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[patsu]

If they deleted bluray entirely from the offerings they wouldnt have needed cell at all.

That's debatable. Cell and Blu-ray serve very different needs. Without Blu-ray, they would still use Cell for its security, doubling up GPU work, PS2 emulation. Blu-ray gives PS3 a larger storage, and additional media features.

The most glaring problem being memory was too little, especially after putting in the original OS.

I remember they overspent in building the custom Cell fab. Even today, they didn't need the extra fab. It was sold to Toshiba and then Sony bought it back again for producing their latest image sensors. The original PS3 also had a full PS2 chipset for b/c.

 

[Sheikh]

They would abandon Cell because it's a dead-end, that's why. Further sunk R&D to refresh the architecture is probably better spent elsewhere. Like customizing a new AMD architecture to suit their needs or something.

Its dead end and this is why AMD/INTEL are just building their processors based on CELL's model. AMD architecture?? then why not stick with CELL?Its been years and still AMD processors might well be in reality just marginally more powerful than CELL in practical terms. With CELL ps3 could mask the deficiency of RSX, and you have games like UC3/KZ3/GOW3 -best looking console games by far .

R&D cost has already been spent . SONY owns CELL lab and theres really no R&D cost if PS4 aims for a CELL cluster or super CELL 2.0 cluster with multiple chips on a single die. I am sure CELL would hit 22nm or lower by then. You heard what the devs say?? 2 gig RAM and APPLE crushes all. Like smartphones posing as competitors for handhelds, next gen will see consoles competing against who knows? IPAD?

 

[phosphor112]

It makes sense though. A lot of tech that we've seen being tested out.

Anyway, few questions for a not so savvy tech guy. Does a split pool allow simultaneous data access? For example, 2 pools = 2 reads at the same time?

Also, what does the CMOS fab thing imply?

Bump for next page. >_>...

 

[Iknos]

So again I don't understand your need for exotic hardware just for the sake of it being exotic.

Nice post and I agree to an extent.

It ultimately boils down to some questions and I'm going to bold it so its out there and clear:

What does Sony have to bring to the industry?

Why should they bother making another console?

What innovations will Sony bring to their next console?

So I'm saying their biggest strength in bringing hardware innovation is now gone by going the traditional route.

Some can "lol" and "holy shit" the questions...but that doesn't help anyone.

Sony makes great games. No doubt. But that doesn't mean we need another machine from them. They can do a Sega and make games for everyone else.

We got 2 other PCs in a box from MS and Valve. Why do we need another?

Vita made a lot of sense. It's very different than smartphones and the 3DS. It's got a lot of hardware innovation going for it. The unit OS though does very little to advance gaming though. But it doesn't need to since it has a lot going for it.

3 "PCs in a box" coming out soon. MS going to bring its innovation through the OS with new ideas just like was saw with Xbox Live Arcade and Achievements the last time around. Valve is going to bring all the good stuff they've done for PC gaming into a console box.

Sony for the most part has lagged in these areas and haven't shown the same vision in this respect. So what are they going to bring?

What's going to make the Sony box different than the MS box or Valve box? 1st party games? That's it?

 

[T-0800]

Sony have done more for the industry than MS ever will. We have paid online thanks to MS.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Sony needs to be present in some manner to make sure there is some competition. Sure they took a huge hit off marketshare but that's no reason to drop out, even if your best efforts don't sell as much as the competition.

 

[Death Dealer]

I don't.

Ahem.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=466123


So yeah, if smart phones will be capable of running Samaritan, you can bet your ass Sony's first party PS4 games are going to look much better.

 

[Tarin02543]

I just don't see Sony taking pc components for ps4. It's too easy and lacks style.

 

[Marco1]

Sony have done more for the industry than MS ever will. We have paid online thanks to MS.

Really?
Now imagine if xbox never brought live to the table and now imagine what PS3 online would be like?

 

[H_Prestige]

I just don't see Sony taking pc components for ps4. It's too easy and lacks style.

They took smartphone/tablet components for the Vita. They couldn't have made a more generic portable.

 

[Fire Walk With Me]

Sony have done more for the industry than MS ever will. We have paid online thanks to MS.

Sony has online thanks to MS.

 

[maquiladora]

Sony has online thanks to MS.

MS has online thanks to The Coca Cola Company, American Airlines annnnnd Ford.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Sony needs to stick around just to keep Microsoft in check. Nintendo is going to do whatever they want to. Sony is not a perfect company, but I really do believe that their software makes them unique and they really push the industry in that regard. Can anyone really see Microsoft or Nintendo backing projects like Journey, Flower, Little Big Planet, The Last Guardian or Heavy Rain? I certainly can't.

 

[Marco1]

Sony needs to stick around just to keep Microsoft in check. Nintendo is going to do whatever they want to. Sony is not a perfect company, but I really do believe that their software makes them unique and they really push the industry in that regard. Can anyone really see Microsoft or Nintendo backing projects like Journey, Flower, Little Big Planet, The Last Guardian or Heavy Rain? I certainly can't.

I agree, I think MS is only interested in the yearly update of it's token franchises and letting third parties take all the risks with some exclusive DLC for the limelight.
I appreciate what they are trying to do with kinect and they must have a clear vision for it as they really want it to be a part of the next-gen experience for them by including it in the box. The problem with that is, if people are not interested in kinect then they will not be interested in MS next-gen at all.

 

[Jburton]

Sony needs to stick around just to keep Microsoft in check. Nintendo is going to do whatever they want to. Sony is not a perfect company, but I really do believe that their software makes them unique and they really push the industry in that regard. Can anyone really see Microsoft or Nintendo backing projects like Journey, Flower, Little Big Planet, The Last Guardian or Heavy Rain? I certainly can't.

This!

Anyone who wants to see the end of Sony is an ignorant, fanboy fool!

 

[ThisWreckage]

I agree, I think MS is only interested in the yearly update of it's token franchises and letting third parties take all the risks with some exclusive DLC for the limelight.
I appreciate what they are trying to do with kinect and they must have a clear vision for it as they really want it to be a part of the next-gen experience for them by including it in the box. The problem with that is, if people are not interested in kinect then they will not be interested in MS next-gen at all.

I think Microsoft has gotten incredibly complacent. Their strategy of working closely with third party companies was successful, but I simply do not like what they do with their first and second party companies. If Sony creates a PS4 console that runs third party games as good (or better) than the next Microsoft console then my decision has already been made for me.

 

[Marco1]

I think Microsoft has gotten incredibly complacent. Their strategy of working closely with third party companies was successful, but I simply do not like what they do with their first and second party companies. If Sony creates a PS4 console that runs third party games as good (or better) than the next Microsoft console then my decision has already been made for me.

Definately but they appear to have invested a lot in new first party companies so it will be interesting to see what comes from them.
But as you have stated, when a company becomes complacent then that's were the opposition will strike and take their advantage.
Personally I think next-gen will be incredibly risky for all 3 companies by the looks of things.

 

[Pimpbaa]

I just don't see Sony taking pc components for ps4. It's too easy and lacks style.

Lacks style lol? Reinventing the wheel is stupid, especially when others who have much more experienced in doing it better can do it for you.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Would like to see Sony be a bit more progressive with PS4 but they lack a leader with vision now. I expect a solid piece of hardware ticking all the boxes like Vita does, but I don't think it will offer that compelling piece of freshness that could be the difference. You can kind of tell already with the way they are warding off next gen, probably being the last to make the move - when financially they should be moving the quickest. I'd daresay if they had a compelling vision they would be the first movers

 

[Averon]

I think Microsoft has gotten incredibly complacent. Their strategy of working closely with third party companies was successful, but I simply do not like what they do with their first and second party companies. If Sony creates a PS4 console that runs third party games as good (or better) than the next Microsoft console then my decision has already been made for me.

Yes. I fear MS is making the same mistake Sony made by relying too heavily on 3rd party support to define your console/brand. It hurt Sony badly this gen. It may do the same to MS. However, MS still have Xbox Live, which have proven to be incredibly popular, and if the next gen is all about services, then XBL may be the differentiator that keep MS on top.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Unless the next Xbox has some crazy exclusives that I reaaaaally want and the Halo games look interesting, I'm sticking with Sony next gen. Everyone else can fuck off.

 

[Sheikh]

Unless the next Xbox has some crazy exclusives that I reaaaaally want and the Halo games look interesting, I'm sticking with Sony next gen. Everyone else can fuck off.

same here. will buy just the next ps4 .have both ps3 and x360

but please SONY dont screw up this time.PS4 has a good chance of winning of next gen . Dont be a laggard and save some titles for launch please

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Unless the next Xbox has some crazy exclusives that I reaaaaally want and the Halo games look interesting, I'm sticking with Sony next gen. Everyone else can fuck off.

I'll go with the system that my real life friends are playing on. The vast majority of games I buy are third party anyway so it doesn't matter to me.

 

[i-Lo]

This E3, it'll be Vita and evolution of PSN related showcases for most part with a few new PS3 exclusives. However, there is a good chance that we may get a teaser taste of PS4 in some form or other. Given Sony's history, we may witness an unrealistic (put it kindly) tech demo.

 

[jeff_rigby]

This E3, it'll be Vita and evolution of PSN related showcases for most part with a few new PS3 exclusives. However, there is a good chance that we may get a teaser taste of PS4 in some form or other. Given Sony's history, we may witness an unrealistic (put it kindly) tech demo.

My guess is no PS4 demo or information and Microsoft following the same. But STREAMING/RENDERED Augmented Reality in contrast to the limited overlay Augmented reality like Start the Party will be a big new feature for all game platforms by September 2012 according to Khronos PDFs I have read.

The Sony patent for a new depth sensing camera patented at the same time as the Khronos meeting (Nov 2011) and published the same month as Khronos published the Openmax 1.2 standards (Feb 2012) that in part support such a camera might indicate it coming for the PS3. I expect it will be announced at E3 (July 2012) with demos showing it in use.

For Xbox360 which already has a depth sensing camera and will also have Streaming Augmented reality the same demos and since Khronos now has standards for the camera, developers can now port between platforms.

Wii U is Multi-view which is also partially supported in Khronos APIs and can add more features to Augmented Reality.

 

[brain_stew]

I just don't see Sony taking pc components for ps4. It's too easy and lacks style.

How do you explain the Vita, then? It uses generic off the shelf components yet is easily the best piece of hardware Sony has put out since the original Playstation.

 

[SomeDude]

I don't really care at this point. Ive heard so many different "rumors" as to what the ps4 might be.

 

[jeff_rigby]

How do you explain the Vita, then? It uses generic off the shelf components yet is easily the best piece of hardware Sony has put out since the original Playstation.

Handhelds are already optimized and have supply chains. One off game consoles with a 10 year life are totally different!

The original PSP & PS3 were before the handheld had evolved and Khronos had just been established. Sony chose a handheld OpenGL ES for the PS3 because desktop Linux and Unix OpenGL required Xwindows support and that created a larger overhead with few benefits for a game console.

Looks like some of the OpenGL ES features are being ported to OpenGL desktop and a fork has been created for Video drivers that doesn't require Xwindows.

Lots of the complaints about Sony not supporting applications for the PS3 were a wait for standards to evolve. For example OpenMax 1.1 to 1.2 was delayed from 2008 to 2011. Home didn't get TV and Stereo appliances until OpenMax 1.2 standards were in place. This supports Sony eventually porting Home to and planning multiple platforms (ecosystem) early on, it was not about copyright infringement.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

What exactly, is '3D stacking', in terms of chips, and is it possible this technology will make it into Microsoft's and Sony's next consoles?

 

[wsippel]

What exactly, is '3D stacking', in terms of chips, and is it possible this technology will make it into Microsoft's and Sony's next consoles?

It means glueing several dies on top of each other and connecting them with through silicon via interconnects. Increases speed due to short data paths and reduces power consumption. A huge step forward. It's also totally bleeding edge, which makes it very unlikely the technology will appear in any mass market product for another couple of years. It's initially targeted at servers and supercomputers.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

It means glueing several dies on top of each other and connecting them with through silicon via interconnects. Increases speed due to short data paths and reduces power consumption. A huge step forward. It's also totally bleeding edge, which makes it very unlikely the technology will appear in any mass market product for another couple of years. It's initially targeted at servers and supercomputers.

That's kinda what I thought it was, but wanted to be sure. So I guess we won't see it in consoles until the next-next generation of consoles, assuming there is one.

 

[PrinceOfApathy]

I think everyone is clutching their chests hoping that Sony does go with some radical exotic tech, but it just may not be feasible anymore, with Nintendo doing whatever it is they do in their own vacuum, and Microsoft looking to push their box into the living room for anything and everything else except games, truly its safe to say that the Nextbox will probably be the last frontier for "gaming" that Microsoft will attempt as they reach closer and closer to their "goal" whatever that may be, and once that goal is reached they can "purge" us annoying gamers from their spreadsheets. Sony is basically the last bastion left for the "hardcore" gamer before we are all frozen out and the industry comes crashing down in a nebulous Service based, hand held, Apple, Kinect and mini-games indie me too death grip.

 

[wsippel]

That's kinda what I thought it was, but wanted to be sure. So I guess we won't see it in consoles until the next-next generation of consoles, assuming there is one.

Probably. Micron for example expects to supply stacked memory for high end business applications in 2013 (low volume, high margin), but mass market devices using the technology are not expected until 2015 or 2016.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Nice post and I agree to an extent.

It ultimately boils down to some questions and I'm going to bold it so its out there and clear:

What does Sony have to bring to the industry?

PSN, their first party lineup, connectivity with their handhelds

Why should they bother making another console?

To continue the above mentioned things, because the console industry is a billion dollar industry. You make more selling consoles and accessories, ontop of games than just selling games. For the average developer. They want to control the living room, Sony is a consumer home electronics company who have been gunning for the living room since forever. They bow out of the console race then leave that center piece open for MS to take.

What innovations will Sony bring to their next console?

What innovations did Sony bring to PS3? Cell? It's barely used by third party developers, which in turn gave PS3 gamers gimped games.

So I'm saying their biggest strength in bringing hardware innovation is now gone by going the traditional route.

How is it a strength when it turned out to be their weakpoint this generation?

Vita made a lot of sense. It's very different than smartphones and the 3DS. It's got a lot of hardware innovation going for it. The unit OS though does very little to advance gaming though. But it doesn't need to since it has a lot going for it.

How? It's using off the shelf ARM parts that'll be outdated this time next year How is that hardware innovation?. I mean hell iPad3 or whatever people are calling it, is using the same Quad GPU without vRAM but more available system ram. Unless you're going to say while the hardware itself might not be exotic it's the way they're using it. I'll go ahead and say...the samething will apply to PS4.

3 "PCs in a box" coming out soon. MS going to bring its innovation through the OS with new ideas just like was saw with Xbox Live Arcade and Achievements the last time around. Valve is going to bring all the good stuff they've done for PC gaming into a console box.

Sony for the most part has lagged in these areas and haven't shown the same vision in this respect. So what are they going to bring?

What's going to make the Sony box different than the MS box or Valve box? 1st party games? That's it?

Other than Cell what did Sony bring with PS3? Because by your definition, the games, connectivity, media abilities don't count.

Here's my counter argument. How is bragging about having exotic hard to develop for hardware going to help Sony move units? WHY is having exotic hard to develop for hardware good for Sony? Why is having exotic hard to develop for hardware something Sony needs in your eyes? Why is spending money on exotic hardware R&D that ends up being even in power to off the shelf components (PS3/360 as an example) good for Sony? MS has been able to drop the price on their hardware quicker with more margin for profit than Sony. Hell right now Sony struggles to move Cell to 28nm. How is this good for Sony?

We're going to have to agree to disagree, because I believe the notion of having exotic hard to develop for hardware just for the sake of having it as a bragging point is honestly the dumbest thing Sony can do. The only thing that will accomplish is having a repeat of this generation. I'm not sure why ANY gamer would want that at all. I don't know about you but I don't like having inferior gaming experiences (I'm actually a PC gamer but whatever) just so I can brag about some OMGWTF processor.

Then in again what is the point of exotic hard to develop for hardware when it ends up being inferior to these off the shelf parts? What's the point when they cost more to manufacturer? What's the point when Sony has to spend MORE to get equal or less performance?

In short, I just don't understand your logic at all.

 

[jeff_rigby]

That's kinda what I thought it was, but wanted to be sure. So I guess we won't see it in consoles until the next-next generation of consoles, assuming there is one.

There are several version of 3D stacking with 3D silicon stacking already being used for memory and in the new Apple iPad. 3D wafer stacking is an industry wide effort to have standards (started in 2008) for interconnects (position and type) between wafers from different companies so Global Foundries for instance can make a AMD GPU wafer and send it to IBM where it can be attached to a CPU from IBM in a 3D stack which might also include memory wafers and more. IBM has already done the research and is going on-line with this in 2013. The rumored Xbox Oban might be a 3D stack design or it could just be 2.5D but it's rumored to have the AMD created GPU sent to IBM to combine with a CPU.

3D stacking is coming to next generation but 3D wafer stacking might not be. Xbox for instance might be 3D stacked but Sony coming later 3D wafer stacked. The difference is standards and economics. 3D wafer stacking is supposed to be much more economical than one off 3D stacking. Standards are needed within 6 months and "many feel we are 1 year behind". "Standards for 3-D chip stacks need to be in place within six months to stay ahead of chips rolling out in 2013, said a Qualcomm executive driving some of the efforts".

Hell right now Sony struggles to move Cell to 28nm.

A Sony employee stated that they were not going to support the next die size reduction for the Cell from PS3 slim's 45nm to 32nm. The Reasoning for this is I think economics. They can produce the 45nm cell and RSX themselves but to produce a 32nm or 28 nm they would have to retool or have it produced by some other company's foundry. The industry is NOW implementing multiple processes to make ICs more efficient like 3D stacking for memory and GPUs as well as 3D wafer stacking (production efficiency) in addition to moving to sub 32nm (28nm and 22nm). A wait and we might see a PS3 slimmer slim in 2013 that sells for sub $200. Imagine a 1 chip PS3 @ $99.

 

[H_Prestige]

PSN, their first party lineup, connectivity with their handhelds



To continue the above mentioned things, because the console industry is a billion dollar industry. You make more selling consoles and accessories, ontop of games than just selling games. For the average developer. They want to control the living room, Sony is a consumer home electronics company who have been gunning for the living room since forever. They bow out of the console race then leave that center piece open for MS to take.



What innovations did Sony bring to PS3? Cell? It's barely used by third party developers, which in turn gave PS3 gamers gimped games.



How is it a strength when it turned out to be their weakpoint this generation?



How? It's using off the shelf ARM parts that'll be outdated this time next year How is that hardware innovation?. I mean hell iPad3 or whatever people are calling it, is using the same Quad GPU without vRAM but more available system ram. Unless you're going to say while the hardware itself might not be exotic it's the way they're using it. I'll go ahead and say...the samething will apply to PS4.



Other than Cell what did Sony bring with PS3? Because by your definition, the games, connectivity, media abilities don't count.

Here's my counter argument. How is bragging about having exotic hard to develop for hardware going to help Sony move units? WHY is having exotic hard to develop for hardware good for Sony? Why is having exotic hard to develop for hardware something Sony needs in your eyes? Why is spending money on exotic hardware R&D that ends up being even in power to off the shelf components (PS3/360 as an example) good for Sony? MS has been able to drop the price on their hardware quicker with more margin for profit than Sony. Hell right now Sony struggles to move Cell to 28nm. How is this good for Sony?

We're going to have to agree to disagree, because I believe the notion of having exotic hard to develop for hardware just for the sake of having it as a bragging point is honestly the dumbest thing Sony can do. The only thing that will accomplish is having a repeat of this generation. I'm not sure why ANY gamer would want that at all. I don't know about you but I don't like having inferior gaming experiences (I'm actually a PC gamer but whatever) just so I can brag about some OMGWTF processor.

Then in again what is the point of exotic hard to develop for hardware when it ends up being inferior to these off the shelf parts? What's the point when they cost more to manufacturer? What's the point when Sony has to spend MORE to get equal or less performance?

In short, I just don't understand your logic at all.

It's Iknos. He just wants a reason to say Sony should leave the business. Either that or he is extremely ignorant.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Probably. Micron for example expects to supply stacked memory for high end business applications in 2013 (low volume, high margin), but mass market devices using the technology are not expected until 2015 or 2016.

I haven't read anywhere about any plans other than Sample quantities in early 2013 with production level quantities late 2013. The memory controller included as part of the logic layer eliminates it as a candidate for current high end designs.....I.E. it was not designed for the market that you state it's targeted at by Micron. Also and the big point here is the 2013 run is 2 gig and 4 gig 3D stacked memory ONLY. Tell me what high end application is going to use such a small amount of memory. The memory controller included in the 4 gig 3D stack precludes using multiple memory chips so if anything it looks like it's designed for the SMALL end not upper end.

I think 3D stacked memory in 2013 taking the place of DDR5 or even XDR2 is a huge design plus for a game console. The 2013 Fusion APU design has a common memory pool but not a memory controller. Most PC CPU chipsets include the memory controller, that it doesn't and 3D stacked memory with memory controller is going to be available in 2013 has me thinking the Micron 3D stacked memory will be used by that chipset. 4 gig could be for Xbox and 2 Gig for Sony, this could change but the 2gig version is probably going to be much cheaper as somewhat defective 4 gig versions can be used as 2 gig.

Even if the first run of 3D stacked memory is more expensive, over time it should be far less expensive than DDR5 or XDR2 as it uses DDR3 but is slightly faster than XDR2 and reduces Motherboard complexity, eliminates motherboard wires between multiple memory chips which can eliminate a need for a differential buss (2 wires for each data line) needed by XDR2.

Can you cite or confirm a source?

 

[nelsonroyale]

Really?
Now imagine if xbox never brought live to the table and now imagine what PS3 online would be like?

If they never bought live to the table we never would have had Windows Live...