fine, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I was just making the point that, from a UI design perspective, the reaction which the OP responded to so aggressively is actually the expected reaction for that type of UI.

Also, the fact that Apple felt the need to include tutorials built in to the system preferences feature indicates that they're aware of this too. As a general principle, if you need to teach your users how to use a feature of your interface then you might want to reconsider your implementation.

In principle I think that the intent of the Mac OSX gesture system is a really positive one, I'm just not convinced that the specific implementation is necessarily the perfect solution.

 

[numble]

That's fine, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I was just making the point that, from a UI design perspective, the reaction which the OP responded to so aggressively is actually the expected reaction for that type of UI.

Also, the fact that Apple felt the need to include tutorials built in to the system preferences feature indicates that they're aware of this too. As a general principle, if you need to teach your users how to use a feature of your interface then you might want to reconsider your implementation.

In principle I think that the intent of the Mac OSX gesture system is a really positive one, I'm just not convinced that the specific implementation is necessarily the perfect solution.

That's silly. People had to be taught how to use a mouse. Even the Wii or Kinect has tutorials.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

That's silly. People had to be taught how to use a mouse. Even the Wii or Kinect has tutorials.

It's not silly actually, it's a principle which has been established through more than a decade of analysing user interactions with UI. And your examples don't really work, because those tutorials are about how to interact with the hardware device, not how to utilise the device to interact with a UI.

 

[numble]

It's not silly actually, it's a principle which has been established through more than a decade of analysing user interactions with UI. And your examples don't really work, because those tutorials are about how to interact with the hardware device, not how to utilise the device to interact with a UI.

No, the Wii and Kinect tutorials are about how to utilize the device to interact with a UI. Especially when they're teaching you how to aim the Wiimote at buttons on your TV screen.

You're very silly to compare UI design of webpages to hardware functionality. "Don't Make Me Think" is premised on the idea that we don't have time to pour over webpages, we scan them and click on huge nicely labeled buttons. He will still concede that it's okay to let people think to get more out of a webpage than the average user.

Until we get computers powered by voice, we still need to learn how to use things, whether it is a keyboard, a mouse, or a multitouch trackpad, it is good UI design that Apple put half-second tutorials in an easy to understand manner, when people want to do more. You need to think to learn a little bit if you want to do more and work faster, but the stuff you've previously learned is still there. You can still move the mouse cursor and click "Back" instead of swiping with your fingers if you want.

 

[funkystudent]

Dell looks nice but the large holes on the vents ether side of the keyboard ruin it.

Looks like a cheese grater or something

 

[jim-jam bongs]

No, the Wii and Kinect tutorials are about how to utilize the device to interact with a UI. Especially when they're teaching you how to aim the Wiimote at buttons on your TV screen.

Again, that's a function of the new hardware, not the UI. They are being taught how to use the wand, not that pressing a button will do something.

You're very silly to compare UI design of webpages to hardware functionality. "Don't Make Me Think" is premised on the idea that we don't have time to pour over webpages, we scan them and click on huge nicely labeled buttons. He will still concede that it's okay to let people think to get more out of a webpage than the average user.

Exactly. Which perfectly illustrates the point which I was making; that finding that type of "make me think" interface horrible is a common trait of "the average user", so the overly defensive reaction from some posters here was unnecessary.

And no I'm not very silly to do so, it's my job, but thanks for being condescending. Anyway, there is a reason that the web got so many people comfortable with using computers for the first time, and it's the same reason that many software companies are looking to the web for UI tips.

Until we get computers powered by voice, we still need to learn how to use things, whether it is a keyboard, a mouse, or a multitouch trackpad, it is good UI design that Apple put half-second tutorials in an easy to understand manner, when people want to do more. You need to think to learn a little bit if you want to do more and work faster, but the stuff you've previously learned is still there. You can still move the mouse cursor and click "Back" instead of swiping with your fingers if you want.

Once again, yes this is true. It doesn't change the fact that the average user, most of whom don't even know the keyboard shortcuts for copy and paste, will find it daunting.

 

[numble]

It's not condescending to say someone is silly for saying an optional feature that improves workflow "problematic" or claiming that it is rational to question the value of the optional feature.

Is saying "silly" a big insult in UK/Europe? I think someone in another forum also said I was putting down users by saying their ideas are "silly." It's really not that offensive in the US.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

It's not condescending to say someone is silly for saying an optional feature that improves workflow "problematic" or claiming that it is rational to question the value of the optional feature.

Is saying "silly" a big insult in UK/Europe? I think someone in another forum also said I was putting down users by saying their ideas are "silly." It's really not that offensive in the US.

I'm not overly offended

It's just that there's a difference in civilised debate between saying that you find an idea silly and saying that the purveyor of the idea is silly. I was actually rather enjoying this discussion so my apologies. It was pretty hypocritical of me to be all defensive about that in retrospect, given that I was making a point about other posters being needlessly defensive.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I was making a point about other posters being needlessly defensive.

This is fair.

I guess I just get frustrated when I see dishonest posters with clear agendas put down things just for the sake of doing it. I think if Apple proclaimed water to be wet, some fanboy somewhere would disagree just because Apple said so. It's irrational. That kind of rabid fanboyism is so unnecessary and unwarranted.

I think it frustrates me so because I'm not a fanboy of any company. If you scroll up (or go back a page) I go on at length extolling the virtues of HP Elitebooks and Dell Precision laptops. I've been a Windows user of 20 years and a Mac user of just 1. I have no problem citing my issues with Windows or OS X. Perhaps this is because I do not attach my state of being to whether or not a competing product has a feature or two that may be better than what I own. Where objectivity gives way to fear of potential inferiority. I guess I've grown out of that phase. But that's why it is so frustrating. It's like watching 360 fanboys disregarding Gran Turismo without ever playing it because of whatever stupid reason. Or watching PS3 fanboys disregarding Forza 3 without ever playing it. Any objective person can see the stupidity and fear in those kinds of attacks.

It's been obvious in this thread. At some point, you see enough of it. Vilam's comment dismissing the enhanced customization of the Mac track pad triggered my break-limit. It was so absolutely fanboyish. So unnecessarily ignorant yet unapologetic in its purpose and transparent in its agenda. Such may pass in his circle of like-minded fanboys, but not in the broader collective of intelligence that is GAF-proper.

There's nothing wrong with being wrong. But what you're wrong at a fundamental level for no reason other than fanboyism (aka: fear), don't expect to be treated with warmth.

Otherwise, sorry if any of my past comments read as anything more than a generally objective person trying to slap some sense into someone disinterested in being objective. Anyone who's used a Mac trackpad knows it is a transcendent experience. The sooner Windows is designed to take advantage of multitouch in the same way, the better. I say that as one who enjoys his Windows PCs daily. The OSX trackpad is one of the truly defining features of OSX.

 

[Scrow]

my 13" macbook air is the best computer i've ever used in my life to date.

no fanboy shit. for years i was an apple naysayer (this is my first apple product), then i played around with a friend's 11" MBA and was completely sold on it. trackpad is godly, customisable gestures are schmick, UI/OS is snappy.

it's simply the truth. a great combination of hardware and software.

expensive? sure. but it's nice to have the BEST of something, even if it lasts for only a year or two. i appreciate technology enough to make it worth the cost.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

no fanboy shit. for years i was an apple naysayer (this is my first apple product), then i played around with a friend's 11" MBA and was completely sold on it. trackpad is godly, customisable gestures are schmick, UI/OS is snappy.

it's simply the truth. a great combination of hardware and software.

think you for the support. as well as to numble and others.

it's no more fanboyism to recognize that the Macbook Pro trackpad is a transcendent trackpad than it is to recognize the Elitebook DreamColor 2 laptop display is a transcendent display. Both are objectively, demonstrably true.

I'd buy another MBP for the trackpad. I'd buy an HP Elitebook for the superior display.

 

[genjiZERO]

why are PC laptops always so gaudy looking?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

why are PC laptops always so gaudy looking?

not all are. at the risk of sounding like a broken record:

ThinkPads, Precisions, Elitebooks, Vaio Z's all look very refined, reserved and polished.

it's the consumer grade lines that they put the bling, bling on. Fake chrome on top of plastic and shit. I think it's done in order to appeal to the sensibilities of teenage boys and man-children. flowing lights, skulls, colorful lights.

 

[Bboy AJ]

why are PC laptops always so gaudy looking?

Only Apple and Sony consistently and regularly take care when designing electronics.

 

[Stridone]

Only Apple and Sony consistently and regularly take care when designing electronics.

Yeah, enjoy your fancy designs, I prefer durability.