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[quest]

I don't believe for a second Sony is going to use any AMD CPU for its next console. It just makes not sense to use the Phenom 2 and even worse the power hungry huge Bulldozer. They are not going ARM as they are still trying to catch the crappy atom in processing power. The next Sony box will be some sort of IBM processor and AMD graphics chip. I don't think we will see much difference in the next gen boxes except which gimick they try to use to sell em.

 

[TheExodu5]

I wouldn't be surprised to see something Fusion based.

 

[Emitan]

It's a PC. It can run programs and apps and all that computery stuff that's made by SATAN

 

[quest]

I wouldn't be surprised to see something Fusion based.

Why would they use the fusion? The most powerful fusion APU has a very week GPU and old CPU. Sure it is better than the on board Intel 3000 but nothing you would put in a next gen console. Even the next gen APUs are using 384 GCN processors. That is not much at all. People were up in arms with MS using something like the 7770 that uses 640 GCNs.

 

[gatti-man]

Sure, let's put x86 to everything under the sun.

How boring. I miss the old times where every platform was its own world.

This makes absolutely zero sense.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

It's a PC. It can run programs and apps and all that computery stuff that's made by SATAN

But can it run Crysis?

 

[Boss Man]

I think people may be reading too much into this. I bet it's ultimately just the realization that novel technology in consoles isn't a great idea. It's better to have something that's easy to develop for than something that's different and potentially more powerful- in the console space at least. I read this like the PS4 is going to be a PC inasmuch as the 360 is a PC.

 

[KageMaru]

what part of that statement is untrue?

As for kutaragi, he was the single best man to work for sony after ohga. Sony has no one of his calibre working for their playstation division anymore. Ken believed in a unique sony. Company nowadays is run by me too people.

For good reason. It's not cost nor performance effective to follow in Ken's way.

I think you're insulting those that work at Sony for saying none of them are up to Ken's caliber. There are plenty of equally smart people who work at Sony, there's only one key difference: they live on this planet called Earth.

 

[Pistolero]

Sure, let's put x86 to everything under the sun.

How boring. I miss the old times where every platform was its own world.

Except that in the old times, differentiation was based on content, never once on the guts of the machines...

 

[Blizzard]

Sure, let's put x86 to everything under the sun.

How boring. I miss the old times where every platform was its own world.

This seems like it would make porting games more difficult, though, and thus harder for developers to expand their audience.

 

[Pistolero]

For good reason. It's not cost nor performance effective to follow in Ken's way.

I think you're insulting those that work at Sony for saying none of them are up to Ken's caliber. There are plenty of equally smart people who work at Sony, there's only one key difference: they live on this planet called Earth.

It's just that some forumers are so caught up in the gaming war mentality they refuse to let go of potential weapons (My console's got Cell...) the functionning of wich they don't even understand.

 

[hao chi]

Not too surprised. I had a feeling they would do this before, and abandoning Cell nearly confirmed it for me.

 

[StevieP]

wont happen.

even with bad ps3 launch , PS3 is expected to sell ~100m LTD , largely because of strong and loyal european customers. SONY would come all guns blazing for PS4

ITT, we bring the crazy.

The main problem with next generation consoles is that for the first time day one games will look better on PC than consoles. In fact if they launch next year an AMD 7850 on today's PCs still will be more powerful than their GPUS by far...

So, I think we are living a triumphal PC revival.

Fixed that for you. And TBH, the reason mobile (and in turn, handhelds) computing has had such a boon has been because of smartphones. In the desktop space, companies like AMD and Nvidia have given us better graphics processing technology by drastically increasing power consumption over the past decade. PCIe 3.0 exists for a reason.

Questions for some of you more tech sapient fellow.

If the PS4 comes out in late 2013 or 2014, possibly using 'off the self' hardware which is already locked down and no more than a year old, what are some realistic expectations for the system? 6000-8000 series GPU, 4 or more Piledriver or Steamroller cores, 40nm or 28nm, super low TDP. Help me out.

You're quite on the money.

Is it possible that if the system isn't released until 2014, Sony could somehow manage to include a high-end GPU and price the barebones SKU for 299.99??

Except for this part. Low, medium, and medium-high end GPU parts are all good contenders for consoles, but the high-end of the spectrum is not feasible, physics-wise. The $299 part is just way out there. That's not going to happen, not even to the Wii U I don't think (which will be on the lower end of the hardware spectrum next gen).

if that happens, say good bye to sony as a games manufacturer

Dude, c'mon.

I don't believe for a second Sony is going to use any AMD CPU for its next console. It just makes not sense to use the Phenom 2 and even worse the power hungry huge Bulldozer. They are not going ARM as they are still trying to catch the crappy atom in processing power. The next Sony box will be some sort of IBM processor and AMD graphics chip. I don't think we will see much difference in the next gen boxes except which gimick they try to use to sell em.

Who said it's going to be Bulldozer?

Why would they use the fusion? The most powerful fusion APU has a very week GPU and old CPU. Sure it is better than the on board Intel 3000 but nothing you would put in a next gen console. Even the next gen APUs are using 384 GCN processors. That is not much at all. People were up in arms with MS using something like the 7770 that uses 640 GCNs.

7770 is a great performance target in the console space. But in either case, if Sony is planning on an APU or SoC, nobody said it's going to take an existing one and just shove it in a console and be done with it. There will be customization involved. As an example, the 2013 high-end APU (Kaveri) will be using a mid-end GCN GPU part mashed with a 4-6 Steamroller cores. But they would certainly customize clocks and cores when designing its console contemporary.

 

[BruiserBear]

Anything that further discredits Krazy Ken's Krazy Legacy is fine by me. Spiteful of me true but I really disliked both the Emotion Engine and the Cell.

Why would someone have a personal dislike of a processor in a gaming console? Unless you programmed games for them.

 

[Giant Panda]

What's the difference between an APU and a SoC in this case?

 

[Xellos]

Using a customized version of AMD's 2013 APU would make a lot of sense.

 

[StevieP]

What's the difference between an APU and a SoC in this case?

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/new...ove-to-soc-with-28nm-krishna-and-wichita.aspx

Give that a read.

Ken's way is still the most cost affective and has the greater more performance. You telling be a 32 spu cell @4ghz is going to be more costly and less of a performance than some drumped up bulldozer or arm cpu?


There is literally no one at sony playstation division that compares to ken at the moment. Sony's crazy engineers primarly reside in sony electronics division and even they are under the thumb of some clueless marketing buisness execs.


Sony is turning out to be a me too company. It's losing it's indvidualism bit by bit. until one day it will be just another electronics manufacturer.

I don't even know where to begin.

 

[Vaporizer]

For good reason. It's not cost nor performance effective to follow in Ken's way.

I think you're insulting those that work at Sony for saying none of them are up to Ken's caliber. There are plenty of equally smart people who work at Sony, there's only one key difference: they live on this planet called Earth.

Ken's way is still the most cost affective and has the greater more performance. You telling me a 32 spu cell @4ghz is going to be more costly and less of a performance than some drumped up bulldozer or arm cpu?


There is literally no one at sony playstation division that compares to ken at the moment. Sony's crazy engineers primarly reside in sony electronics division and even they are under the thumb of some clueless marketing buisness execs.


Sony is turning out to be a me too company. It's losing it's indvidualism bit by bit. until one day it will be just another electronics manufacturer.

 

[BUCKFUSH187]

This is actually a very good step in the right direction for sony. Moves like this make me believe in sony again. Where they are actually thinking about what they are doing before they do it.

The name of the game is development tools. They have to make it easy to create games. Thats the key.

 

[quest]

7770 is a great performance target in the console space. But in either case, if Sony is planning on an APU or SoC, nobody said it's going to take an existing one and just shove it in a console and be done with it. There will be customization involved. As an example, the 2013 high-end APU (Kaveri) will be using a mid-end GCN GPU part mashed with a 4-6 Steamroller cores. But they would certainly customize clocks and cores when designing its console contemporary.

The Kaveri is still going to be a low end part in the PC world in 2013. Even if they double the GNCs from what the trinity will have it will still only have 1/2 or 1/3 of GCN processors a mid range 9770 will have. That and the clocks won't be nearly as high because of the huge die with the CPU onboard. So you are looking at maybe 25% of a mid level GPU of 2013. I will be really disapointed if the PS4 is just a low end PC. I sure the heck won't pay anything over 249.99 for a low end PC.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

next thing you're going to tell me is the UI will make sense and be navigable! what sort of a "SONY" console is this??!

 

[ThaiGrocer]

If it's true that it's basically a standardized x86-64 computer that will get cheaper as it ages, as a customer, I'd be super excited. If they can't compete by locking devs into their hardware, then they will essentially be trying their best in making it a good experience in a thinly-walled garden (for the sake of convenience) + standardization of what customers have. I'd gladly spend my money on another console cycle that I wasn't planning to spend time with if that were the case. /naivelydreaming

 

[Marco1]

Serious question, would GT5 have released any earlier if PS3 were dev friendly and would it have looked better or worse ?

 

[infinityBCRT]

Going x86 and going to AMD makes NO sense at all on the CPU side IMHO, at least considering what Intel and AMD have in their public roadmap right now.

If you want to go x86, AMD is the ONLY option. Intel's licensing is way too draconian for anyone to want to go down that road. I don't know about nVidia now but they were pretty bad back in the day. Thats why MS dropped Intel and nVidia in one go, and went early on the Xbox 360, they had no control over the hardware (such as being able to shrink it down and manufacture it themselves) and were being forced to pay high markups.

 

[gofreak]

Serious question, would GT5 have released any earlier if PS3 were dev friendly and would it have looked better or worse ?

I don't think the bottleneck in GT5's development was hardware related, but linked to asset production.

 

[J-Rzez]

More PC-like huh? Time to call up some Google execs and strike a deal. You know they want to get into living rooms badly no matter how they play it off. Get established there before Apple "actually" does. Have Google eat the costs for 8GB of RAM... one can dream, right?

 

[Vaporizer]

Serious question, would GT5 have released any earlier if PS3 were dev friendly and would it have looked better or worse ?

It's really funny when you think about it. Kaz said polyphony had to throw away all their coding software from the ps2 era and start fresh to design for a new architecture.


If sony goes for another processor, polyphony would have to go through all that pain again for GT6. Having the cell next gen means polyphony can release gt6 much quickly because they can still use their legacy code from this gen

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

So since consoles are becoming more like PCs, can we just drop consoles and stick strictly to PCs?

People say things like this but the problem with this line of thinking is exclusives. It's NEVER been about the hardware, at least with me. Hell, if it weren't for exclusives all I would have is a PC, there would be no need to buy consoles, portables, etc. But exclusives aren't going anywhere, so I will continue to buy the Sony consoles for Uncharteds, Nintendo Consoles for Marios, and MS consoles for Halos. I am not interested in a Vita because it is portable, but because it has exclusive versions of games like UC and Lumines. There are good games on every console. Personally, I am not going to dismiss good games just because I don't want to spend $300 on the new console, though its very easy for people to dismiss a selection of games as "crap" if they don't have/want to drop the dough on one.

 

[Blitzzz]

Sony Vaio Playstation 4

 

[BUCKFUSH187]

People say things like this but the problem with this line of thinking is exclusives. It's NEVER been about the hardware, at least with me. Hell, if it weren't for exclusives all I would have is a PC, there would be no need to buy consoles, portables, etc. But exclusives aren't going anywhere, so I will continue to buy the Sony consoles for Uncharteds, Nintendo Consoles for Marios, and MS consoles for Halos. I am not interested in a Vita because it is portable, but because it has exclusive versions of games like UC and Lumines. There are good games on every console. Personally, I am not going to dismiss good games just because I don't want to spend $300 on the new console, though its very easy for people to dismiss a selection of games as "crap" if they don't have/want to drop the dough on one.

not only that. But ease of use too. the fact that consoles are standardized and tweeked to play the games that are sold for them. You dont have to adjust settings or what not. Plug and play.

Also i think people are missing the point that this will actually be better for game development. Making it easier for devs to create games.

 

[b3b0p]

A PC + Playstation Suite = Playstation 4

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Hmm, if the PS4 is essentially a PC, it will attract hackers like bees to honey, i don't care how good the encryption & protection is, if its made by man, it can be broken by man.

If the source code to the games are essentially x86 C++/assembly code, using Direct X Gfx layers, then once you get past said security layers, there is nothing to stop a PS4 game being dumped and running it on any PC with a powerful enough CPU & GPU.

 

[AndyD]

More PC-like huh? Time to call up some Google execs and strike a deal. You know they want to get into living rooms badly no matter how they play it off. Get established there before Apple "actually" does. Have Google eat the costs for 8GB of RAM... one can dream, right?

Yep. Make a Playstation/Google/Steam box and you win the living room in one fell swoop.

 

[Krauser Kat]

The Kaveri is still going to be a low end part in the PC world in 2013. Even if they double the GNCs from what the trinity will have it will still only have 1/2 or 1/3 of GCN processors a mid range 9770 will have. That and the clocks won't be nearly as high because of the huge die with the CPU onboard. So you are looking at maybe 25% of a mid level GPU of 2013. I will be really disapointed if the PS4 is just a low end PC. I sure the heck won't pay anything over 249.99 for a low end PC.

People right now are buying super fucking terrible low end computers in attractive casing for 250. This is huge jump around the same price point. probably.

 

[AndyD]

Hmm, if the PS4 is essentially a PC, it will attract hackers like bees to honey, i don't care how good the encryption & protection is, if its made by man, it can be broken by man.

If the source code to the games are essentially x86 C++/assembly code, using Direct X Gfx layers, then once you get past said security layers, there is nothing to stop a PS4 game being dumped and running it on any PC with a powerful enough CPU & GPU.

Right. Except the current trend is towards being online, and they can go to a DD or cd key type authorization system where you cant really do much if you copy/rip/burn the game.

 

[cyberheater]

Ken's way is still the most cost affective and has the greater more performance. You telling me a 32 spu cell @4ghz is going to be more costly and less of a performance than some drumped up bulldozer or arm cpu?


There is literally no one at sony playstation division that compares to ken at the moment. Sony's crazy engineers primarly reside in sony electronics division and even they are under the thumb of some clueless marketing buisness execs.


Sony is turning out to be a me too company. It's losing it's indvidualism bit by bit. until one day it will be just another electronics manufacturer.

This thread does bring out the crazies.

So if the rumours are true and PS4 is basically a PC but launches with Wipeout, Killzone, Uncharted and MGS. Are you saying you're not going to buy one because it doesn't have a Cell in it?

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I'll be pretty bummed if we end up with three ~Llano level performance systems for the next generation. I wouldn't be surprised to see a market crash, Atari style, if no one is going to offer a 10x bump.

wait wait wait

so you think 3 affordable systems, with modest bumps are going to lead to a crash? But 3 599.99 us dollar 10x bumps wouldn't?

WOW

I don't even......that's......how do you........because that's what people want MORE POWAH!, that's why the Wii only sold like 10 systems this gen right?

 

[Vaporizer]

Hmm, if the PS4 is essentially a PC, it will attract hackers like bees to honey, i don't care how good the encryption & protection is, if its made by man, it can be broken by man.

If the source code to the games are essentially x86 C++/assembly code, using Direct X Gfx layers, then once you get past said security layers, there is nothing to stop a PS4 game being dumped and running it on any PC with a powerful enough CPU & GPU.

One of the best things about the cell is it's security. Who ever designed that isolated spu method at ibm deserves praise. If it wasn't for the incompetence of sony's software engineers at implementing cryptology, the ps3 would have remained unhacked forever.

 

[Toki767]

So if it's not using the Cell CPU, what are the odds of the PS4 not getting PS3 backwards compatibility?

 

[gofreak]

Hmm, if the PS4 is essentially a PC, it will attract hackers like bees to honey, i don't care how good the encryption & protection is, if its made by man, it can be broken by man.

If the source code to the games are essentially x86 C++/assembly code, using Direct X Gfx layers, then once you get past said security layers, there is nothing to stop a PS4 game being dumped and running it on any PC with a powerful enough CPU & GPU.

Sony won't be using DirectX.

They'll be using their own OS with their own libs.

The scenario you talk about would be like taking windows software and simply running it on Linux or something.

 

[AAK]

Looks like Sony knows what it's doing this time around.

 

[StevieP]

The Kaveri is still going to be a low end part in the PC world in 2013. Even if they double the GNCs from what the trinity will have it will still only have 1/2 or 1/3 of GCN processors a mid range 9770 will have. That and the clocks won't be nearly as high because of the huge die with the CPU onboard. So you are looking at maybe 25% of a mid level GPU of 2013. I will be really disapointed if the PS4 is just a low end PC. I sure the heck won't pay anything over 249.99 for a low end PC.

I didn't say this would amount to Kaveri, just that if true it would be similar to it. Nothing is stopping Sony from asking AMD to throw in a few more compute units. It all depends on cost target and thermal properties, in the end.

It's really funny when you think about it. Kaz said polyphony had to throw away all their coding software from the ps2 era and start fresh to design for a new architecture.

If sony goes for another processor, polyphony would have to go through all that pain again for GT6. Having the cell next gen means polyphony can release gt6 much quickly because they can still use their legacy code from this gen

The biggest detriment to GT5 wasn't coding, it was asset production. And whether you have a Cell or an x86-64 you're going to run into that same problem. Except moreso, because the next console will have more juice than the PS3 does and require better/more assets.

That said, x86 would give the coders less of a headache, even if they have come to terms with Cell now. I don't understand why you keep asking Sony to make a Wii from a Gamecube. I thought we all hated the Wii here?

One of the best things about the cell is it's security. Who ever designed that isolated spu method at ibm deserves praise. If it wasn't for the incompetence of sony's software engineers at implementing cryptology, the ps3 would have remained unhacked forever.

Jesus. Nevermind.

 

[iKeepPlaying]

This thread does bring out the crazies.

So if the rumours are true and PS4 is basically a PC but launches with Wipeout, Killzone, Uncharted and MGS. Are you saying you're not going to buy one because it doesn't have a Cell in it?

I won't buy it because, if it doesn't have Cell on it, I probably won't be able to play PS3 games on it.
Sorry, but I don't want to buy another PS3 on top of a PS4, in case my current one bites the dust.

 

[njean777]

Then they should start implementing servers specifically for them types of people who rather play with a controller than KB/M. That way you can have it all, use either depending on how you're feeling at the moment. Enough closed off systems telling you what to do. You do what you want to do. The gaming industry will have to follow suit.

We have tons of tools for a PSN/Live like friends network. Steam being #1 at the moment, but you can pick whichever you and your friends like.

Thats fine that you and me know about the services, but most people do not. And it is up to the developers to implement those servers not to me and you. Like I said until people become more informed we will be stuck with consoles for the foreseeable future.

 

[Sentenza]

One of the best things about the cell is it's security. Who ever designed that isolated spu method at ibm deserves praise. If it wasn't for the incompetence of sony's software engineers at implementing cryptology, the ps3 would have remained unhacked forever.

I'm not sure why people think this is a good thing.
It's the piracy fairy tale?
PS3 being the hardest Playstation to hack ironically leaded to PS3 being the first Playstation that din't completely dominate the console market.

 

[DeFiBkIlLeR]

Sony won't be using DirectX.

Well if they dont use Direct X, then they will use OpenGL (as they do with PS3)...which will still work on a PC.

I doubt very much they are going to write their own GFX SDK from the ground up, thats a MASSIVE undertaking, and just gives a headache to the devs having to learn a brand new programming set, which kind of defeats the purpose in making PS4 dev friendly

 

[Always-honest]

On the one hand, Sony need to do this. They can't afford a super-complicated beastie when MS have already made it clear that PC architecture is the way forward. On the other hand, I'm worried about BC. Not sure if good news.

Is that really so important? How many old games do you still play on a new console?
Serious question, not saying you shouldn't care about bc .

I do play older games every now and then, but usually on the old consoles they were released on (i keep them).

 

[pestul]

Looks like Sony knows what it's doing this time around.

Exactly. If Sony can get a nice system based on this tech out by the end of 2013, it should be quite successful. This might be a good 'eat crow' thread to bring up in couple of years. Of course it could bite me in the rear, but I think Sony have made good choices if the rumours are true.

 

[quest]

wait wait wait

so you think 3 affordable systems, with modest bumps are going to lead to a crash? But 3 599.99 us dollar 10x bumps wouldn't?

WOW

I don't even......that's......how do you........because that's what people want MORE POWAH!, that's why the Wii only sold like 10 systems this gen right?

I am sorry but I see no reason to upgrade next generation if all we get is modest bump and a new gimick. If that is the case we will be gaming at 720P again next generation sigh. I want a console that can handle games in 1080p. Also it should not cost 599.99 to get a serious bump in power. By fall of 2013 they should be able to put together a box that has 1128 GCNs and a solid CPU with 4 gigs of ram for 399.99. If all next generation machines are just low end PCs with a few gimick for 299.99 it will be a complete rip off.

 

[cyberheater]

I'm not sure why people think this is a good thing.
It's the piracy fairy tale?
PS3 being the hardest Playstation to hack ironically leaded to PS3 being the first Playstation that din't completely dominate the console market.

I have to say. I knew a lot of guys that had PS2 and the only reason they had them was because they were hacked. It certainly helped selling hardware.