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[Theognosis]

This is disappointing but then again Platinum developers are not known as programming wizards on any platform. Hence, this game is not an indicator of what the Wii U can or cannot do technically. Based on the 3rd party outputs so far, It seems that only Nintendo knows how to make the most out of the Wii U hardware. Let's see how Shin'en fares when they reveal Fast Racing Neo soon. I still think the Wii U has plenty of untapped potential.

In the meantime, I'm buying Bayonetta 2 and have a great time with it. In the first place, I bought a Wii U to play games I won't find anywhere else. As long as the game runs greater than 30 fps, I'm fine with it. The fact that Bayonetta 2 runs better than the magnificent-controlling Wonderful 101 is saying much. It all sounds mighty good to me!

 

[dark10x]

Because Nintendo is the white knight in shining armor who saved this franchise and P* are saints for making FUN games, so we should not complaint about anything involving little details like framate and performance, and we should thank them and throw money at them because they deserve it.

They do make great games but that shouldn't exude this stuff. W101 was nearly ruined for me as a result of the awful frame-rate. That's not the case here, thankfully, but a great game can be tarnished by technical problems.

 

[imae]

Also, there's a reason the footage shown so far isn't jarring. It's because of marketing. There's no reason for them to show unsteady footage when they can easily show it steady.

You can see that frame rate drops below 60FPS in most of the 60fps videos that have been released over the past few months, you could see it in the Treehouse & Comic Con footage too.
Thing is, the drop is just not that significant to be a big issue imo, I think many people just don't get what that FPS graph means gameplay wise, and instead they interpret it as a significant issue.

I like reading the DF articles, but feel analysis such as these should be included as part of the review first, so that reader will have a better understanding of what it means in terms of the overall quality of the product. The more in depth analysis should then come later.

 

[Teletraan1]

I'm not mad about the framerate. I'm just disappointed.

Will still buy and enjoy. Hope Bayo1 is a bit better in this regard.

 

[Dicer]

Who decides to play a game based on the tech aspects? Come on, point out those people.

Oh right, you can't do that actually.

Anyway, no offense but don't be an elitist. If you can't see fps differences so easily there's nothing wrong with that. But there are people who are more sensitive to it or even very sensitive to it. There's nothing wrong with that either. Performance matters to every single person (the limit of what you can take just varies obviously) and it's good that we have people who measure it.

Also, there's a reason the footage shown so far isn't jarring. It's because of marketing. There's no reason for them to show unsteady footage when they can easily show it steady.

This and every DF thread is full of them, sarcastically and not.

I can see differences but again they aren't deal breakers for me, if someone has some sort of "hyper framerate sensitivity" how are they gaming on consoles at all?

Analyzing a game is fine, it's just the fallout that ensues that is the problem.

It's not only about this game, it's about every time DF comes up.

 

[Squishy3]

You can see that frame rate drops below 60FPS in most of the 60fps videos that have been released over the past few months, you could see it in the Treehouse & Comic Con footage too.
Thing is, the drop is just not that significant to be a big issue imo, I think many people just don't get what that FPS graph means gameplay wise, and instead they interpret it as a significant issue.

I like reading the DF articles, but feel analysis such as these should be included as part of the review first, so that reader will have a better understanding of what it means in terms of the overall quality of the product. The more in depth analysis should then come later.

That's not true, it's still a significant drop since it's dropping into the 40s/30s. However, a game dropping from 60 down to that range is a lot more acceptable than a game that's capped at 30 dropping into the 20s or teens.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Really? Dismissing valid complaints just like that? I've put in about 75 hours into W101 and I have been hit several times because the framerate literally grinds to a complete halt. The game drops down to friggin' 5fps during moments of the Vorkken battles, making it completely impossible to A) See what is coming your way and B) Properly time your Guts/Dodge inputs.

I would say any post that would actually try to claim W101 drops to 5 fps (which makes me question if you know what fps means...) should probably be dismissed

 

[Fbh]

After Wonderful 101 I hardly see why this is surprising.

They also said 60fps for that game and it also rarely mantained them. Having seen no actual framerate analysis I'd dare to say it droped below 30fps at some points. (actually when you slow down time and there several energy blast on screen I'd dare to say it goes to a single digit framerate)

It's still one of the best games on the system and I'm expecting no less from Bayonetta 2.

 

[SkeptiMism]

This and every DF thread is full of them, sarcastically and not.

I can see differences but again they aren't deal breakers for me, if someone has some sort of "hyper framerate sensitivity" how are they gaming on consoles at all?

Analyzing a game is fine, it's just the fallout that ensues that is the problem.

It's not only about this game, it's about every time DF comes up.

I'm pretty sure there's been one single guy in this thread so far who has said he's waiting for sale unless the frame rate gets fixed. I don't think it's very common at all in DF threads to see people saying they won't buy the game because of technical issues.

However, even if there is a fallout sometimes, that's not Digital Foundry's problem. It's the problem of people making it too big a deal.

 

[Squishy3]

I would say any post that would actually try to claim W101 drops to 5 fps (which makes me question if you know what fps means...) should probably be dismissed

It probably drops down close to that amount at one point in the game but it's certainly not in the Vorkken battles. It's all during the very end of the game, during the various segments of the final boss. When he's shooting the lasers as you're collecting all your dudes to break the barriers and when he shoots all the purple goo at you as you're destroying the weak points on his body.

 

[ShadowElliot]

I don't care if Bayonetta 2 doesn't keep up with 60FPS. I'm excited for the game and I'm gonna have fun with it after replaying Bayonetta 1 again.

 

[kick51]

Who decides to play a game based on the tech aspects? Come on, point out those people.

Oh right, you can't do that actually.

Anyway, no offense but don't be an elitist. If you can't see fps differences so easily there's nothing wrong with that. But there are people who are more sensitive to it or even very sensitive to it. There's nothing wrong with that either. Performance matters to every single person (the limit of what you can take just varies obviously) and it's good that we have people who measure it.

Also, there's a reason the footage shown so far isn't jarring. It's because of marketing. There's no reason for them to show unsteady footage when they can easily show it steady.

for an action game, this is at the edge of acceptable for me (I can only speak for myself.) if it was fluctuating much more, I'd be more concerned about dropped and delayed inputs and in this case, that would prevent me from making a pretty big purchase (A wii u system + this game.) As of now, I've gone from day 1 purchase to waiting for post-release impressions.

so, it's not a purely aesthetic consideration for me.

 

[imae]

That's not true, it's still a significant drop since it's dropping into the 40s/30s. However, a game dropping from 60 down to that range is a lot more acceptable than a game that's capped at 30 dropping into the 20s or teens.

It was imo , but in the more complex scenes where it does drop to ~35-40 it''s averaging more around 50, not 60. So I don't feel the drop will be too detrimental to the experience. The drops are not too sharp.

What do you think the significant drop will mean for the overall gameplay experience?. (i.e. do you think it's really a big issue, and if so to what degree?)

 

[Theognosis]

Thing is, the drop is just not that significant to be a big issue imo, I think many people just don't get what that FPS graph means gameplay wise, and instead they interpret it as a significant issue.

Yes, framerate consistency in an action game is not as important as in other games, like racing and sports (i.e. when you drive on a straight track it should be smooth). The drops could even be by design. The intentional split-second drop in framerate or slow mo provides a sense of gratification when you hit an object or perform special moves, and I suspect that is the case here. Was this feature in Bayonetta 2 considered in Digital Foundry's analysis? I don't think so.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Honestly, some of you are bloody ridiculous.

Bayonetta 2 is a graphical improvement over Bayonetta 1, of this there is no question.

But to suggest that the WiiU hardware is not causing limitations in this kind of game is frankly absurd.

Pointing to Nintendos games and NFSMW is nonsense. No Nintendo game released on the system has half as much going on at the same time. They are rather simplistic in comparsion.

And pointing to a port from last generation consoles of a racer at that does you no favours either.

Even the Bayo 1 port (even though we have seen almost nothing of it) isnt a good example.

The closest example bar TW101 is NG3:RE and that ran atrociously on the WiiU.

 

[imae]

Well, I think there are always limitations no matter the platform. It just comes down to how far the developer is wiling to go in terms of sacrificing frames for more looks.

 

[Ragnarok]

Oh man anyone who ever tried to say that bayonetta 2 wasn't that impressive would get an earful (eyeful?) of "yeah well it's 60fps!! Is god of war 60fps??? Nintendo hardware is awesome! 60fps guys! All hail Nintendo!!"

Funny to see the goalposts move so much. I guess sub 60fps and downright ugly IQ are just fine for y'all now.

Disappointing to say the least. Still looking forward to the game though

 

[Bronetta]

40-60 fps is still more than most games and impressive considering the amount of stuff happening on screen.

 

[kick51]

Yes, framerate consistency in an action game is not as important as in other games, like racing and sports (i.e. when you drive on a straight track it should be smooth).

huh? maybe you're not as into action games, but for people who want to push themselves to play it at high levels of skill, a solid frame rate is one of the most important technical considerations, along with the camera.

 

[Dicer]

Oh man anyone who ever tried to say that bayonetta 2 wasn't that impressive would get an earful (eyeful?) of "yeah well it's 60fps!! Is god of war 60fps??? Nintendo hardware is awesome! 60fps guys! All hail Nintendo!!"

Funny to see the goalposts move so much. I guess sub 60fps and downright ugly IQ are just fine for y'all now.

Disappointing to say the least. Still looking forward to the game though

You are a funny guy....

 

[ninjablade]

Oh man anyone who ever tried to say that bayonetta 2 wasn't that impressive would get an earful (eyeful?) of "yeah well it's 60fps!! Is god of war 60fps??? Nintendo hardware is awesome! 60fps guys! All hail Nintendo!!"

Funny to see the goalposts move so much. I guess sub 60fps and downright ugly IQ are just fine for y'all now.

Disappointing to say the least. Still looking forward to the game though

And that's why you have people like dicer complaining and calling DF cancer cause they can't spread there fud anymore.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

Honestly, some of you are bloody ridiculous.

Bayonetta 2 is a graphical improvement over Bayonetta 1, of this there is no question.

But to suggest that the WiiU hardware is not causing limitations in this kind of game is frankly absurd.

Pointing to Nintendos games and NFSMW is nonsense. No Nintendo game released on the system has half as much going on at the same time. They are rather simplistic in comparsion.

And pointing to a port of last generation consoles of a racer at that does you no favours either.

The closest example bar TW101 is NG3:RE and that ran atrociously on the WiiU.

I don't think anyone denies the limitations of any hardware, because it's true of all consoles and PC.

Point being made, is that devs no matter what hardware they're on choose performance over post-processing effects and post-processing effects over performance.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Because people decide to play game based on tech aspects, doesn't matter if a game is actually good or fun, missing a few frames can mean someone won't enjoy a game...to me it's all sort of silly.

DF is just an enabler for fanboyism and dick waving...

Bayonetta looks to be a step up in every way from the first, and no footage so far looks jarring at all, but that meter down the bottom gives people all the fuel they need for the console war cannons.

That's a problem with the person, not the website who provides the information. i'd much rather be informed about the technical aspects of this industry than take the "ignorance is bliss" route. Information like this is good for consumers and good for the industry as well.

 

[Ragnarok]

You are a funny guy....

Are you trying to say that there aren't jaggies everywhere? Because there just are...

 

[ninjablade]

Are you trying to say that there aren't jaggies everywhere? Because there just are...

The game has no AA, at 720p how can it not have ugly IQ.

 

[pixlexic]

The game has no AA, at 720p how can it not have ugly IQ.

I think at 720 somestimes AA just ruins the look of the game. Like MK8 .. I think its a beautiful game that would have been ruined with an blurry AA implementation.

 

[Squishy3]

It was imo , but in the more complex scenes where it does drop to ~35-40 it''s averaging more around 50, not 60. So I don't feel the drop will be too detrimental to the experience. The drops are not too sharp.

What do you think the significant drop will mean for the overall gameplay experience?. (i.e. do you think it's really a big issue, and if so to what degree?)

I don't think it'll affect it too much, but obviously none of us will know until we have the game in our hands. I believe the lowest FPS hit during a combat encounter in the DF video was 38 FPS when the player was in Umbran Climax in the final segment against the miniboss. In any of the other combat encounters, it never dipped below 40 FPS.

 

[kick51]

i don't think wii u hw has anything to do with it. PG hasn't made a solid 60fps game yet for any system.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I don't think anyone denies the limitations of any hardware, because it's true of all consoles and PC.

Point being made, is that devs no matter what hardware they're on choose performance over post-processing effects and post-processing effects over performance.

Which is the right choice to make, considering the goal of this game is to out-do the previous entry.

Im sorry, people cant have it both ways. Bayonetta 2 by and large looks better than its predecessor. But believing that it could look that good and run at a locked 60FPS was always overestimating the capabilities of the WiiU.

You can point the finger at platinum all you want but the fact is people just need to accept that the WiiU is not a powerful console.

A bayonetta 2 that runs at a locked 60fps would look worse and more limited in scope than this. Simple as that.

I find it highly ironic that people were trying to use this game as a tentpole of how powerful the system was. Platinum have never ever been techincal wizards. Their skill is in amazing gameplay and efficent, speedy development.

 

[TheBanditKing]

"Dreamcast-like quality"
That quote excited me for some reason.

This was the highlight of the article for me

 

[ninjablade]

Which is the right choice to make, considering the goal of this game is to out-do the previous entry.

Im sorry, people cant have it both ways. Bayonetta 2 by and large looks better than its predecessor. But believing that it could look that good and run at a locked 60FPS was always overestimating the capabilities of the WiiU.

You can point the finger at platinum all you want but the fact is people just need to accept that the WiiU is not a powerful console.

A bayonetta 2 that runs at a locked 60fps would look worse and more limited in scope than this. Simple as that.

I find it highly ironic that people were trying to use this game as a tentpole of how powerful the system was. Platinum have never ever been techincal wizards. Their skill is in amazing gameplay and efficent, speedy development.

I don't agree with this, DMC4 was an early last gen game and was solid 60fps and looks as good as baynetta 2, I'm sure baynetta 2 as is, could be done on 360/ps3/wiiu at a solid 60fps it's just platinum has never been know for there technical prowess.

 

[dark10x]

I think at 720 somestimes AA just ruins the look of the game. Like MK8 .. I think its a beautiful game that would have been ruined with an blurry AA implementation.

I think MK8 worked due to its simple, clean color scheme and smart design. Bayonetta 2 suffers a lot more with its noisier detail and awful awful texture filtering.

Image quality is quite poor, no doubt, but the game looks quite nice despite that somehow. I think they would have been better off eliminating mip-maps for the floors. The resulting shimmering would have been less than optimal as well but certainly better than the soupy textures it currently has.

I don't agree with this, DMC4 was an early last gen game and was solid 60fps and looks as good as baynetta 2, I'm sure baynetta 2 as is, could be done on 360/ps3/wiiu at a solid 60fps it's just platinum has never been know for there technical prowess.

DMC4 looks very nice *BUT* it goes far less crazy with its set pieces. It's relatively mundane setting and lack of crazy, screen filling effects work to its benefit. In that case, however, it was the right call and it benefits greatly as a result.

 

[PensivePen]

Anyone who was expecting this to be a locked 60 were fooling themselves. Platinum has yet to develop a game without framerate drops. They seem to be more concerned with maintaining 40-60 most of the time while making further allowances for particularly hectic scenes. Locked 60 is obviously not their goal and not something they design their games or engine around. I would say the fact that it holds up about as well as Bayo 1 and Rising despite looking considerable better than either is quite impressive.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I don't agree with this, DMC4 was an early last gen game and was solid 60fps and looks as good as baynetta 2, I'm sure baynetta 2 as is, could be done on 360/ps3/wiiu at a solid 60fps it's just platinum has never been know for there technical prowess.

DMC4 does not have anywhere near as much going on as the original Bayonetta much less this.

DMC4 likely had a far higher budget and was the tentpole release of a custom built next gen engine.

DMC4 for all its flaws was not in development hell to the point that it was cancelled then rebuilt for hardware that architecturely has very little in common with with its original target.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

I don't agree with this, DMC4 was an early last gen game and was solid 60fps and looks as good as baynetta 2

This is not true...at all and DMC4 is NO WHERE near as busy as even Bayo 1

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Metal Gear Rising does not run better than Bayonetta 2. They are just about on par with one another, really. Bayonetta on 360 does run faster than Bayonetta 2, however, but screen tearing is an issue. The Wonderful 101 runs much much MUCH worse than all of them (almost in line with Bayonetta PS3 - except without tearing). Vanquish was made at 30 fps and that was the right move as it is fairly consistent and works OK with the game design. Unlocked would have been a mess in that case.

The Wii U hardware has issues, no doubt, but so does the 360 and PS3. We know it wasn't a machine designed to compete with the latest consoles but it is still capable of putting out attractive games. Nintendo has managed to deliver lots of excellent looking games at rock solid frame-rates. In this case, the issue is Platinum Games.

We'll see PG Xbone game to see if the problem is the dev or too ambitious scale and effects in the action scenes + lack of raw power.

I don't think Nintendo games are a good comparisson to what PG tries to reach on their actions games and the amount of things that happens in the screen.

 

[ninjablade]

DMC4 looks very nice *BUT* it goes far less crazy with its set pieces. It's relatively mundane setting and lack of crazy, screen filling effects work to its benefit. In that case, however, it was the right call and it benefits greatly as a result.

yes it does have less crazy stuff going on but other then that I don't think baynetta 2 does anything better graphically then DmC4, and thats an early last gen game.

 

[Neff]

oh my wow

 

[GodParticle]

I hadn't been following this, but I thought it was going to be a locked 60. Judging from that analysis, I'd honestly rather them just drop it down to a locked 30 instead of it doing a roller coaster

 

[JayEH]

It's a shame about the framerate.

 

[entremet]

Watched a bit of the Youtube clip, looks like it's closer to 30 than 60 during intense fights.

YT is 30FPS, tho

 

[dark10x]

yes it does have less crazy stuff going on but other then that I don't think baynetta 2 does anything better graphically then DmC4, and thats an early last gen game.

That's the brilliance of MT Framework. It was an incredible engine all around and DMC4 was one of the best performers with both the 360 and PS3 versions hitting a very stable 60 fps. They did sacrifice shadow quality big time, of course, but the rest of the game looked great.

It also uses actual MSAA and doesn't suffer from completely awful texture filtering. So, in stills, it actually looks very decent. Very cleaner than anything Platinum has produced. It's pretty insane that it came out so early in the life of the last-gen systems, really.

We'll see PG Xbone game to see if the problem is the dev or too ambitious scale and effects in the action scenes + lack of raw power.

I actually expect it to have issues. They're used to writing their own engines but they're switching to the relatively new Unreal Engine 4 which has only really seen on finished game released thus far (which ran like dog shit on PCs and PS4 alike). I'm sure they can do better than THAT but it seems like a recipe for trouble to me.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

That's the brilliance of MT Framework. It was an incredible engine all around and DMC4 was one of the best performers with both the 360 and PS3 versions hitting a very stable 60 fps. They did sacrifice shadow quality big time, of course, but the rest of the game looked great.

It also uses actual MSAA and doesn't suffer from completely awful texture filtering. So, in stills, it actually looks very decent. Very cleaner than anything Platinum has produced. It's pretty insane that it came out so early in the life of the last-gen systems, really.


I actually expect it to have issues. They're used to writing their own engines but they're switching to the relatively new Unreal Engine 4 which has only really seen on finished game released thus far (which ran like dog shit on PCs and PS4 alike). I'm sure they can do better than THAT but it seems like a recipe for trouble to me.

MT framewirk is the best engine capcom has ever made. I have no faith the new one will be anywhere near as versatile.

 

[plainr_]

i don't think wii u hw has anything to do with it. PG hasn't made a solid 60fps game yet for any system.

I don't play or follow their games but I always had Platinum Games pegged as one of the few studios out there to prioritize gameplay AND performance over anything else. At least that is the impression I got from all the praise and stuff I read on here. I am legitimately surprised to find out that is not the case after reading this DF article. Boy, was I completely off the mark.

I'm not one to really complain about fluctuating frames per second anyway, so even if I did had an interest in this game, I wouldn't be bothered by what I've seen so far. As long as it is playable, I don't care much really. Today is boring so I did happen to stumble onto this thread out of curiosity. I rarely do enter PG related threads.

 

[ninjablade]

That's the brilliance of MT Framework. It was an incredible engine all around and DMC4 was one of the best performers with both the 360 and PS3 versions hitting a very stable 60 fps. They did sacrifice shadow quality big time, of course, but the rest of the game looked great.

It also uses actual MSAA and doesn't suffer from completely awful texture filtering. So, in stills, it actually looks very decent. Very cleaner than anything Platinum has produced. It's pretty insane that it came out so early in the life of the last-gen systems, really

it's a shame DMC5 was never made on that engine, I would have loved to see what they can do, probably would have been the best looking action game by far last gen.

 

[uncredited male]

 

[megabytecr]

I am very happy with the Wii U since launch and Bayo 1 and 2 are probably my most anticipated game this year.

Since the Wii U tech thread we have come a long way and we have a better picture of the Wii U hardware, except for some 3rd party games which did not have the dev time to take advantage of the hardware.

I do feel that Nintendo missed the sweet spot with the Wii U by a small margin, still I am not completely sure, and I know that 60fps is a design decision, and most Nintendo games are stable 60fps and look amazing, but they do it with some tradeoffs.

IMHO the Wii U needed harware to run last gen games at 720p60 with added effects and good AA solution, that to me would have been the sweet spot for Wii U, but they missed it by a small margin. Bayo 2 performance seems to imply this, as this had a good budget and good dedication, plus the team worked on W101 before, but the game is not hitting 60fps consistently with the added effects.

 

[kick51]

yeah, DMC4 has far less going on than Bayonetta. Don't forget it's about half a game's worth of levels doubled up with backtracking. It doesn't go nearly as crazy with enemy counts, enemy size/detail, sparks, particles, butterflies, misty purple/pink shit, blooming flower hit spark, etc. There's no comparison to be made there. I would take less of that stuff in a trade for performance. Bayo 1's insanity is sometimes way too busy and I found myself guesstimating dodge timing a lot.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't agree with this, DMC4 was an early last gen game and was solid 60fps and looks as good as baynetta 2, I'm sure baynetta 2 as is, could be done on 360/ps3/wiiu at a solid 60fps it's just platinum has never been know for there technical prowess.

DMC4 also has next to nothing happening in 99.9% of the environments besides basic destruction physics. Also it's mainly corridors compared to bayonetta's more open but still linear environments.

 

[Arion]

Baka Platinum, I didn't want those frames anyway.