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Desgining games that appeal to women
- Thread starter Sapphire Dreams
- Start date
Yes, iOS games are designed for the monolithic entity "women." Men are trickier because a) we're obviously too sophisticated for the facebook/iOS/casual fluff that women all love and b) we tend to have different tastes and behave as thinking individuals. It's a tough one!
Good Christ. And people are wondering why more women don't get involved in discussing gaming...
HolyBaikal
Banned
There is absolutely nothing wrong with making games to women. The majority of games today are developed to appeal to men at the sacrifice of alienating female audiences.
This is especially so if they're done in a legitimate fashion.
More female protagonists would be a good thing. And there's a reason many feminists are clamoring for it.
As well, more games need to pass the Bechdel Test.
Female characters aren't going to be very appealing to people if they're transparent, token, and pandering. It shouldn't be so much to ask that a female character be important and respectable and get the same level of depth and characterization and the male characters.
Despite having issues of sexism, much like any genre of video game, Japanese RPGs do a pretty good job of appealing to women. Despite still primarily being directed to the teenage boy demographic.
Pokemon is popular with women and girls. It's still about battling monsters, but isn't overly macho as to turn many girls off. It allows you to play as a female character. And generally is a pretty balanced game franchise in terms of gender representation.
Games like the Tales franchise are imperfect, characters like Milla Maxwell and Presa are kinda sexualized and I didn't like that. You wouldn't see Gaius or Wingul going around in those outfits. And yet the franchise is very popular among women and continues to be. The gender representation is pretty good. Almost every team of protagonists in Tales games are equal male and female. If you'll notice, in pretty much every Tales game, protagonist or not, there is an attempt to flesh out around an equal amount of male and female characters. Bishounen also abounds in Tales games, which certainly doesn't hurt their popularity among women.
You glorious, glorious fangirl bait, you.
This is especially so if they're done in a legitimate fashion.
More female protagonists would be a good thing. And there's a reason many feminists are clamoring for it.
As well, more games need to pass the Bechdel Test.
Female characters aren't going to be very appealing to people if they're transparent, token, and pandering. It shouldn't be so much to ask that a female character be important and respectable and get the same level of depth and characterization and the male characters.
Despite having issues of sexism, much like any genre of video game, Japanese RPGs do a pretty good job of appealing to women. Despite still primarily being directed to the teenage boy demographic.
Pokemon is popular with women and girls. It's still about battling monsters, but isn't overly macho as to turn many girls off. It allows you to play as a female character. And generally is a pretty balanced game franchise in terms of gender representation.
Games like the Tales franchise are imperfect, characters like Milla Maxwell and Presa are kinda sexualized and I didn't like that. You wouldn't see Gaius or Wingul going around in those outfits. And yet the franchise is very popular among women and continues to be. The gender representation is pretty good. Almost every team of protagonists in Tales games are equal male and female. If you'll notice, in pretty much every Tales game, protagonist or not, there is an attempt to flesh out around an equal amount of male and female characters. Bishounen also abounds in Tales games, which certainly doesn't hurt their popularity among women.
I'm looking at you, prince Richard.
You glorious, glorious fangirl bait, you.
This is an opinion-based subject matter. It's not some worldly fact that the video game industry needs to shape world culture lol.
What makes your opinion on this subject any more valid? So let's say the video game industry stays the way it is... so what?
Now you're just turning into a sarcastic smartass with everyone. Not sure why this subject is so upsetting with you.
Funnily enough usually that sort of shit crops up because they want a game to hit more people, though this is generally a context dependent problem. Samus's Zero Suit in Other M getting stupid pump heels bugged me far, far more than Ada Wong's outfit because the latter's going for ridiculous in a setting that (at least in RE4) had gotten increasingly ridiculous so there's something of a camp value there, whereas Other M ruined what made relative sense in the past for someone's own sexual preferences. Nevermind the bigger problem that there's ALWAYS people into some crap, but that doesn't mean you should just throw it in without it making any damn sense (nevermind stuff that perhaps shouldn't be done period.)
Anyways, echoing what others said: work more on not unnecessarily excluding them first and foremost, there's actually arguments to be made for GTA being the way it is to some extent but that doesn't apply universally. If they won't like it they won't like it, and that's the same for everyone regardless of gender or age, but you can at least not chase off those that ARE interested but haven't fully plunged in already if it's not an integral part of the work anyway.
travisbickle
Member
I think the question should be designing games that don't just appeal to a particular sub-category of males. I'm a male and I don't touch war games, and the games that seem to get the most attention for being "anti-women" come from that macho war game genre with lots of violence and very deliberate "manly" themes that border on coarse and misogynistic. The other part is the online community and the language they use.
Games are about skill, beating your opponent, getting high scores, and having fun. They don't necessarily have to be about shooting virtual people in the face, stabbing them in the neck, dipping your virtual balls into their virtual dead face whilst swearing at your opponent over the internet.
Games are about skill, beating your opponent, getting high scores, and having fun. They don't necessarily have to be about shooting virtual people in the face, stabbing them in the neck, dipping your virtual balls into their virtual dead face whilst swearing at your opponent over the internet.
Ding Ding Ding !
I think my opinion is more valid because a) it's at least minimally informed b) I'm capable of imagining a world that exists outside the confines of my own skull and c) I can consider an issue as encompassing greater subtlety than a simple "yes or no." I think I've got you beat on all three.
Why can't games be both super fun and a part of our wider culture? Do only some things - literature, classical music, a few TV shows, some movies - get to be part of culture, and then all the games and Barbies just sit off to the side?
The video game industry, like the movie industry, has already changed to reflect a wider range of experiences. Isn't that a good thing? What if all that was offered was a Call of Duty-esque perspective on patriotism and masculinity? Call of Duty would still be just as fun, but gaming would be much poorer for throwing out the full range of human experiences that seem to be fair game in any other medium. Women, at least the ones I know on here, seem just as interested in playing all kinds of different stuff as I am. They potentially have just as many games to make, games to buy, and games to play as you or me. There are plenty of women who have us beat on all three. Why shouldn't we all support that?
He made a silly comment, one that you see all the time - "women are all like x!" You make a sarcastic comment to show how ludicrous that comment is.
It's not so much upsetting as discouraging. Your blithe dismissal that this is even an issue because you're not bothered speaks to this sad level of narcissism that exists in our culture. Not only do your comments seem informed solely by your own narrow life experience, but you're actively AGAINST being exposed to anyone else's. That's just really, really sad to me.
DukeTogo1300
Member
Hmm, how shitty. Trollolol?
He actually said, "shaping and commenting on", alluding to an organic relationship between the industry and society that seems to exclude females, and actual females that enjoy gaming are bothered by the situation.
As for that second paragraph; I'm seeing the opinion-card coming out. You can't argue validity of an argument if you don't actually engage in that argument. You shrug at this topic so much that I just don't understand why you bothered to join the thread in the first place.
Either recognize that you are little more than a distraction in this conversation and move along, or try a little harder to follow along. Believe it or not, your perspective relates to this topic in a pretty major way. Any potential breakthrough with guys like you gets us one step closer to the awareness necessary to deal with the problem. If the status-quo continues to be aloof of their selfish narcissism, appropriately mixed subject-matter will continue to be too risky for publishers.
I'd say, make more games like the Persona games with a FeMC, or a reverse Catherine, where the charm of the game all comes from the characters. Let them collect husbandos. Let them juggle cheating on two men. I'd say that the Persona team's focus on character-driven games makes their appeal pretty universal, and reversing the male-oriented traits of the games would create titles that are far more appealing to women as a whole, than a niche subset of everybody. The average women has nowhere near the fascination of the enthusiast gamer with action-driven games. But things that hit dem feels? Market a game right, and all of a sudden, games are all about the feels as the great big market that is women finally gets tapped.
Don't let this ever come between me and my Persona games. Don't do it Atlus. Don't take my waifus away.
how is it trolling? its not like im wrong.
Pretty much every girl/woman i know is planted on their iphone/ipad.
Im not saying there are not gamer chicks who play cod or final fantasy or whatever. But the vast majority are playing those iOS games. So they clearly appeal to women.
Whats next, im going to be called a troll for saying wii sports appeals to women as well.
DukeTogo1300
Member
Hey, sorry about the T-word, but it really came across as an opportunistic dig for laughs.
If that was not your intention, I do apologize.
From my experience women tend to like different types of games. There is no game that can be catered to women in general as they have different likes. I work in a game store and about a third of the women who come in like COD, sports and games like that. Another third likes games like Mario Bros, RPGs and rhythm games. Then there is the last third that likes to watch others play but do not play themselves. But then again I can find these traits in the male gamers that come in as well. I have one particular customer who only likes games that deal with puzzles.
thesolidshark
Member
I wouldn't know either.
Answers like this are generally the best way to go, I think.
And hope they make the kind of games that put positive lighting on female/general character characterizations. If they end up making great puzzle/racing/etc games with no discernable character to identify with, I hope they still get recognition.
Here's the thing though, there are PLENTY of games other than Call of Duty. I'm not going to bother making a list, you seem like you would be informed already.
It's just that CoD and GTA sell the most in the industry of full console/PC games (not counting social/mobile games which has already been discussed).
So given the fact that I'm sure you realize there are already non-CoD type games, is your objection really with what consumers *choose* to buy? If so... who are you to comment on what another person chooses to purchase for themselves?
I actually have no objections to games like Beyond being made, even though I have no interest in it whatsoever. But like someone else in this thread already stated, let the free market work and see how sales go. If more people are interested in CoD/GTA than Beyond, then so be it.
The argument is shifting here. You're not sticking to your guns. You don't care; then it's about how games are just meant to be fun, and how silly it is to think of them as part of our larger culture; and now it's a question about the free market? So you don't care, but it doesn't matter anyway, and whatever, the market has already spoken? How many different ways can you dodge the issue?
I have no objections with what people choose to play - I just wish there was more cool stuff available for EVERYONE to play. Gaming has been such a big part of my life, and I wish there were more games bringing different kinds of people in to the fold. Having more people playing games is good for all o us.
I can go in any bookstore and easily find literature about just about anything. I can go to the movies and find stuff to watch with my wife, or to take my kiddo to, or stuff to see with my buddies, or stuff that leaves me thinking about x, y, or z... Gaming does not feel the same, not yet. It's changing, but it's not there. I do not understand your "why does this matter to anyone? Why are we talking about this?" attitude. I'm not saying to burn the whole thing down and scrap all of the future Call of Duties and GTAs - I want them as much as you do. I just know a lot of people who are interested in gaming but feel like the culture surrounding it is hostile to anyone but white, male, 18-24 year-olds.
It's a chicken and egg problem - are the games not there because the audience isn't there, or is the audience not there because the games aren't there? I don't know what the solution is, but it's certainly not covering your ears and shouting "IT'S FINE FOR ME!"
This is the answer.
Not true, there's a forced love story in every big budget movie for a reason.
Just like to say that my lady is a massive fan of the Ryoga Gotaku (Yakuza) series, so... Now what? Hmm...
I think it's tough when comes to "generalisation" because part of the problem comes down to the catalogue of games available on the platform and the image/branding of the machines. For examples, many girls got a Wii because they enjoy the games that the platform offers, such as Just Dance. Many purposely didn't purchase the Xbox because of the "hardcore" image it portrays which communicate the type of games you will generally get for it. Also, the machine itself is not appealing in terms of looks either. Now you would think that thanks to the kinect and the positioning of Xbox being an "entertainment" device things would be easier for them, but it still isn't the case because the Xbox itself is still seen as something that is too "complicated", something more for boys.
If, somehow, companies like Sony and Microsoft can get rid of that hardcore or complicated imagery/stigma then I believe that would pull in the girl gamers and expose them to games of their liking because there are games out there that they will find appealing. However, another issue IS exposure of the titles too. Most of the key games that girls like on the majority are more in form of digital download rather than retail in % comparison, such as Journey. The savvy girl gamers knows where to purchase these games - hence the reason why they purchased the console to begin with - but not all girl gamers are that savvy. However, in terms of quality of titles that are appealing to women there are not AS many available compared to titles that suit for male gamers. Therefore, the argument is not just a "image" issue, it's also a market issue for developers generally won't create a game if the market is not there to begin with for it doesn't make much business sense.
*sigh... There is just too many things to consider. Too many things got to be untangled in the web... The list goes on and on and the only way to solve it is to start from SCRATCH with a fresh new machine and start paving the way. Hopefully, there will be a machine that caters for all markets and provide a nice neutral impression, both brand, machine and network platform that will satisfy all markets. Unfortunately, a machine like that is yet to be seen in terms of "console" gaming. Maybe APPLE will make that happen once their store has been overhauled as their products are more "every life" usage which is key for success in the general market, but who knows... Decisions decisions; attention to detail all round.
I think it's tough when comes to "generalisation" because part of the problem comes down to the catalogue of games available on the platform and the image/branding of the machines. For examples, many girls got a Wii because they enjoy the games that the platform offers, such as Just Dance. Many purposely didn't purchase the Xbox because of the "hardcore" image it portrays which communicate the type of games you will generally get for it. Also, the machine itself is not appealing in terms of looks either. Now you would think that thanks to the kinect and the positioning of Xbox being an "entertainment" device things would be easier for them, but it still isn't the case because the Xbox itself is still seen as something that is too "complicated", something more for boys.
If, somehow, companies like Sony and Microsoft can get rid of that hardcore or complicated imagery/stigma then I believe that would pull in the girl gamers and expose them to games of their liking because there are games out there that they will find appealing. However, another issue IS exposure of the titles too. Most of the key games that girls like on the majority are more in form of digital download rather than retail in % comparison, such as Journey. The savvy girl gamers knows where to purchase these games - hence the reason why they purchased the console to begin with - but not all girl gamers are that savvy. However, in terms of quality of titles that are appealing to women there are not AS many available compared to titles that suit for male gamers. Therefore, the argument is not just a "image" issue, it's also a market issue for developers generally won't create a game if the market is not there to begin with for it doesn't make much business sense.
*sigh... There is just too many things to consider. Too many things got to be untangled in the web... The list goes on and on and the only way to solve it is to start from SCRATCH with a fresh new machine and start paving the way. Hopefully, there will be a machine that caters for all markets and provide a nice neutral impression, both brand, machine and network platform that will satisfy all markets. Unfortunately, a machine like that is yet to be seen in terms of "console" gaming. Maybe APPLE will make that happen once their store has been overhauled as their products are more "every life" usage which is key for success in the general market, but who knows... Decisions decisions; attention to detail all round.
I think that's the whole fundamental difference between you and me... I am not looking for any solution. I don't think there's much of a problem. This was just a thread I happened to pop into and saw some amusing takes from people. You can check my post history and see I have not participated in any of these female-gaming threads.
I should have clearly stated at first that I actually don't have issues with non-CoD type games. That's where I think you misunderstood me from the beginning, you thought I was actively against female-oriented games.
My take is more that I think the status quo is fine and I wouldn't care if it stayed the same. But if more types of games are developed, that's not going to offend me either.
Bottom line is I believe you take the video game industry a lot more important than me. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just coming from a different perspective: If video games ceased to exist hypothetically, it wouldn't affect my life in the longterm and I'm not going to feel down about it. There are other hobbies and entertainment choices for me. Hope that makes it clear why I don't care too much either way.
Is it because only females like love stories?
Rogue_Ledr
Banned
I've heard this point before and I've gotta say, it makes no sense!
Why should have a game have to be specifically tailored to a woman for her to enjoy it?
Women play the games, presumably for the same reason men do: compelling gameplay.
Therefore if a game has it, the job is already done. It doesn't need some sort of special content or design to make it more appealing to the other gender,
If a woman isn't interested in a particular game, its because she doesn't like the genre or she doesn't like games period. No further recrafting of the experience will change that,
Why should have a game have to be specifically tailored to a woman for her to enjoy it?
Women play the games, presumably for the same reason men do: compelling gameplay.
Therefore if a game has it, the job is already done. It doesn't need some sort of special content or design to make it more appealing to the other gender,
If a woman isn't interested in a particular game, its because she doesn't like the genre or she doesn't like games period. No further recrafting of the experience will change that,
Question - How true is that statement? I don't think it's true at all but it's good to get your perspective unless you were just getting carried away at the moment of typing.
Back to the OP, I almost had an irky feeling that Anita Sarkesian was behind the post, which I really hope is not the case. ugh.
True, but only to some extent. It is like argumenet that having a women write female character would guaranteed such character would have compelling personality with no trace of sexism we usually found from male author. While the fact is that many women writers also tend to fall into the same cliche and end up with crap that male writers usually produced. It is not about gender of the creator, but their paradigm and perspective on design.
Callibretto
Member
If I said that girls like cute thing so make a game that is cute like animal crossing or little big planet, am I being sexist?
I remember La Pucelle on ps1 is baing called rpg for girls, it feature cute young girls with cute story of girl saving the prince. Does that game is actually popular with girls?
In this gen we have atelier series that have cute young girls as main character, but now I see more people calling the game pandering to male otaku rather than saying it's rpg for girls.
I remember La Pucelle on ps1 is baing called rpg for girls, it feature cute young girls with cute story of girl saving the prince. Does that game is actually popular with girls?
In this gen we have atelier series that have cute young girls as main character, but now I see more people calling the game pandering to male otaku rather than saying it's rpg for girls.
MissDeviling
Member
Really? The game seems pretty female-oriented... I played some of Ayesha and really thought that guys wouldn't like this game. It was just so sickeningly sweet.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I very much agree that there needs to be more women in the industry.
I think that the movie industry still also has too much of a slant towards the female audience. Or to lengthen that, video, where they are TV shows or movies. Live action, or animated, or so forth. Fictional, or non-fictional.
You can see that bias all over the place. Movies for men are "normal" movies. But movies for women are "chick flicks". Or, to reference the My Little Pony phenomemon. Little girls watching Pixar movies about boys? Totally normal and expected. Males watching My Little Pony? Totally strange and unusual. Decline of the nation.
It also amuses me how, here in the United States, it's considered that "women like romance, men like action". While in Japan there's entire genres of animation dedicated to pandering to men's romantic fantasies. It would be ridiculous to assume that "cartoons far for kids" is an American rather than a Japanese thing, as well, because from what I understand, anime isn't the most mainstream hobby ever in Japan. But I definitely don't imagine something like Toradora being made in the United States.
When I look at some overseas entertainment, like Asian entertainment, I actually see a little less of what the United States would call machismo. There's certainly Wuxia and the like. There appears to be this clear and intense market, at least as a niche in Japan for romantic fiction catering to guys. And as deep as I am in the fandom, and as far removed as I've been from the American mainstream media for many years, I'm always surprised to be reminded that, in at least some cultures, romance is seen as a "girly" thing in entertainment. I'm used to hearing about romance being "pandering to lonely men." As in "gee I'm sure glad that Attack on Titan exists, a proper action anime with plot. I'm sick of all of these rom com animes appealing to men."
And for Asian live action, certain action shows or things devoid of romance exist, but all I ever hardly hear about or see come out of the industry is romance drama shows. Those "jdramas" and "kdramas" you keep hearing about. Almost entirely about romance. It almost seems cultural, the idea that romance stories are "girly" or appeal to women more than men.
Though the fact that just hearing that romance in stories in American movies is done to appeal to women rather than men, probably shows just how out of touch with the pop culture of my own country I am. It's been 10 years since I paid attention to American pop culture, I would have hoped that "men love action, women love romance" had stopped being a thing by now.
In any case I feel that we both agree that things need to change for video games. And that movies may be going to a greater length to cater to women than the video games industry.
I run into that perception A LOT. I don't think it's exactly true, either - the industry is so large now, and with indies yada yada yada...but evangelizing for games can be hard when there's a perception, reflected in this very thread, that the industry has no place for women (or plenty of other groups).
I feel like a lot of jrpgs have been doing pretty well on this front, at least in terms of having a solid female fanbase. I probably wouldn't know that well, but the majority of my female friends who play games will play exclusively jrpgs. I am included in this, although I do play western games on occasion, especially indie games and the Jak series, which I grew up with.
I think it'd be difficult to tell why I like the games I do, but if I had to nail it down to one thing, it'd be the characters. I feel like Japanese characters are a lot more free to emote and express (to the point of being, well, pretty unrealistic), and be well...wacky and zany, while a lot of Western games focus on realism and creating realistic characters, and the art styles and characters that go with that tend to turn me off, I'm obviously only one person so I can't speak for everyone, but I'd say that general trends seem to show that games with more varied and bombastic casts as well as a less realistic art style seem to have the most female fans (see: Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Tales games, Phoenix Wright).
I think it'd be difficult to tell why I like the games I do, but if I had to nail it down to one thing, it'd be the characters. I feel like Japanese characters are a lot more free to emote and express (to the point of being, well, pretty unrealistic), and be well...wacky and zany, while a lot of Western games focus on realism and creating realistic characters, and the art styles and characters that go with that tend to turn me off, I'm obviously only one person so I can't speak for everyone, but I'd say that general trends seem to show that games with more varied and bombastic casts as well as a less realistic art style seem to have the most female fans (see: Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Tales games, Phoenix Wright).
thesaucetastic
Unconfirmed Member
Good lord, some posts in this thread are just vile. Don't use your own spin on biology to justify your preconceptions.
Anyway, female gamers are just as diverse as male gamers. There are some who like shooters and others who abhor them, some who love RPGs and others who think they're mind-numbingly boring. Different strokes for different folks and all that. You don't necessarily have to focus on mechanics for this problem.
What I think most can agree on is that female representation in AAA games is pretty dismal. Women exist outside of their boobs/vaginas, people! Seriously, the best fan service is the kind that leaves at least a little to the imagination. And give her a reason to fight that exists outside of romance/whatever some man in power tells her to do. And throw us a bone once in a while with a compelling, playable female protagonist.
You also don't necessarily need a women to design games to fix the problems. You just need someone with an iota of sense to realize that men and women are, shockingly, not that different. Especially with what they react to emotionally.
Anyway, female gamers are just as diverse as male gamers. There are some who like shooters and others who abhor them, some who love RPGs and others who think they're mind-numbingly boring. Different strokes for different folks and all that. You don't necessarily have to focus on mechanics for this problem.
What I think most can agree on is that female representation in AAA games is pretty dismal. Women exist outside of their boobs/vaginas, people! Seriously, the best fan service is the kind that leaves at least a little to the imagination. And give her a reason to fight that exists outside of romance/whatever some man in power tells her to do. And throw us a bone once in a while with a compelling, playable female protagonist.
You also don't necessarily need a women to design games to fix the problems. You just need someone with an iota of sense to realize that men and women are, shockingly, not that different. Especially with what they react to emotionally.
Sapphire Dreams
Member
Lol what ? I no, I despise her views.
LOL! Same here...
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
why would women be interested in designing games for women?
Same here OP. As much as I cared about gender equality, her view is not to my liking.
I also thought that isn't an answer. I mean an effective, long term one. By that logic, most romance novels wouldn't have mary sue protagonist, but we know how it turned out to. I mean, being woman doesn't automatically make them better at creating something that represent their gender. This is fiction, or entertainment creative media we talking about. What we need is shift of perspective and paradigm on game design.
The biggest dislike in games is often its community, so in order to make games more appealing for all would mean designing game communications, player interactions and balance so, that is awards players that are able to play nicely with others. Provide some ingame carrot that helps players to move away from the "male centric" thinking into more open and inclusive mind set, for example voice chat as one of rewards.
Answering to OP.
You are assuming that all women are the same and want the same, what's not even remotely true, same as assuming that CoD appeals to all males, all males aren't the same too.
We all have different tastes, problem with gaming industry these days, that they forgot that. We actually mostly get games that appeal to certain, large group of people ignoring all other humanity, women or men.
You are assuming that all women are the same and want the same, what's not even remotely true, same as assuming that CoD appeals to all males, all males aren't the same too.
We all have different tastes, problem with gaming industry these days, that they forgot that. We actually mostly get games that appeal to certain, large group of people ignoring all other humanity, women or men.
Prime crotch
Banned
Dressing and shopping games, females like that, right? I saw one, once.
Only realistic answer. It is either that or nothing
HolyBaikal
Banned
Ugh. Everyone always distances themselves from Anita Sarkeesian.
fixed
That is what this really is about. Todays games are sexists because it is men that design games for themselves. Men like tities = more titties in games.
Women like cocks = more cocks in games?
Rise of the video game cock, I can't wait for it. GTA V step aside.
Dumbs posts like that are the reason why discussing this sort of subject always ends up with locked topics and banned people.
Devs don't design boobs because they like them, they design boobs because their costumers like them.
Women and Men like different things.
