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[dcmk7]

Not really.

Developers like Techland and 343 have gone back and added 60 FPS and 120 FPS modesto their games after not having those at launch. The tiny box has more oomph than some here would like us to believe.

Many occasions on this forum developers are being called out whenever the Series S doesn't have parity. It's ignorance at its finest.

But you're right occasionally developers spend time post launch to implement something that the console should have been designed to do in the first place (according Jason R at least), that's hardly an endorsement or an encouraging sign going forward when titles get more and more ambitious

 

[adamsapple]

Many occasions on this forum developers are being called out whenever the Series S doesn't have parity. It's ignorance at its finest.

But you're right occasionally developers spend time post launch to implement something that the console should have been designed to do in the first place (according Jason R at least), that's hardly an endorsement or an encouraging sign going forward when titles get more and more ambitious

That's the thing, it's not just Series S. A lot of games are coming in real hot these days for a lot of reasons (covid related issues being primary IMO), key features and optimizations aren't on the games until a few days/weeks after they get released. But when they get some extra time, they put out appropriate patches to maximize the respective hardware.

But to bring it back to Series S, I don't think any developer has said that they had to make cutbacks to a game which effected all versions because of Series S. So that tiny little box doesn't deserve the hate y'all.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Prove the XSS is holding back the XSX or any other platform in any way sir. You also might not know this but the XSS is more powerful than the PS4.

No indication of xss holding XSX as of now.

PS4 Pro has better looking games than the xss.

 

[Shmunter]

Neither is the XSS if devs just choose to make "Switch versions" for it.

K?

 

[Hendrick's]

Developers do see the difference.

And view the memory constraints as a pain. Which is what DF has covered in the video in the OP.

If it was so scalable and easy like people are implying here then I don't see why developers would feel the need to speak out about the console so much.

Guess it's easier to blame the developers rather than the hardware.

Every extra SKU a developer has to optimize for is a pain in the ass. Doesn't effect me or the games though.

 

[DarkMage619]

No indication of xss holding XSX as of now.

PS4 Pro has better looking games than the xss.

If the PS4 Pro had better looking games that is on the developer. No one here would say that the PS5 was the problem when that Lego Star Wars game had lower resolutions than the XSX.

 

[DaGwaphics]

I care because I firmly believe a high tide lifts all boats. The S muddies the entire generation. That’s all there is to it.

If Sony were to do it, I’d be even more critical. Luckily they looked beyond cashing in and did it right with the single baseline.

So how much harder do you think the PS5/XSX could have been pushed with the UE5 demo? I guess you figure they could have gone all out for 5fps? Is the XSS creating the issues that are already cropping up with 60fps modes only hitting 1080p?

It's hard to imagine a situation where the XSS is leaving untapped performance on the table for XSX/PS5, those boxes are hitting their limits as it is. Unless, you think the PS5/XSX should be targeting XSS resolutions and settings.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

If the PS4 Pro had better looking games that is on the developer. No one here would say that the PS5 was the problem when that Lego Star Wars game had lower resolutions than the XSX.

It does have better looking games.
No doubt about it.

You mean like how The Touryst is 8K on PS5 and 6K on XSX?

 

[Shmunter]

So how much harder do you think the PS5/XSX could have been pushed with the UE5 demo. I guess you figure they could have gone all out for 5fps?

You're referring to a demo that was created with high end specs in mind as a showpiece and consequently downported to the S.

But herein lies the rub. The port to S took considerable effort as documented by the coalition. By virtue of time, effort and money such outliers will never be the standard in business.

Those with less means or aiming to push out products will target for the lowest common denominator because scaling up is trivial vs scaling down which brings complexity like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

 

[DarkMage619]

It does have better looking games.
No doubt about it.

You mean like how The Touryst is 8K on PS5 and 6K on XSX?

You can see the higher resolution of the Touryst on the PS5 over the XSX? Honestly?

 

[DaGwaphics]

You're referring to a demo that was created with thigh end specs in mind as a showpiece and consequently downported to the S.

But herein lies the rub. The port to S took considerable effort as documented by the coalition. By virtue of time, effort and money such outliers will never be the standard in business.

Those with less means or aiming to push out products will target for the lowest common denominator because scaling up is trivial vs scaling down which brings complexity like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

The scaling up vs. scaling down thing seems to be more semantics than anything else. Short of the PS5/XSX running at 720p to render these bigger more complex worlds that aren't possible on XSS, it shouldn't be an issue.

If the showpiece can max the hardware, less demanding software certainly shouldn't have a problem.

 

[Shmunter]

The scaling up vs. scaling down thing seems to be more semantics than anything else. Short of the PS5/XSX running at 720p to render these bigger more complex worlds that aren't possible on XSS, it shouldn't be an issue.

If the showpiece can max the hardware, less demanding software certainly shouldn't have a problem.

Scaling is semantics? Less demanding software maxes hardware easier than demanding software? Sort of like Pacman?!?

Now you've completely done a Cirque du Soleil

 

[adamsapple]

You can see the higher resolution of the Touryst on the PS5 over the XSX? Honestly?

It actually downsamples to 4K (same for SX), it doesn't render natively at 8K even if you're hooked on an appropriate display.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Summary on the halo fixes from the title ?

 

[DarkMage619]

It actually downsamples to 4K (same for SX), it doesn't render natively at 8K even if you're hooked on an appropriate display.

So it sounds like the answer is no. So much was made of this title too.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

You can see the higher resolution of the Touryst on the PS5 over the XSX? Honestly?

Yes you can see a difference when downsampling.

I have done it on the PC and it cleans up the image.

For example Ori and the will of the wisps on XSX has a 6K to 4K downsampling mode and its a noticeable difference.

But anyways from DF's Touryst comparison....

"The intensity of the depth of field effect changes with resolution, so this effect looks quite different between the 4K and 8K modes. Interestingly though, Shin'en has managed to push even further. Shadow definition, for example, is cleaner and crisper on PS5 compared to Xbox Series X. In fact, shadow cascade resolution is boosted in many areas - the changes to Shin'en's exponential shadow map system results in a slight difference in shadowed areas manifested as lighting differences."

 

[Barakov]

Consumers don’t buy the most worthless junk?

This is not LittleTimmy fun time message board. This is a core gaming forum.

I'm sure there's plenty of satified Series S owners but a lot of people who bought the Series S, myself included, only bought it because we couldn't get our hands on a Series X.

 

[Shmunter]

I'm sure there's plenty of satified Series S owners but a lot of people who bought the Series S, myself included, only bought it because we couldn't get our hands on a Series X.

Be sure to destroy it after you secure an X. It must not live on…

 

[DaGwaphics]

Scaling is semantics? Less demanding software maxes hardware easier than demanding software? Sort of like Pacman?!?

Now you've completely done a Cirque du Soleil

I was referring to the work they would have to do to get things running on the XSS. If they can get the showcase running over there while still maxing out the big boys, a more realistic scenario shouldn't be a problem.

We'll see how it goes. So far, developers are getting the job done admirably, even if they aren't particularly thrilled about the XSS. I guess we'll see if that continues.

 

[Three]

IKR. It's such a nothing statement from a developer. The PS3 was a pain for the entire generation, go figure. It's out, it's selling, and consumers are okay with the box (the only voices that matter).

Whether the developers are warm and fuzzy about it or not doesn't figure into much at the end of the day.

You could say the same thing about mobiles. Doesn't mean people here should be happy about it. Not sure why people are bringing up the portable Steam deck either. It's a portable and runs games like a portable. How much has it even sold in comparison?

 

[Killer8]

XSS will be fine. The CPU is basically the same as in the XSX so will not hold it back. GPU bound games can just be visually stripped back as far as it takes until they run acceptably.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

DF and the game developers are the ones concerned. I didn't start this thread. They're just confirming what most of us have been saying since the Series S and its specs were revealed.

To be fair, Digital Founry make a living from concerns and Fanboy arguments. With the Series X and Ps5 being fairly close in performance, the Series S is a godsend to them as despite people who own the machine seeming happy and despite developers getting games out for the system, it gives them something to be worried, concerned and to hand wring about. Twitter and forums ignite and they get to bask in those sweet, sweet clicks. That's what Digital Foundry do.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Many occasions on this forum developers are being called out whenever the Series S doesn't have parity. It's ignorance at its finest.

But you're right occasionally developers spend time post launch to implement something that the console should have been designed to do in the first place (according Jason R at least), that's hardly an endorsement or an encouraging sign going forward when titles get more and more ambitious

Meh, every game comes in not just hot, but on fire at the moment.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Summary on the halo fixes from the title ?

Thread title is misleading, this topic is a Series S concern topic now.

 

[FireFly]

You're referring to a demo that was created with high end specs in mind as a showpiece and consequently downported to the S.

But herein lies the rub. The port to S took considerable effort as documented by the coalition. By virtue of time, effort and money such outliers will never be the standard in business.

Those with less means or aiming to push out products will target for the lowest common denominator because scaling up is trivial vs scaling down which brings complexity like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Games are sold in a competitive marketplace where graphics effect the desirability of the product. So developers will always be motivated to push for the best graphical effects possible. In that context, the biggest user base for 3rd party titles will be the XSX + PS5 consumers, so that's where the majority of the development effort will go. The "constraint" is that the game needs to be able to run in the memory footprint of the Series S in some form, but it remains to be seen how limiting that is. For example the Metro devs also "complained" about the Series S, but in the end were able to achieve 60 FPS with ray tracing on all platforms.

A "lazy port" of Metro could have been to drop the target to 30 FPS on the Series S. A lazy port of the Matrix demo could have been to remove ray tracing on the Series S entirely or use lower quality Nanite settings. Once you know you can hit the memory budget of the Series S, the resources you have to optimise for the platform just determine how close it looks to the PS5/XSX version. There are now plenty of games where the Series S version looks like a second class citizen (but still a big jump over last gen), with no discernable effect on the other platforms.

 

[Riky]

Series S often has twice the framerate of the mid gen refresh consoles, some games four times and higher settings
So "looking" better resolution wise on a last gen console is hardly a triumph.
But if you want the highest console resolution you should get a Series X as that outperforms all other consoles 99% of the time.

 

[phil_t98]

I find it funny that many many people on this forum are constant shitting on digital foundry saying they don't do certain things right or they get things wrong but as soon as digital foundry post something that fits their agenda its taken as straight up FACT. laughable, only have to see the first few posts on the this thread to see it lol

good video a s always though

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Series S often has twice the framerate of the mid gen refresh consoles, some games four times and higher settings
So "looking" better resolution wise on a last gen console is hardly a triumph.
But if you want the highest console resolution you should get a Series X as that outperforms all other consoles 99% of the time.

Just mentioning resolution without the framerate is peak trolling. It's like running games at 30 fps on an RTX 2070 and at 60 fps on an RTX 3070 and claiming the 2070 looks better because it can push higher resolutions. People are trying way too hard

 

[BigbyTheSheriff]

Series S is awesome.

 

[DaGwaphics]

You could say the same thing about mobiles. Doesn't mean people here should be happy about it. Not sure why people are bringing up the portable Steam deck either. It's a portable and runs games like a portable. How much has it even sold in comparison?

What we were getting at was people read too much into developers calling the XSS a PITA. They aren't saying they were forced to gut their software because of it, they are just saying they are annoyed by having to optimize for that extra target and they pointed to the available memory as the thing they have the most difficulty with (similar to how we've seen complaints about the Switch's low bandwidth). It's their right to be annoyed, just like many used to complain about PS3 or limitations with the Wii but it isn't exactly a sky is falling statement.

Steam reportedly has commitments from a lot of devs regarding Steam deck specific performance profiles in upcoming games, that absolutely needs to be considered because you can't really say the XSS is holding devs back if they are also targeting a weaker box already.

 

[Three]

What we were getting at was people read too much into developers calling the XSS a PITA. They aren't saying they were forced to gut their software because of it, they are just saying they are annoyed by having to optimize for that extra target and they pointed to the available memory as the thing they have the most difficulty with (similar to how we've seen complaints about the Switch's low bandwidth). It's their right to be annoyed, just like many used to complain about PS3 or limitations with the Wii but it isn't exactly a sky is falling statement.

Steam reportedly has commitments from a lot of devs regarding Steam deck specific performance profiles in upcoming games, that absolutely needs to be considered because you can't really say the XSS is holding devs back if they are also targeting a weaker box already.

Nobody is saying the sky is falling. The issue is that to release on xbox you are forced to gut your software to fit that system. That's where the annoyance comes from. Some devs commiting to providing performance profiles for steam games (which ones exactly? probably not the same ones) so they are playable on a portable steam deck is different. The steam deck isn't even a huge seller but imagine if all console manufacturers had the Series S as their main seller.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Nobody is saying the sky is falling. The issue is that to release on xbox you are forced to gut your software to fit that system. That's where the annoyance comes from. Some devs commiting to providing performance profiles for steam games (which ones exactly? probably not the same ones) so they are playable on a portable steam deck is different. The steam deck isn't even a huge seller but imagine if all console manufacturers had the Series S as their main seller.

We'll see if there is ever an instance where developers are saying we would have liked to have done XYZ but couldn't because of XSS. So far all we have is them saying it was a PITA to get things working on 8GB. With the PS5/XSX versions of software typically still pushing the boxes hard. MS isn't enforcing much in regards to XSS, seemingly just that the experience be the same (as far as levels, etc.) and the game be playable. Need to remove effects, no problem, we've seen that already. Need to run at a low resolution, not a problem, we've seen that too. Need to half the framerate, yeah, we've seen that already too.

 

[Riky]

We'll see if there is ever an instance where developers are saying we would have liked to have done XYZ but couldn't because of XSS. So far all we have is them saying it was a PITA to get things working on 8GB. With the PS5/XSX versions of software typically still pushing the boxes hard. MS isn't enforcing much in regards to XSS, seemingly just that the experience be the same (as far as levels, etc.) and the game be playable. Need to remove effects, no problem, we've seen that already. Need to run at a low resolution, not a problem, we've seen that too. Need to half the framerate, yeah, we've seen that already too.

Exactly, the only mandate seems to be that the gameplay has to be intact as your save works across consoles, that's it.

 

[Three]

We'll see if there is ever an instance where developers are saying we would have liked to have done XYZ but couldn't because of XSS. So far all we have is them saying it was a PITA to get things working on 8GB. With the PS5/XSX versions of software typically still pushing the boxes hard. MS isn't enforcing much in regards to XSS, seemingly just that the experience be the same (as far as levels, etc.) and the game be playable. Need to remove effects, no problem, we've seen that already. Need to run at a low resolution, not a problem, we've seen that too. Need to half the framerate, yeah, we've seen that already too.

They already had said it at id software then they were bought.

 

[DaGwaphics]

They already had said it at id software then they were bought.

Not really. Just like with Metro, they had concerns. So far, those concerns haven't amounted to much in regards to the final product, the DE XSS patch runs great.

 

[Three]

Not really. Just like with Metro, they had concerns. So far, those concerns haven't amounted to much in regards to the final product, the DE XSS patch runs great.

They were talking about future games and asset creation not empty concerns that amounted to nothing. Their other concern amounted to what they mentioned about not being able to support BVH due to memory constraints. This actually showed in the DE patch. Completely missing quality mode on the Series S. That was based on an already released game. One where they couldn't cut other things like map size or enemies on screen (or in Metros case other things on screen) to fit the memory constraints of the newly released weaker console. They didnt need to do much either because it was a last gen game to boot. Future decisions will be based on it with what they choose to support. Parity in most things outside of res will be targeted and that means everything else would have to fit the XSS.

It's like trying to sell a really small apartment and saying what can't you do with this space that you can in a bigger one. A whole lot, you can live in it but what furniture and features you decide to fit it with is based on the small size of the apartment. Saying it doesn't really matter is just making excuses for the seller.

 

[Riky]

Not really. Just like with Metro, they had concerns. So far, those concerns haven't amounted to much in regards to the final product, the DE XSS patch runs great.

Yes Metro and Matrix Awakens are doing things not possible even on Xbox One X the most powerful last gen console. As for Metro id probably prioritised framerate over RT, with RT it may have to run at 30fps and each developer will decide what suits their game which is how it should be.
Same as some PC games like Far Cry 6 and Dying Light 2 having RT features totally missing on Series X and PS5, that doesn't mean they are gimped but that a fixed hardware for the mainstream has to have compromises somewhere.

 

[DaGwaphics]

They were talking about future games and asset creation not empty concerns that amounted to nothing. Their other concern amounted to what they mentioned about not being able to support BVH due to memory constraints. This actually showed in the DE patch. Completely missing quality mode on the Series S. That was based on an already released game. One where they couldn't cut other things like map size or enemies on screen (or in Metros case other things on screen) to fit the memory constraints of the newly released weaker console. They didnt need to do much either because it was a last gen game to boot. Future decisions will be based on it with what they choose to support. Parity in most things outside of res will be targeted and that means everything else would have to fit the XSS.

It's like trying to sell a really small apartment and saying what can't you do with this space that you can in a bigger one. A whole lot, you can live in it but what furniture and features you decide to fit it with is based on the small size of the apartment. Saying it doesn't really matter is just making excuses for the seller.

I just comment on things released and statements made about games released. It's a waist of time worrying about every little thing that "COULD" happen. If I were going to go down that road, and since I can see how the PS5/XSX have performed in some of these games that support XSS without issue, I'd have more concerns about the shape they'd be in if things got pushed beyond what could be downported to XSS, tbh.