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Did Palpatine really lose against Mace Windu?
- Thread starter Chariot
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Gabriel_Logan
Member
But Anakin's Midi-chlorian count was even more powerful than Yoda's.
Sheev was stronger in the force, but I think he underestimated Mace's swordsmanship (he was suppose to be the best in that class among the Jedi IIRC). The point was to turn Darth Doofus on his side, but I think there was a point where he could have legit been wrecked by Mace due to that underestimation.
Granted, all of this was so poorly handled by Lucas who the hell really knows.
Granted, all of this was so poorly handled by Lucas who the hell really knows.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Mace was pretty powerful, he would have killed Sidious if not for Anakin.
IIRC, Mace is one of a handful of Jedi who can use the dark side of the force while retaining his moral compass. Being around a beacon of the dark side like Sidious may have made him stronger.
IIRC, Mace is one of a handful of Jedi who can use the dark side of the force while retaining his moral compass. Being around a beacon of the dark side like Sidious may have made him stronger.
He was getting stronger (look at how he got defeated by Dooku in the second movie and lost a limb but in the third movie soundly beats him) but he wasn't powerful enough to go against Yoda or Mace. It's why Palpatine did want him, Anakin was suppose to be the next big thing.
Him getting BBQ'ed and losing his limbs kinda put an end to that and he more or less became Palpatines attack dog.
Anakin ended up losing a lot of his potential, Lucas even stated as much as in the official Star Wars magazine.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
If Palpatine could just kill all the Jedi through brute force, he would have done it.
Banjotanooki
Member
As a kid seeing this, I thought this was one of the best scenes in ROTS what with Palpatine finally revealing himself and giving Vader his name. I totally thought he lost to Windu on purpose.
Nope, he isn't.
He could have been but his own foolish pride and arrogance cost him that chance.
EvilKatarn
Member
I watched all the Redlettermedia Star Wars prequel reviews and I completely hate these movies now. Like, I can't even muster up the will to write anything about that fight because Lucas had to be on some heavy shit while making these movies and probably didn't give a fuck.
I don't think that was the original idea. He was supposed to wither slowly across the films until in ROTJ he looks like a corpse. For AOTC they aged McDiarmid with makeup and prosthetics around the eyes, but in his wisdom George thought it would be better to prey on people's nostalgia and make him look like the ROTJ Emperor in ROTS, despite it making no sense at all.
I believe Lucas' producer confirmed the 'true appearance revealed' angle rather than him being scarred. Which is still vey stupid. What you see on screen makes him look like he's being scarred.
Blargonaut
Banned
Palpatine's Force Lightning didn't do shit to Mace Windu, it just nicked him, in reality he furiously shanked Sheev to death against the wall of that chamber that night, shanked that shit into Pulpatine.
Anakin was a weak-minded fictional shit and Mace Windu knew his shit, Mace Windu Force-projected pulpy Palpatine teen fiction onto Annie's mental pornography, made him think he amputated Mace Windu's arm when in reality Annie gave Mace Windu a fine-ass straight-laser shave while Mace Windu was reclining on top of his latest peanut-brittle shank puppet.
Then Mace Windu Force-revived Sheev because tickles are his aftershave then threw his own ass off that ledge because he was tired of Anakin's shit and faked his own death for the last Sith aftershave in the galaxy. He's lived in Coruscant's urban underworld ever since as a professional lawnmower-for-hire known on the tongues of aliens as Shaft.
Anakin was a weak-minded fictional shit and Mace Windu knew his shit, Mace Windu Force-projected pulpy Palpatine teen fiction onto Annie's mental pornography, made him think he amputated Mace Windu's arm when in reality Annie gave Mace Windu a fine-ass straight-laser shave while Mace Windu was reclining on top of his latest peanut-brittle shank puppet.
Then Mace Windu Force-revived Sheev because tickles are his aftershave then threw his own ass off that ledge because he was tired of Anakin's shit and faked his own death for the last Sith aftershave in the galaxy. He's lived in Coruscant's urban underworld ever since as a professional lawnmower-for-hire known on the tongues of aliens as Shaft.
cj_iwakura
Member
The Jedi accompanying Windu are useless. They stand there for like five seconds while Palpatine poses then kills the first one. The other two go down fair, but they should have had him dead-to-rights at first.
Still better than how the novel did it, blech. He makes a fake recording of him begging for his life which he plays for the senate later.
Personally I think Windu did have the advantage, then Palpatine played it in his favor. Palpatine's a schemer, not a fighter. Yoda's not even really much of a duelist, he's just stronger than Dooku.
But not Palpatine.
Still better than how the novel did it, blech. He makes a fake recording of him begging for his life which he plays for the senate later.
Personally I think Windu did have the advantage, then Palpatine played it in his favor. Palpatine's a schemer, not a fighter. Yoda's not even really much of a duelist, he's just stronger than Dooku.
But not Palpatine.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Mace Windu was winning fair and square. It's possible that Palpatine could have still turned the tables had Anakin not shown up, but he wasn't faking it. Windu was second to Yoda in force strength, but he's one of the best lightsaber fighters in history. He really could have won.
DarkJediKnight
Member
Only Yoda, Dooku and Mace during this time had good knowledge of the dark side. Dooku decided he could become more powerful by embracing the dark side. Mace did not.
Whether planned or not, Palpatine did not expect Mace to be that strong with the saber. Palpatine is frikken amazing with a blade and he had Mace on the fences until they had their standstill clash. Mace is not just younger but physically stronger.
Mace adapted better to strikes and allowed Palpatine to go "ape shit" with arrogance as all Sith do, and bid his moment to disarm him.
Lucas' garbage dialogue here doesn't work. But the scarring on the face was clearly a self-sacrifice - playing the old and weak card. Then "unlimited power" banter afterwards reveal that Palpatine had a lot left in the tank.
I don't think Mace stood a chance, no matter how you cut it.
The whole point of this was to lure Anakin in, and when Palpatine sensed Anakin was close, he lost his saber in the most amateurish way possible.
I thought Lucas did say at one point that he was scarred from the fight?
Lucas says a lot of things.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Why?
Considering how he manhandled Maul and Savage in TCW and beats Yoda at the end of RotS, I'd say he threw it on purpose knowing that Anakin would come. He knows the boy's psychology too well since he spent over a decade grooming him for the role of a Sith lord.
I thought it was very odd back in 2005 when I first saw Sidious using a lightsaber but after TCW I'm fine with it just because that one fight with Maul and Savage was so good that I'd rather have him use one (or two) than not.
I thought it was very odd back in 2005 when I first saw Sidious using a lightsaber but after TCW I'm fine with it just because that one fight with Maul and Savage was so good that I'd rather have him use one (or two) than not.
According to clone wars mace was strongest fighter among all Jedi. So in my mind yes he defeated palpatine events tough it was implied that he was just playing.
It was just a shity scene just like in sequels obi van says strike me down and I'll become stronger. Well even its so at least fight Vader may be you will defeat him or at least buy some more time for anakin to run away.
Still can't believe how how weak and stupid Jedi were.
It was just a shity scene just like in sequels obi van says strike me down and I'll become stronger. Well even its so at least fight Vader may be you will defeat him or at least buy some more time for anakin to run away.
Still can't believe how how weak and stupid Jedi were.
exmachina64
Banned
That sound Palpatine makes at the beginning of the fight is supposed to be a force scream like the dark side power you can use in the KoToR series. Theoretically, they're too disoriented to fight back.
That's not to say that I think that's a valid excuse for the poor quality of the fight or the prequel trilogy in general.
All of you saying Sheev shouldn't use a saber are cray.
It made this amazing scene possible.(CLONE WARS Spoilers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
It made this amazing scene possible.(CLONE WARS Spoilers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
QuicheFontaine
Member
If he was throwing the fight, why did he melt his own face?
My interpretation from the movie, disregargind word of Lucas, Producers, script or novelization, is that up until Anakin's arrival, Mace was absolutely besting Palpatine in the duel. There is no way Sheev could have perfectly timed his "loss" with Anakin's arrival.
By the time Anakin arrived, Mace had already disarmed Sheev and force lightining was absolutely useless, no matter how much fuel Palpatine still had in him tank, Mace would just redirected using his saber.
I prefer this way. I like to think that Darth Sidous, despite all his power and knowledge, wasn't an absolutely unstoppable fighter and a top tier Jedi Master could beat him fair and square, and got away with it because of luck and cunning. Yoda pretty much lost his duel because Sidious, after the force clash. managed to grab a senate platform while he did not and fell.
By the time Anakin arrived, Mace had already disarmed Sheev and force lightining was absolutely useless, no matter how much fuel Palpatine still had in him tank, Mace would just redirected using his saber.
I prefer this way. I like to think that Darth Sidous, despite all his power and knowledge, wasn't an absolutely unstoppable fighter and a top tier Jedi Master could beat him fair and square, and got away with it because of luck and cunning. Yoda pretty much lost his duel because Sidious, after the force clash. managed to grab a senate platform while he did not and fell.
Lucas doesn't have a say in it anymore. Disney can make up whatever the hell they want and Lucas can't do a thing to stop them.
Well apparently he didn't melt his face. He just let his 'mask' slip.
Why would the lightning make his fingernails grow an inch?
QuicheFontaine
Member
I don't know, but it looked like the lightning bounced back off Windu's light saber and hit him in the face. I don't know why he didn't just stop.
Oh, that is actually an interesting explanation! I always thought that the scream was kinda weird, but being a Forcescream changes something.
My guess whould be that this was the only thing that kept Mace from killing him. Mace could defeflect the lightning, but if he would take away the sword, he would've been maybe grilled too. So it seemed to be a stillstand with Mace getting the way better end.
I am starting to understand the fury of Star Wars fans.
cj_iwakura
Member
Of course, if Windu had just trusted Anakin, Palpatine probably would've died to all five of them. That sowed the seeds of his death.
Indrid Cold1
Member
Loving everyone's use of "Sheev" ha. WTF. Sheev!
SpiralZilla
Member
I really liked that movie.
PdotMichael
Banned
My favorite part of that fight:
"Just walk forward and wildly swing your lightsaber around, Sam. We'll be adding the CGI Palpatine in post."
I miss the classy lightsaber fights of the first movies.
But I guess like for most of the parts of the new movies it was all about to show how great they are at doing CG.
Ether_Snake
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So weird, I had a dream last night that I was watching Ep. VII, and there was a short scene with Luke and Han at the beginning, then they never showed up again and everyone was just talking endlessly in boring scenes with no action at all. I kept thinking "Why couldn't Abrams realize this sucks??".
I take it as evidence that he never appeared again. Just imagine him surviving and just going "yeah, no, fuck that, I am janitor now."
Is the Clone Wars series still canon? They brought Darth Maul back as half cyborg. In comparison it should be easy for Mace to survive.
aaaand I'm out. That's just too much deep lore.
Embrace the Sheev. It's rapidly become much more popular to say Sheev than Palpatine since it's more convenient and fun.
Sheev and Snoke 4lyfe.
That's actually why they can do all that lightsaber stuff. They augment their abilities with the force to make up for being so old.
I assumed it was both. The lightning destroyed his disguise and scarred his face.
Gnome Scat
Member
Yep the Official TV/movie Canon goes like this
The Phantom Menace>Attack of the Clones>The Clone Wars>Revenge of the Sith>REBELS>A New Hope>The Empire Strikes Back>Return of the Jedi>The Force Awakens>...
You can add official comics and books that are NOT part of the "Legends" brand, and also every single videogame is non canon now, yes even your favorite one.
It was pretty crap that they went down like red shirts.
PdotMichael
Banned
The Jedi council never made sense, such a undemocratic bunch of people. Especially in the context of muh democracy and freedom in the second and third movie.
But I guess Lucas used Iran as role model for the worldbuilding.
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