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[SonGoku]

In the wake of the Rockstar news about their crunch habits, Jan Willem Nijman (Vlambeer, Minit) posted on Twitter asking for devs to respond with games that were made crunch-free and got a lot of responses:

Compiled list of responses i found online:

Agent Decker (physical card game)
Airships: Conquer the Skies
Barbearian
Battlestar Galactica
Beat The Art Breaker
Bleed 1
Bleed 2
Broken Age
Chicken Jump
Cultist Simulator
Domiverse
Dreams (source)
Dungeon of the Endless
Edge of Eternity
Endless Legend
Endless Space 2
Florence
Frobisher Says
Ghostman
Guacamelee 2
Gunslugs 3
Hohokum
Krunch
Lieve Oma
Loot Rascals
Minit
Operator Overload
Out of the Park Baseball
Panoramical
Path Out
Phase Drift
Pizza Ultra Titan
Regency Solitaire
Reunited
Rogue Aces
Save One More
Slamoids
Sound of my Town
Spitkiss
Star Crossed
Sunless Sea
Surge Deluxe
Thunder Kid
Tiny Trax
Tormentor X Punisher
Tower Fortress
Velocity
Velocity 2X
Wandersong

The interesting pattern i noticed is that these are all non memorable games or relaxed garage projects, out of the whole list the only game i recognized is velocity
Overall seems like a really bad attempt of Jan Willem to stir shit putting R* on the spot, it backfired horribly though considering no AAA titles made the list

In my opinion crunch is a necessary evil to add the final touches and polish that you find in masterpiece games, what's your take?

EDIT: Before commenting on RDR2 crunch, read post 78

 

[Sonny Black]

You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

 

[Cunth]

I lold at the thread title

 

[Xaero Gravity]

I've done crunch hours at work, it absolutely sucks. But if often produces the best work. The grind is real, but the juice is worth the squeeze.

 

[{insert code here}]

 

[nowhat]

Hohokum is far from forgettable! In a right state of mind (this may need some external help - a bong is a good start) you'll certainly remember your time with it.

 

[Northeastmonk]

Well of course. Granted it was a remaster; I watched John Romero program his HD version of Dangerous Dave on Twitch. He was hanging out at his office in his house. While former friends or aquaintenaces swung by and chatted.

He wasn't exactly creating an $80 million dollar world. But I caught a glimpse of the man behind id Software.

Sure, indie or underground games don't have the hedge fund stock holders breathing down your neck. Imagine being funded by Donald Trump's brother, a man who probably picks up a controller to look good. lol I have no idea if he does or doesn't (I hope he plays their games). But my point is, he makes millions based upon Bethesda and if they make any capital gains off big AAA games.

Remember when we were told to vote with our dollars? Investors aren't there to rub your feet while you work. That's just my guess. I remember when EA announced that you could bring your pets to work. That was a perk, but EA is still the devil.

I wouldn't expect indie devs or smaller studios to have crunch time. But sometimes you don't hear about these devs at all after a couple years.

Remember the VGA's when Geoff Keighley had that game where you played as a cave man? It was being made by a guy who had support from his family. I forgot the game's name. He isn't going to put hours upon hours at a corporate level with benefits and a million dollar sound studio. He doesn't have a team of 100 plus artists crafting a massive world with pages upon pages of voice work and code. That's almost impossible. Hello Games had so much sympathy and it took them a lot of criticism and probably some input. It's a hard pill to swollow when your company is behind one of the largest video game IP's in history.

Outside of that; I have to stay late where I work because they do taxes there. I know some CPA's that are there till almost midnight. The crunch is real when you have deadlines.

 

[thelastword]

At this point, we just have to expect that such huge games will have some serious crunch time, it's par for the course, especially if we want the quality we seek in our games. Hopefully, the devs can rest and recuperate after the title goes gold....or after the day 1 patch....I imagine when RDR2 gets top reviews and it sells a tonne, many of these folk will be happy they were involved.....Once this is not a Crytek situation, it's not all bad...

 

[Pingal]

Only Florence is a game worth mentioning. But again, that's a short story-centric mobile game.

 

[SonGoku]

He wasn't exactly creating an $80 million dollar world. But I caught a glimpse of the man behind id Software.
.

Exactly that's my point: for complex AAA games crunch is necessary evil
I can see how simple indie games development works better with a relaxed approach

At this point, we just have to expect that such huge games will have some serious crunch time, it's par for the course, especially if we want the quality we seek in our games. Hopefully, the devs can rest and recuperate after the title goes gold....or after the day 1 patch....I imagine when RDR2 gets top reviews and it sells a tonne, many of these folk will be happy they were involved.....Once this is not a Crytek situation, it's not all bad...

They may even have promised bonus on their contracts if the game does well

 

[Shang]

I dont think the problem is the fact that crunch exists, I think the problem is just how bad and how much crunch there is in game dev. Something's gotta give.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Sunless Sea is a pretty memorable game OP.

 

[Mercer_CAR]

what a bunch of classics..... geesh, maybe they should of sacrificed some of their Netflix binge to make something a little more ambitious lol

 

[AV]

dreams

Yeah, nobody thought they were crunching on dreams.

 

[RoyBrown7777]

I think slavery is acceptable as long as the end product is of high quality. I honestly only care about the end product who fuckin cares if they are happy at work. I'll be watch the Qatar world cup too.

 

[bitbydeath]

I think slavery is acceptable as long as the end product is of high quality. I honestly only care about the end product who fuckin cares if they are happy at work. I'll be watch the Qatar world cup too.

Do they not get paid for working additional hours?

 

[bati]

Endless Legend is supposed to be one of the best 4X games, just saying. And same devs also made Endless Space 1 and 2, of which the latter is also on the list.

 

[Mokus]

At least they get free pizza, or so I heard...

 

[DavidGzz]

D4 devs better be putting in 120 hours a week. Come on with it! (joke post)

 

[DiscoJer]

Endless Legends and Endless Space 2 are pretty big deals among 4x games. The rest seem to be very small studio or solo projects.

 

[{insert code here}]

I think slavery is acceptable as long as the end product is of high quality. I honestly only care about the end product who fuckin cares if they are happy at work. I'll be watch the Qatar world cup too.

What kind of salaries did slaves earn back in the day?

 

[Hudo]

Actually, Endless Space 1 and 2 are far from forgettable, IMHO. And I'm sure there will be some Sony/Playstation fans that will argue that Dreams isn't forgettable either. (Not a Playstation fan, but Dreams looks interesting).

I would be careful calling them forgettable. Conversely, not all "AAA" games that utilised crunch time during their (poorly planned) production are "memorable".

 

[DavidGzz]

I think slavery is acceptable as long as the end product is of high quality. I honestly only care about the end product who fuckin cares if they are happy at work. I'll be watch the Qatar world cup too.

Man, I had no idea slaves went to school to be slaves and got to pick their owners. Also, I didn't know they could walk away if they didn't want to work long hours sitting in $1,000 comfy chairs.

 

[onlyoneno1]

The only game I recognized there is Guacamelee 2. The first one was one of my favorite metroidvania beat'em ups.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

 

[Whitecrow]

Crunch hours is something the publisher needs, not the game.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Fuck that. Necessary evil? Only a heartless prick would require other people to ruin themselves for his/her entertainment.

 

[TheGreatYosh]

Unfortunately it takes a lot of work for greatness.

 

[FranXico]

In the wake of the Rockstar news about their crunch habits, Jan Willem Nijman (Vlambeer, Minit) posted on Twitter asking for devs to respond with games that were made crunch-free and got a lot of responses:
The interesting pattern i noticed is that these are all non memorable games or relaxed garage projects, out of the whole list the only game i recognized is velocity
Overall seems like a really bad attempt of Jan Willem to stir shit putting R* on the spot, it backfired horribly though considering no AAA titles made the list

In my opinion crunch is a necessary evil to add the final touches and polish that you find in masterpiece games, what's your take?

I love how you use such a subjective term as "memorable" to question and belittle the quality of all of these games (some of them are not even released yet).

Some of these games, such as Guacamelee 2 and the Velocity games, are very good games.

Maybe quality can be obtained without crunch.

 

[Daniel Pacheco]

I had the pleasure to meet Velocity 2X guys and the main problem with this list is that they are indie developers and the most of the times they are working all the day. I mean, since the beginning of the project they work 10:00 to 23:00 or later, they are every day developing the games with some rests but basicallly they live in a permanent crunch even working all the weekends, so yes, maybe the last month they do not try a crunch because they are in every day.

 

[Daniel Pacheco]

In the wake of the Rockstar news about their crunch habits, Jan Willem Nijman (Vlambeer, Minit) posted on Twitter asking for devs to respond with games that were made crunch-free and got a lot of responses:



Broken Age

Edge of Eternity

Endless Space 2

Guacamelee 2

Minit

Tormentor X Punisher

Those ones are very faumus too, but Edge of Eternity is not published yetr so... they can´t say that they didn´t do any crunch.

 

[ar0s]

Some excellent games on the list. Guacamelee 1 was one of the best Metroidvanias of all time. Velocity games were excellent. Bleed 1 & 2 are meant to be fun for what they are? Hohokum, Minit are cool. Dreams looks mind blowing. Others have noted there's some important 4x games on the list.

Interesting post (despite the dodgy intro) as we learned a lot of some cool games were made with no crunch.

There is a lot of garbage on the list though to be absolutely fair.

 

[Angry Fork]

What a garbage/nonsensical position. The crunch games have crunch because the game industry doesn't have unions, therefore most employees at most game companies end up crunching as they have no choice but to do so. You're taking evidence from a scenario where that's been the only allowed outcome for decades. How can anyone say crunch is necessary from a studio that is sitting on cash from one of the best selling franchises of all time.

It doesn't even make logical sense. Why would crunch be necessary when you can just ...extend the development time until it's done within a reasonable work week. You're acting like the world will end and all time will stop existing if a game isn't done within 3 months. Crunch is a business decision to save money, not a practical/"necessary" one. And anyone who actually has worked overtime or extended hours would know it's actually not productive at all. People get extremely tired, restless, moody, slack off, all justifiably so because they're agitated from unnecessarily long working hours.

Man, I had no idea slaves went to school to be slaves and got to pick their owners. Also, I didn't know they could walk away if they didn't want to work long hours sitting in $1,000 comfy chairs.

Why are you siding with millionaire bosses and corporation board rooms over programmers, artists, writers, actors etc.?

 

[SonGoku]

Fuck that. Necessary evil? Only a heartless prick would require other people to ruin themselves for his/her entertainment.

Its not about me or any entertainment, if they weren't pressured or coerced into working overtime its their personal desire and i respect that. As long as it is the devs desire to to push such masterpieces i don't see anything wrong with it, of course they should be paid accordingly as well.

You don't see people complaining about musicians practicing 24/7 instead they are admired for their vocation and their decision respected

Hohokum is far from forgettable! In a right state of mind (this may need some external help - a bong is a good start) you'll certainly remember your time with it.

Sunless Sea is a pretty memorable game OP.

Endless Legend is supposed to be one of the best 4X games, just saying. And same devs also made Endless Space 1 and 2, of which the latter is also on the list.

Endless Legends and Endless Space 2 are pretty big deals among 4x games. The rest seem to be very small studio or solo projects.

Actually, Endless Space 1 and 2 are far from forgettable, IMHO. And I'm sure there will be some Sony/Playstation fans that will argue that Dreams isn't forgettable either. (Not a Playstation fan, but Dreams looks interesting).

I would be careful calling them forgettable. Conversely, not all "AAA" games that utilised crunch time during their (poorly planned) production are "memorable".

I love how you use such a subjective term as "memorable" to question and belittle the quality of all of these games (some of them are not even released yet).

Some of these games, such as Guacamelee 2 and the Velocity games, are very good games.

Maybe quality can be obtained without crunch.

Some excellent games on the list. Guacamelee 1 was one of the best Metroidvanias of all time. Velocity games were excellent. Bleed 1 & 2 are meant to be fun for what they are? Hohokum, Minit are cool. Dreams looks mind blowing. Others have noted there's some important 4x games on the list.

Interesting post (despite the dodgy intro) as we learned a lot of some cool games were made with no crunch.

There is a lot of garbage on the list though to be absolutely fair.

Thanks for letting me know, i will be sure to check some of these games, although as stated in the OP im already familiar with velocity, very good game

It was more of a generalization, don't take it as a offense, even if a game is not memorable doesnt automatically mean its bad, it can still be very enjoyable to play. Im sure there are exceptions as well, but the thing is most of these exceptions are indie games that take years to see the light of day with no deadlines, some are just pet projects. Cant compare to the complexity and scale of a AAA game.

Also a very interesting post of someone familiar with indie development, thanks for the insight!

I had the pleasure to meet Velocity 2X guys and the main problem with this list is that they are indie developers and the most of the times they are working all the day. I mean, since the beginning of the project they work 10:00 to 23:00 or later, they are every day developing the games with some rests but basicallly they live in a permanent crunch even working all the weekends, so yes, maybe the last month they do not try a crunch because they are in every day.

So even indie devs without someone breathing down their necks resort to over time
I think its about time we accept the devs decision to crunch and show some respect for their work instead of dismissing it as bread and circus

 

[Lanrutcon]

Its not about me or any entertainment, if they weren't pressured or coerced into working overtime its their personal desire and i respect that. As long as it is the devs desire to to push such masterpieces i don't see anything wrong with it, of course they should be paid accordingly as well.

If they weren't pressured or coerced in any way, and they were paid for overtime, then it's fine.

But if you believe that's the general state of affairs in software development, then I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[BPoole]

Why do some people act like game devs should be exempt from crunch time? Any job I've ever had has had deadlines that need to be met and sometimes some crazy hours have to be worked in order to meet those deadlines. Yeah it sucks but a decent company usually compensates the employees with their year end bonus.

 

[The Scrivener]

*Looks at list. Sees game called Krunch.

lol. The irony.

Edit: Why do we still have "the crunch" when we now have "the patch"?

 

[SonGoku]

If they weren't pressured or coerced in any way, and they were paid for overtime, then it's fine.

But if you believe that's the general state of affairs in software development, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Of course! im only talking about the cases like RDR2 were its the devs own personal desition to advance the medium and i believe they should be paid accordingly for their efforts. Im not defending scummy pubs who exploit devs and don't pay them what they deserve, in the end forced crunch won't make a good game, without passion and personal conviction it won't ever reach greatness.

Im aware exploitation exists, im not defending it

 

[Fuz]

Game industry is not the only industry that does crunch time. They should stop thinking they're the only victims.

I have a friend who worked as a designer in Ferrari, he worked 18 hours a day and used to sleep in the office the weeks before a presentation. Same pay, of course.
I have another friend who works as a manager for a famous chain of restaurants in London. 13 hours every day (paid for 8).

My family had a bakery, my father worked from 2:00 AM (plus 1 hour to prepare the yeast at 5 PM) to about midday. On fridays, he worked from 8:00 PM to midday.
My mother had a market, she worked 10 hours every day. Add all the bureaucracy (which is notoriously AWFUL in Italy).
Neither had paid holiday, paid sick days or maternity leave. They were never able to take a single day off (business would have went to hell). My father got stuck in a machine and pulled his right hand nerves (after 20 years he isn't still able to close is right hand): the day after he was back at work with his hand in a cast hanging from his neck.

But poor game devs game industry is the worst

Edit: I'm not saying it's right. It's not.

 

[danielberg]

Rockstar literally produced the most profitable entertainment product in the history of entertainment... that they still basically treat their devs with shit like crunch time only tells me that their management needs to be fired.. preferably against a wall.

 

[Lanrutcon]

Why do some people act like game devs should be exempt from crunch time? Any job I've ever had has had deadlines that need to be met and sometimes some crazy hours have to be worked in order to meet those deadlines. Yeah it sucks but a decent company usually compensates the employees with their year end bonus.

Who set those deadlines? I bet it wasn't the developers. Do those deadlines rely on mandatory crunch time? Then it means someone in management fucked up. Crunch time is meant to be a reaction to the unexpected, at least when proper planning is involved. When it becomes staple then someone needs to re-evaluate how they're running projects, cause it sounds like they're happening at the expense of the employees. Burning people (and the talent and passion that comes with them) like candles to reach ill-conceived deadlines over and over is shitty and not sustainable.

 

[Ragnaroz]

Rockstar literally produced the most profitable entertainment product in the history of entertainment... that they still basically treat their devs with shit like crunch time only tells me that their management needs to be fired.. preferably against a wall.

Agreed. In my experience, crunch time is 99% of the time a managerial fault. They either don't manage resources properly or they overcommit and poof, devs need to work 16h days. Managers are also there during those, sure, but their job at that point is to just sit around and wait for actual work to be done.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Crunch is necessary for large teams. Every step introduces potential waste. There will be thresholds and corrections but this is why we've spent the last 140 years refining Gantt charts, lead-time, process mapping, agile development, etc etc buzzword etc

Crunch is not unique to the software development world. The tools and structures currently used by dev teams are not unique to the software development world. Why devs and digital artists think they're special snowflakes is beyond me. You decided to enter a highly-desirable, highly-competitive market with drink-coolers and rolling desks, but you're mad that the corporation wants to leverage your labor?

 

[petran79]

Cultist Simulator is a memorable and unique game too

 

[ruvikx]

Breaking news: good work requires... hard work. This shouldn't even be a topic of conservation but here we are in batsh*t crazy 2018 where hard work is deemed toxic, or something. Do the guys at Houston mission control in the 1960's/70's still b*tch about the crunch hours required during the moon landings? Methinks not.

 

[drotahorror]

It was more of a generalization, don't take it as a offense, even if a game is not memorable doesnt automatically mean its bad, it can still be very enjoyable to play. Im sure there are exceptions as well, but the thing is most of these exceptions are indie games that take years to see the light of day with no deadlines, some are just pet projects. Cant compare to the complexity and scale of a AAA game.

To be fair you did say they were ALL forgettable games. You kind of just shit on the work of a lot of developers.

I've heard of plenty of these games and some of them are considered classics, even if I have no interest in the genre (like 4x games). If you've only heard of 1 or 2, then I figure you only play console games or AAA games, no offense.

 

[NickFire]

That list is satire right?

 

[ruvikx]

Rockstar literally produced the most profitable entertainment product in the history of entertainment... that they still basically treat their devs with shit like crunch time only tells me that their management needs to be fired.. preferably against a wall.

Right, let's shoot them because their paid employees have to work for a living... aka what's wrong with this picture? I'm not laughing, BTW. This is no joke. I see the ever-so-obvious ugly face of literal communism 1.01 creeping into the collective psyche of useless millennials & it's getting worse by the day. Another News flash: It's a goddamn privilege to be a 3D artist/programmer & work on a title such as Red Dead Redemption 2 & its lofty ambitions + huge backing.

That's a fact.

 

[Clear]

Who set those deadlines? I bet it wasn't the developers. Do those deadlines rely on mandatory crunch time? Then it means someone in management fucked up. Crunch time is meant to be a reaction to the unexpected, at least when proper planning is involved. When it becomes staple then someone needs to re-evaluate how they're running projects, cause it sounds like they're happening at the expense of the employees. Burning people (and the talent and passion that comes with them) like candles to reach ill-conceived deadlines over and over is shitty and not sustainable.

The people who set deadlines tend to be the ones paying for the work, which I don't think is an unreasonable expectation. After all, who pays millions upfront for something and is perfectly cool upon being told; "It's coming, but you'll have to wait til next year for a finished product."

Especially so when often deadlines also predicate non-refundable expenditure like marketing and PR.

The thing that makes games different is that there are rarely quick-fixes when things start to slide. Fixing a movie after early cuts seem unpromising is a helluva lot easier and cheaper than a turning a game that stinks at Beta into a winner.

Contrary to what idiots like Jim Sterling say. Video Games ARE DIFFERENT. Its a stone-cold reality.

 

[BPoole]

Who set those deadlines? I bet it wasn't the developers. Do those deadlines rely on mandatory crunch time? Then it means someone in management fucked up. Crunch time is meant to be a reaction to the unexpected, at least when proper planning is involved. When it becomes staple then someone needs to re-evaluate how they're running projects, cause it sounds like they're happening at the expense of the employees. Burning people (and the talent and passion that comes with them) like candles to reach ill-conceived deadlines over and over is shitty and not sustainable.

The game development process is probably extremely complex and there are bound to be changes made throughout the dev cycle. The writers are probably the first in line since so many other things are dependent on the narrative/dialogue/story. So when changes get made to the story, the writers have to get into crunch time, otherwise the other teams of animators won't have new things to work on until the writers catch back up. That's just one example of how crunches can happen.

Most all fields have deadlines and/or variables that can screw over employees. For examole, I used to work at a law firm and sometimes we're would have to thoroughly prepare for things and I would end up working 80 hours weeks.

My sister works as an accountant at one of the biggest accounting firms in the US, and leading up to tax season she's putting in multiple 14 hour days.