Support NeoGAF

[Night_Trekker]

edit: (Night_Trekker) because the same team made DXIW, which sucks? an FPS/RPG hybrid isn't the sort of thing that can only be created by an elite team of game-dev superhumans. I fail to see your point.

IW isn't nearly as bad as most people here make it out to be. It's nowhere near as good as the original, but it's cut from the same cloth and I really enjoyed it. If Spector and Smith took another shot at Deus Ex, I'm sure they could do much better.

And maybe I'm alone in this, but I don't have much interest in my favorite creator-driven things being handed off to someone else (anyone from the Silent Hill threads knows that all too well :lol ).

 

[M3wThr33]

IW isn't nearly as bad as most people here make it out to be. It's nowhere near as good as the original, but it's cut from the same cloth and I really enjoyed it. If Spector and Smith took another shot at Deus Ex, I'm sure they could do much better.

And maybe I'm alone in this, but I don't have much interest in my favorite creator-driven things being handed off to someone else (anyone from the Silent Hill threads knows that all too well :lol ).

DXIW killed everything I love about DX. It went back in time and ruined a game retroactively. Also ran over my dog and got me fired.

 

[radios shipping overview]

This thread has guaranteed that I will check out Dead Space.

Also, this may end up irrelevant to DX3, but: why do people bother to defend the on-rails cinematic content-fest from a business point of view? Why is it important to a random gaffer whether this trend is justified because it makes more money? Why isn't gameplay king? Do these people own stock or what?

 

[Acosta]

It really seems like the "negative" features are the only ones that stick in people's heads. Do you just forget the positive features that they're striving to implement?

It´s a new team with a very beloved game, and without any of the original members neither people in key positions with a track that could indicate they have a clue of what they are getting into. Most fans will remain doubtful until proven wrong.

edit: (Night_Trekker) because the same team made DXIW, which sucks? an FPS/RPG hybrid isn't the sort of thing that can only be created by an elite team of game-dev superhumans. I fail to see your point.

Yes, we see plenty of games like Deus Ex, anyone could create one *rolleyes*. The fact that the same team failed with the sequel is a good proof of how damn hard is to get it. How many successful hybrids do you really know?

I guess that Mr "What's with the revisionist history that remembers Deus Ex as a perfect-10" has chosen himself as the defender of the poor Eidos Montreal team. God luck with that.

By the way, it´s funny to read the damage control of the community manager. Yes, Sheldon Pacotti is involved, that is nice, but he is a writer, at best he will draw the correct background and get a cohesive feeling of the original games, which will make even more painful when they fall short at the DESIGN of the game. They don't want anger and overreaction from the Deus Ex fan community? keep quiet, make the game and prove us wrong.

You know, I really, really, really want to eat crow. I really want this game to blow me away and make me think there is a future for these kind of games.

 

[Prime crotch]

If you take the "Deus Ex" and "SS2" style gameplay as gospel it is pretty much a huge disappointment in every respect. And I mean, that is the gist of what people are complaining about, right? Not necessarily atmosphere or plot depth, or even lack of openness, but gameplay depth and complexity. That is sort of what I was addressing.

Who's talking about Deus Ex or even SS2 when regarding STALKER? The genre might be the same but they are completely different games.

Stalker has no stats, no real meaningful game choices that have an impact on your character or your character's development. It has all the hallmarks of a dumbed-down FPS-RPG that people are complaining about in this very thread.

Dumbed-down? Where? Guns are stat influenced and bullets don't go straight to create a more realistic feel of shooting, you have a weight limit along with inventory manager, the game does not hold your hand in any kind of way among with other aspects.

If you take it as a completely different kind of game, then, yeah, that's okay! It's a good, but really buggy, game in that light. But certain vocal people (including fans of the game) frequently conflate and generalize Stalker with other, more complex FPS-RPG hybrids, when it pales in comparison to them in crucial aspects.

People talk of STALKER has an RPG hybrid because it has some RPG aspects but it is it's own game.

 

[Night_Trekker]

DXIW killed everything I love about DX. It went back in time and ruined a game retroactively. Also ran over my dog and got me fired.

:lol

As others have said, as a sequel to Deus Ex it's disappointing on every single front (except maybe the story, which I thought was pretty decent, if too short). But it's really not a bad game.

Keep in mind I only played IW recently. It had been years since I played Deus Ex and when I heard that title music... well, it brought back old feelings.

 

[Fun Factor]

As I remember it, PC Gamer (in the US) was the only mag I remember giving Deus Ex a "great" score (than giving it GOTY). Pretty much all the other mags (as far as I remember) gave it just "good" scores (CGW gave it a 3/5 I believe?). I actually only bought it because of the GOTY edition.

wikipedia

Awards and Greatest games lists

Over a dozen Game of the Year and/or best in its class awards.
...Deus Ex was also awarded "Excellence in Game Design", and "Game Innovation Spotlight" at the 2000 Game Developers Choice Awards and won in the "Computer Innovation" and "Computer Action/Adventure" categories at the Interactive Achievement Awards.[6][46][47] It has additionally received many Best Story accolades, including first prize in the 2006 Gamasutra "Quantum Leap" awards for storytelling in a video game.[48][49]

Deus Ex has appeared in a number of greatest games of all time lists and hall of fame features, placing in the top thirty for most, and in the top ten for many. This includes numerous IGN 100 Greatest Games of All Time lists,[50][51][52] GameSpy's Top 50 Games of All Time,[53] 25 Most Memorable Games of the Past 5 Years,[54] and Hall of Fame,[55] numerous PC Gamer Top 50 PC Games lists,[56][57] Yahoo! UK Video Games' 100 Greatest Computer Games of All Time,[58] and in GameFAQs' Top 100 Games of All Time.[59]

Deus Ex = Greatest game of all time. Every other game eat shit & die.

Anyways speaking of the game, aren't both Warren Spector & Harvey Smith no longer working for Edios?
The original creators of the game, having nothing to do with the game is not a good sign. Having the lead designer mentioning wanting less Deus EX & more Snowblind type of game does not sound promising as well.

 

[gollumsluvslave]

Interesting thread.

Deus Ex, Thief (all 3) and System Shock 1 & 2 are in my top ten games of all time, but there are some reasons as to that that have nothing to do with the quality of the games perse.

Fisrt, back when all these games came out, I was a hardcore PC gamer, and was quite happy to spend hours fiddling wth INI files and new drivers and so forth to get the game to run as best I could.

Deux Ex, when it came out involved a ton of experimentation with graphics drivers simply to get it to not display fucked up textures - I had a TNT2 Ultra at the time!

Dark10x

think one of the issues at hand is simply visual quality, presentation, and demands for polished games. The fact is, the more ambitious a project becomes, the more difficult it is to rope it all in and create something polished. Bioshock was simplified, but offered a MUCH more impressive presentation and level of polish in comparison to the previous Shock games. They may never admit it, but I believe some complexity may have been sacrificed in order to release a polished game.

Totally agreed, and I for one could not go back to all the glitches and messing about with games did back in the day on PC, because I simply don't have the time.

When I get the time to play some games these days, I simply want to play and not deal with problems, and for this a level of polish is essential, and the more complex and ambitious a game is (Deus Ex, Oblivion etc) the more likely bugs and glitches will occur.

The last game I played on PC out the box was Half-Life 2 and it's glitchy sound and load times killed that 1st experience for me - call me spoiled by console games, but the level of polish and glitches (due to the set configuration no doubt) is way below their PC counterparts - even the classics we are talking about here. This doesn't even get into the whole piracy issues which is a large part (regardless of whether it makes any sense) of why consoles are being targetted for these games.

Other things Dark10x was saying about Deus Ex hold true as well - it had a lot of flaws, and similar to how Bioshock improved on some of SS2's shortcomings, it's not out of the realms of possibility that a new Deus Ex could improve upon some of the things that the original wasn't so hot at.

However, if the compromise is to the level of IW, then it's pointless, because it's not even the same game or planet.

Thief 3 is a great example of something I can live with - it was a sharp departure from the open, sprawling levels of Thief II, but it was still unmistakebly Garret and unmistakably Thief. On the whole I would say Deadly Shadows was better than the original, but not as good as Metal Age.

If someone announced a Thief 4 tomorrow, I'd be ecstatic. if they mentioned a few compromises or change of focus, I'd be wary about it, but i'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

This team are saying that Deus Ex 3 will be more like 1 than IW, so I say I'll give you a chance.

All I ask is, sure, make compromises if you think it best but make sure it is worthy of the name.

 

[Zoc]

Hmm... well, here's a completely personal viewpoint. I loved DX and hated DX2 and I can tell you exactly why. There were two things that DX did really well that DX2 completely failed at: first, making interesting environments that rewarded exploration. I never really cared about combat or levelling in either game.

I remember climbing over some signs high up over the streets in Hong Kong, trying to reach an interesting-looking ledge. When I got there, I found an awesome little still-life: high up on a ledge overlooking the gangster hideout, a sniper rifle, some ammo, a bag of chips and some soda. That little discovery was my favourite thing about DX. I also remember running into a drug deal in a back alley, finding a hidden military base in the NY sewers, Jack's apartment, etc. These little discoveries were great because of the imagination with which they were made, and because they had tangible gameplay rewards: it took skill to reach them and they gave XP or rare ammo.

The second great thing was the writing. The story itself was absurd, but DX had some of the most amusing, unusual conversations I've ever heard. A particular favourite was the conversation with the bartender at the "Old China Hand" about the "second men." This wasn't particularly meaningful from a gameplay perspective, but was just interesting writing.

DX2, on the other hand, completely lacked either of these, for me, crucial factors. It was badly written and had bland, tiny environments that gave no rewards for straying from the beaten path.

The quotes in this thread seem to indicate that the game has the same large open environments and writing as the first, so for me, at least, hope is still alive.

 

[diss]

Deus Ex 1 is one of my favourite games ever. It was so fucken huge and magnificent. I loved it even on my shitty shitty computer (I had the texture level set so low that I couldn't find this one hotel you had to go to because the sign was too blurry).

I never understood how Deus Ex 2 managed to be so much worse Mind boggling. Every single aspect was worse or dumbed down for some reason. Why? WHHHYY!?!?#?#214

That said, once the initial hate wore off, Deus Ex 2 wasn't bad really and it has some fond gaming memories for me. It was one of the first games with ragdolling I played so I had a lot of fun killing people and piling them into dumpsters before getting one of those flaming cans and setting them all alight. One time I had murdered everyone on this little street court and was slowly packing them into dumpsters. Then I heard the *beep beep beep* of the security bot making its rounds so I jumped into a dumpster and closed the lid above me. The bot came into the court, and you could hear the beeps getting closer and closer and then further and further away as the bot left. I came out and everyone was none the wiser. I went to look for something that was on fire. Good times.

Oh and Thief 3? Now that game was FUUUUUUCKING shit.

 

[diss]

Oh and for Deus Ex 3 I want every building to have an extensive air duct system which I can crawl into, make my way around the entire building in a stealthy fashion, overhear conversations and pick off people with my crossbow or fully upgraded silenced sniper rifle. That is good gameplay sirs.

In fact I would like more first person action games with RPG elements, inventory systems and a very feasible stealth option please, ala Deus Ex, Thief, NOLF etc. It seems to be a dying art.

 

[Zilch]

It´s a new team with a very beloved game, and without any of the original members neither people in key positions with a track that could indicate they have a clue of what they are getting into. Most fans will remain doubtful until proven wrong.



Yes, we see plenty of games like Deus Ex, anyone could create one *rolleyes*. The fact that the same team failed with the sequel is a good proof of how damn hard is to get it. How many successful hybrids do you really know?

I guess that Mr "What's with the revisionist history that remembers Deus Ex as a perfect-10" has chosen himself as the defender of the poor Eidos Montreal team. God luck with that.

By the way, it´s funny to read the damage control of the community manager. Yes, Sheldon Pacotti is involved, that is nice, but he is a writer, at best he will draw the correct background and get a cohesive feeling of the original games, which will make even more painful when they fall short at the DESIGN of the game. They don't want anger and overreaction from the Deus Ex fan community? keep quiet, make the game and prove us wrong.

You know, I really, really, really want to eat crow. I really want this game to blow me away and make me think there is a future for these kind of games.

Both of your statements, "there aren't a lot of games like Deus Ex, so it must be hard to make a game like that" and "only one Deus Ex game is good, so it must be hard to make a game like that" are logical fallacies that I'm not going to even bother with. You should think about re-reading your posts before hitting submit just to make sure they make sense.

Deus Ex isn't a perfect game. Someone in this thread even corroborated my belief that when it came out it got "good" to "really good" -- and NOT "perfect" -- scores. Only retroactively has Deus Ex been made a sacred cow that is immune to criticism.

The bottom line in my mind is that the old team made a great game 8 years ago. Then they "lost" whatever they had, Spector stopped caring, and Harvey is (IMO) incompetent. What this franchise NEEDS is new blood, a team without a history of shitty, consolized sequels. And the little info we've been given on the game so far has been by and large postive (ie the devs repeatedly saying "THIS IS GOING TO BE LIKE DEUS EX NOT LIKE INVISIBLE WAR WE KNOW YOU ALL HATE DXIW"). If the game sucks I'll be the first to say so.

 

[Bluemercury]

There's a reason people who played System shock games and Deus ex want the same style deep gameplay....because they're excellent....in fact the simple and less interesting part was the combat......but there was always other ways to solve problems.

 

[Tenks]

Has the OP played Deus Ex recently? I tried to play it last year for the first time and it was plodding as fuck. Other games from that era hold up much, much better.

Spoiler

Sorry, Warren.

The game could be significantly improved with more modern UI and gameplay design. It would definitely be a lot less clunky if it were to come out today.

I'd love to hear examples that aren't Blizzard products.

 

[dark10x]

There's a reason people who played System shock games and Deus ex want the same style deep gameplay....because they're excellent....in fact the simple and less interesting part was the combat......but there was always other ways to solve problems.

That's a good way to look at it. I loved everything about Deus Ex outside of the combat. There were so many interesting possibilities and non-combat related segments that really made for a memorable experience. When you WERE engaged in combat, however, the results were generally average (for the time) and, by todays standard, total crap.

I would like to see combat become an enjoyable option in addition to a game that is designed with the full understanding of what made the game so excellent outside of the action. With modern engines, I would also love to see much larger locales devoid of loading screens along with more interesting AI.

The AI doesn't have to ultra intelligent, rather, they should focus on making certain that they are fun to interact with. The Thief games were always a good example of this in that they weren't the brightest of foes, but their interactions with the player were always enjoyable. I really believe a game like this needs to feature a type of AI that has a huge middle ground between how they view the player (DX enemies were either oblivious to the player or attacking them guns-a-blazing).

 

[Nick The Newbie]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one disturbed over the future of deus ex. After this news bit, and the last one that said gunhandling wouldn't be based on a skill system, but how well you move the mouse, I was definitely scared.


I think the era of gamers who loved games like dx1 is at an end. We're no longer a market, so no one cares to make games to appease us anymore.

 

[DeBurgo]

Also, this may end up irrelevant to DX3, but: why do people bother to defend the on-rails cinematic content-fest from a business point of view? Why is it important to a random gaffer whether this trend is justified because it makes more money? Why isn't gameplay king? Do these people own stock or what?

I'm personally arguing for it because I think that arguing against it is pretty futile, and that while these companies are creatively bankrupt when it comes to making complex gameplay systems, they've been able to flex their muscles in OTHER creative ways that are potentially just as valuable.

And it's not like a lot of these games have exactly bad gameplay, just not deep gameplay.

Who's talking about Deus Ex or even SS2 when regarding STALKER? The genre might be the same but they are completely different games.

dark10x was talking about them, and he referenced stalker, which is what brought it up.

 

[MrPing1000]

What worries me is the game is set 25 years or so before dx1. Yet it looks futuristic. Looking at the screenshots in pcg uk, it looks more like invisible war, which makes no sense. The article says 2027 (dx3) is very futuristic, 2052 (dx) much the way it is today, 2057 (IW) futuristic again.

Of course it isn't due to 2010 so I'd expect much to change from then but the screenshots give a IW vibe, theres one with a scientist that looks basically like the lab-coat wearing guys in IW (stupid unreal engine).

The article seemed hopeful but a bit pessimistic, the last line is awesome though. "In the words of Bob page: 'We got a lot of things right when we made you, Denton'".

 

[Azih]

Thief Deadly Shadows had better and more consistent gameplay than The Dark Project (monster levels) and a better, more consistent story than The Metal Age (the story really got rushed and fell apart at the end). It's a completely worthy entry to the series especially since it has the best level in Thief history (Cradle).

 

[MrPing1000]

Thief Deadly Shadows had better and more consistent gameplay than The Dark Project (monster levels) and a better, more consistent story than The Metal Age (the story really got rushed and fell apart at the end). It's a completely worthy entry to the series especially since it has the best level in Thief history (Cradle).

As good as the cradle is, Life is the Party is still my favourite. Cradle isn't even very thiefy, just scary and cool flashback ghostie moments, not much if any loot to be had. Life of the Party is rediculously big, has a few funny set pieces and has you going all over the city. (a city which somehow became a tiny coridorfest in 3)

 

[Solo]

Hmm... well, here's a completely personal viewpoint. I loved DX and hated DX2 and I can tell you exactly why. There were two things that DX did really well that DX2 completely failed at: first, making interesting environments that rewarded exploration. I never really cared about combat or levelling in either game.

I remember climbing over some signs high up over the streets in Hong Kong, trying to reach an interesting-looking ledge. When I got there, I found an awesome little still-life: high up on a ledge overlooking the gangster hideout, a sniper rifle, some ammo, a bag of chips and some soda. That little discovery was my favourite thing about DX. I also remember running into a drug deal in a back alley, finding a hidden military base in the NY sewers, Jack's apartment, etc. These little discoveries were great because of the imagination with which they were made, and because they had tangible gameplay rewards: it took skill to reach them and they gave XP or rare ammo.

You basically nailed one of the major things that makes DX my favorite game ever right on the head. Well done! The player gets out of the game what he puts into it. Ive beaten the game a good 10-15 times, and each playthrough is a new experience. I change play styles, mods, choices, etc. each time to mold a brand new experience. And the exploration element you just brought up is the icing on the cake. Whether you see 100% of the world or 50% of it is up to you and how you want to play. I too, like you, am always finding new nooks and crannys and hidden stuff each time I revisit the game.

 

[dark10x]

As good as the cradle is, Life is the Party is still my favourite. Cradle isn't even very thiefy, just scary and cool flashback ghostie moments, not much if any loot to be had. Life of the Party is rediculously big, has a few funny set pieces and has you going all over the city. (a city which somehow became a tiny coridorfest in 3)

I agree, that's one of the best Thief missions ever.

It also highlights one of the huge advantages of The Dark Engine (the ability to handle MASSIVE maps). Thief III, while great, lost quite a bit due to map size limitations (which were present in virtually EVERY game using Unreal Engine 2 as a base regardless of whether or not it was a console release). The Dark Engine could handle some truly beastly maps that really drew you into the world. Life of the Party had you travelling across a massive city before even entering the gigantic compound. It was incredible.

Honestly, a mission like that should have been a mold for Ubi Soft with Assassin's Creed.

 

[gollumsluvslave]

but their interactions with the player were always enjoyable.

I hear you! Taffer! :lol

 

[domlolz]

Blizzard.

Oh yeah,Blizzard,yep,yep,yep,Blizzard,yeah?

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Every single interface was clunky, including movement and aiming. Nothing felt 'right'.
I would agree with you that I'm sure I would have felt the same back in the day. It's not like the game has changed.

I had more significant gameplay gripes as well, outside of the mechanics, but I'll leave those alone as they may have been improved upon towards the end of the game.


EDIT: Feel free to disagree, but I do think that a modern audience would find it plodding. I certainly did, and I tend to have more patience for these sorts of things than the average player.

I really don't get clunky? The inventory system was drop and drag, the movement felt like every over FPS out there at the time and the aiming was the same, only if you shot people in the head they had a tendency to drop dead.

 

[isamu]

What keeps me from playing DuesEX are the(from the screenshots I've seen) dated graphics. Are there any mods that enhances the textures of Dues EX and makes the graphics a bit more umm, up to date?

 

[dark10x]

I really don't get clunky? The inventory system was drop and drag, the movement felt like every over FPS out there at the time and the aiming was the same, only if you shot people in the head they had a tendency to drop dead.

The problem with the combat, as I recall, was the way enemies reacted to you and your weapons fire. I always felt that, had they taken an approach to stealth and enemy AI more in line with Thief, that the game would have benefitted greatly.

As mentioned previously, the enemies in Thief were not the most intelligent of foes (neither were those in DX), but their reactions were great and worked well with the players actions. They had a wider range of alert phases while DX enemies were either completely oblivious to the player or attacking them full force. Furthermore, when you attack an enemy in DX and fail to kill them immediately, their reactions are simply laughable as they spin about in place using a full out running animation. It looked awful and broke the immersion. Considering Warren Spector's connection to the Thief series, I was surprised and disappointed by the implementation of the AI in Deus Ex. Was always one of the most disappointing aspects of the game.

The feeling of the player weapons could really have used some work as well. The animation and feedback you get from using them was always well behind the curve. Games released years earlier were superior in this regard. They were stiff and akward to use. Even when you maxed out your skills with a certain weapon, it never felt satisfying to use. The game was released in 2000, however, so I was more easily able to excuse this issue, but it was still disappointing.

I suppose the feeling that I always got from the game was something along the lines of "what I'm doing is so damn cool in concept, but is pretty janky in its implemention". Ultimately, what the player was capable of was interesting enough that I was able to love the experience regardless. Its positives outweigh the negatives.