How are American interests are furthered by listening to the phone calls of Angela Merkel?
You can use hypotheticals if you want.
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Der Spiegel: US bugged Angela Merkel's phone from 2002 onwards
- Thread starter Jackpot
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You can use hypotheticals if you want.
Legendary_Red
Banned
Gotta stop that 4th Reich somehow!
It's important to know what other countries, even our allies, are saying to other countries or even about ourselves. Say we're negotiating some agreement with Germany and they seem totally for it but we intercept some communication between them and France or Saudia Arabia in which the clearly express that they have no intention of honoring or going through with this agreement. Clearly, intercepting their communications help us there.
Or say we are tracking some terrorist who we believe is hiding out in Germany, we ask the German intelligence for any information regarding this suspect and they state that this person isn't in Germany or that they have no information regarding the suspect. Yet, later on we are able to intercept information that confirms he is in the country and that the German intelligence is tracking his movements without telling us for various reasons.
Communications regarding a foreign diplomat are always relevant to another power, including allies. Every country knows this and it's why every country has a spy agency whose job it is to obtain the information. The Brits spy on us, we spy on them, the Germans spy on us and vice versa with regards to every country, its how the world works.
Now, what could be possibly concerning is the extent the NSA is surveying the average citizen of these countries. After all it is pretty well excepted that as a diplomat your communications and movements are being tracked, but your average French citizen doesn't assume some foreign power is tracking his phone calls. Now again, the NSA holds no allegiance or protection for a foreign nationals privacy interests but there is a debate concerning such sweeping surveillance of the average citizens of these countries. Again, it is pretty much agreed upon that as a politician or a diplomat your communications are fair game but for the average citizen of these countries there isn't much of an understanding there.
But again, the NSA tapping Merkel's phone is exactly the thing we want them to do, conducting surveillance on US citizens for extended periods of time without warrants is a different story.
Fucking how.
Because people within the US are protected by US laws.
PJV3
Member
They just get the British to do it and pass the information over.
The spirit of which laws don't aspire to universal human rights?
Presumption of innocence should only apply to US citizens? It's a gross attitude and outrageous policy.
Like we live in a world Angela Merkel could declare war on US any day now.
Well thats how the US operates. Although these days US laws dont seem to protect americans either.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Shame on you America.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
????
This isn't some Cold War Kremlin official who poses an existential threat to the US. The leader of a NATO member state is hardly someone to warrant suspicion justifying this kind of bull.
So you think it's a reasonable concern that Germany is secretly plotting with Saudi Arabia to break treaties it signed with the US?
Also, if Germany doesn't intend to honor the treaty, why are they signing it?
You think Germany hiding terrorists is a real concern?
And what would we do if we find they are?
Do a drone strike in Germany?
I'm not saying the US shouldn't spy on anyone, I'm saying it shouldn't spy on Germany.
Yeah, the US has done it for a while, and what does it have to show for it?
The history books are open, a lot of that stuff is declassified, we've gutted our diplomatic corps and pissed a whole bunch of people, and for what?
What great advantage in dealing with France, the UK, Germany or Australia did the US gained from any of that cloak and dagger crap?
God damn.... this would cause another economic crises; everyone would be too traumatized to work.
The US shouldn't spy on anyone, the amount and type of information they can gather is too sensitive.
They can intercept data about new developing technologies, and then release them as there own earlier then the guys who invented it. They can use the information to their advantage, counter any unwanted competition, give an upper-hand to american companies with close ties to the government.
Present day US is possibly the worst thing that happened to the world lately.
wuxian fengguang
Neo Member
I'm thankful that America has essentially given other nation states its implicit approval to commit various form of espionage on other 'friendly' nations! I'm sure my country can do great things with all the corporate, military, political and scientific secrets we are now implicitly allowed to extract from the United States.
Do not impose on others what you do not desire others to impose upon you.
Do not impose on others what you do not desire others to impose upon you.
A lot of countries are going to stop using US based services and spin up their own, or go to local replacements that exist already. The US probably won't remain the epicenter of the internet for much longer.
Brazil has already talked about passing regulation to force American IT companies to store data locally where it is harder to systematically tap. Life will get a lot more expensive for Google, Microsoft etc. if they have to sustain a local presence if a large number of other countries follow suit.
Overall, the fallout will be very similar to cablegate. Embarassment, noticeable quietening down of pro-US politicos. A chill on IT infrastructure projects involving american companies - probably the spying on Petrobas and other commercial stuff the NSA did will have more harm.
Everyone is which is making me laugh. Only when you're the top is it somehow bad.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Good! The NSA is doing its job. Spying on Americans is what's crap. But spying on the Germans? That's what they're there for. I'm glad my tax dollars are being put to good use.
Sure, close the US bases. As if they started out being there permissively in the first place. And nuke the local economies while you're at it.
Sure, close the US bases. As if they started out being there permissively in the first place. And nuke the local economies while you're at it.
No, everyone isn't tapping Angela Merkels phone, or the UN. Just the US.
You don't spy on friends. I don't believe the "everyone does it" narrative for a second. It's the excuse 12 year old children pull when they are caught doing something they shouldn't have.
NullPointer
Member
If I read that the Germans were intercepting our President's phones since 2002 I would be upset at our nation's communication security, not at the Germans doing the spying.
Of course, the story being public would make me expect lots of recriminations and gnashing of teeth and "how could you?"s, but thats only because the easy to digest narrative is that countries are either friends or enemies, like the people we know in our own social circles.
But they're not. Everybody spies on everybody. Nations represent a myriad of overlapping and competing interests, public and private, that may have an affect upon our interests and aspirations and lives.
Of course, the story being public would make me expect lots of recriminations and gnashing of teeth and "how could you?"s, but thats only because the easy to digest narrative is that countries are either friends or enemies, like the people we know in our own social circles.
But they're not. Everybody spies on everybody. Nations represent a myriad of overlapping and competing interests, public and private, that may have an affect upon our interests and aspirations and lives.
theignoramus
Member
Can you imagine the indignation if the Germans were found out to have bugged a US president's mobile phone?
Roland1979
Junior Member
Don't worry, Europe isn't ready yet. We will attack 30-50 years from now. I mean, zeh secret plans! Oh noes!
Russian spies probably outnumber almost any countries spy's in The Netherlands 8 to 1 or so, so...
Or his Twitter or Facebook account?
DerZuhälter
Member
Since 2002 until now? Wow someone really loves her Nokia 6310!
fierrotlepou
Member
Why should she care if she has nothing to hide?
Same. Everyone's playing the game, it's their job to defend her.
Escape Goat
Member
Hot phone sex with Tony blair.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
lol, considering the US bases are like the sole reason why the local economy of where they live exist...
I dare you to go to those business people and say they will lose their jos. do it
RobotChant
Member
Everyone is playing their part.
What would be most outrageous is if the Germans really didn't know they were being tapped. That would be something to get riled up about, if you're a German citizen. It's not as juicy as big bad US doing bad things, of course. But how did the US breach German security?
What would be most outrageous is if the Germans really didn't know they were being tapped. That would be something to get riled up about, if you're a German citizen. It's not as juicy as big bad US doing bad things, of course. But how did the US breach German security?
There are no area codes for mobile phone numbers in Germany. We do have codes for the different providers. But most allow you to keep your old number. I've also been using mine for 10 years now.
teruterubozu
Member
Sounds like Bush was creepin'.
Would you care if someone tapped your phone for 10 years?
fierrotlepou
Member
nope
Are people really this naive?
You honestly don't think there are spying agencies that are tapping phones for high profile politicians in the US?
Nah, it's just the evil US. No other country in the world would ever think to set up agencies in which their sole purpose of existence is to gather foreign intelligence.
How does this happen.
You honestly don't think there are spying agencies that are tapping phones for high profile politicians in the US?
Nah, it's just the evil US. No other country in the world would ever think to set up agencies in which their sole purpose of existence is to gather foreign intelligence.
How does this happen.
Broder Salsa
Banned
So much victim blaming in this thread!
I do wonder if her reaction is to save face, as everyone spies on everyone. The only appropriate reaction is to be outraged, even if she knew and was only feeding certain information.
I mean, really -- if I'm trying to keep things quiet I don't talk on the phone that people know about it. You gotta be like drug dealers, with disposable phones you break and throw into trash cans.
I mean, really -- if I'm trying to keep things quiet I don't talk on the phone that people know about it. You gotta be like drug dealers, with disposable phones you break and throw into trash cans.
ridethepiggy
Banned
She shouldnt care. It's like Obama with his birth certificate. Show it if you have nothing to hide.
ridethepiggy
Banned
Everyobe just loves blaming the U.S. Are you surprised?
I'm also relatively sure that we're not discussing the torture of prisoners or killing innocent civilians- We're talking about gathering intelligence, which we all know every country is engaged in but few know to what extent. Do people think that these humongous agencies, all with equally enormous budgets, aren't engaging in similar actions? It's just the United States?
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Smarter spying is tuff, better go with more spying to FEEL safe!
Hey Obama,
I found someone who got something to hide aka a terrorist. Please take care of this user. Thank you
Yours, Jimi
paradise_circus
Member
There are still some contracts between the USA and Germany which legalize these things. She shouldn't act so surprised.
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