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Did Witcher 3 (temporarily) kill the western RPG?
- Thread starter ReadingRambo
- Start date
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Would anyone be surprised if most AAA WRPG start taking cues from Witcher 3?
We can only hope
I wouldn't say it killed "the western RPG" but I do think that the overwhelming quality and craftsmanship (and long sales legs) behind games like The Witcher III and Grand Theft Auto V have forced some re-evaluation of the yearly franchise / closely spaced series model.
I don't think that the timing of Assassin's Creed's newfound slower release schedule is a coincidence. They realize they're going to be a lot better off trying to make something that actually reflects them working at absolute capacity, rather than just another slight iteration on their existing framework.
Mass Effect Andromeda looks like it's trying to follow also - a long break between series entries and a lot of assurances that the game won't just be filler quests. We'll see, but I do think it's nice that there is a backlash against "CONTENT!" just for the sake of content.
All in all, I think W3 has sent a pretty positive message to the industry: quality still sells. Put in that extra effort and people notice, whether they realize it or not while they play.
I don't think that the timing of Assassin's Creed's newfound slower release schedule is a coincidence. They realize they're going to be a lot better off trying to make something that actually reflects them working at absolute capacity, rather than just another slight iteration on their existing framework.
Mass Effect Andromeda looks like it's trying to follow also - a long break between series entries and a lot of assurances that the game won't just be filler quests. We'll see, but I do think it's nice that there is a backlash against "CONTENT!" just for the sake of content.
All in all, I think W3 has sent a pretty positive message to the industry: quality still sells. Put in that extra effort and people notice, whether they realize it or not while they play.
No, I think feature bloat slowed the genre down considerably.
These days, almost every major AAA release is an RPG in some way or another. Action games, shooters, open-world games, etc. They all so closely resemble RPGs in terms of skill trees, inventory management, and quest systems that RPGs now are nearly a meaningless category. In order for the genre to stand out from other games now they have to go so far in terms of content and systems that it's become impossible for all but a very few developers to create fully featured RPGs.
The relative lack of RPGs isn't the fault of Witcher 3. It's the fault of series like Assassin's Creed and Grand Theft Auto and Batman and Destiny.
These days, almost every major AAA release is an RPG in some way or another. Action games, shooters, open-world games, etc. They all so closely resemble RPGs in terms of skill trees, inventory management, and quest systems that RPGs now are nearly a meaningless category. In order for the genre to stand out from other games now they have to go so far in terms of content and systems that it's become impossible for all but a very few developers to create fully featured RPGs.
The relative lack of RPGs isn't the fault of Witcher 3. It's the fault of series like Assassin's Creed and Grand Theft Auto and Batman and Destiny.
I don't even think the people making Zelda know what The Witcher 3 is. Nintendo almost takes pride in not giving a shit about other games.
That said, looking at BOTW's gameplay and a few other things Nintendo has been doing, I think it is starting to pay a bit more attention to outside games, even western games. It's probably a combination of market pressures and the old guard starting to hand things over to the younger generation who maybe are more receptive to outside games. I get the sense Miyamoto in particular plays almost no games other than the ones he works on.
Woo-Fu
Banned
The western RPG has been mostly dead for years now. Kickstarter is keeping the sub-genre on life support.
Not sure what an action-RPG like Witcher 3 has to do with that, though. What killed the western RPG was the rise of the console which is a better fit for ARPG/JRPG. That means more return from putting a dev team on an action RPG than on a western(usually CRPG) RPG. If anything, Witcher 3 is a symptom, not the cause.
Not sure what an action-RPG like Witcher 3 has to do with that, though. What killed the western RPG was the rise of the console which is a better fit for ARPG/JRPG. That means more return from putting a dev team on an action RPG than on a western(usually CRPG) RPG. If anything, Witcher 3 is a symptom, not the cause.
Yeah as people have said, I think it's more to do with what's coming out and when. Bioware are about to release the next Mass Effect game, which will be huge so there's no point showing off anything Dragon Age related. I doubt we'll see Dragon Age again until E3 2018, for a 2019 release.
Bethesda aren't showing anything of Elder Scrolls VI because :
a) They've just released Fallout 4.
b) They've said they prefer to show stuff when it's nearly done so don't expect TES VI till E3 in the year it comes out.
c) It takes time to add all the janky animations, voice acting from the same 4 people and dreadful bugs to that ancient piece of shit they call a game engine.
Bethesda aren't showing anything of Elder Scrolls VI because :
a) They've just released Fallout 4.
b) They've said they prefer to show stuff when it's nearly done so don't expect TES VI till E3 in the year it comes out.
c) It takes time to add all the janky animations, voice acting from the same 4 people and dreadful bugs to that ancient piece of shit they call a game engine.
CouchMaster
Member
The only thing that can kill a sub-genre is a crappy game (or string of crappy games) that came out last, so no.
TatteredHat
Member
W3 might not be perfect but it sure as hell is a lot better than any of it's competitors, it has killed my personal desire to play other western RPG for now.
Easton Dark
Member
Your premise only works if there were RPGs slated to be released soon after Witcher 3 that got massively delayed "for reasons". Otherwise, the development cycles for RPGs are the same as they ever were.
Developers like Bethesda and Bioware don't need to change their games to be more like Witcher 3, because their games still sell more.
Developers like Bethesda and Bioware don't need to change their games to be more like Witcher 3, because their games still sell more.
No. How the hell do you even think that? Skyrim just got rereleased, Mass Effect is coming out soon, Pillars 2 just got crowdfunded. There's a goddamn thread on Pillars stickied at the top of the page!
Witcher didn't shame other developers into hiding, maybe you really liked it but it really wasn't anywhere near special enough to do that.
Witcher didn't shame other developers into hiding, maybe you really liked it but it really wasn't anywhere near special enough to do that.
What? Skyrim came out 2011, 4 years before Witcher 3.
Rereleased.
Bioware isn't talking about Dragon Age because Dragon Age, as of January, is on hold. Mike Laidlaw said as much on Twitter, and I've heard it elsewhere too. Plus they're working on something new.
Other people have already mentioned things like Torment and Pillars. No Truce for the Furies is soon. CRPGs, at least, are doing quite well.
It is, though. Ubi wants to alternate AC with Watch Dogs and they saw the sales for Unity and Syndicate (iirc Unity's DLC ended up getting cut majorly and Dead Kings became free), and realized the game needed some time to refresh.
Other people have already mentioned things like Torment and Pillars. No Truce for the Furies is soon. CRPGs, at least, are doing quite well.
It is, though. Ubi wants to alternate AC with Watch Dogs and they saw the sales for Unity and Syndicate (iirc Unity's DLC ended up getting cut majorly and Dead Kings became free), and realized the game needed some time to refresh.
zkorejo
Member
While I agree that TW3 has raised the bar much higher for its competitors in the genre, I think what's taking other devs longer is the fact that developing for current gen consoles takes far more time and effort as compared to last generations.
What TW3 did was, take notes from the leading games and improved on them in every aspect. If Bethesda and Bioware want to make games as good as Tw3, they need to do the same. Esp. Bethesda, FO4 is a good example that the same old formula won't work anymore.
What TW3 did was, take notes from the leading games and improved on them in every aspect. If Bethesda and Bioware want to make games as good as Tw3, they need to do the same. Esp. Bethesda, FO4 is a good example that the same old formula won't work anymore.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Wait, what exactly do you mean with "on hold"?
As of January, nobody at Bioware was working on a Dragon Age game. This may change now that Andromeda is done. Maybe the DA team is working on this new IP? I don't know a lot about Bioware's organizational structure or anything. Just know that DA wasn't in development last month, a lot of folks were working their butts off on Andromeda, and Bioware's got a new IP in the works (and it ISN'T that Shadow Whatevers thing).
Fallout-NL
Member
Weird. Maybe it's because I'm much more of a Dark Souls person, but even after about 8 hours, TW3 still isn't grabbing me, at all. I find it tolerable at best. The combat, the loot, even the writing, I just don't give a damn about any of it. It does look spectacular, but even that doesn't really inspire in me the desire to explore much of it.
Anyone else feel this way? Does it get better?
Anyone else feel this way? Does it get better?
SuperEpicMan
Banned
I think it is a case of increasing development times, due to bigger and more complex open worlds.
Also, speaking of Bethesda, I suspect we might see a new Fallout game this year, followed by a new Elder Scrolls in 2019.
Basically:
Skyrim (2011) Bethesda Developed
Fallout 4 (2015) Bethesda Developed
Fallout (2017) Not developed by Bethesda, similar to New Vegas scenario.
Elder Scrolls 6 (2019) Bethesda Developed
Also, speaking of Bethesda, I suspect we might see a new Fallout game this year, followed by a new Elder Scrolls in 2019.
Basically:
Skyrim (2011) Bethesda Developed
Fallout 4 (2015) Bethesda Developed
Fallout (2017) Not developed by Bethesda, similar to New Vegas scenario.
Elder Scrolls 6 (2019) Bethesda Developed
martino
Member
i'm not sure open world is the best way to do rpg...
it is for the witcher because the lore is tailored for it (a guy with background wandering from town to town, killing monster) and because part of the story they used in the third game is also tailored for it (look for ciri or info on her everywhere you can)
to me this a big reason why it works so well in this game (+ you make choices with real impact on the outcome of things)
bioware seems to have nailled good context for andromeda...but that remain to be seen.
it is for the witcher because the lore is tailored for it (a guy with background wandering from town to town, killing monster) and because part of the story they used in the third game is also tailored for it (look for ciri or info on her everywhere you can)
to me this a big reason why it works so well in this game (+ you make choices with real impact on the outcome of things)
bioware seems to have nailled good context for andromeda...but that remain to be seen.
FelineRampage
Neo Member
The Witcher 3 has set the bar so high. It's the one to aspire to.
Some have tried and failed. Others are close.
Still the closest to it is Skyrim and that is about 7 years old. For so long this was the bar.
Some have tried and failed. Others are close.
Still the closest to it is Skyrim and that is about 7 years old. For so long this was the bar.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Ah ok that's a different thing. I don't expect a new Dragon Age anytime soon but not being worked on right now is different to being put on hold. IIRC the writing staff is somewhat separate between Mass Effect and Dragon Age.
Fbh
Gold Member
Not really.
What big western RPG devs do we have?
Bioware? Releasing Mass Effect soon. Not sure why they would want to draw attention away from that by announcing a new Dragon Age.
Bethesda? Released Fallout 4 in late 2015. Based on their track record it's still going to be a while until we get a new elder scrolls
Obsidian? Just launched a successfull Kickstarter for their next game.
And now we also have devs like Guerilla trying their hand at an RPG.
Witcher 3 set a bar for sure, at least in some aspects like Sidequests. And I hope that other devs aspire to reach or surpass that bar. But I'm not seeing it have an effect on the release rate of big or small RPG's
What big western RPG devs do we have?
Bioware? Releasing Mass Effect soon. Not sure why they would want to draw attention away from that by announcing a new Dragon Age.
Bethesda? Released Fallout 4 in late 2015. Based on their track record it's still going to be a while until we get a new elder scrolls
Obsidian? Just launched a successfull Kickstarter for their next game.
And now we also have devs like Guerilla trying their hand at an RPG.
Witcher 3 set a bar for sure, at least in some aspects like Sidequests. And I hope that other devs aspire to reach or surpass that bar. But I'm not seeing it have an effect on the release rate of big or small RPG's
EliRosenau
Banned
I'm not exactly the Dark Souls-type. Don't like it. More so; hate it. Feels convoluted for the sake of it.
I like open world, I do but Witcher 3 to me is just a clusterfuck of blips on the radar going from one interest-point to the other. It also doesn't help that Geralt is so. fucking. boring. He's a white haired edgy Aragorn.
Some games are just not for you (or me) and that's ok. I think you just should be grateful that you have games you do like. I'd rather enjoy one good game than play 4 that I don't really like.
nelsonroyale
Member
I don't think so, but I do think that W3 has raised the bar so high, it should make many other devs rethink the way they do things. The difference in overall quality between say Dragon Age Inquisition and Witcher 3 is pretty great.
I hope Bioware raised their game with Mass Effect. The last couple dropped the ball in my opinion.
I hope Bioware raised their game with Mass Effect. The last couple dropped the ball in my opinion.
Bioware has apparently moved to the Ubi model where all the studios are working on whatever the current title in production is.
The title after Mass Effect Andromeda is the new IP, so it's not shocking that a DA4 isn't being worked on, as they're all working on that.
Given that it was the most successful launch in Bioware history and apparently did well enough to justify a GOTY edition (which Dragon Age 2 famously wasn't able to pull off), I'd be shocked if there wasn't a new DA at some point.
No...if anything the Witcher 3 was a reminder that the genre is more than alive, and 2017 is littered with releases.
None of the other big western RPG makes are stalling development, as we'll be getting another Mass Effect from Bioware this year, and likely see something else from them in 2018 as they trade off franchises (or in this case their new IP). Fallout 4 sold more than anything Bethesda made previous, so like always they can afford to take their sweet time on their next release.
This May we're seeing the release of Prey, basically Arkane's take on action/rpg (immersive sim) System Shock 2. The sci-fi Souls game 'The Surge' from the Lord's of the Fallen dev is also due in May. Dotnod's supernatural action/RPG Vampyr is set for Q4 2017. You've got the high fidelity no-fantasy medieval open world action/RPG Kingdom Come: Deliverance set for release sometime this year too.
Plenty of smaller WRPGs are also coming this year like Divinity: Original Sin 2, Torment: Tides of Numenara, Pillars of Eternity 2, The Bard's Tale IV, Eitr, Pyre & No Truce with the Furies.
None of the other big western RPG makes are stalling development, as we'll be getting another Mass Effect from Bioware this year, and likely see something else from them in 2018 as they trade off franchises (or in this case their new IP). Fallout 4 sold more than anything Bethesda made previous, so like always they can afford to take their sweet time on their next release.
This May we're seeing the release of Prey, basically Arkane's take on action/rpg (immersive sim) System Shock 2. The sci-fi Souls game 'The Surge' from the Lord's of the Fallen dev is also due in May. Dotnod's supernatural action/RPG Vampyr is set for Q4 2017. You've got the high fidelity no-fantasy medieval open world action/RPG Kingdom Come: Deliverance set for release sometime this year too.
Plenty of smaller WRPGs are also coming this year like Divinity: Original Sin 2, Torment: Tides of Numenara, Pillars of Eternity 2, The Bard's Tale IV, Eitr, Pyre & No Truce with the Furies.
I'll need a source on that, since I've been looking and I can't find anything of the sort. You'd think it'd be a news story. Considering how they've been teasing the next game with Trespasser and there's a new post-DA:I comic releasing soon, it would be an odd move.
So I just started up Inquisition for the first time and am also trying out The Division. I think a major difference between Witcher 3 and other recent AAA RPGs from big western publishers is that the latter have really been pushing numbers and overall "gameyness."
Inquisition basically feels like "Resource Gathering: The Game" so far. Mass Effect 3 also really centered around building up a statistic, of which BioWare positioned multiplayer as a key component. Everything's about getting points and other "stuff" in these games. The quests are basically fetch quests. You can tell BioWare was thinking about "player retention" when designing its last couple games. It probably looked at mobile games, free-to-play games, and MMOs for inspiration. You can see this on what we've seen so far of Andromeda too. BioWare says it's about exploration but has also mentioned setting up settlements or whatever in order to unlock things and... get points. Compare that to BioWare's previous games which were almost all about stories and building a party. The storytelling is still a major part of BioWare's games because the company realizes that's one of its main appeals, but not to the extent of how central storytelling is to The Witcher.
Witcher 3 has as many numbers flying around as any other RPG, but the whole main quest isn't built around some statistic hanging over your head. The main appeal of the game is exploring the world and investigating all the stories in it. Almost all the quests are just about furthering a plot. Getting that badass new sword that's 15 points stronger than the last one is a thing that's there, but it's not the main thing driving you through the game. Even the quests that are about getting better gear try to have a storyline attached that's at least slightly interesting, the biggest example being that elf swordsmith in Novigrad. Eventually it wasn't even just about the swords -- I kinda liked that guy by the end of his questline. It's like a balance I guess. CDPR isn't quite as much concerned with making an addictive game. We'll see how that changes with Andromeda and Cyberpunk though. BioWare has paid some lip service to making Andromeda quests "more meaningful." On the flip side Cyberpunk is based on a tabletop game, so it's going to be inherently a much more "gamey" experience at its core.
Compare Fallout 4 with New Vegas, 3, and Skyrim. Fallout 3 is the earliest Bethesda game I've played but I can see kind of a transition where that was a more story-focused thing, and of course New Vegas was all about story, but Skyrim started to be a bit more about just having a shitload of waypoint markers to investigate. Now, Fallout 4 to me really feels like a Diablo-style loot RPG but singleplayer. The main appeal of that game has been clearing out what are basically dungeons and getting parts to improve my weapons or improve my town.
Basically, Witcher 3 was the first big-budget western RPG in a while that was more concerned with interesting characters and an interesting world than trying to get you to fill up a bunch of bars. It's possible to do both I guess, but Witcher 3 let the numbers and stats kinda drift into the background a bit. I'm not sure the big western publishers are willing to let go of that.
Inquisition basically feels like "Resource Gathering: The Game" so far. Mass Effect 3 also really centered around building up a statistic, of which BioWare positioned multiplayer as a key component. Everything's about getting points and other "stuff" in these games. The quests are basically fetch quests. You can tell BioWare was thinking about "player retention" when designing its last couple games. It probably looked at mobile games, free-to-play games, and MMOs for inspiration. You can see this on what we've seen so far of Andromeda too. BioWare says it's about exploration but has also mentioned setting up settlements or whatever in order to unlock things and... get points. Compare that to BioWare's previous games which were almost all about stories and building a party. The storytelling is still a major part of BioWare's games because the company realizes that's one of its main appeals, but not to the extent of how central storytelling is to The Witcher.
Witcher 3 has as many numbers flying around as any other RPG, but the whole main quest isn't built around some statistic hanging over your head. The main appeal of the game is exploring the world and investigating all the stories in it. Almost all the quests are just about furthering a plot. Getting that badass new sword that's 15 points stronger than the last one is a thing that's there, but it's not the main thing driving you through the game. Even the quests that are about getting better gear try to have a storyline attached that's at least slightly interesting, the biggest example being that elf swordsmith in Novigrad. Eventually it wasn't even just about the swords -- I kinda liked that guy by the end of his questline. It's like a balance I guess. CDPR isn't quite as much concerned with making an addictive game. We'll see how that changes with Andromeda and Cyberpunk though. BioWare has paid some lip service to making Andromeda quests "more meaningful." On the flip side Cyberpunk is based on a tabletop game, so it's going to be inherently a much more "gamey" experience at its core.
Compare Fallout 4 with New Vegas, 3, and Skyrim. Fallout 3 is the earliest Bethesda game I've played but I can see kind of a transition where that was a more story-focused thing, and of course New Vegas was all about story, but Skyrim started to be a bit more about just having a shitload of waypoint markers to investigate. Now, Fallout 4 to me really feels like a Diablo-style loot RPG but singleplayer. The main appeal of that game has been clearing out what are basically dungeons and getting parts to improve my weapons or improve my town.
Basically, Witcher 3 was the first big-budget western RPG in a while that was more concerned with interesting characters and an interesting world than trying to get you to fill up a bunch of bars. It's possible to do both I guess, but Witcher 3 let the numbers and stats kinda drift into the background a bit. I'm not sure the big western publishers are willing to let go of that.
But TW3 has good and fitting combat?
Great post.
Turin Turambar
Member
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Great post.
One thing though.. with the comparison between Skyrim, Fallout 3, New Vegas, and Fallout 4 are you trying to illustrate how Bethesda shifted focus from story based games to bar fillers right? If so then New Vegas doesnt fit because that wasnt developed by Bethesda.
FarFromAnyGame
Banned
I don't know why all the hate on TW3 combat. It's fine. I like it.
Another good post.
Shake Appeal
Member
Eh, I strongly disagree with this. 2D isometric games have agedand will continue to agefar better than the janky 3D "blockbusters" we have today.
Yeah, I agree. The games that have really aged badly are uncanny valley 3D games like NWN2. BG2 and other Infinity Engine games actually play pretty well, if you have either the EE or a modded base game. To the extent that anything's archaic about it, it's whatever edition of the D&D ruleset the game uses.
Great post.
I thought W3 is over 13M? That would be over Fallout wouldn't it?