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DF Retro: Castlevania Symphony of the Night In-Depth Analysis

I was oping you'd show the extra content!

The Half-Life episode didn't cover the platform-specific content either. Since these videos are mostly just focused on covering the technical differences in performance and graphical features, I assume these things are deliberately left out to make more room for that.

Watching now, but to whom it may concern, please continue making these videos. They're great in their own right, very informative, and more importantly don't risk any silly system wars.

Oh, just you wait until a 16-bit game is covered.
 
Looks like its an early release for DF Retro this week! I poured a lot of love into this one since it's a topic I've wanted to cover for a long time.

Great work on the video! As a longtime fan of knowing how games work, stuff like this is always super interesting to me! You mentioned at the start of the video that you're guessing about what the developers were attempting to do with the port, but did you read through the developer notes that are hidden away on the disc? Admittedly, I haven't read these notes in their entirety, but they seem to back up the findings you've made.

Anyway, thanks for the great video, it was a pleasure to watch!
 
Damn, I remember always thinking the resolution was rather shitty, but i didn't expect it to be sub 320
256 x 240 ?

(great video, just never really liked Sotn's visuals for a number of reasons)


Edit:
wait a minute !

Sega Saturn doesn't support 384 horizontal resolution ??? You sure about that ? Pretty sure the PSone does.
What about cps1/2 arcade ports then ? Are those 320 ?
 
No, no no. Listen - good pal games have a 60hz option, and a 50hz option. All they require is the option, simple as that, and everyone is catered for. Not using it is simply lazy and unforgivable.Your 2nd point about people 'being used to developing for 50hz' is utterly absurd to anyone who knows anything about game development, or just anyone anywhere. The systems are designed to output NTSC and 60hz, you develop the games in the same way.

Finally, yes I know PAL is a higher resolution, but the consoles were made for the NTSC market, so I hardly call 20% loss in speed and enforced borders resulting in a squashed display "swings and roundabouts", its no swings and all roundabouts.

I know it's good to debate and everyones opinion is valued, but lets just stamp this one out. 50hz console versions are shit, the end. Any more of this 'PAL is higher resolution, developers are used to 50hz' (lol) will result in a verbal spanking. Ta.
It wasnt great for us in PAL land at this time but you do know that 50/60Hz options weren't a thing until the Dreamcast came out right? So singling out any random game from a generation before it for not including an option that had never been done before seems weird to me.
 
Damn, I remember always thinking the resolution was rather shitty, but i didn't expect it to be sub 320
256 x 240 ?

(great video, just never really liked Sotn's visuals for a number of reasons)


Edit:
wait a minute !

Sega Saturn doesn't support 384 horizontal resolution ??? You sure about that ? Pretty sure the PSone does.
What about cps1/2 arcade ports then ? Are those 320 ?
320 is the lowest horizontal resolution supported by the Saturn. It supports much higher as well.
 
It wasnt great for us in PAL land at this time but you do know that 50/60Hz options weren't a thing until the Dreamcast came out right? So singling out any random game from a generation before it for not including an option that had never been done before seems weird to me.
Exactly, most PAL TVs sold didn't even support 60Hz until maybe the late 90s. I'd be guessing far less than 5% of TVs in use in PAL territories to 1997 could display 60Hz. Even a whole generation later it was only DC and GCN that consistently offered a PAL60 option.

Squashed, slow games were simply a consequence of mismatched worldwide TV standards, and the fact that the dominant markets were NTSC so they got their games designed for the lower resolution, faster screens. Some companies put in some effort to somewhat optimise their games for PAL (mostly just Nintendo, as it was a lot of work to manually adjust art assets and re-test the PAL versions, and speed would also have to be adjusted carefully so as not to break anything), and it's basically flat out impossible to adjust 2D games, pixels are pixels.

You can't even really blame the consoles, let alone the software, it was the TVs that couldn't do 60Hz.

Complaints abut the 50Hz Virtual Console games (and PAL PSN games) are legit, because years later these compromises are not necessary. But back in the 80s/90s it was simply how it had to be so people could play these games on their family TV sets.
 
This series is so clearly a labor of love from Dark. As someone who is more versed in modern graphics tech it's been absolutely fascinating to look at these older games that I remember fondly with such a close lens.
 
Alright, this video was absurdly good. Like, I kinda can't believe how in-depth it was. I learned stuff, and I rarely walk away from a gaming video on Youtube feeling like that.
 
It wasnt great for us in PAL land at this time but you do know that 50/60Hz options weren't a thing until the Dreamcast came out right? So singling out any random game from a generation before it for not including an option that had never been done before seems weird to me.

It should have either had a 60hz mode written, or been sped up. It was neither, and it stunk. PAL PS1 sucked. I should know, I had a JP launch model and a UK model 8 months later, everything about it was shit. The pads were made bigger and worse for "fat" european hands, all the games ran like dogshit, the machine was 299 with no memory card, so with a couple of games you were laying down 400 quid (in 1996, so that is £692 according to inflation calculator).

The boxes were terrible, the default lead was RF out, the catalogue was hopeless and slow releasing, games like Wip3out and Ridge Racer were mangled graphically, and games with chip music actually played it slower. Tekken felt like you were underwater.

Sorry, PAL ps1s are a complete joke, compared to my beautiful full speed fulls screen S video JP model, the PAL stuff was a slap in the face.
 
It should have either had a 60hz mode written, or been sped up. It was neither, and it stunk. PAL PS1 sucked. I should know, I had a JP launch model and a UK model 8 months later, everything about it was shit. The pads were made bigger and worse for "fat" european hands, all the games ran like dogshit, the machine was 299 with no memory card, so with a couple of games you were laying down 400 quid (in 1996, so that is £692 according to inflation calculator).

The boxes were terrible, the default lead was RF out, the catalogue was hopeless and slow releasing, games like Wip3out and Ridge Racer were mangled graphically, and games with chip music actually played it slower. Tekken felt like you were underwater.

Sorry, PAL ps1s are a complete joke, compared to my beautiful full speed fulls screen S video JP model, the PAL stuff was a slap in the face.
Interesting that Wipeout suffered, since that was developed in England.
 
Exactly, most PAL TVs sold didn't even support 60Hz until maybe the late 90s. I'd be guessing far less than 5% of TVs in use in PAL territories to 1997 could display 60Hz. Even a whole generation later it was only DC and GCN that consistently offered a PAL60 option.
.

RGB scart TVs were common by then, I had one in 1992.

If even Nintendo could speed up some 2d games to try and match NTSC speed, you'd think Sony could have managed 5 years later with a vastly more powerful machine. Nope, because Europe was treated with contempt.
 
Interesting that Wipeout suffered, since that was developed in England.

I'm pretty sure wipeout had it's speed corrected and screen stretched (ie : optimised) because as English devs, they knew. Wipeout 2097 certainly was as fast as the NTSC game (Wipeout XL) except it ran at 25fps not 30, and it had more music.
 
RGB scart TVs were common by then, I had one in 1992
What has a plug connector got to do with anything? Scart is just a plug, it has nothing to do with the refresh rates and broadcast standards the TV can support.

But yes Sony was particularly lazy in their PAL conversions, and yet they dominated anyway, showing that the general public had no clue.

Heck I read once the #1 accessory sold for the PS1 was an RF adapter.
 
Aye, it's something that really should be covered in more detail. Gets quite interested when you get to cases where they tried to optimise it. Super Mario Kart for instance doesn't seem to be as slow as a straight 50Hz release would be, yet it's still not quite at the NTSC pace.

pretty sure that's true, seem to remember super play having a different league for people time trialling mario kart using an import usa snes with a converter and a uk mario kart, this actually made it faster than the ntsc version if i remember right
 
What has a plug connector got to do with anything? Scart is just a plug, it has nothing to do with the refresh rates and broadcast standards the TV can support.

PAL could handle NTSC resolution and CRT tubes could do the refresh rate but they couldn't handle the colour profiles over composite. Thus NTSC images would appear as black and white and slightly distorted on a PAL screen. NOW, what happens if you take away the colour signal and have that part of the image sent as a separate RGB image instead? ;)

That's how PAL TV's could display NTSC content just fine when using an RGB SCART.
 
What has a plug connector got to do with anything? Scart is just a plug, it has nothing to do with the refresh rates and broadcast standards the TV can support.

You can't do 60hz on an old british TV with an aerial socket, you needed an RGB scart socket TV which 99% of the time also meant that it could take an NTSC input over your RGB scart lead.

I was doing this with my SNES in 92, there were plenty of 60hz compatible TVs by 96 - the option should have been there. It really amazes me the inanity of what people will argue, they will cling to their PAL versions like victims of a videogame Stockholm Syndrome.

I can't handle correcting any more brain wrongs, please, 50hz defenders, just assume I've told you off and laughed at you without me having to write it.
 
Okay, so, this is a personal and somewhat complex web of nonsense involving a highly unstable individual I was friends and briefly FWBs with, but I can only assume there will be a never-ending clusterfuck on gaf now until the end of time, which inevitably involves you guys and gals on the mod team in some way, so I'm an open book here. The woman in question ended up being completely psychotic and held a grudge against me after a bizarre love triangle situation developed a few years ago between me, her, and another girl (the other girl I ended up in a long-term relationship with shortly thereafter). This NOLA story she apparently just put up on social media is a delusion of a deeply disturbed person who had a total psychological breakdown as a result of me and the other girl getting together, because she (phew, yeah...) became obsessively infatuated with the other girl (she's bi) on sight when the three of us met up. I wanted to just stay friends with the girl making the accusation and made it super super clear ahead of time that me and the other girl were interested in each other romantically and that could play out as such when we met up. Supposedly this was not a problem for her from accusation, but in reality she uhhh wanted me to die painfully after seeing me and the other girl interact. Plus she became infatuated with the other girl simultaneously to this (she's bi), which created the aforementioned bizarre love triangle that ended up causing her to implode and have an apparently very intense and long-lasting grudge. The whole story about how that love triangle thing played out is, frankly, nuts and scary, and involves this girl bringing us to a compound of dangerous scientology spinoff cultists on that same trip, who roofied us, attempted to recruit/scam me and attempted to abduct/rape the girl I ended up dating, in what was a fucking scary situation that resulted in me and the other girl and the rest of my friend circle never speaking to this girl from the accusation again.
 
Very interesting, thanks for posting.

Which version / package should I get from NA PSN Store ?

rkDJuzY.jpg
 
PAL could handle NTSC resolution and CRT tubes could do the refresh rate but they couldn't handle the colour profiles over composite. Thus NTSC images would appear as black and white and slightly distorted on a PAL screen. NOW, what happens if you take away the colour signal and have that part of the image sent as a separate RGB image instead? ;)

That's how PAL TV's could display NTSC content just fine when using an RGB SCART.
Being able to support 60Hz refresh rates is a hardware feature, not a plug feature. Only some later 90s TVs support 60Hz, most earlier ones would roll the picture, irrespective of the plug type.

Plug type changes had some correlation of support for 60Hz, but the technology change is unrelated.

Colour profiles are another thing, and the in-between step was PAL60, (60Hz with PAL colour system) which is what the DC and GC did. It was developed for NTSC compatible VCRs and works over composite fine, no RGB required.

The black and white picture was from NTSC signals, not PAL60. And yes RGB bypasses that issue.

You can't do 60hz on an old british TV with an aerial socket, you needed an RGB scart socket TV which 99% of the time also meant that it could take an NTSC input over your RGB scart lead.
Sold from the late 90s does not equal in homes in the late 90s. People didn't buy TVs that often back then.

I was doing this with my SNES in 92, there were plenty of 60hz compatible TVs by 96 - the option should have been there. It really amazes me the inanity of what people will argue, they will cling to their PAL versions like victims of a videogame Stockholm Syndrome.
I'm not claiming in any way PAL was superior, but that it was understandable.

You're the one claiming SOTN should have had a 60Hz option, when NO games that generation did. Blame Sony, possibly, but there's no point complaining about one game from 1997 whe the vast majority of PAL TVs in use (not for sale at that time) would not have supported 60Hz.

It's not the way the game should be played today when you have other options, but it is literally no worse a PAL conversion that 99% of other PS1 games.

That said I think I'd take PAL PS1 over the PSP version. At least all the pixels are there in the correct ratios (albeit squashed) in the PAL PS1 version, PSP version is a scaled mess with ruined sound effects.

I can't handle correcting any more brain wrongs, please, 50hz defenders, just assume I've told you off and laughed at you without me having to write it.
How incredibly polite, when I haven't said a single thing that was factually incorrect.
 
Is it just me, or was the portrait-cam on the TV almost a subtle-troll to folks who said "don't put your face in the video!"?

The framing device helps but he still looks too stiff, as if he is sitting in a chair. I would like to see him try reclining a little bit more, let us know he is comfortable with his body even if we in the audience can not see it. Here is an example of what I am talking about:

8BoUW8n.jpg


Also, notice how much more open and inviting his face looks when he is not hiding it behind glasses? So, a couple of things for him to work on.
 
Very interesting, thanks for posting.

Which version / package should I get from NA PSN Store ?

rkDJuzY.jpg

Castlevania Chronicles doesn't really have SOTN, unless you care about playing a remake of the original Castlevania.

As for the SOTN packages. It's really up to you, it's about asking what do you really value Dracula X - has the better value as you get the Rondo remake, the Original PC-Engine version of Rondo of Blood, and SOTN in one game. Though it's worth mentioning that the older games are unlockables, so if you don't want to waste time, I suggest importing a save file that unlocked the games. SOTN looks blurry compared to the original, but has a bit of extra content in the form of revamped dialogues and voice acting, as well as Maria Renard as a playable character.

On the other hand, there's the SOTN PS1 classic which looks great on the Vita/PS3, has the hammy original dialogue and voice acting that is well-liked despite being hilariously bad. You get two playable characters: Alucard and Richter Belmont, and that's really it. It's exactly what you would have gotten if you bought the PS1 disc.
 
Castlevania Chronicles doesn't really have SOTN, unless you care about playing a remake of the original Castlevania.

As for the SOTN packages. It's really up to you, it's about asking what do you really value Dracula X - has the better value as you get the Rondo remake, the Original PC-Engine version of Rondo of Blood, and SOTN in one game. Though it's worth mentioning that the older games are unlockables, so if you don't want to waste time, I suggest importing a save file that unlocked the games. SOTN looks blurry compared to the original, but has a bit of extra content in the form of revamped dialogues and voice acting, as well as Maria Renard as a playable character.

On the other hand, there's the SOTN PS1 classic which looks great on the Vita/PS3, has the hammy original dialogue and voice acting that is well-liked despite being hilariously bad. You get two playable characters: Alucard and Richter Belmont, and that's really it. It's exactly what you would have gotten if you bought the PS1 disc.

Thank you so much for detailing these releases!
 
Another nice vid. Wish we would have gotten a from-the-ground-up, dedicated CV title for Sega's machine that gen, but Konami were clearly focused on PS1 and N64 over Saturn.
Wow, my first experience was the Xbox Arcade version, I had no idea there were FMV segments that got strippedt :O

You didn't miss anything substantial, though.
 
Thank you so much for detailing these releases!

If you're looking for the best SotN experience, definitely get it standalone as a PS1 Classic. Consider getting Dracula X Chronicles on sale for original Rondo of Blood - don't buy it just for SotN.
 
I was wondering John/dark10x, do you and/or the DF crew personally decide what games to cover on DF Retro? Any chance you could take audience suggestions for games to cover? :P
 
It should have either had a 60hz mode written, or been sped up. It was neither, and it stunk. PAL PS1 sucked. I should know, I had a JP launch model and a UK model 8 months later, everything about it was shit. The pads were made bigger and worse for "fat" european hands, all the games ran like dogshit, the machine was 299 with no memory card, so with a couple of games you were laying down 400 quid (in 1996, so that is £692 according to inflation calculator).

The boxes were terrible, the default lead was RF out, the catalogue was hopeless and slow releasing, games like Wip3out and Ridge Racer were mangled graphically, and games with chip music actually played it slower. Tekken felt like you were underwater.

Sorry, PAL ps1s are a complete joke, compared to my beautiful full speed fulls screen S video JP model, the PAL stuff was a slap in the face.
There's a ton of BS in this post.

PS1 pads were identical in worldwide, RF out was a seperate unit you had to buy, default was s video scart. The wipEout games were made in the UK and did not suffer the bad PAL port many Japanese and US games recieved in PAL territory.
 
320 is the lowest horizontal resolution supported by the Saturn. It supports much higher as well.

I know it supports higher, but that particular resolution (384x240) doesn't appear on the list of the supported modes shown in the video.

And I wonder what workaround was used for cps1/2 ports
 
Okay, so, this is a personal and somewhat complex web of nonsense involving a highly unstable individual I was friends and briefly FWBs with, but I can only assume there will be a never-ending clusterfuck on gaf now until the end of time, which inevitably involves you guys and gals on the mod team in some way, so I'm an open book here. The woman in question ended up being completely psychotic and held a grudge against me after a bizarre love triangle situation developed a few years ago between me, her, and another girl (the other girl I ended up in a long-term relationship with shortly thereafter). This NOLA story she apparently just put up on social media is a delusion of a deeply disturbed person who had a total psychological breakdown as a result of me and the other girl getting together, because she (phew, yeah...) became obsessively infatuated with the other girl (she's bi) on sight when the three of us met up. I wanted to just stay friends with the girl making the accusation and made it super super clear ahead of time that me and the other girl were interested in each other romantically and that could play out as such when we met up. Supposedly this was not a problem for her from accusation, but in reality she uhhh wanted me to die painfully after seeing me and the other girl interact. Plus she became infatuated with the other girl simultaneously to this (she's bi), which created the aforementioned bizarre love triangle that ended up causing her to implode and have an apparently very intense and long-lasting grudge. The whole story about how that love triangle thing played out is, frankly, nuts and scary, and involves this girl bringing us to a compound of dangerous scientology spinoff cultists on that same trip, who roofied us, attempted to recruit/scam me and attempted to abduct/rape the girl I ended up dating, in what was a fucking scary situation that resulted in me and the other girl and the rest of my friend circle never speaking to this girl from the accusation again.
 
Great video. If you are going to frame your head in a television you should go all out and do a Max Headroom homage. That would fit the retro theme. :p
 
I don't even know how it's possible for John to pump out one of these per week, but I'm looking forward to next week already.
Me neither. Might have to do simpler games sometimes just to handle it - especially if there's a big current gen game to cover.

I was wondering John/dark10x, do you and/or the DF crew personally decide what games to cover on DF Retro? Any chance you could take audience suggestions for games to cover? :P
So far I've been picking them myself but I do read the feedback and take suggestions into consideration.
 
However it has a bad AR which ruins the art.

Eh didn't bother me non.

Me neither. Might have to do simpler games sometimes just to handle it - especially if there's a big current gen game to cover.


So far I've been picking them myself but I do read the feedback and take suggestions into consideration.

Here's a game that'll be very interesting to do a video on:
Donald Duck Goin' Quackers, this has a dozen versions from handhelds to console and PC versions of the time.
 
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