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DF Retro: Metal Gear Solid 2 - A Kojima Masterpiece

I was a PC guy at the time, I remember how poorly the game ran on my machine, and how freaking huge those 8GB of HDD space seemed at the time. I think my HDD was 40GB.

Space_nut said:
I played mgs1 back in the ps1 days. One of my all time favorites. For me it's 1>= 3 > 2 >>>>>4. Haven't played 5 yet how is it?
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V is a blast in regards to gameplay and visuals but a turd story-wise. Nothing unexpected coming from 4 and Peace Walker tbh.
 
Thanks DF for mentioning the longer codec loading on HD Collection! It wasn't my imagination.

Did not know about the dual layer DVD for PS2 Substance. That explains a lot. The stuff about how the cutscenes were made was fascinating as someone who never got the Document of MGS2.

BTW one interesting little graphical change was the thermal goggles.

0DiB0JX.jpg


Top is vanilla ps2 release. Bottom is Substance.
 
2 is a good game but it is pretty boring in some spots. The whole intro thing with Raiden I wish I could skip every time. Freezing the fake bombs is so dull.
 
Metal gear 5 isn't worth the Blue-ray disc it is put on, too over-rated, yes it is a mechanically sound game, but immersion wise it's lost the plot..Metal gear 5 could have been Vice-City/Rambo 3 infused entry of the franchise...I'm thinking I might get the HD collection for the 360!
 
Space_nut said:
Heck nah splinter cell 1 - 3 were something else. Those were actually realistic hardcore stealth. Mgs weren't as hard for me. Choas Theory is the best stealth game ever till this day period
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I think they both have a lot of merits.

Splinter Cell has, in many ways, aged a lot worse than something like MGS2. The animation work was never as good and it was a little clunky but it was pretty ambitious.

My big issues with Splinter Cell single player is tied to the trial and error nature of the gameplay. It always felt as if there was one specific way through each area - maybe two in some spots - and trying to go outside of that would result in death or a very messy finish. The AI isn't super refined either.

There was more of a toy box element with Metal Gear where you have a wide array of tools within a very interactive environment with interesting AI.

...but I don't want to knock Splinter Cell, really, as it did a lot of amazing stuff. Also, the multiplayer in Pandora is one of my favorite memories of playing any MP game ever. It was unbelievably cool back in the day.

Sub_Level said:
Thanks DF for mentioning the longer codec loading on HD Collection! It wasn't my imagination.

Did not know about the dual layer DVD for PS2 Substance. That explains a lot. The stuff about how the cutscenes were made was fascinating as someone who never got the Document of MGS2.

BTW one interesting little graphical change was the thermal goggles.

0DiB0JX.jpg


Top is vanilla ps2 release. Bottom is Substance.
Click to expand...
Yes, you're absolutely right! I noticed this as well but didn't get a chance to include it. There are so many little things in the game that I'm sure I missed plenty of others as well. There's so much there. Good catch!
 
Easily the worst entry in the series, and a flat out bad game throughout many parts. There's no denying though that it was extremely impressive for the time, a technical achievement for sure and one of the biggest technical leaps ever compared to the previous gen.

Luckily Kojima came back in full force for its sequel, which was not only even more impressive tech wise but also one of the best games ever made.
 
Speaking of the Xbox verison, I remember how Snake's hair would have a white outline when playing those side missions of him on the Big Shell. It really bothered me back then and still does now haha.
 
RAIDEN1 said:
Could the Dreamcast have adequately have put out a good port of MGS2 I wonder...
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If it were possible, I would imagine that a Dreamcast conversion would look very VERY different indeed. The types of fill-rate heavy effects used in the game are not well suited to the DC.

Even still, the controller might be the most limiting factor there.
 
To be honest, MGS2 is not one of my favorite games in the series, I really prefer the original. But on a technical level, the game was so well designed on the PS2. They managed to work around the limitations of the PS2's texture memory and focus on the strengths of the post processing effects. Also, the 60fps framerate was a good choice too, in retrospect. Yeah, the trade off was lower polygon models, but it was still effective. I still remember the E3 debut, it was a big event for the time. Really well deserved.

I had the PC version when I was younger, and hoo-boy, I also had an ATi Radeon 9800 Pro and yeah, it didn't look so good at all in comparison to the same game running on an Nvidia card.

Also, unrelated to MGS, but it is possible to add interactive polls to youtube videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq-sXqt_bhE

But yeah, I choose frequency 140.98.
 
The funny thing is that despite the praise we have for this game visually now, I remember the same internet debates and fanboy wars about it back in the day:

I remember on message boards people calling it a good-looking game but not holding a candle to Rogue Squadron due to the anti-aliasing issues of MGS2 (in fact, I remember the term "jaggies" being thrown around a lot with PS2 games, especially in that first year).

I remember Kojima talking about the PS2 actually not being able to do movie-like visuals getting a lot of traction from Dreamcast fans.

Time usually sorts out a lot of the noise.
 
This is your magnum opus, dark10x.

Still watching this video, I'm impressed how clean the PS2 original still looks on a TV in this video. It honestly looks perfectly acceptable despite the evidently low resolution. Franly MGS2 is as much an aesthetic achievement as it is a technical one.
 
Theslammer said:
The funny thing is that despite the praise we have for this game visually now, I remember the same internet debates and fanboy wars about it back in the day:

I remember on message boards people calling it a good-looking game but not holding a candle to Rogue Squadron due to the anti-aliasing issues of MGS2 (in fact, I remember the term "jaggies" being thrown around a lot with PS2 games, especially in that first year).

I remember Kojima talking about the PS2 actually not being able to do movie-like visuals getting a lot of traction from Dreamcast fans.

Time usually sorts out a lot of the noise.
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I mean, Rogue Squadron is leaps and bounds above any PS2 game technically, but it ran on a considerably more powerful console and was made by one of the most technically proficient teams of all time, maybe even the best back then. So this doesn't really detract from the technical achievement that MGS2 was in 2001 in any way, but i guess that fanboy wars in 2001 weren't much different than they are today lol.

Even the part about PS2 being or not being able to do movie-like visuals scarily reminds me of the "PS4 and Xbox One are capable of Avatar-like graphics in real time" bullshit that was all the rage a few years ago.
 
Around the time that MGS VR Missions released I remember reading that portions of the opening movie were rendered on a PS2 devkit. Is there any truth to this? I know that the games press would make up a lotta stuff back then, also didn't see it mentioned in the video.
 
Rodin said:
I mean, Rogue Squadron is leaps and bounds above any PS2 game technically, but it ran on a considerably more powerful console and was made by one of the most technically proficient teams of all time, maybe even the best back then. So this doesn't really detract from the technical achievement that MGS2 was in 2001 in any way, but i guess that fanboy wars in 2001 weren't much different than they are today lol.

Even the part about PS2 not being able to do movie-like visuals scarily reminds me of the "PS4 and Xbox One are capable of Avatar-like graphics in real time" bullshit that was all the rage a few years ago.
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Yeah, for sure. Technically speaking, Rogue Squadron is doing things the PS2 simply isn't capable of.

...but, aside from that, it's a little wobbly in spots. The in-game cutscenes look pretty ugly at points (especially when focusing on smaller details) and the frame-rate isn't rock solid. Still an amazing effort, though, and it gets a pass by me on those issues due to it being a launch game. Hard to complain when you take that into consideration.
 
Sure, Rogue Squadron is technically nice, but MGS2 is vastly more impressive and interesting, graphically. Knowing a lot of the effects in MGS2 were not "free" and had to be done in software and thoroughly thought out just gives me all the right feelings. Not taking away from a lot of possible effort that was likely put into RS, but, you know, I guess Star Wars has to be brought up in every possible way these days.

Thanks for all the hard work dark10x - throughly enjoyed this over my coffees this morning.
 
I've been wanting this episode ever since DF Retro started.

Now it's finally here!
And it's just what I hoped for.

I never got to play the game on PC. I had the PC version for a while but it ran all but once (with A LOT of graphical glitches) and then never again, for some weird reason.

Anyway, this was a very good video.
 
Rodin said:
I mean, Rogue Squadron is leaps and bounds above any PS2 game technically, but it ran on a considerably more powerful console and was made by one of the most technically proficient teams of all time, maybe even the best back then. So this doesn't really detract from the technical achievement that MGS2 was in 2001 in any way, but i guess that fanboy wars in 2001 weren't much different than they are today lol.

Even the part about PS2 being or not being able to do movie-like visuals scarily reminds me of the "PS4 and Xbox One are capable of Avatar-like graphics in real time" bullshit that was all the rage a few years ago.
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Yup, that's why fanboy wars continue to be annoying, but they're not new or that much dumber than they were back in the day.

BigTnaples said:
Not even close. 4 and V exist. As does portable ops.


Sorry for the double post, thought the thread was moving faster.
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V is the best, though.
 
jett said:
MGS4 is the worst MGS game.

Barack-Obama-Saying-It-is-Law.gif
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I'd go with Peace Walker myself, but both 4 and PW are low points in the series. I don't think it's a coincidence that both games share the common issue of being developed on hardware that wasn't capable of pulling off the scope that KojiPro were aiming for, as well as being fraught with all kinds of ugly performance issues.
 
Has there ever been a game that its community response has taken such a 180? Upon it's release fans HATED it, and continued to do so years after. Yet by the time the next generation was fully in gear it seemed to be a contender for best in the series.
 
This game is almost 16 years old and after watching that video I learned something I didn't know before: you can shoot monitors and make them spark/smoke.
 
Nuu said:
Has there ever been a game that its community response has taken such a 180? Upon it's release fans HATED it, and continued to do so years after. Yet by the time the next generation was fully in gear it seemed to be a contender for best in the series.
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I think the only one that would come close enough for their to be an argument is Wind Waker, and even then, I would put that on a much lower rung on the ladder of redemption than MGS2.
 
Space_nut said:
Heck nah splinter cell 1 - 3 were something else. Those were actually realistic hardcore stealth. Mgs weren't as hard for me. Choas Theory is the best stealth game ever till this day period
Click to expand...
The OG Splinter Cells were fun but realistic they aren't. AI isn't as reactive as MGS2's including comms, interactivity is way lesser, Sam in RL would be a bear of a man who is hard not to spot in such urban spaces, the Van Damme split is hella ridic, etc
 
Hope John will look at Jak 1 when the PS2 classic is out on PS4, that game was a miracle when I first play it on the PS2. Thought I was playing a Xbox game.
 
Not watched the video yet but thanks John for uploading the E3 trailer in such high quality and at 60fps!

I was 17 at the time and still remember sitting with some mates and one of my first cans of lager waiting on the trailer video sloooooooowly loading and not being able to resist watching what I could every 30 mins (they thought I was insane). I think it took a good 5 hours to completely load then the next week I remember buying a PS2 magazine and getting it on a free DVD before I even had a DVD player lol! Good times.
 
A Brilliant video once again - I really enjoyed the codec sections as well.

A big thank you for trailer upload. You're doing gods work there, son. And what a trailer - damn that MGS2 theme music is something else too.
 
This was the first in the series to have a time jump mid game and I always thought that hurt the pacing.

Also, the codec conversations between people in the same room was pretty lazy.
 
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