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Develop-Online: The Order: 1886 Dev Says "Internet Is The New Playground For Bullies"

P

PKMNTrainer

Member
I think they could have handled it better. It's important to note that people who are not interested in a 5-8 hour runtime have a very valid complaint. But I don't believe a game can be judged as good or bad based purely on perceived value, as cost fluctuates. If a game drops to 29.99, is it suddenly good? People sure seem to act that way but I just don't buy it.
just like I won't be buying The Order
Also loving the amount of 'backseat gaming' going on. "Watched the whole game on YouTube and the gameplay is objectively horrible" is much worse than "the game is only 5 hours long" imo.
 
M

MormaPope

Banned
Korten said:
So fucking what. Developers aren't making games for YOU. They're making games THEY want to make.
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Sorry, its a big mix of both. Tons and tons of developers make games they want to make, and then after their game tanks they either stop making games or go back to the drawing board. Look at all the indie devs that make what they want to and their games ends up tanking, almost no one buys their game, no one talks about their game. The indie side of gaming is just as ruthless as AAA development, with a lot less at stake.

Making something for yourself is a hobby. Making something for other people using your own skills and artistic merit is business.
 
G

GorillaJu

Member
I wish they just wouldn't read places like Gaf unfiltered. It's important for devs to receive player feedback and get a barometer for how the public feels about their game pre-release, but it has to be taken through a certain lens, not just read raw, where it will be distracting and likely upsetting.
 
L

labaronx

Member
KingSnake said:
They are not GAF mods (as far as I know, are they?).

And I think this was discussed before here and the answer was that the game information threads shouldn't be just some kind of echo chambers for fans. It pisses me off sometimes too (for other games/platforms), but unless it's a clear break of the rules, they are entitled too.
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Oh i get the entitlement and i fully support how things are run on gaf and what the mods do.
I meant more so on an individual level. And i respect everyone's opinion. I just felt that his statement about people who look forward to any game usually has to deal with some form of negativity
 
Freshmaker

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Korten said:
So fucking what. Developers aren't making games for YOU. They're making games THEY want to make.
Click to expand...

And?

I still will react to the game THEY WANTED TO MAKE however I please since I'm going to be the one playing it or not.

Sorry, but I will never, ever think of the developers feelings when I opt to buy a game or not. That's insane.
 
S

Seventy70

Member
Just because you haven't played a game, that doesn't mean you can't criticize it. You can get the length of a game along with the details of it through other means.

While we are doing steak analogies, it's like seeing a steak smothered in a cup of BBQ sauce, which isn't your thing at all and saying you are disgusted. Then, someone comes and says, "Well, you haven't actually TASTED IT!!!"
 
Freshmaker

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Mass_Pincup said:
Who are this "most people", people posting on message board? If so I hate to break it to you but we are a tiny minority.
Click to expand...

So are the people who say stuff like "I don't like anything I've heard about it so far, but I trust Ready at Dawn!"

That really doesn't mean anything.
 
B

Berserker976

Member
Seventy70 said:
Just because you haven't played a game, that doesn't mean you can't criticize it. You can get the length of a game along with the details of it through other means.
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Yeah, I mean just because you haven't eaten a steak doesn't mean you don't know how it tastes. You've seen the steak, and you've seen someone eat the steak. You have all the information you need to make an informed judgement on the quality of that steak. ;)
 
S

Seventy70

Member
Berserker976 said:
Yeah, I mean just because you haven't eaten a steak doesn't mean you don't know how it tastes. You've seen the steak, and you've seen someone eat the steak. You have all the information you need to make an informed judgement on the quality of that steak. ;)
Click to expand...

I actually updated my post with a better analogy ;)
 
P

ProfessorMoran

Member
Team Vernia said:
Seems like the "haterade" is getting to RAD, but it's good to know they think their product is like a $100 steak.
I already preordered a digital copy. Can't wait!

EDIT: Original source is here. http://www.develop-online.net/inter...y-at-dawn-talks-quality-over-quantity/0203245









Bully me if old.
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No offense to Dana Jan, but when you have something like this happening, the best thing to do is NOT to lash out, he just needs to stfu and try to ride this out and wait for it to die down.
 
L

labaronx

Member
To be fair ive had a 75 dollar buffalo porterhouse before... best 75 ive spent in my life for only 35 minutes of pleasure

Game looks good to me though but to each his own
 
L

LuuKyK

Member
I actually agree to some extent to what they are saying, but they should know better that the best way to deal with all this is to ignore.

They are just going to add more fuel to the fire, because those that are on a mission to bring this game down will keep doing it no matter if the game is good or bad, its not like they are going to play it anyway.

Thats not all though. They should focus on hearing the legit criticism from those that actually played it and didn't like it/part of it and keep doing their job to correct it and improve as game devs. People overreact about everything nowadays, its not only about them, even if it does seem like this game brings the worst out of the gamers on the internet. Even then, to deal with these controversies is part of their job. Trust in your product and focus on what matter. I kinda feel for them and understand why they are struggling with this a little bit, Order being their first big game and all that.

FordGTGuy said:
Why wouldn't I?

Shouldn't we approach every game from the same standpoint to be fair? Why can't the same arguments for the defense of The Order be used for other games?
Click to expand...

FordGTGuy said:
Where was this attitude with RYSE?

Seems no one had a problem jumping down the throat of RYSE and not giving it any kind of chance. I think it's hilarious the amount of hate RYSE got for having QTEs, that ended up optional, while The Order has forced ones on top of 2.5 hours of cutscenes and apparently that's fine....
Click to expand...

Doing whatever you are claiming to be the best online behavior would be an excellent start you know. But speaking about what really matters...

The ryse comparison really deserves no place in a thread like this though. The game got complaints in totally different circumstances, it was the start of a new gen and people clearly thought it looked like a tech demo back then. Not really entering the merit of this discussion, since I never played it, so I can't say if its true or not. Just pointing out what I remember of that.

The Order is getting all this talk for different reasons like length, and stylistic choices more than anything. In the end all it seems is like superficial internet talk that amounts to nothing when looking for a decent debate about (not only in this case) the quality of the games. As I said though, there is some legit criticism floating around here on GAF, its just that it gets mixed/lost amongst all these sidetalk about console warriors and whatnot, which is extremely annoying, completely misses the point and makes it almost impossible to have legitimate debates over what the game does well or not.

I am personally going to approach all this by finishing the game first (I am probably getting it tomorrow) and then talking about it on the OT whenever its posted. Hopefully it will be more civil by then.
 
Q

QaaQer

Member
MrNyarlathotep said:
I find this playing the "we're the victim of internet bullies" marketing ploy in extremely poor taste, given the product they have made is legitimately a target for questioning their choices in doing so.

Brianna Wu is allowed to complain about internet hate machines.
Dennis Dyack is allowed to complain about internet hate machines.
Shit, Don Mattrick and Bobby Kotick are allowed to complain about internet hate machines.

I really don't think Ready At Dawn are allowed to play this card.
Click to expand...

Do you know what an interview is?

Joaby said:
I asked them very specifically to comment on the concept of the uncanny haterade, so of course they're going to talk at length about that.

Before that, Dana says "I'm excited to hear what people who have actually played the game think about it, how do they feel about the quality and the quantity?"
Click to expand...
 
S

Steel

Banned
labaronx said:
To be fair ive had a 75 dollar buffalo porterhouse before... best 75 ive spent in my life for only 35 minutes of pleasure

Game looks good to me though but to each his own
Click to expand...

Eh, as someone who has actually had $100 steak, the only reason I can say it was enjoyable is because my boss paid for it. It was great, but if I had paid $100 for it out of my own pocket for it I'd be kicking myself with every bite.
 
H

Heigic

Member
In the 'bullies' defence The Order has been a PR Disaster from day one, and talking about steaks is just going to get you mocked further.
 
T

Tidus_Great

Banned
some gamers just need to steer away from single player story driven experiences if they dont like them. The order is out to deliver a good movie esque interactive experience. if that's not for you then don't buy it. But the truth is the game will sell well because there is clearly a market for these types of games. personally I love them and it makes me sad when gamers are so hard headed about their hobby changing into something more artistic.
 
L

labaronx

Member
Steel said:
Eh, as someone who has actually had $100 steak, the only reason I can say it was enjoyable is because my boss paid for it. It was great, but if I had paid $100 for it out of my own pocket for it I'd be kicking myself with every bite.
Click to expand...

Fiances birthday at steakhouse. She was worth it
 
S

StrongBlackVine

Banned
The internet is an absolutely toxic environment. It brings out the worst in people and not just when it comes to games. My best advice to any artist would be to ignore it all. There is a such thing as constructive criticism, but mostly it is full of insecure people trying to drag others down.


When I don't like someone's work I usually ignore it. I have never seen the the benefit to focusing so much attention on something that doesn't appeal to you.
 
A

Averon

Member
ProfessorMoran said:
No offense to Dana Jan, but when you have something like this happening, the best thing to do is NOT to lash out, he just needs to stfu and try to ride this out and wait for it to die down.
Click to expand...

You're right, but when it's "your baby" or "dream project" you wanted to do for so long and spent 3-4 years working on, it's natural to want to defend it, even if doing so may not be wise. RAD guys are human too, after all.

The Order went from a buy to a "wait for a sale" for me, but I do want it and RAD to succeed as I feel RAD have laid down a good foundation for the series. If they can take all the constructive critiques from The Order and use it to refine a sequel, I think I can see a situation similar to Uncharted --> Uncharted 2.
 
Q

QaaQer

Member
bananafactory said:
It's funny how many people in here are overlooking Joaby's comments. RAD didn't call a press conference to discuss how poorly they were treated, they were just answering a question.
Click to expand...

I know right. But then again, some people love getting all indignant and self righteous. Media companies like Fox make good money out of that.
 
R

Rafterman

Banned
C-DubSP said:
More like the internet is a place where the bullied become bullies.
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Yeah, it's kinda sad, really. It turns out the only reason most of these people weren't bullies in school was because of physical limitations and not because they are actually better people than the people who bullied them.

The internet really is a cesspool of impotent brats who feel powerful by shitting on anything and anyone. It could have been so much better.
 
Reallink

Reallink

Member
Good to know game developers make enough money to be buying $100 steaks, now I don't feel bad renting or waiting for the price drops.
 
S

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Some people have been hating on it since announcement. Some have been giving it a handy since announcement.

Boohoo.

Best option is just to shut up and keep going forward.
 
Freshmaker

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
StrongBlackVine said:
When I don't like someone's work I usually ignore it. I have never seen the the benefit to focusing so much attention on something that doesn't appeal to you.
Click to expand...

Generally to discourage stuff like development trends people don't like. That only gets compounded of course when it becomes clear the developers are reading the complaints.
 
B

Berserker976

Member
Seventy70 said:
I actually updated my post with a better analogy ;)
Click to expand...

You're closer with that one, but it would actually be like if you saw a steak covered in barbecue sauce, and then you went to the chef and told him it was shit, and steaks shouldn't be made that way, and that no one should buy his steak because it was overpriced for what it delivered. And you still hadn't eaten it.
 
L

luffxan

Member
As soon as steak was mentioned I immediately got hungrier and lost any interest in the topic......seriously though I don't have high hopes for the Order but I hope it actually turns out to be a good game. Always nice to have a new IP pan out well
 
K

kanuuna

Member
Alienous said:
The Order: 1886 is the most succulent looking steak you have ever seen, if perhaps a little bit smaller than what you usually get for this price. It looks grilled to perfection. Every time you are about to cut into it and take a bite your waiter stops you to remind you that this is a serious steak, a work of art, even. You'd prefer if you could enjoy the steak uninterrupted, but you digress. You taste it and it's ... steak. There might be a hint of some interesting flavours, but it really is just steak. Then it hits you. It really is just steak. There are no potatoes on your plate. There are no vegetables. Shit, there isn't even gravy. What the fuck is this? You point at your empty plate, and stare at your waiter. "Sir, it usually takes people longer to enjoy the steak" he says. You reply "But you just watched me eat it". "Sir, you must have scarfed it down" he replies, sternly, "you didn't take the time to appreciate the subtleties of the flavours. We put a lot of work into that". As you get up to leave you can hear him talking with another waiter, "That guy? No, he was being a bully". You stare angrily, then leave.
Click to expand...

I like this post.
 
J

John Bender

Banned
CoG said:
In all my years of gaming I've never witnessed a campaign to spread negativity about a game operating at the level as we are seeing right now for The Order.

All the anti-Sony outlets are in Fox News mode right now trashing the game 24/7 for the past week.
Click to expand...
Don't forget the "anti-cinematic" people everywhere. It's hilarious.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
I don't like the way they keep getting so defensive about criticizing their product. Yes, internet gets a lot of amplified hate, but people are justifiably cynical about the industry - devs and publishers have shown time and time again a willingness to squeeze every dime possible from us without regard for their audience. If you hear a single player focused game that costs $60 is only 5-6 hours long, people are going to get paranoid. They should be understanding that part of the reason on top of that people are so extra skeptical about The Order has been a year of unreservedly horrible media showings. They can't think after all that people are just going to assume the best. Understanding is required here.

But I think again this is part of how they kept positioning the game. They talk of filmic/cinematic experiences, how their aspect ratio enhances the cinematic feel, and not inconsequential chunk of the game is a made up of either cutscenes or barely interactive QTE sequences. So people will more easily buy that this big AAA cinematic game which from day one has basically been focusing on how gorgeous it is and how movie-like it is will also be very short, since games of that type have a reputation for being short in average anyway.

Of course I wonder what they will say when the game averages 7/10 reviews and people criticize it for being a pretty unremarkable third person shooter. Not sure what type of steak I'd be eating then?
 
P

Percy

Banned
It's really seeming to me that all a lot of people in this thread are doing is making this guy's point for him. Some seriously embarassing posts on display, most especially those where posters have to resort to insulting other members. Get a fucking grip.
 
C

Chabbles

Member
I cant wait to play this and see whats what, but the amount of drama over this game is crazy.

JayhawkerStL said:
The problem isn't just that the $100 steak is smaller, its also that it actually tastes like a run of the mill steak. It does, however, look tastier than any steak you've ever had.
Click to expand...

And you have to watch someone else eat almost have of it in cutscenes.
 
A

ArkkAngel007

Member
MrNyarlathotep said:
Yes, what's your point?
"Haterade" was brought up by the interviewee as a dismissal of people "speed running the game on easy", and when asked to elaborate the victim card was played apropos of nothing.

Its distasteful and shamelessly manipulative.
Click to expand...

That's not what it was referring to. Read the actual interview again. It's about the general nonsense around this game since it was shown off, not the 5.5 hour play through (which they hadn't seen for themselves and only said it was quicker than the one devs personal best).

Feel like some of the posts here are distasteful and shamelessly manipulative.

Only issue I had, which you can see in discussion between myself and the interviewer earlier in the thread, was that the criticisms seemed all lumped into the nasty drive by shit rather than making any distinction. People should be smart enough to realize that if they are presenting an actual criticism that they aren't who is being referred to, but in PR you're supposed to account for that shortcoming in your audience.
 
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