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Developer Speaks About Lockhart "Holding Back Next Gen." And PS5 VS XSX Dev Kits.
Foiled again.
93xfan
Banned
For nearly all games above 1080p, it won’t.
D
Deleted member 471617
Unconfirmed Member
Not really a surprise. Games have always been developed with the best tech in mind and then scaled down accordingly. Games that will run on Series S will be the same as Series X but a lower resolution and less effects but the performance and game design will still all be intact.
01011001
Banned
the fuck is that supposed to mean? do you know how the AI in TLOU2 works? looking at it, it's nothing special... and how exactly would the difficulty change that?
the same pre set reactions trigger more easily... wow... what a difference.
TLOU2's AI is not computationally intensive. proof of that would be the weak ass hardware inside the PS4. if you think the AI is that impressive, imagine what a modern system with an actually good CPU can do, a CPU that is at least 9x as powerful, if not even significantly more than that.
the CPU is the limiting factor when it comes to AI 99% of the time.
Gamerguy84
Member
I have to agree with lower. Id say $299 lol..
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
And it's already been explained to you, several times, how those "gameplay" features and mechanics can either be scaled down, or removed for the lower-end platform. You're just choosing to ignore that but that is on you.
Too many enemies on-screen? Just reduce the enemy count. AI logic too complex? Just scale it back through profiles that change depending on what platform the game is running on. If anything, financial investment will be a much bigger deciding factor on what game features are adopted in the first place (and their degree of complexity) than scalability being hindered by any particular factor.
With AAA games in particular generally getting more homogenized in game mechanics, it should be obvious that corporate risk aversion is the biggest thing getting in the way of the gameplay innovations you're hinting to, not GPUs of different power levels (wherein the programming logic for those hypothetical gameplay features can be scaled up and down depending on system capabilities).
Dr Bass
Member
Not even close.
CurtBizzy
Member
longdi
Banned
Basically this is the main advantage that PS5 faster SSD brings to the table.
Easier to develop games for developers.
Lort
Banned
That's not what he said at all, he was talking about The SDK.
He said that the SSD makes minimal if any difference to the game.. the load times are basically non existent on both and XSeX has better graphics.
longdi
Banned
ManaByte
Gold Member
Which means people will dismiss what they say.
igivehugs2nakedwomen
Banned
The people expecting massive differences in performance between the Series X and PS5 are going to be really disappointed.
soulbait
Member
- KOTOR 2
- Neverwinter Nights 2
- Alpha Protocol
- Psychonauts
- Forza Horizon (any)
Just some names, all great games. I'm so excited for MS event
With EA having rights to the Star Wars license, I don't see KOTOR 2 being developed by a MS studio. I would love it to be true, but not seeing it happen.
ManaByte
Gold Member
This dev says the XSX is better with some stuff though.
igivehugs2nakedwomen
Banned
He didn't say Series X was better, he said and I quote
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tryDEATH
Member
If both images are very similar and one of them "can push more effects" we can conclude that the picture quality of the XSX would be superior based on what he says.
Looks like RSX and a CELL situation, after a couple of years you see some difference.
S
Shodan09
Unconfirmed Member
I will buy instantly anything that lets me play the entirety of Rare Replay on the shitter.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
This is very, very interesting.
With the info that's being coming out these last few days about Lockhart, I'm more and more interested in the machine. I'll probably go for a Series X if the price isn't crazy, but these news and the rumors about Lockhart being "portable" mean that Lockhart could be great for situations where you want to play your XBox games away from your living room without having to carry the Series X with you, with all the problems that that would entail. A "serious" gamer will surely have the best setup for a machine like the Series X at home, but let's say that you're going to spend some time at a friend's, or on vacation, and you can't reasonably expect to find the best TV/monitor for gaming there, so you're going to face compromises. That's where Lockhart could be great even for this audience. It could be great as a backup XBox for travel, for taking your games to your friends' house while leaving your main console safe at home.
I don't know how many people would be interested in this, but for me, there've been occasions when I'd be happy to take my X1X to a friend's house, but it's not that feasible. Lockhart being geared towards "portability" and providing adequate versions of your games could be very interesting.
With the info that's being coming out these last few days about Lockhart, I'm more and more interested in the machine. I'll probably go for a Series X if the price isn't crazy, but these news and the rumors about Lockhart being "portable" mean that Lockhart could be great for situations where you want to play your XBox games away from your living room without having to carry the Series X with you, with all the problems that that would entail. A "serious" gamer will surely have the best setup for a machine like the Series X at home, but let's say that you're going to spend some time at a friend's, or on vacation, and you can't reasonably expect to find the best TV/monitor for gaming there, so you're going to face compromises. That's where Lockhart could be great even for this audience. It could be great as a backup XBox for travel, for taking your games to your friends' house while leaving your main console safe at home.
I don't know how many people would be interested in this, but for me, there've been occasions when I'd be happy to take my X1X to a friend's house, but it's not that feasible. Lockhart being geared towards "portability" and providing adequate versions of your games could be very interesting.
cormack12
Gold Member
I agree. Easier to work with usually pertains to toolchains and SDK's, maybe better levels of diagnostic logging/documentation etc.
bumleforce
Member
ya you know that switch version of witcher and doom eternal really held back those games. Same with the 360 version of tomb raider on 360, and persona on ps3. Oh wait those old versions didn't hold back the current gen versions? Crazy
Explosive Zombie
Banned
A game being ported later isn't the same as being designed for the platform simultaneously, there's a reason many multi-plats don't ever hit the Switch.
Xplainin
Banned
Sony has had really good development tools through the PS4 era.
PS3 was a nightmare, but they really got their shit together after that.
Wouldnt surprise me to see those tools improved on again. The time to triangle on PS5 was something Cerny was really proud of.
Will be interesting to see how Sony's API morphs next gen. MSs DX 12 Ultimate has brought a heap of new features with RT, VRS, ML and Mesh Shading amongst others.
I'm really interested to see how both compete with each other, and what benefits they bring.
Great Hair
Banned
And better raytracing, up to 25tflops of computational performance. And do developers not sign an NDA? Him freely sharing the pros and cons of not one platform but both SDKs, hardware ... i remain skeptical.
Tulipanzo
Member
I'm glad developers are starting to come out and actually discuss Lockhart, but I don't feel that this quite kills all concerns from a development POV.
Borderlands 3 is built around devices that are less powerful than Lockhart, and most issues could arise around tech which strains next-gen more (UE5, Minecraft RT), and might require more extensive optimization.
I'd be interested in seeing what he thinks of its long-term viability.
The more notable thing is this highlights MS's severe problems in communicating Lockhart plans to devs.
If devs affiliated with Gearbox, not exactly a small studio, seemingly only got devkits recently, what does it say about everyone else shipping a game on it come the end of the year?
From what we knew, it even seemed like Lockhart was not going to have devkits at all, just profile modes. In fact, Tom Warren reported as much last week.
Borderlands 3 is built around devices that are less powerful than Lockhart, and most issues could arise around tech which strains next-gen more (UE5, Minecraft RT), and might require more extensive optimization.
I'd be interested in seeing what he thinks of its long-term viability.
The more notable thing is this highlights MS's severe problems in communicating Lockhart plans to devs.
If devs affiliated with Gearbox, not exactly a small studio, seemingly only got devkits recently, what does it say about everyone else shipping a game on it come the end of the year?
From what we knew, it even seemed like Lockhart was not going to have devkits at all, just profile modes. In fact, Tom Warren reported as much last week.
Info on whether a Lockhart devkit is even real is vanishingly thin, and at minimum highlights problem in supplying devs.https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/26/21304112/microsoft-xbox-series-x-lockhart-leaked-document-specs-rumors said:
I get what he's saying but Lockhart only can do the same things as Series X/ps5 if both are "wasting" all those Tflops on native 4k/60fps. What if we get more ambitious games that will run on 30fps/1440p on ps5? No disrespect here, but a next gen version of Borderlands 3 probably isn't going to break the mold lol.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
You will likely get that 1440p/30 PS5 game either 1440p/60 or 4k/30 on series x. Which would then mean the lockhart version would be likely 1080p/30 or 900p/60...?
What’s the issue here? The power gaps between the SX and PS5 will likely allow the extra push from 1440p to 4k, and the lockhart would have no trouble in this situation.
The thing is, the ps5 for all its advancements, will still always be lower in grunt than series x. That’s totally fine. But it means that multi platform games will either perform worse there (less likely) or will perform at a lower resolution (most likely). The SX, will likely take those games and either apply higher settings (possible) or simply bump up the resolution to full 4k (most likely). Either way the head room is there. The magical SSD of doom will not change this situation.
So for lockhart, yes, a game that pushes 1440p/30 on PS5 will still be ok to run at 1080p/30 on lockhart, no problem.
Now the issue may come from a game on SX that runs at 1440p/30, as this will require either 900p on lockhart, or vastly reduced settings.
Either way, possible, with no real problem, due to the same cpu/SSD/ram speed. But then, if you don’t Like the fact an SX game thats 1440p is now like this on lockhart... you simply don’t buy lockhart. There’s a reason the price will be much lower, after all.
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Fortuneelsewhere
Member
Maybe I’m missing something but if what they are doing is upgrading a current gen game to sex and PS5 is obvious that they will manage to have the game running perfectly in the Lockhart (the base game was build for inferior consoles).
How are we reading in this as evidence that next gen games build from scratch for sex or PS5 will scale flawlessly to Lockhart?
How are we reading in this as evidence that next gen games build from scratch for sex or PS5 will scale flawlessly to Lockhart?
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Power is based on several factors. Processor speed, Which allows the real game changers to next gen like physics, simulation, AI etc. Memory, which is now less important but still somewhat important, which has much faster speeds, and the SSD, which even a 2gbs will be hard to max out potential on for a long time but hey, whose counting. (Unreal 5 demo ran on a 500gbs SSD for example, but didn’t allow that fidelity with moving/animated objects for obvious reasons).
Then there’s the GPU, and the GPU is only there for, well, GPU grunt based stuff. It’s main purpose is graphics processing after all. Now yes the Xbox GPU is more advanced, and it’s ray tracing is far better in quality values, but ignore that for now. It’s actual main power will be used for “how many effects at once” and “what resolution” to dumb this down. (PS5 is current using quarter resolution single bounce ray tracing, so hopefully Xbox will be using more advanced. With a separate pool of 13tf power for ray tracing alone, I can’t see how they will have bad RT as it’s essentially for free in most cases other than overhead ).
In other words, if the CPU is the same, the SSD is the same, and the RAM is the same (speed. Not amount. 4k requires a massive chunk of vram 1080p doesn’t), then of course all those things that will make next gen “next gen” are going to be the same.
That’s why it’s so easy to scale down to it.
Now, if the CPU was half the speed, or the SSD slower, we would have a problem. That’s why the issue of porting games to current gen consoles is still a big thing. But then we port next generation games to current gen consoles every new generation, and truth be told, nobody even uses anything from the new generation for a good year or two anyway. With a dedicated team porting the game backward it’s no issue.
In short, if the GPU and memory are lower but everything else is the same, you have no problem at all getting a high quality XSX title on lockhart. That’s just how scalability works within the same architecture system.
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Portugeezer
Member
I think with it having basically the same CPU and SSD, the GPU downgrade won't hold back the games... for the most part.
I wondered if any game would be built around Ray tracing as a mechanic for gameplay (some horror game or something) but that won't be possible if it is drastically worse on Lockhart. That is a very fringe scenario though.
I wondered if any game would be built around Ray tracing as a mechanic for gameplay (some horror game or something) but that won't be possible if it is drastically worse on Lockhart. That is a very fringe scenario though.
The Hamburglar
Banned
A port of a current gen game isn’t really a good metric
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
I think you don't understand what Lockhart is.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
A possibility for sure however all signs point to lockhart having ray tracing, and if it’s quarter res (same as PS5 atm though that’s no means the case for all its titles) it would be totally fine. Again you get what you pay for after all. Truthfully though, while all signs point to it having RT, that’s not set in stone. Any form of RT in a cheap 1080p box would be stupidly good value.
Wut.
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Fortuneelsewhere
Member
Thanks for the replay. Even so I don’t think is going to be that easy specially as the generation goes and games become more GPU intensive.. we will see..
Plus I can’t rap my mind around a 4tf be able to get any meaningful RT effects (even with dedicated hardware) without tanking the performance massively..
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Absolutely, I kinda agree. We have no idea what the RT function of Lockhart will be. I mean even the PS5 which is higher spec has limited RT to *some* degree, but for what it is, it’s more than fine. RT should compliment a scene, not be the one thing you’re looking at, and for that, PS5 is more than enough for visual design needs.
But again I’ll say the same thing I said before... you get what you pay for. And of the rumoured £200-£300 price is true, then next gen gaming at 1080p even with limited RT is a stupidly good deal.
Mr.ODST
Member
I think you misunderstand that the Lockhart is there for people with budgets and those who are not bothered about 4K gaming and all the graphical enhancements.
Majority of sales come from parents and kids who don't care for 4K, if its cheap people will with that, especially in this economy.
Its great to hear from a dev that confirms Lockhart won't effect or hold back the Series X it will just be downscaled from the Series X version, brilliant move from Microsoft to get people invested in the platform.
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joe_zazen
Member
So much damage control.
Anyone remember the guy nvida fxx inventor Timothy Lottes who said the weakest link (x1) was going to be the boat anchor for next gen in 2013 and suffer a real shit storm?
So yeah, so nameless devs and MS twitter users say old PCs and 4tf machine is great, and now it is the official story. People so easy to manipulate.
now i have a violent rally to attend because Trump is about to let the Russians take over our govt.
Anyone remember the guy nvida fxx inventor Timothy Lottes who said the weakest link (x1) was going to be the boat anchor for next gen in 2013 and suffer a real shit storm?
So yeah, so nameless devs and MS twitter users say old PCs and 4tf machine is great, and now it is the official story. People so easy to manipulate.
now i have a violent rally to attend because Trump is about to let the Russians take over our govt.
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joe_zazen
Member
Like I said, it would only make sense if Series X/ps5 waste all those Tflops on just 4k and 60fps. Shouldn't next gen be about more than just native 4k, especially when we have things like checkerboard rendering, that looks almost as good as 4k at a fraction of the cost? 4k Is great and all but the mid-gen consoles already did that and most people didn't think it was worth the upgrade.
And no, a game pushing the ps5 to its limits in 1440p would need to be to sub 720p (probably 540p) to hit that same 30fps on Lockhart. So far the only thing I've seen that looked truly next gen was the Unreal 5 demo and that was running at 30fps/1440p.
FranXico
Member
The performance difference is not large enough for such a difference in combined resolution and framerate.
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Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Realistically it depends on other factors but I would say 1600ish should be a dead cert for the power difference to be enough. But without actually knowing how much of an overhead there is, you just don’t know. I mean if it’s just like 36fps that drops down to 24fps maybe not, but if it’s high 40s capped at 30, won’t be an issue.
You can’t give a single answer because there’s always things to do, things to change, that can help. We just don’t know, and that’s what makes lockhart so fascinating to me, comparing to comparing PS5 to SXS. It’s an unknown quantity atm that can go either way.
M MrMiyagi yeah that remains to be seen, I mean the UE5 demo is a bit of a mixed bag because it’s used as a triumph for the SSD, but only requires a 500gbs one. The truth is, anything is possible with enough time and talent. But I will say this again... if a game pushes the PS5 to its limits, what’s a good balance for lockhart to run said game? I mean GPU power wise, 4.6 to let’s go with 10.2, you would assume just under half the resolution, so it may even be higher than 900p. I mean I could do the math but can’t be arsed, BBQ day today so I’m just waiting for my burgers to burn
But again... for a cheap ass 1080p box, is that REALLY so bad? Honestly?
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Airbus Jr
Banned
damage control....damage control..damage control...so much damage control....
lockhart is potato macine that even weaker than xbox one x
If you love lockhart so much then why dont u embrace yourself gaming with a 4,6 tf machine ( which is just slightly ahead of ps4pro) since u love it so much
lockhart is potato macine that even weaker than xbox one x
If you love lockhart so much then why dont u embrace yourself gaming with a 4,6 tf machine ( which is just slightly ahead of ps4pro) since u love it so much
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Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
damage control....damage control..damage control...so much damage control....
lockhart is potato macine that even weaker than xbox one x
just deal with it guys
Realistically it depends on other factors but I would say 1600ish should be a dead cert for the power difference to be enough. But without actually knowing how much of an overhead there is, you just don’t know. I mean if it’s just like 36fps that drops down to 24fps maybe not, but if it’s high 40s capped at 30, won’t be an issue.
You can’t give a single answer because there’s always things to do, things to change, that can help. We just don’t know, and that’s what makes lockhart so fascinating to me, comparing to comparing PS5 to SXS. It’s an unknown quantity atm that can go either way.
M MrMiyagi yeah that remains to be seen, I mean the UE5 demo is a bit of a mixed bag because it’s used as a triumph for the SSD, but only requires a 500gbs one. The truth is, anything is possible with enough time and talent. But I will say this again... if a game pushes the PS5 to its limits, what’s a good balance for lockhart to run said game? I mean GPU power wise, 4.6 to let’s go with 10.2, you would assume just under half the resolution, so it may even be higher than 900p. I mean I could do the math but can’t be arsed, BBQ day today so I’m just waiting for my burgers to burn
But again... for a cheap ass 1080p box, is that REALLY so bad? Honestly?
I honestly don't know what to think of this all lol. I mean, if MS wouldn't have announced Series X but instead the 4Tflops Lockhart, and the Series X would come out somewhere in 2024 as a mid-gen upgrade that played the exact same games but in 4k/60fps. Would you have been ok with that?
To me it's a bit depressing if they're saying a $200 4Tflops console can do exactly the same as a 12Tflops console, just at a bit lower resolution and framerate. Surely there have to be more innovative ways developers can push next gen visuals besides just cranking up resolution and framerate?
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Airbus Jr
Banned
At this point you guys are fully aware of the hardware of lockhart which is just slightly better than ps4 pro and lower than xbox one x
I mean you talk about how much u love it so go get it then
Id wish someone would run a poll on how many people here going to get xbox lockhart as their primary system, my guess is almost zero
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Stiflers Mom
Banned
So we can stop the console war now... : D
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
You’re shitting me? You must be
But this is how it’s always been and always will be. New implementations and shader updates will allow new tech, but faster grunt will mean either more of these effects or a higher resolution. That’s the way it is, and with this utterly stupid “we all need to push for 4k” bollocks that’s now in play, it’s going to be a hard gen for some. That’s why I’m glad there is serious stock put into CB and improving image quality from a lower resolution image. I’ve stood firm on wanting 1440p to be the max we should aim for, not 4k, not yet. But these GPUs will most be used for pumping out higher resolutions and not much more.
Now if you want a REAL next gen player, you need to look at the CPU. All the consoles have fantastic CPUs now, and you will see some impressive stuff. Next gen doesn’t just have to mean better looking.
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