More_Badass
Member
Thought this was an interesting video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZp0ETdD37E
http://miegakure.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZp0ETdD37E
http://miegakure.com/
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Designing a 4D world, the tech behind puzzler Miegakure
- Thread starter More_Badass
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John Kowalski
Banned
I've seen his videos, i've heard his talks, and i still can't understand it.
More_Badass
Member
I think the Flatland comparison in the video made it a bit easier to comprehend
Oh, now this is intriguing. Free movement in a fourth dimension is something I don't think has been attempted before, but it's certainly not inherently non-viable - in abstract terms we've done something similar with toggling between finite extradimensional states quite frequently - look at 2D games like Xeodrifter (two planes) and Mighty Flip Champs (multiple planes) for games that effectively have a third dimension through the planar switching mechanic. You could probably argue that there's a number of areas in 3D Mario games which toggle between two states on a certain trigger (I'm thinking specifically of panels that flip when you do a spin-jump in Galaxy and 3D World, but there's other examples) - but all those work between a finite number of discrete states.
Having free roaming in a fourth dimension is fascinating. The big difficulty compared to representing a third dimension in a 2D game, though, is in how to make that fairly visible to the user, and that's going to be its own challenge. At the simplest possible example, imagine having to traverse from point A to B in the fourth dimension with a pit in between? As a game designer you'd have to figure out how to represent that pit in the context of the visible dimensions, and that's no mean feat.
A puzzle platformer's a good idea, because it lowers the chance of needing a reaction-based approach to this; take out the skill requirement and it heavily lowers the need to represent the problems of free travel in a fourth dimension.
Having free roaming in a fourth dimension is fascinating. The big difficulty compared to representing a third dimension in a 2D game, though, is in how to make that fairly visible to the user, and that's going to be its own challenge. At the simplest possible example, imagine having to traverse from point A to B in the fourth dimension with a pit in between? As a game designer you'd have to figure out how to represent that pit in the context of the visible dimensions, and that's no mean feat.
A puzzle platformer's a good idea, because it lowers the chance of needing a reaction-based approach to this; take out the skill requirement and it heavily lowers the need to represent the problems of free travel in a fourth dimension.
Ohh man, I've been waiting for this! According to the dev's twitter, the game's pretty close to finished. I'm so psyched!
Eh... But there is no explanation offered to explain what the 4th axis represents. Just that we "can't perceive it" and it "isn't time".
I doubt when playing this game that we will actually be moving freely across an additional axis. Rather, it will just be scripted puzzles and linear manipulation of the environment.
I doubt when playing this game that we will actually be moving freely across an additional axis. Rather, it will just be scripted puzzles and linear manipulation of the environment.
Feral Gingy
Banned
What's with all these puzzle games lately? The average gamer ain't no genius nor does he/she want to become one. Is there some new demand for brainier games now that I don't know about?
Regardless that gif looks interesting.
Regardless that gif looks interesting.
It's a 4th spatial dimension. That we can't see because we're in 3 dimensions. The game is only rendering in 3D graphics, but providing us with a representation methodology that provides slices of 3D space.
Basically, we're too 3D to understand 4D on any intuitive level.
More_Badass
Member
Huh? The puzzle games never stopped and have always released at a regular pace. It's definitely not a recent trend
For anyone who's confused, here's a video that helps explain how this works.
John Kowalski
Banned
This game has been in development for a very very very long time, it's a distant cry from contemporary trends.
No, it is actually pretty simple to describe additional spatial dimensions if you use pure mathematics. You can create as many spatial dimensions as you want and accuarately track movement through them with a computer. The problem lies in visualizing this movement. This game is thus trying to depict such four-dimensional space via slices of three-dimensional space, much as how Fez let you explore a three-dimensional space via slices of two-dimensional space.
Ehh, Fez doesn't work like that. Fez flattens an entire 3D space into a 2D plane based on the camera angle, it doesn't do any slicing.
LouisaFerre
Member
I don't really understand. What is it supposed to represent? It's just another theoretical axis, extrapolated from the way the three we experience relate geometrically. As far as the video said, the objects in the game world are internally represented using objects on a 4 coordinate system. They procedurally generate 4D objects to populate the game world, and what we see of the level on screen is a 3D "slice" of that 4D world, which can be thought of as being made up of infinite 3D slices in the way that a cube is made up of infinite 2D slices or squares. The game isn't intended to display objects from a 4D perspective, since we have no way of perceiving that, but rather it's intended to give a mathematically legitimate experience of moving along the 4th dimension. That means not moving in a 3D space, but moving between 3D spaces. It's a little more complicated than that, though, since that gives the image of like, moving between rooms in a house when it's more like you're moving your 3D cutaway or perspective through the 4D world, and as such that 3D world you see appears to distort and change, but it's not distorting. It's just that you shifted to another 3D slice or space within the world.
This looks like an incredibly interesting project, but until I see some more concrete stuff I'll file it under "amazing tech demos".
Give me a solid puzzle platformer with this concept though and I'll buy it in a heartbeat. If they can come up with a good way to integrate 4D into puzzles and movement it'll be a hell of a game I feel.
Give me a solid puzzle platformer with this concept though and I'll buy it in a heartbeat. If they can come up with a good way to integrate 4D into puzzles and movement it'll be a hell of a game I feel.
Oh is that right? It's been a while since I played it. Still, the basic concept is the same: it is possible for a 2D character to navigate a 3D space with the right method. Therefore, it is also possible to have a 3D character explore a 4D space.
LouisaFerre
Member
Honestly, it wouldn't do much to solve the issue. The issue is that we have no visual point of reference for a 4D space, so we have to come up with representations of moving in that space while only visualizing three dimensions. They essentially had to find a way to bring a section of that game world down to a 3D cutaway or frame that we could navigate in. That's where the complexity lies, because we're trying to cut away something we can perceive from an object that we can't. once we have a 3D point of reference, putting that on a 2D screen isn't any more difficult than it is in any other game.
As 3D limited beings, we are not able to perceive anything higher than 3 dimensions. That's why trying to visualise a Tesseract doesn't really work outside of math.
You could argue that one experiences 4D because we are moving through planck frames one at a time, though the likes of Stephen Hawking may define that as "cute".
This is just mumbo jumbo marketing to promote what seems to be an intriguing game for sure. It's been on my radar for quite a while.
You could argue that one experiences 4D because we are moving through planck frames one at a time, though the likes of Stephen Hawking may define that as "cute".
This is just mumbo jumbo marketing to promote what seems to be an intriguing game for sure. It's been on my radar for quite a while.
potatohead
Member
Great! I hadn't been following development or anything, so I had no real idea that this was so far along. That's fantastic.
More_Badass
Member
Reminds me on paper mario for the wii.
I first played it in 2009. I have a build from Oct 2010; I'm one of the very few outside his inner circle to have one as far as I know. It's a fantastic game.
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