Twilight Gap
Member
XB1 and ps4 came with a headset, so no excuse.
The piece of string that came with the PS4 made me not want voice chat, so it was more tongue-in-cheek.
i otherwise agree with that list
XB1 and ps4 came with a headset, so no excuse.
While you're in the world or in the tower? I'm specifically asking about using R3 to invite players you see in the world. I've never done it but don't know how it works since explore (for example) is limited to 3 player fire teams - how could it allow you to add another three players?you can make a 6 man team yeah. Crucible was 6 players
While you're in the world or in the tower? I'm specifically asking about using R3 to invite players you see in the world. I've never done it but don't know how it works since explore (for example) is limited to 3 player fire teams - how could it allow you to add another three players?
Can you compose a group of six players while within public spaces and/or the tower? Aren't you limited to three players in campaign, strike and explore?
I agree.. I didn't play on xbone but I heard there were lots of problems with it. I like proximity chat, etc... As well. Would help make those friends along the way to end-game content so you have ppl to play with. That does need to be addressed.While I do not know what the participation percentage will be, I don't think it will be that high if it stays as is and communication stays as lacking as it is.
OK, so the tower is a place - and the only place in the world (ie. not in orbit) - where you can invite players to a fire team of six through the player interact menu (R3 on the PS4)?I believe you can at the tower or orbit. You will just get an error when you try to launch campaign, strike or explore. Should work ok for Raids (like Crucible)
OK, so the tower is a place - and the only place in the world (ie. not in orbit) - where you can invite players to a fire team of six through the player interact menu (R3 on the PS4)?
OK, so the tower is a place - and the only place in the world (ie. not in orbit) - where you can invite players to a fire team of six through the player interact menu (R3 on the PS4)?
There is another social area in the game calledThe Reef
I'm on team MM, but I have a speculative question. Advanced apologies if too far off-topic.
Did I hear in the IGN vid that the journey through the raid would prepare you for the end of the raid? In other words through the course of the raid, you will collect items and gear necessary to complete the raid? If that is true, then a raid would have to be completed with the same fireteam as opposed to saving at a checkpoint and resuming later with an alternate, since the alt may not have progressed through the previous part of the raid.
Example - 6 people play the raid and make it to the last checkpoint before the final encounter. One player can't play and finish before the weekly refresh, so an alt joins who either never played the raid or only made it to checkpoint one or two previously. If acquired gear along the way is required to win, the alt player wouldn't be possible.
So either an additional matchmaking layer would have to be implemented to account for previous progress in that particular week's raid, or restrict raid completion to the fireteam that originally started it or cancel the fireteam. This would be true regardless of group composition (all randoms, mix of randoms/fireteam or all fireteam)
tldr: If you need to acquire along the way in the raid to complete the raid, the raid would most likely need to be restricted to the original fireteam without complex matchmaking layers. I think this would still work with a restrictive matchmaking mechanic in the game (you may only continue a raid with the original fireteam).
DTR - Down To RaidIt would be cool if you could have a little message over your head in the Tower orsaying "Looking for raiders" or something like that.the Reef
That's the way raids generally work in other games. You can't go from beginning to end in one go. You'll farm bosses along the way, getting geared up to progress further in the future. To be able to clear an entire raid in one go is considered having the raid on "farm status".
But generally, to clear a single raid, you may spend several weeks on just one of the many bosses.
Like say there are 5 bosses in a raid. You could potentially spend several weeks trying just the first boss. Once you get that down and can do it consistently (that boss would be on farm status), you can move on to working on the 2nd boss. Meanwhile, on every reset (every week), you will continue to clear the first boss before working on the 2nd. In the process, you will gear up your team with drops from the first boss.
By the time you make it to the 5th, you would have the previous 4 on farm and would have cleared them every week, which rewards you with loot to make the 5th boss easier.
So you are right. Match making would need to have some more complex filters. Perhaps going by a gear score or such things.
If match making was per boss (or per wing) rather than entire raid, they can gate off queuing based on a gear score for each boss (probably Light Levels or whatever they're called in Destiny).
Thank you, I actually learned a lot from your reply. The one thing I will clarify from my post though is I was wondering if bosses drop items you need to win as opposed to making it easier. In other words, boss 4 drops a piece of armor that makes you invulnerable to a gas/toxic hazard that must be equipped to proceed. Only players who progressed past that checkpoint would be able to proceed (as opposed to having an easier time because boss 4 dropped exotic weapon that boss 5 is prone to).
I appreciate the response!
Thank you, I actually learned a lot from your reply. The one thing I will clarify from my post though is I was wondering if bosses drop items you need to win as opposed to making it easier. In other words, boss 4 drops a piece of armor that makes you invulnerable to a gas/toxic hazard that must be equipped to proceed. Only players who progressed past that checkpoint would be able to proceed (as opposed to having an easier time because boss 4 dropped exotic weapon that boss 5 is prone to).
I appreciate the response!
Because random people can be so absolutely shite at games that you'd rather bash your head into a wall than play with them.
Just ask any WoW player for Looking For Raid horror stories. And the LFR difficulty is rated as content-tourist on the difficulty level.
I like it.DTR - Down To Raid
No reason not to have a matchmaking option these days. They will backpedal on this eventually.
It would be really cool if there was a bar/club where you had to speak through your mic to a bouncer to get in.I like it.
Or have a section of the map in the social areas where only those wanting to raid will hang out.
So if you guys are all ready to go with your premades and have a guild full of people or whatever ready to play at all hours of the day....exactly how does a matchmaking system negatively affect you again?
So if you guys are all ready to go with your premades and have a guild full of people or whatever ready to play at all hours of the day....exactly how does a matchmaking system negatively affect you again?
It doesn't affect those particular players at all. But that's beside the point.So if you guys are all ready to go with your premades and have a guild full of people or whatever ready to play at all hours of the day....exactly how does a matchmaking system negatively affect you again?
That's the way raids generally work in other games. You can't go from beginning to end in one go. You'll farm bosses along the way, getting geared up to progress further in the future. To be able to clear an entire raid in one go is considered having the raid on "farm status".
But generally, to clear a single raid, you may spend several weeks on just one of the many bosses.
Like say there are 5 bosses in a raid. You could potentially spend several weeks trying just the first boss. Once you get that down and can do it consistently (that boss would be on farm status), you can move on to working on the 2nd boss. Meanwhile, on every reset (every week), you will continue to clear the first boss before working on the 2nd. In the process, you will gear up your team with drops from the first boss.
By the time you make it to the 5th, you would have the previous 4 on farm and would have cleared them every week, which rewards you with loot to make the 5th boss easier.
So you are right. Match making would need to have some more complex filters. Perhaps going by a gear score or such things.
If match making was per boss (or per wing) rather than entire raid, they can gate off queuing based on a gear score for each boss (probably Light Levels or whatever they're called in Destiny).
Because if randoms can beat the raid it would affect their elitism status.
Thank you, I actually learned a lot from your reply. The one thing I will clarify from my post though is I was wondering if bosses drop items you need to win as opposed to making it easier. In other words, boss 4 drops a piece of armor that makes you invulnerable to a gas/toxic hazard that must be equipped to proceed. Only players who progressed past that checkpoint would be able to proceed (as opposed to having an easier time because boss 4 dropped exotic weapon that boss 5 is prone to).
I appreciate the response!
I'm in the camp that this issue isn't as black and white as it appears to be. A compromise can be made here, but it's down to whether or not Bungie does it themselves or rely on a 3rd party to do it for them.
TL;DR - the burden is on Bungie to provide a better social, chat and grouping tools if they want to legitimize a raid in a first person shooter.
Just making a stupidly hard 6 man encounter and calling it a day is incredibly short sighted for the long term health of the raid game.
DTR - Down To Raid
Because if randoms can beat the raid it would affect their elitism status.
I have no doubt that randoms could beat the Raid. Anyone who has played the game enough to be eligible to do the Raid will obviously be an experienced player with top gear. The type of players who Bungie think will ruin the Raid for others will NOT make it far enough to even be able to take part in the Raid, only the most dedicated players will, which is why this no matchmaking restriction is stupid.
XB1 and ps4 came with a headset, so no excuse.
Not that it's an important point, but last I checked the game is coming out on PS3 as well.
If anyone is going to really suggest that the reason for not having MM in raids is because one of the 4 consoles the game is shipping on doesn't include a headset in the box...
I'd like to laugh in their face...
There's no fucking comparison between openly offering players a likely terrible experience and making a more functional OS. One is clearly wrong and one is clearly right. The second quote is in regards to people defending Nintendo having most of its Wii U OS navigable via their Pro controller but requiring the Gamepad for all system settings adjustments. Terrible retort, Rafterman, terrible.Maybe you should heed your own words?
Awesome post. This is a new thing for shooters. Much like Firefight in ODST, I have no doubt that Bungie could build a matchmaking structure to fit this experience. But it will take time and testing and iteration that they may not have at the moment. Some things in Destiny are tried-and-true battle-tested cornerstones. Others are gambles, risks, baby steps into unknown territory.Given only a few people in the entire world (The top clan couldn't finish it in 16 hours after all) stands a chance at finishing a Raid in its current states, it's inevitable that people will complain about how hard it is on message boards. With or without a matchmaking tool.
No self respecting or sane developer would blindly make balance tweaks to the game based solely on player feedback. They have a set of internal tools and metrics that can often tell them more than what user feedback can tell them.
After thinking/reading about it some more, I think we need to take a step back here and look at the social and fireteam management tools in the final game before passing judgement.
Thanks to WoW, the word RAID automatically brings a lot of baggage and triggers a lot of mixed emotions within people. Even if a WoW raid is nothing like a Destiny raid by simply calling it a raid is enough to dig up a ton of old wounds for various MMO vets.
I suspect the game as it's currently constructed is distinguishing between an invite/ friend / public built fireteam vs one built by the in game matchmaker .
The match maker built fireteam does not seem to have a lot of group tools(vote kick) Something like that would need to be addressed before a matchmaker raid can be made without a lot of headaches.
I'm in the camp that this issue isn't as black and white as it appears to be. A compromise can be made here, but it's down to whether or not Bungie does it themselves or rely on a 3rd party to do it for them.
Looking over the long term, in game friends will often retire or simply do not have enough time to commit to raids. Having to being someone else into your fireteam when tier 2, 3 or 4 opens needs to be as easy as possible to sustain a healthy raiding environment in the long term.
Anybody who's ever been raiding knows or have experienced this : friends, clan mates, guild mates permanently move on all the time. And as a raid leader you want to find the best possible replacement that fits your team. A lower barrier of entry allows for a larger pool of skilled players to choose from.
Raiding in the traditional sense always had a lot of options available for groups to find/replace members on an off night where the same 6 members were not available.
Having to call of a raid completely because one friend couldn't show up on one particular night is just utterly ridiculous. I think most raiders would agree to at least give it a try if they were one member short on a night - especially in a game like this where there was no severe penalty for dying outside of time.
The quickest way to lose a friend is to leave them out of your fireteam. For a 7, 8, or 9 member circle of friends this can be a deal breaker on some nights.
An in game opt in raid browser would go a long way towards helping fireteams that are a few members short to pick up a replacement.
TL;DR - the burden is on Bungie to provide a better social, chat and grouping tools if they want to legitimize a raid in a first person shooter.
Just making a stupidly hard 6 man encounter and calling it a day is incredibly short sighted for the long term health of the raid game.
There's no fucking comparison between openly offering players a likely terrible experience and making a more functional OS. One is clearly wrong and one is clearly right. The second quote is in regards to people defending Nintendo having most of its Wii U OS navigable via their Pro controller but requiring the Gamepad for all system settings adjustments. Terrible retort, Rafterman, terrible.
I'm sorry but WHAT ?!Raids are “extremely crafted,” six-player
What about other players ?You're on GAF. You will have hundreds of players to play with!
WoW is 10 years old man!And while LFR may have increased the raw numbers of Raiders, WoW's overall population has lowered since it's introduction.
"We want you to be able to find players with just the press of a button and then play with them." -Bungie, 2004
"We want you to form these parties before hand that require a certain amount of people and then press a button and play." -Bungie, 2014
I seriously doubt that you think modifying the Wii U OS to allow the Pro controller to adjust system settings is wrong.No, they are both clearly wrong.
I don't know for sure, but here's what I do know:The experience may be terrible and it may not be, you don't know one way or the other.
For all the bitching about match making in other games I've had both bad and good experience with them, even in WoW. The fact is giving people the chance at a decent experience is better than no chance at all...it's that fucking simple. And the best part is it doesn't effect you in any way, shape, or fashion. It's not like adding a matchmaking system will stop you from running your pre-made groups, now is it?
In Destiny, it's really easy to inspect a player in your vicinity, size them up, and shoot them a message or invite if you think could be a good partner. There are almost always multiple players fighting alongside your Guardian. It really is a special thing for a shooter to have.It seems pretty evident to me that most people in this thread agree that Bungie needs to implement SOMETHING to help people find other players to raid with, be it a modified matchmaking, in game clan tools, or something along those lines. I hope Bungie is listening! I really want raid content to thrive.
Edit: for the record I still think they could just throw in straight up matchmaking and it would be fine.
I understand everyone's frustration about the decision to not have matchmaking in a post-matchmaking world. I also understand the limitations that this places on the activity's adoption at scale.
That barrier to entry - the requirement that you get a group of people together and venture into something that is going to challenge your ability to work together (first) and your thumbs (second) - is a barrier I was willing to erect to preserve the activity goals.
Bleeding edge hardcore groups will invest some significant amount of time in figuring out the encounters and making their way through the Vault.
I fully expect groups to beat Normal mode in the first week its available.
- This is intentional, I'd like any group that is motivated and willing to cooperate to make their way through the Raid on Normal. I've talked some about thumbskill challenge vs. investment challenge vs. cooperation challenge in some interviews, and the Normal Raid difficulty prioritizes cooperation challenge and investment challenge.
I expect Hard mode to take longer.
Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours.
However, the first time through, learning everything and arranging your group will take some hard-to-predict amount of time until some clan releases their strategies on YouTube.
The Vault of Glass is in many ways an activity that will build groups from the disparate people who come together to try and make their way through it. It's very much a team-building exercise.
If you're going to stream it this Fall, please feel free to let me know here. I'd love to tune in.
We store insertion points for you each week.
You can resume where you and your group left off. That way, you can play an encounter or two, call it a night, get back together and pick up later in the week.
Each week, your progress and loot eligibility is reset.
(A given encounter only rewards players once a week)
So then you're asking for a complete overhaul of the current Matchmaking system in the month~ before launch so that players don't have to do anything but queue and wait for their group to be populated. And you don't see how that's even less social than what people are already claiming Destiny to be?
Except Destiny doesn't appear to be made like an MMO where the vast majority of content is just a quest given. Going to mess around in Explore mode would be fine for what you're suggesting but queuing for Raid while in a Strike or Story mission would be quite different from Queue for a raid while doing daily quests in an MMO.
You just told me that people can queue for Raids while they're doing other things.. yet every single console MP mode that has a queue/search requires people to sit in a lobby while the search is conducted and only pulls people who are doing the same. If it's such a simple task then why hasn't anyone made it possible to queue for MP while playing Campaign? It's probably entirely possible but my guess is, it's more trouble than it's worth.
I've said that in-game options need to be improved. The comment that you're responding to was in response to the suggestion that not everyone has a forum community to use. Everyone actually does as Bungie specifically redesigned their entire website to be used as such.
PvP challenge and matchmaking is inherently different than PvE. It's more difficult in some ways but less in others. PvE requires specific builds to compliment players as well as to counter the challenge presented by the content. In PvP, a player or team can be successful even with an inappropriate/subpar build by outplaying the other person. Human vs Human interaction leaves room for mistakes that can be forced and capitalized on. This isn't true of scripted encounters.
It's not the same thing as by talking to people you actually get information about them before you're running the content. You can find out how they like to play, what their class is, what they're build is.. what expectations/goals they have, etc... You literally get none of that information in a matchmade queue.
Queuing for a Strike and finding out that everyone is a Hunter with Sniper Rifles isn't that bad. Queing for a Raid and getting the same thing can be awful if the content requires Titan's Shield Super to survive a boss attack. Or damaging enemy shields requires Void elemental weapons/attacks but everyone placed in your party is Solar or Arc. Being able to learn this information before you start a Raid makes a big difference.
Yes, there is, and its quite obvious what the reason is as they have pretty much laid it out there. They feel that the experience would more often than not be frustrating with random players. Many people including myself disagree with this being a good reason to create a barrier for entry.I don't know for sure, but here's what I do know:
-Bungie is excluding matchmaking from a part of their game that already has matchmaking in every nook and cranny; there's a reason for that
Luke said in his post that you quoted previously, that he fully expects players to be able to beat a raid in well under 3 hours. I dont think its that "fucking long" as you put it. Also, Im not sure why you think opening the mode up to pugs would require some fundamental change to the game, kind of a jump to conclusion there.-The little we do know about raids is that they logistically require 6 active players and that they are fucking long, having built-in resume functionality, so some sort of sacrifice would have to be made, some significant change to the design of this particular part of the game that is NOT trivial
You seem awfully predisposed to dismiss any arguments for match-making "hacks" here, that torch you're carrying must be getting awfully heavy at this point (I love bungie too, but even large multi-million dollar development studios can make mistakes some times)It wouldn't affect me. I wouldn't touch the amateur matchmaking hack the people in this thread are advocating with a 10-foot-pool, and fortunately, neither will the hard-working designers at Bungie. If they roll out matchmaking for raids, it will be done after much deliberation, iteration and testing.
Again, its plainly obvious why they didn't include as they have spelled it out for us. There are plenty of good valid arguments in the thread based on Bungies current reasoning as to why they did not include matchmaking, so there are plenty of things to debate over as far as the legitimacy of that reasoning. I dont see any reason to delay discussion about it, there is plenty we can gather from what they have said to discuss it.Bungie is excluding matchmaking from a part of their game that already has matchmaking in every nook and cranny; there's a reason for that
It's not laziness. It's not stupidity. It's not understood well by anyone who's talking in this thread (aside from those developing/testing it who are under NDAs anyway). Am I going to give them the benefit of the doubt? I think they've earned it with their demonstrated performance. As I said, I'll be happy to discuss at length why this decision is good/bad once we all have those details. Saying it's a bad one right now is just ridiculously presumptuous. That being said, I think brainstorming on ways to make it work will be a worthwhile endeavor, and I'm sure the folks back at Bungie have already been doing the same.
Yes, im glad bungie included that in this game, but it really doesn't apply to the advocacy of not having match making, its still just another hoop to jump through to fill out a raid party.In Destiny, it's really easy to inspect a player in your vicinity, size them up, and shoot them a message or invite if you think could be a good partner. There are almost always multiple players fighting alongside your Guardian. It really is a special thing for a shooter to have.
Luke said in his post that you quoted previously, that he fully expects players to be able to beat a raid in well under 3 hours. I dont think its that "fucking long" as you put it. Also, Im not sure why you think opening the mode up to pugs would require some fundamental change to the game, kind of a jump to conclusion there.
I fully expect groups to beat Normal mode in the first week its available. [...]
I expect Hard mode to take longer
Once your group learns the encounters, you will be able to get through the Raid significantly faster than 3 hours.
However, the first time through, learning everything and arranging your group will take some hard-to-predict amount of time until some clan releases their strategies on YouTube.
16 hours and they failed to clear.
Last time I played, we spent over 45 minutes just cracking the entrance.
We store insertion points for you each week.
You can resume where you and your group left off. That way, you can play an encounter or two, call it a night, get back together and pick up later in the week.
Each week, your progress and loot eligibility is reset.
(A given encounter only rewards players once a week)
In many ways, it represents the premise of the game itself - that this is our journey and story to tell.
No, this is the complete opposite. This is babying gamers and telling them they have to play the game one certain way whether they like it or not.