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[Twilight Gap]

Have to agree with the OP. I played through the two expansions right before TTK went live and I enjoyed it then and I enjoyed TTK story missions but I'm stuck at around Nd 240 light level and got tired of grinding so I just quit.

At that level, you're really just grinding Strikes or Court of Oryx looking for drops. I didn't like it either because I had to equip lousy weapons to keep leveling up. But that kind of grinding had a clear path in sight with rewards that were usually progressing and empowering your character. Once you reach the end game, it becomes a horizontal min/maxing grind because vertical progression is tied to loot that is "special" and not loot that is "better".

 

[Kurt Angle]

For me, the launch version succeeded almost completely on its own terms, it was the best Bungie game since the 90s. Of course like most other AAA games all the mediocre cash-in DLC "content" since then has lowered the average quality of the game. But more importantly, DESTINY WAS BAD AT BEING A SPREADSHEET MMO, A GRINDY LOOT GAME, AND A TALKY COMIC BOOK GAME BECAUSE IT WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THOSE THINGS. But those three things are all that some fans in the social media echo chamber could understand so now we have a game that pursues those "goals" with true mediocrity.

how was it not a Grindy loot game when you had to drive around planets farming spinmetal and moon dingleberrys to upgrade your guns?

it was a grind fest before and they added more grind to it

 

[Troy]

I hate that they essentially killed three or four strikes by not updating them for inclusion in the end game strike playlist. PoE was also a nice horde mode diversion that they threw away.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Not in terms of endgame. It's pretty grindy. Like worse grind then vanilla. And the pvp is pretty bad.

For the average players the game is alot friendlier. Like Luke said, we are the 1% of the 1%.

 

[E92 M3]

Bungie needs to stop nerfing things. It's ruining the game for me. Stop nerfing and start balancing things. Taking away something is just shoving the problem under the rug.

The weapon parts nerf is mind-boggling stupid.

The raid loot is pushing me towards the edge. I'm sick of getting loot lower then my light lvl and the same loot week after week(3 gauntlets in a row). I need to feel like I'm progressing.

Oh YES; I've been saying that Bungie is obsessed with nerfs for years. Make something useful, don't take features away.

At the end of the day, just separate PVP and PVE or make weapons have different modes.

 

[everyday math]

For the average players the game is alot friendlier. Like Luke said, we are the 1% of the 1%.

I don't give a shit about them. We play the game as well. We understand this game.

Those points hurt the average player as well. Hurts them a lot more then the 1% actually. So I'm not sure what your defending here.

 

[Twilight Gap]

For the average players the game is alot friendlier. Like Luke said, we are the 1% of the 1%.

According to PSN trohpies, the average player doesn't make it to the end game, and probably doesn't come anywhere near the min maxing game.


^ lol damn.

 

[P44]

Close range chainsaw doesn't work well in a game where everyone can double jump and blink around.

Shotguns need way higher range to be viable in PVE activities. The damage falloff should be dramatically different, so the OHK of a shotgun is at super close in-your-face range, but they're still viable at mid range too, just with a wider spread. Can't tell you how many times I've died because I thought my shotgun could hit something that it couldn't.

They already have a slow ROF. That + No range means most people are either camping or slide-shotting, both tactics of which aren't fun. Most folks I know hate shotguns because you can't counter them. If shotguns had more range but different damage falloff, and they were 2hk weapons like pulse rifles (remember, slow ROF), they'd be a lot more fun for people who shoot them and die to them.

But that's why I'm saying give them closer to the ideal kill times that you need to hit precision shots for, but reduce their range further. Now you have a weapon that does you over in 0.7 - 0.8 seconds if you let them get close/don't dance around well.

Totally agree on shotguns being two shot kills. That would vastly improve a lot of the secondary weapon meta, sidearms as much as I like them would become more viable, fusion rifles too, snipers haven't changed.

 

[Kyne]

My two roommates just got the game about 2 weeks ago and they think it's amazing.

One of my other friend has ran the raid 2 times, and is already light level 303. I would consider him a casual player, but he's already at a decent light level and can do anything in the game. This point used to take MONTHS of grinding in year 1 to get to.

I agree that PVP is in shambles atm, but it's nothing that they can't/aren't working to fix.

The people who are complaining about the economy nerf are the minority, which GAF is actually a big part of.

Handcannons need to be SLIGHTLY rebuffed, sunbreakers need to be slightly nerfed on the armor front, and the shadowshot glitch needs to be fixed. Those 3 things would make pvp a lot more enjoyable/balanced.

The game is fine. It's a lot better than it used to be.

 

[RichiRamjag]

For the average players the game is alot friendlier. Like Luke said, we are the 1% of the 1%.

It is at first glance, then the grind hits sooner or later and you realize what the game is based on. I've got a mate who was fresh, but he's starting to feel the grind as well.

 

[lt519]

For the average players the game is alot friendlier. Like Luke said, we are the 1% of the 1%.

This a bajillion times. This happens every DLC release cycle. People LOVE THE GAME, play it for 100 hours, then start bitching about how it's become a grind. Name one game where getting from level 98 to 99 or going from top 20 to top 10 on a leaderboard isn't a massive grind. The sad part is there is zero need to grind at all. Nobody has to be 310. I plan on strolling into Hard Mode raid at 305 (which I accomplished by doing 2 full raids and like 3 partials) and being just fine. And you don't need to grind CoO to go from 240 to 290. You can do ANY activity to get there. Just play the game, that's not really a grind. If you can't enjoy the game and play it to slowly progress then go play something else. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

[sweenster]

The only thing i'm really annoyed is the RNG on damage and defense values for raid gear. Having to go through RNG just to get the item was enough, but having it be shitty/worse than what you have is straight up frustrating. Also, a lot of the problems are because the Nightfall isn't giving out anything good, which they have said they are working on

 

[Hawkeye 131]

For the most part I'm enjoying it, but like a lot of issues with the game it's been two steps forward one step back. Taken King as a whole is pretty good but there's still a few issues with the game. The beginning of the SABRE strike is ridiculously hard sometimes largely depending on whatever enemy spawns at the start. The loot/RNG system is a lot better but I've received some of the same items multiple times over now, also top-tier PvP players still get shafted in terms of rewards, I literally went 32-0 in one game and got absolutely NOTHING for my triumph. Also I played through the entire Iron Banner event all the way to Rank 5 and only got the Titan's mark! The weekly Nightfall never seems to reward anything even remotely half decent and isn't even worth the hassle anymore since both the XP buff and faction reputation bonus are gone. The heroric strikes don't reward any strange coins so there's no reliable way to acquire them anymore. Also it'd be nice if we could get some of the old strikes back into the rotation and if the three of coins actually did something useful, (because they sure feel useless at the moment). Nathan Fillion is amazing however, the story is still very... uninspired, cliche and kinda meh, then again the 'actual' story of TTK is just like the rest of the game i.e. hidden away in the grimoire cards continuing to be locked away on B.net. It's still the most incoherent, uninspired and ineffective way of telling what little of a 'story' is actually there to begin with in the first place. It's pathetic and an absolute joke that this is how they decided to handle the a game's storytelling in 2015. It desperately needs to change ASAP, especially for Destiny 2 and any future expansions/DLC. The story is still the weakest part of the game IMO and its a damn shame considering the potential Destiny has.

Also they REALLY need to get rid of the disgusting chromatic aberration post-processing effects (or at the very least give us a on/off toggle in the options menu) and the unnecessary white wash that covers and obscures 75% of the screen whenever Taken enemies are around. It's like somebody jizzed all over the screen.

Forgive the rant, but like I said two steps forward one step back.

 

[igordennis]

But that's why I'm saying give them closer to the ideal kill times that you need to hit precision shots for, but reduce their range further. Now you have a weapon that does you over in 0.7 - 0.8 seconds if you let them get close/don't dance around well.

Totally agree on shotguns being two shot kills. That would vastly improve a lot of the secondary weapon meta, sidearms as much as I like them would become more viable, fusion rifles too, snipers haven't changed.

Seriously, shotguns should be a 2 shot kill unless the guy is literally touching you. Its ridiculous that shotguns have been as useful as they have been in pvp for 1 year with no fix in sight. The stats are probably like 70%+ use shotguns and you'd have thought Bungie would nerf them into the ground considering how they like their data and nerfs.

 

[Shito]

For the average players the game is alot friendlier. Like Luke said, we are the 1% of the 1%.

Or they could try to address the people playing at end game as well.
The majority of the people I'm seeing at the tower are +290s, I'm not so sure we are that much of a minority...
It's really quick getting there, even for a more casual player.

 

[RichiRamjag]

This a bajillion times. This happens every DLC release cycle. People LOVE THE GAME, play it for 100 hours, then start bitching about how it's become a grind. Name one game where getting from level 98 to 99 or going from top 20 to top 10 on a leaderboard isn't a massive grind. The sad part is there is zero need to grind at all. Nobody has to be 310. I plan on strolling into Hard Mode raid at 305 (which I accomplished by doing 2 full raids and like 3 partials) and being just fine.

You keep saying this, but I don't get it, you're either grinding strikes or you're grinding crucible. The game is based on leveling and acquiring gear and leveling that gear. Mixing it up helps, but if you are not working toward something, (gear, mats, SCs, etc) then you're standing around or not playing. The main competitive pvp mode even requires you to grind out wins to buy the gear.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I don't give a shit about them. We play the game as well. We understand this game.

Those points hurt the average player as well. Hurts them a lot more then is actually. So I'm not sure what your defending here.

Seeing it from the point of view of a casual/average player, they don't give a shit about the end game. I'm talking about the people who will never raid or do Trials or even Iron Banner.

So then it comes to question why Bungie is putting their resources into what they put their resources to. Why should Bungie work on the end game to make it better for us when we're not the main audience that they're aiming for? So what ends up happening, the end game is too shallow, and they punish us by fucking over 'the economy' by making us grind more. Sword Quests? Grind fest. Sleeper Stimulant/Black Spindle? Time gated. These are aimed at punishing the hardcore player.

I'm not defending anything, I'm simply playing devils advocate. I understand why Bungie is doing what they're doing(In terms of PvE and end game), but I disagree with it. To the average player, the casual player who logs 2-3 hours a week, this will never be a problem because they don't play enough to notice the problems.

Or they could try to address the people playing at end game as well.
The majority of the people I'm seeing at the tower are +290s, I'm not so sure we are that much of a minority...
It's really quick getting there, even for a more casual player.

Is it worth to Bungie to address these problems, or is it better for them to extend the grind? That's exactly what the weapon part nerf was for. 'Fuck you for maxing out all your weapons easily, go grind some more you fucker.' is what they were saying when they nerfed the economy for weapon parts. So damn stupid. But that's their plan to keep us hooked-We feel a need to try out a new weapon(IE the Pulse Rifle), those of us who USED the services that weapon parts were needed for are now punished, so we go back to farming weapon parts.

I know the game Bungie is playing, and I dislike it alot, but I'm not going to deny that they've made it easier for the average/casual player to enjoy, and therefore possibly get hooked.

 

[XAL]

Bungie needs to stop nerfing things. It's ruining the game for me. Stop nerfing and start balancing things. Taking away something is just shoving the problem under the rug.

The weapon parts nerf is mind-boggling stupid.

The raid loot is pushing me towards the edge. I'm sick of getting loot lower then my light lvl and the same loot week after week(3 gauntlets in a row). I need to feel like I'm progressing.

They have people chasing the wrong things.

Instead of having people chase perfect perk rolls through RNG, they need to have people chasing cosmetics that make their character look badass so they can fulfill the dream of "become legend" by making your character unique (with the ability to create outfits so you can swap and adjust easily). That and having some kind of personal player space where you can decorate with your most treasured weapons and armor sets, hides, enemy trophies, etc.

Basically:

Light Undersuit (conduit for channeling light that makes you strong) - Light/Attack/Defense
Armor - Cosmetic, your identity
Light Runes - Perks (ammo, ability, super, etc)

Example For Rune Slots for Undersuit:
Head: Super Mod, Stat Boost Slot, Exotic Slot
Arms: Primary Mod or Primary Ammo+, Stat Boost Slot, Exotic Slot
Chest: Secondary Mod or Secondary Ammo+, Stat Boost Slot, Exotic Slot
Legs: Heavy Mod or Heavy Ammo+, Stat Boost Slot, Exotic Slot

Then you can have people chase adding more slots to the character so you can have a reload perk + ammo up perk, each of these have small increase to large increase and you can convert old/low tier/repeat runes into a universal currency that you can spend to roll a random rune or use to unlock more slots or to unlocks variants for cosmetics or upgrade your weapons.

As for identifying which exotic perks people have - the particular body part would have a light design effect on top of the armor you're wearing. Inmost Light perk would have horns on a titan, scarab perk thing would have a scarab made of light on the hunter's arm, landfall bonus for warlock would leave a trail of electrified steps. Just some examples on what could be possible.

That way you earn the way you look, you earn your stats, you earn your perks. Instead of relying on RNG for everything.

A man can dream.

 

[Namikaze1]

At that level, you're really just grinding Strikes or Court of Oryx looking for drops. I didn't like it either because I had to equip lousy weapons to keep leveling up. But that kind of grinding had a clear path in sight with rewards that were usually progressing and empowering your character. Once you reach the end game, it becomes a horizontal min/maxing grind because vertical progression is tied to loot that is "special" and not loot that is "better".

Don't even get me started on Court of Oryx. The place nowadays is either dead or the two randoms that finally show up don't know what they're doing or refuses to help. You have to come to the OT and ask for help if you ever go hunting for the fragments from CoO now. You're lucky if you have a random show up in the area who decides to help out. I gave up doing CoO after days of seeing randoms just run by and ignore the place.

 

[CREMSteve]

I think the game is better than ever. Just wish I didn't play it so much, I've run out of things to do.

 

[lt519]

You keep saying this, but I don't get it, you're either grinding strikes or you're grinding crucible. The game is based on leveling and acquiring gear and leveling that gear. If you are not working toward something, then you're standing around or not playing.

The difference is the semantics. You call it grinding and I call it enjoying. If you can't enjoy the means of getting to the higher levels, which is literally playing any game mode (up until 300), then you are right, you should be not playing. Anytime you remove 'fun' from a game then you should stop playing. It's a simple concept; it isn't grinding to people that are enjoying it. If it feels like a job then quit, because its a video game. It's like this is the only video game in the world to some people. Do your weekly raid if you want then go play something else until reset. Why force yourself on content you don't enjoy for meager chances at rewards if you aren't having fun, it's baffling.

 

[Troy]

Or they could try to address the people playing at end game as well.
The majority of the people I'm seeing at the tower are +290s, I'm not so sure we are that much of a minority...
It's really quick getting there, even for a more casual player.

They addressed end game players. They added a bunch of new content in the form of emotes you can buy to use in the Tower with everyone else that has nothing better to do after completing the raid for the week.

 

[hawk2025]

At that level, you're really just grinding Strikes or Court of Oryx looking for drops. I didn't like it either because I had to equip lousy weapons to keep leveling up. But that kind of grinding had a clear path in sight with rewards that were usually progressing and empowering your character. Once you reach the end game, it becomes a horizontal min/maxing grind because vertical progression is tied to loot that is "special" and not loot that is "better".

At 240?

No, you're not. I reached 290 before even finishing all mission-based quests. The grind doesn't start unless you want it to. There's a smooth, constant progression curve with new content all the way to 290, all the way to the Raid, and thus all the way to all the major content in the game with dozens of hours of gameplay. It's true, for that point on it's a game of min-maxing and finding gear if you want to keep playing and keep going. But the main content is expertly designed to take you to level 40, and from 40 to 220-240 or so for a new range of content, and from there to 290 with a mixture of an extensive amount of quests and content all the way to 290. Min-maxing and infusing gear is only as relevant as people make it, and whether or not they decide to chase that carrot. It's an important point to make regarding whether or not it's worth putting hundreds of hours into Destiny, but it should be divorced from the main discussion of content and gameplay.

The problem with this thread (as evidenced by the necessary title change) is that it's haphazard in how it phrases and presents its arguments. Which, honestly, I'm a little surprised about: You and I went through this less than a week ago in the TTK thread, and I figured you would have sharpened your argument by the time it became a dedicated thread.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

At that level, you're really just grinding Strikes or Court of Oryx looking for drops. I didn't like it either because I had to equip lousy weapons to keep leveling up. But that kind of grinding had a clear path in sight with rewards that were usually progressing and empowering your character. Once you reach the end game, it becomes a horizontal min/maxing grind because vertical progression is tied to loot that is "special" and not loot that is "better".

Don't get me started on how they fucked over blue drops. The choice they made, that alot of the blue drops earned in strikes or CoO are already decrypted, only serves to extend the grind. Suddenly your cryptarch isn't leveling up, thus choking out the supply of engrams gained from leveling him up.

It's all for the damn grind.

 

[yanipheonu]

I dunno, I'm having fun with the end game. There still issues like the continued lack of matchmaking and certain drop rates, but it's hard to complain.

I really don't see anything worse than Year One, where every gun looked the same, you didn't even have the benefit of quests after you were done the story, we waited months to even get proper non-story mission things to do, and drop rates were SO MUCH WORSE. We went from very rarely getting a legendary, to being full decked in legendaries from drops, and multiple exotics thanks to the Three of Coins.

Some spawns in PVP have had me right in front of an enemy or I've spawned into a new march just to lost two seconds later, but that's like 2 out of many matches. But any given Call of Duty pulls shenanigans like that, personally.

Turns out releasing your online product to thousands of people will have unforeseen problem that will take multiple patches. The narrative from Bungie seems to be them looking at data from gameplay, and struggling to find exactly what to do. And it's hard, just because a reddit or forum post says "x weapon is broken" or "y needs to be buffed" it's entirely possible their data may not support that. I don't envy having to figure that mess out, but Bungie is frankly pretty good at communicating.

I mean, I'm coming off of Guild Wars 2 where, by design, once you get the best loot, they'll never make anything stronger. The combat system is designed in a way that going for pure glass cannon DPS is preferred over every gear set, making multiple pieces of gear worthless. And there seem to be little fixes for this in the future, even with an expansion coming.

That's not the type of game I'm into, so I'm not playing it anymore. But it's entirely possible those issues don't bother you.

Again, no game like this is perfect. Just play until you stop having fun. I've hit a wall myself, probably will finished Iron Banner, maybe run the raid once, then move on to some new November games.

 

[everyday math]

Seeing it from the point of view of a casual/average player, they don't give a shit about the end game. I'm talking about the people who will never raid or do Trials or even Iron Banner.

So then it comes to question why Bungie is putting their resources into what they put their resources to. Why should Bungie work on the end game to make it better for us when we're not the main audience that they're aiming for? So what ends up happening, the end game is too shallow, and they punish us by fucking over 'the economy' by making us grind more. Sword Quests? Grind fest. Sleeper Stimulant/Black Spindle? Time gated. These are aimed at punishing the hardcore player.

I'm not defending anything, I'm simply playing devils advocate. I understand why Bungie is doing what they're doing(In terms of PvE and end game), but I disagree with it. To the average player, the casual player who logs 2-3 hours a week, this will never be a problem because they don't play enough to notice the problems.

Again it hurts the average player.
Weapon parts nerf
Pvp all fucked up.
Harder grind
NF not providing good loot(not sure how many did this)
Faction grind is baddd
Legendary marks being a grind
Back to the old way of planet material grind if you can't get enough marks

Honestly tho I see a lot of players in the 290s and above. I'm not sure where the average player base is at.

They've done a lot of improvements no doubt on that. But I'm feeling the improvements being over shadowed now by some bigger issues.

But you know what? If they don't care about us. Maybe I should just quit. What's the point. Better then being a complainer I guess.

 

[Agrios Endendros]

I'm a day-one Destiny Alpha player with over 2400 hrs logged. I do a weekly podcast about Destiny and am involved in the community. I couldn't agree with the OP's statements more. They hit at the core of Destiny's issues. Destiny has developed a pattern of putting out the best gear in the beginning and has slowly made it all worse and worse as time has gone on. While they have fixed a lot, the gear and reward systems have suffered immeasurably.

A lot of people have said something along the lines of, "You've already played 40+, just play something different." That is missing the point entirely.

The original game contained great replayability, mainly due to the hunt for gear with friends and the surrounding community. Part of the end game gear hunt is mainly to prepare for the next DLC and level increase. With each new release we would race to complete raids and find secrets.

Now though, it seems that most new gear is consistently, very clearly substandard to the gear we have previously experienced and the new systems, economy, and rewards all seem to work against the ways that regular Destiny players want to have fun.

More of a concern than "I'm not having fun still putting in more hours each week on a $40 release that I've already put in 40+ hours on" is how Destiny continually changes the way it functions and what to expect in the future. You work toward goals that precident has set only to have that effort mean nothing when systems are so drastically changed. The only thing consistent about Destiny, right now, is its inconsistency.

There is nothing wrong with a game evolving and improving it's systems but too much inconsistency or under valuing of player's time or efforts by literally taking their rewards away from them or by removing the promised or implied effectiveness of what was earned, is a disheartening experience to say the least.

It wouldn't be as problematic if the longevity of the game and persistence of your original character through this long journey weren't such a selling point. Bungie has said that your progress will 100% carry over to the sequels as well as said things like, "there will be people operating our data operations center 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - they'll never leave - for the next 10 years." and "there will be something new to do every single day."

All of that said, I love Destiny, made great friends, shared awesome experiences and that is why I'm so concerned with the direction Destiny is headed and so let down by its current systems. The biggest problem is that they gave us many of the things that we wanted, we got to experience that, and they have since been taking it all away bit by bit. It really pulls the rug out from under the fun.

tl;dr: I agree with th OP. Destiny started out giving us what we wanted and has been slowly taking it away ever since. Every step forward leads to two steps back and for dedicated players it is becoming frustrating.

 

[sikkinixx]

I played Destiny like crazy until TTK, played it like crazy for a few weeks and since then I've totally puttered out on it. Overall I like the guns I have so there is no need to keep hunting for more since every gun I get I use for an hour then go back to Bad Juju since it fits my play style so well. I'm at 295 (I think) light, so getting much higher requires Raiding which I know I will never do. Even with DGAF it's a hassle to get a group together, I'm either waiting for an hour with no one wanting to do the content I need to do or it's moving so fast by the time I add people and try to join it's already full.

So I'm left with PVP, which is annoying since:
- the map rotation is awful
- the new maps are so-so at best
- spawn locations are borked on a bunch of the new maps (6 times in one game I spawned only to be killed a second or two later OR my other favourite "LOOKING FOR SPAWN LOCATION" for 5+ seconds)
- Sun striker is so fucking OP it's brutal
- The new mark system encourages playing for a match or two everyday so sitting and playing for a few hours once or twice a week as I'd like to do feels counterproductive.

Light didn't change shit either, your level is just 100% meaningless now so it's just a rush to use shitty items until you grind out some exotic shards to merge them into decent stuff BUT if you change your mind and want to use a different exotic piece of armour or weapon, LOL START GRINDIN' THEM EXOTICS AGAIN FOR SHARDS! So I feel locked into the arm piece I have since I've spent a whack of shards getting it to 298.

And having to replay the whole expansion again to get my alternate character up just couldn't feel less worth it.

Overall the game is better than before, the story stuff is better, the quest system (while still annoying to have to load into the tower, chat with a dude for 2 seconds, load back out to orbit, load into the next mission) feels more fleshed out, TTK missions are WAY better than before, the light system makes sense now. Despite all that I think I'm just done with it. Plus I'm pessimistic that Bungie won't exploit the Silver system and throw the whole thing out of whack even more.

 

[Bold One]

the more people complain the more successful Destiny gets, I've never seen anything like it

 

[Dwalls]

For the average players the game is alot friendlier. Like Luke said, we are the 1% of the 1%.

How many of those average players are there? Granted there may be a lot of new ones with the TTK hype phase. Secondly is catering to them really going to cause you to produce a game of a higher quality. Third are those people really your fanbase? I'm friend with several people who've tried Destiny casually, and they're casual about the game because they, as the quite forthrightly told me when I was in the depths of my "addiction" that I should stop playing such a "shitty" game.


If you're in Year 2 and your end-game is still infuriating shit that doesn't seem right to me personally. You've had a year to come up with worthwhile activities for your player-base to engage in that doesn't equate to: grind for some new mats/faction rep we introduced completely bypassing all of the old shit you already have stockpiled because we know you have it stockpiled. Not to mention they keep, repeatedly devalue-ing existing content for the end game so it is permanently in a state of being thin. The only worthwile activities to engage in are always the shit they sold in the latest expansion because that's the only content they update.

And that's the most significant thing that turns me off from Destiny, they don't know how to significantly expand and add onto content that is already there and will instead re-invent the game every few months throwing all of your old progress by the wayside in the most unceremonious of fashions. Their economy is basically in a state of perma-fucked ( despite the lack of actual trading) and the only method they have of fixing it is nerfing drops and adding new currencies.

 

[OneUh8]

The game is light years better than it was in year 1, but the loot drops in the raid and Iron Banner are not that great. I actually enjoy the pvp aspect of Destiny but the lag is almost insufferable. Still love the game, but Halo 5 can't get here soon enough for the competitive pvp itch.

EDIT: The pvp could be better if they rotated in more maps. Limiting the new playlists to TTK maps only is stupid has hell. Hopefully they start adding in more of the year 1 maps into the rotation soon.

 

[Twilight Gap]

At 240?

No, you're not. I reached 290 before even finishing all mission-based quests. The grind doesn't start unless you want it to. There's a smooth, constant progression curve with new content all the way to 290, all the way to the Raid, and thus all the way to all the major content in the game with dozens of hours of gameplay. It's true, for that point on it's a game of min-maxing and finding gear if you want to keep playing and keep going. But the main content is expertly designed to take you to level 40, and from 40 to 220-240 or so for a new range of content, and from there to 290 with a mixture of an extensive amount of quests and content all the way to 290. Min-maxing and infusing gear is only as relevant as people make it, and whether or not they decide to chase that carrot. It's an important point to make regarding whether or not it's worth putting hundreds of hours into Destiny, but it should be divorced from the main discussion of content and gameplay.

The problem with this thread (as evidenced by the necessary title change) is that it's haphazard in how it phrases and presents its arguments. Which, honestly, I'm a little surprised about: You and I went through this less than a week ago in the TTK thread, and I figured you would have sharpened your argument by the time it became a dedicated thread.

In the three days before the Raid unlocked, there was no smooth progression curve to hit the light requirement. If there was, I missed it, and I mentioned back then that I did not understand the progression system at the time. It was absolutely not designed to be done in three days, so that grind was self imposed. Afterwards however, playing through the quests was great. It just didn't last long, and I wasn't playing the game more than I had prior to that.

Not sure what part you think needs sharpening. After seeing the Raid, the way they're rolling out quests and the state of the PvP, I'm finding the end game less replayable than Year One. I'm not a player that's putting in 2-3 hours a week and I never saw Destiny as that kind of game; conversely, i'm not playing more than I was in year one because the content isn't worth it.. That's a personal reason and that's fine, but if the game is shifting towards that kind of structure then I'll also be shifting away from it.

 

[Interficium]

Dat thread title change.

 

[silver.tongue]

I just don't like how every single piece of gear needs to be "infused" to be useful. I can't just buy a gun because it's actually not gonna be great until I spend hours getting stuff to infuse it with.

This actually made me not care about PVP and Trials anymore.

Aside from that, I think the game is better than it was before TTK.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Again it hurts the average player.
Weapon parts nerf
Pvp all fucked up.
Harder grind
NF not providing good loot(not sure how many did this)
Faction grind is baddd
Legendary marks being a grind
Back to the old way of planet material grind of you can't get enough mark.

Honestly tho I see a lot of players in the 290s and above. I'm not sure where the average player base is at.

They've done a lot of improvements no doubt on that. But I'm feeling the improvements being over shadowed now by some bigger issues.

Those are end game issues. Those are issues to people who play the game alot, like you or me or Zoba or Nami or Unstable or anyone else who is a part of DGaf. We are in a minority, however. When Luke said that we are the 1% of whatever, it wasn't so much a complement as it was a reality. Heck I wonder how many people read the patch notes? How many people realized weapon parts were nerfed despite not reading patch notes?

I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe more people have done the raid then I'm giving them credit for, maybe more people are stuck in the grind we are. Aside from the improvements made when TTK came out, every patch then has worked towards extending the grind for players like you and me, for players who get on every day.

The hard mode will be the ounce of hope I have for this game. If it's more of the same, with just spongier and harder hitting bosses, than I'll know the answer I'm looking for in regards to Bungie caring about the hardcore base.

How many of those average players are there? Granted there may be a lot of new ones with the TTK hype phase. Secondly is catering to them really going to cause you to produce a game of a higher quality. Third are those people really your fanbase? I'm friend with several people who've tried Destiny casually, and they're casual about the game because they, as the quite forthrightly told me when I was in the depths of my "addiction" that I should stop playing such a "shitty" game.

If you're in Year 2 and your end-game is still infuriating shit that doesn't seem right to me personally. You've had a year to come up with worthwhile activities for your player-base to engage in that doesn't equate to: grind for some new mats/faction rep we introduced completely bypassing all of the old shit you already have stockpiled because we know you have it stockpiled. Not to mention they keep, repeatedly devalue-ing existing content for the end game so it is permanently in a state of being thin. The only worthwile activities to engage in are always the shit they sold in the latest expansion because that's the only content they update.

And that's the most significant thing that turns me off from Destiny, they don't know how to significantly expand and add onto content that is already there and will instead re-invent the game every few months throwing all of your old progress by the wayside in the most unceremonious of fashions. Their economy is basically in a state of perma-fucked ( despite the lack of actual trading) and the only method they have of fixing it is nerfing drops and adding new currencies.

This exact reason is why I believe Bungie is aiming for the casual playerbase-The starting missions in TTK, the item that boosts you to level 25, everything is pretty and everything is good up until the point where you're grinding for a sword or trying to get max light level. Then it just falls apart. The end game activites presented are shallow gimmicks(I'm looking at you, CoO.). The raid is simple after done the first time with no lasting value(Invulnerable boss until damage phase! No player agency in when you damage the boss until you do the thing that lets you damage him...for every single boss.). The grind is still horrible. If the game has a player base of what, 5 million? Then the people who've beat the raid consistently these past few weeks are in the extreme minority, no doubt. So Bungie chooses to aim for the bigger number, whilst hurting the minority more through their changes in an effort to keep that minority playerbase playing. That's what the grindy quests and mats are for-To keep us hooked.

 

[Deku Tree]

Why did the Title get changed?

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

Why did the Title get changed?

Because it was inflammatory and actively detracted from any cogent points in the OP.

 

[Twilight Gap]

Why did the Title get changed?

Title had 310 characters so had to nerf it.

 

[everyday math]

Title had 310 characters so had to nerf it.

Lol
Down to 280

 

[BraXzy]

Why did the Title get changed?

Because it was inflammatory and actively detracted from any cogent points in the OP.

Yeah people were ignoring the points in the OP and really most of the criticism is aimed at end game stuff.

That's the point really, the base game has improved (story mission variety, storytelling in general, quests, actual cutscenes etc.) But the end game has gotten worse.

 

[Unstable]

Title had 310 characters so had to nerf it.

Damn

 

[Kun Aguero]

Destiny's pay to play model is scandalous, I played Alpha + Beta and had the game from day One but I stopped playing just before TTK released after I realised the game was nothing but a cash cow for Activision, I'm glad I did!

If you don't buy the latest dlc the game becomes worthless, you get locked out of virtually everything even after buying the game and the past dlc's.

What sort of a game gives you a new raid, but makes the Two other raids irrelevant? Here you go have another raid, but the old raids are pointless! How does taking Two away and giving you One equal more content lol

 

[Twilight Gap]

Those are end game issues. Those are issues to people who play the game alot, like you or me or Zoba or Nami or Unstable or anyone else who is a part of DGaf. We are in a minority, however. When Luke said that we are the 1% of whatever, it wasn't so much a complement as it was a reality. Heck I wonder how many people read the patch notes? How many people realized weapon parts were nerfed despite not reading patch notes?

I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe more people have done the raid then I'm giving them credit for, maybe more people are stuck in the grind we are. Aside from the improvements made when TTK came out, every patch then has worked towards extending the grind for players like you and me, for players who get on every day.

The hard mode will be the ounce of hope I have for this game. If it's more of the same, with just spongier and harder hitting bosses, than I'll know the answer I'm looking for in regards to Bungie caring about the hardcore base.



This exact reason is why I believe Bungie is aiming for the casual playerbase-The starting missions in TTK, the item that boosts you to level 25, everything is pretty and everything is good up until the point where you're grinding for a sword or trying to get max light level. Then it just falls apart. The end game activites presented are shallow gimmicks(I'm looking at you, CoO.). The raid is simple after done the first time with no lasting value(Invulnerable boss until damage phase! No player agency in when you damage the boss until you do the thing that lets you damage him...for every single boss.). The grind is still horrible. If the game has a player base of what, 5 million? Then the people who've beat the raid consistently these past few weeks are in the extreme minority, no doubt. So Bungie chooses to aim for the bigger number, whilst hurting the minority more through their changes in an effort to keep that minority playerbase playing. That's what the grindy quests and mats are for-To keep us hooked.

I'm glad you're pulling out the stops now.

The thing with the whole weekly carrot is that it does the opposite for me. Grinding Vault of Glass for Fatebringer wasn't ideal, but I knew afterwards I'd get a great gun. We can argue that it was overpowered and it broke the game and I wouldn't disagree with that. But the fact that it was a weapon worthy of playing the Raid every week is what made the original loot system as "addictive" as it was. And again, the game was still worth "grinding" outside of that because it was fun to play. If some people equate "fun to play" with "use OP stuff and trivialize the content", well... they wouldn't be wrong either. It wasn't the entire allure of the original game, but it was part of it.

But this whole system? No, don't string me along and then give me crap after I log on. How do I tell somebody to grind a mission with me and then hand them an underwhelming gun afterwards? Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

[Shito]

I'm a day-one Destiny Alpha player with over 2400 hrs logged. I do a weekly podcast about Destiny and am involved in the community. I couldn't agree with the OP's statements more. They hit at the core of Destiny's issues. Destiny has developed a pattern of putting out the best gear in the beginning and has slowly made it all worse and worse as time has gone on. While they have fixed a lot, the gear and reward systems have suffered immeasurably.

A lot of people have said something along the lines of, "You've already played 40+, just play something different." That is missing the point entirely.

The original game contained great replayability, mainly due to the hunt for gear with friends and the surrounding community. Part of the end game gear hunt is mainly to prepare for the next DLC and level increase. With each new release we would race to complete raids and find secrets.

Now though, it seems that most new gear is consistently, very clearly substandard to the gear we have previously experienced and the new systems, economy, and rewards all seem to work against the ways that regular Destiny players want to have fun.

More of a concern than "I'm not having fun still putting in more hours each week on a $40 release that I've already put in 40+ hours on" is how Destiny continually changes the way it functions and what to expect in the future. You work toward goals that precident has set only to have that effort mean nothing when systems are so drastically changed. The only thing consistent about Destiny, right now, is its inconsistency.

There is nothing wrong with a game evolving and improving it's systems but too much inconsistency or under valuing of player's time or efforts by literally taking their rewards away from them or by removing the promised or implied effectiveness of what was earned, is a disheartening experience to say the least.

It wouldn't be as problematic if the longevity of the game and persistence of your original character through this long journey weren't such a selling point. Bungie has said that your progress will 100% carry over to the sequels as well as said things like, "there will be people operating our data operations center 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - they'll never leave - for the next 10 years." and "there will be something new to do every single day."

All of that said, I love Destiny, made great friends, shared awesome experiences and that is why I'm so concerned with the direction Destiny is headed and so let down by its current systems. The biggest problem is that they gave us many of the things that we wanted, we got to experience that, and they have since been taking it all away bit by bit. It really pulls the rug out from under the fun.

tl;dr: I agree with th OP. Destiny started out giving us what we wanted and has been slowly taking it away ever since. Every step forward leads to two steps back and for dedicated players it is becoming frustrating.

That's a great post.
We're on the same line.

 

[Interficium]

the more people complain the more successful Destiny gets, I've never seen anything like it

If you spend any time on WoW, DOTA, or LoL forums this phenomenon is nothing new.

Any game that transcends the traditional play-beat-trade-in cycle and becomes more of a hobby faces similar criticism. Any small change is a potentially "GAME RUINING" one for players who have hundreds of hours invested.

 

[arimanius]

Yeah people were ignoring the points in the OP and really most of the criticism is aimed at end game stuff.

That's the point really, the base game has improved (story mission variety, storytelling in general, quests, actual cutscenes etc.) But the end game has gotten worse.

I agree with this. Plus the pvp which was already average is now worse than before some how. I've already lost interesting in logging in to play.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I'm glad you're pulling out the stops now.

The thing with the whole weekly carrot is that it does the opposite for me. Grinding Vault of Glass for Fatebringer wasn't ideal, but I knew afterwards I'd get a great gun. We can argue that it was overpowered and it broke the game and I wouldn't disagree with that. But the fact that it was a weapon worthy of playing the Raid every week is what made the original loot system is "addictive" as it was. And again, the game was still worth "grinding" outside of that because it was fun to play.

But this whole system? No, don't string me along and then give me crap after I log on. Ain't nobody got time for that.

Rawr angry Breezy is loose.

The only thing I disagreed with you was that the base game of TTK was better-I should've spelled it out earlier that i was talking from the perspective of an average/casual player, I was being a devils advocate. I've talked to unstable and mentioned in the OT before about how fucked the endgame was and the patches that reflected that.

And yeah, Fatebringer was worth grinding for. I may not like what it did to the balance, but I enjoyed the gun. And like Math said, they should stop nerfing and start buffing.

 

[Shito]

I'm glad you're pulling out the stops now.

The thing with the whole weekly carrot is that it does the opposite for me. Grinding Vault of Glass for Fatebringer wasn't ideal, but I knew afterwards I'd get a great gun. We can argue that it was overpowered and it broke the game and I wouldn't disagree with that. But the fact that it was a weapon worthy of playing the Raid every week is what made the original loot system is "addictive" as it was. And again, the game was still worth "grinding" outside of that because it was fun to play.

Yeah, it's an important point to be made: sometimes broken gear can be a *good* thing for your game, when it comes to PVE.
Chasing after VoC, FB of the Horn were frustrating but amazing at the same time; in TTK I've done the raid once and don't feel the urge to run it more, really. I'll do some more runs eventually, if only to get my 310 artefacts and ToM, but I'm not really feeling the need for it because there's nothing of value to get from it. It's back to how PoE was, meh rewards because Bungie is now too afraid of creating "broken" weapons or armors, even though that's a great deal of why a lot us got hooked on Destiny in the first place.
The game is becoming tame, and Bungie can't seem to understand we want balance in the PVP mode, not in PVE: they are doing just the opposite of this.

 

[GorillaJu]

At that level, you're really just grinding Strikes or Court of Oryx looking for drops. I didn't like it either because I had to equip lousy weapons to keep leveling up. But that kind of grinding had a clear path in sight with rewards that were usually progressing and empowering your character. Once you reach the end game, it becomes a horizontal min/maxing grind because vertical progression is tied to loot that is "special" and not loot that is "better".

And that's okay. When you play the shit out of a game and exhaust its content, it should be about customizing and small refinements on your gear, not a constant upward trajectory. There has to be a cap on power progression somewhere, and it's good that once you've met it, there's still fun things to do.

Also people complain way too much about Sunbreakers. There are ways to deal with them, and they have weak abilities outside their super. Hunters and Warlocks can match and exceed them no problem. Just the super is ridiculous and all that does is make up for a weak game otherwise.

 

[Trickster]

I think the main problem with Destiny in it's current form is that once your character progression reaches a certain level. The incentives to keep you playing just completely evaporate, and the boring old Destiny seems to reappear.

At the start of TTK you have a wealth of stuff to do in the shape of a story campaign, and after that you unlock a ton of questlines to help you progress, along with a lot of "hidden" content on the dreadnaught. And all this is great, much better than anything in vanilla Destiny.

The problem for me comes once you reach a light level somewhere in the 290's ( which is not hard to do ). At this point you will rapidly run into a wall of diminishing returns. At this point, all types of content starts to become much more work to get rewards from. And this just keeps getting worse and worse until you really just need to do very specific things just to min max your character. And lets not forget to mention that all the items you can buy from vendors are only light level 280. So you have to fork over a lot of marks to get these items, and then you have to have higher light level items that you can then burn to infuse these 280 vendor items up to a light level where you actually want to use them.

I hope that the game will see updates in the near future that will introduce systems that will help incentivize players to keep playing the game even if they are at the end game in terms of standard item progression.