thekiddfran
Member
Sad to think this will be the last ND uncharted 
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Digital Foundry: Hands-on with Uncharted 4 multiplayer
- Thread starter Loudninja
- Start date
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Feather the edges, make it look like the camera's a blinking god's point of view and it's styled-in!
Dictator93
Member
The flash lights could be a geometry and screen space effect together. Do we have images of them interesting with things away from the camera view?
Sad to think this will be the last ND uncharted
IMO, I think it is cool that they do something else. They obvious do not half-ass anything they do.
Ah, definitely been too long since I played the game. Some of the time they're not really present, but there are some scenes with lots. I'd sort of forgotten what the enemy's flashlights were like.
Since player-controlled lights were mentioned, I was thinking of their effective shadows, but I don't remember them ever having volumetrics.
Yea I count 4 of those halogen lamps with volumetric light sources and 3 of those flashlights that seems be casting shadows when Drake is occluding the light cone and that's only the first section of the room, more in the other half of the room. That's not really using it sparingly.
I don't now if the enemy flashlight is a mix of screen space and geometry (it's difficult to get an enemy flashlight to get into a position where it is occluding something unless it's the enemy pointing at you directly) but for main characters it is most definitely volumetric and they don't really look any different to these enemy flashlight.
EDIT: Just checked, main character flashlight does nothing. Sorry guys I was wrong on that bit.
Dictator93
Member
Thanks a lot for the link!
Is it interesecting with geometry here?
https://youtu.be/h9u9rs58NCs?t=7m13s
or here?
https://youtu.be/h9u9rs58NCs?t=7m42s
here?
https://youtu.be/h9u9rs58NCs?t=6m35s
They could be geometry and screen space effects combined. Hence why they appear to clip with level geometry instead of being occluded? Those flood lights scattered across the level seem to be real ones.
thelastword
Banned
I mentioned in the B-roll footage thread that Naughty Dog has chosen to maintain some really impressive graphical effects in MP. Top quality OMB, the composition of lighting shown was pretty top notch as well as their effects works, which are all very high end in MP.It's not like the PS4 remaster of the first three games included multiplayer.
Besides, I don't think 900p is really THAT offensive. It kind of depends on your display and seating distance. On a PC monitor, yeah, it is actually offensive when upscaled. When you sit so close to the screen any upscaling becomes hideous.
On a TV, though, from 7ft away? Honestly, it's not that bad. I can tolerate it. Of course, I'm still happy to play games at 240p and 480p with nearest neighbor scaling.
I mean, look at these edges here. Ignoring the compression artefacts, it's reasonably sharp for 900p.
http://i.picpar.com/6H8b.png
That said, I game on a plasma and the sub-pixel configuration is different from an LCD monitor. 900p upscaled to 1080p actually does look noticeably sharper on the plasma than it does on a 1080p LCD, I've found.
I'd take native resolution over upscaled any day, but if it's a sacrifice made in the name of performance, I can accept it.
I'm also looking at some really impressive physics work that was maintained in MP from SP. Barring physics of course, I really think they should tone down the graphcial quality a few notches to sustain native resolution. I believe image clarity is extremely important in an MP shooter (unless it's a tone being set, warzone/desolate KZ2 settings, which has nothing to do with IQ anyway). At least that was native/standard, it had to be. Generally, native rez is extremely important for picking up detail and not squinting too much across maps. UC3 is bright and pulpy, native rez would go a long way.
lukeskymac
Member
Where have the people from the 900p thread gone to?
I'd bet reducing polycounts would take quite a lot of work. Uncharted Multiplayer has always been secondary, so I don't see ND shifting more resources than they have to.
I'd bet reducing polycounts would take quite a lot of work. Uncharted Multiplayer has always been secondary, so I don't see ND shifting more resources than they have to.
That "crappy blur" exists in real life too just so you know in both forms i.e. object and camera.
High framerate does not make motion blur unnecessary and it's not unrealistic either. Just because it says motion blur does not automatically make it crappy blur or "blur smeared across the screen", especially when it's Naughty Dog's implementation which always seems to be among the best for its time.
The AA is quite good at cleaning up the edges. I like the solution they've used a lot especially since they've cleaned it up since E3. Looking forward to how it looks at 1080pIt's not like the PS4 remaster of the first three games included multiplayer.
Besides, I don't think 900p is really THAT offensive. It kind of depends on your display and seating distance. On a PC monitor, yeah, it is actually offensive when upscaled. When you sit so close to the screen any upscaling becomes hideous.
On a TV, though, from 7ft away? Honestly, it's not that bad. I can tolerate it. Of course, I'm still happy to play games at 240p and 480p with nearest neighbor scaling.
I mean, look at these edges here. Ignoring the compression artefacts, it's reasonably sharp for 900p.
http://i.picpar.com/6H8b.png
That said, I game on a plasma and the sub-pixel configuration is different from an LCD monitor. 900p upscaled to 1080p actually does look noticeably sharper on the plasma than it does on a 1080p LCD, I've found.
I'd take native resolution over upscaled any day, but if it's a sacrifice made in the name of performance, I can accept it.
I wish I had a plasma
JealousI know upscaled stuff can vary in quality even on LCD. My main gaming set is way crappier than the living room set and upscaled stuff looks a lot worse on mine. 60fps helps a good deal more on my set to mitigate it.
That they seem to occlude from some things and not others actually makes me wonder if they're using extruded geometry, but I'm not sure how that would work.
Dictator93
Member
Won't they probably pre-scale it to 1080p on the PS4 GPU? I at least hope they would so people do not have to deal with their set scaling and added input lag.
Although, as the framerate increases, cleaning up temporal aliasing requires less and less motion blur. The motion blur that exists in real life is produced in your eyes and brain, and would be naturally visible on ultra-high-framerate video with no motion blur added.
...Not that I'd agree that 60fps games shouldn't be using any MB.
Yes. This is what the video output resolution setting on PS4 does.
Or their terrible upscalers.
I think most games that are not native upscale internally and at times the result can be something amazing, like Ryse. Yes I know 900P and all but it is imo one of the cleanest games released so far on either consoles despite the sub native upscale blur.
Yea I know but I doubt he was referring to that.
Because I do know there is a certain crowd that does not like motion blur at all and considers any implementation of it to be hideous no matter how good it is....Totalbiscuit is one of those people.
Per object at 60FPS can be quite amazing !
Dictator93
Member
Only if it also had the same thing that the PS3 sometimes had, being able to change game rendering resolution with it.
Ryse on xb1 is suprisingly clean. Same on PC when using the scaling option.
Can?
is
icecold1983
Member
the materials and lighting look pretty good to me. ND continues to have the best animation., they are quite far ahead of almost every other game. their temporal AA is also pretty good, but not as good as epics. they also handle lod pretty well, and seem to avoid the worst case scenarios you see in every other title wrt shadow lod.
Although I do wonder how many games use PS4's hardware scaler and how many just scale it internally with the engine.Only if it also had the same thing that the PS3 sometimes had, being able to change game rendering resolution with it.
Ryse on xb1 is suprisingly clean. Same on PC when using the scaling option.
As I mentioned Ryse was scaled internally and it looked that good despite being sub HD at a time when XB1's hardware upscaler added a sharpness filter that also crushed the blacks.
Ofcourse
thelastword
Banned
Yeah, I get that you don't like MB, I dont' think it's ncessary either at 60fps. OMB can be quite expensive too based on the quality used. The MB in UC4 mp is quite a high quality from I've seen..... I do get that ND is at the helm of pushing cutting edge graphics and tech on consoles, (and this is where I respect them greatly) but for MP, I don't think anyone would slight ND too much for toning down some effects for a native image at 60fps. Based on the footage I've seen, the only compromises noted in the MP are some running water efects and toned down character faces/models.
Apparently shadow quality has been toned down as well.
thelastword
Banned
Noted, but perhaps that's a start in relinquishing some GPU resources for native rez
The PS4 defnitely pre-scales. The thing is, the sub-pixel arrangement on different displays still has an impact even when the image in question isn't scaled by the display. I can see it clear as day when mirroring my PC out across my three LCD monitors and my plasma. They're very different beasts.
The plasma copes much better with lower resolution source material, I've found, even when scaled.
Dictator93
Member
But you'd need more than toning down "some effects" to get 1080P 60FPS...seeing how 900P/60FPS is already more demanding than the campaign's 1080P/30FPS and hence they have already toned down visual effects apparently for MP.
Hugh Swank
Member
Now that we're getting a look at UC4 multiplayer, I think Digital Foundry should make their "Halo-5: The Price of 60fps" into a series, so they can show us what each developer does to achieve 60fps.
They can do BLOPS3, they can do UC4 when it's complete, then they can do every other 60fps console game. It would be interesting to hear about the different techniques.
They can do BLOPS3, they can do UC4 when it's complete, then they can do every other 60fps console game. It would be interesting to hear about the different techniques.
That...is actually not a bad idea !
Seeing how we have two more high profile 60FPS releases next month and then another one in December (Rainbow Six). BO3 seems to be pushing quite a lot for a 60FPS 1080p/900p tittle on both consoles.
It's a big part of why many people like CRTs. Color data is convolved with a soft and rounded kernel, which introduces much less reconstruction aliasing than the "square pixels" of an LCD.
This usually means things look slicker in general and not just upscaled content, but it might avoid exacerbating the upscale artifacts further.
I wonder if we will ever see a new display technology in the near future that changes everything.
Dictator93
Member
Dark10x made mention how he has played recent games on a CRT and how awesome it is. I would love to try it at some point again.
I have not used a CRt in nearly a decade for my PC.
lukeskymac
Member
A shame my father didn't spring for a top of the line model when he decided to get a plasma as our first HD television. Even in our cheap Panny, with its blacks almost grayer than a cheap LCD's, you can feel the motion resolution difference.
Dark and I have very similar tastes and standards in displays. Stuff like that and motion resolution are things we're far more sensitive to than most, hence why I'm a proponent of 60fps particularly for temporal res and why I always want motion blur for smoothing animation.
I will bay huge money for an OLED with proper motion resolution.
As you guys may know, while producing 60 FPS you have half the time to complete a graphic routines and basically a frame. We know the PS4 is capable having a 1080p frame without clogging the bandwidth. The problem I see with 60 FPS is based off of the GPU's specs you would have to cut the poly budget in half, physics routines or the amount of objects governed by the physics code are cut as well. Correct me if I'm wrong here but if all of those things are cut a little more than half, wouldn't it be possible to run the game at 1080p/60 FPS. Also I feel when tessellation hits the scene more often, it may help this issue.
I'm still rocking the ol' Pioneer Kuro. I've had my eye on those OLED displays. Input lag is just a bit higher than my plasma, though, and I don't like all of the "Smart TV" BS. I just want a damn monitor. Still, those OLED displays are the only thing I've seen that make me want to upgrade again.
Except the increase in rendering requirement to hit 60 from 30 is more like triple rather than double, so cutting it in half won't do enough. Then there are other things.
Please elaborate. Why is it tripled.
thelastword
Banned
People say that, but that depends on what you're pushing at 1080 30fps......so it's much more than an outright rule. The only thing I can say is that if a game is already doing 900p 60fps it's not too far off from getting the resolution bump to 1080p 60fps. Usually on pc, some presets being slid down are more than enough. It's not like I'm calling for 900p 60fps to 2k 60fps. Remember MGSV on XB1, it went from 720p 60fps to 900p 60fps with some tweaks, something similar is required for UC4 mp imo, some tweaks and some toned down assets is more than enough.
I don't think that's necessary, I think that came up simply because DF had never seen a game which sacrificed so much graphical fidelity for 60fps.........
I want to see a Kuro in person so fucking bad.
Well for one it does not work the same way for consoles at times, it can be quite expensive at time, 900P is 40% less pixels than 1080P..that's a sizeable difference. Secondly the case with MGSV is not a good example to use because it was 720P at first because of engine limitation (caused some issues on XB1 etc) rather than it being the actual threshold and the developers squeezing more out of XB1 by optimising since the gap between PS4 and XB1 version was more than what it should have been. But with the release of MGSV:TPP the gap is now the expected 1080p vs 900p where the XB1 version has 40% less pixels thsn the PS4 version....and not surprisongly that's also around the performance difference between PS4's and XB1's GPU.
For instance COD Ghost on PS4 was originally not 1080P but it became 1080P later on, and optimising had little to do with it and it was more like a bug or engine limitation at time, same for AC4.
lukeskymac
Member
That doesn't explain your triple requirement claim. 60fps means frames must be completed on half the time they would at 30fps. Therefore, assuming a game is GPU-bound, you need twice the processing power.
Some really good discussions in this thread. Really curious to know if the light shafts are volumetric or just screen space. Guess we can confirm it in December when the beta hits. Seeing as how Uncharted 3 used volumetric light sources liberally, it should be naturally be refined for this game, but having it in MP is pretty impressive. The GI also seems to be used in MP. Pretty amazing stuff.
The HDR and GI implementations look really good. Very natural. Curious as to what they're doing for them at 60fps in MP and I wonder if they'll be even higher quality in SP.
I'm going to take a ton of .pngs of the beta so we can answer some of these questions. Should be interesting.
I'm very impressed with the gun straps as well. That's something not attempted much that I've wanted to see more often and they look great.
Well that's because that wasn't the question I was answering there.
As for the 60FPS requiring more than double the power, I am sure someone else can explain it better, but it's more to do with the fact that the higher you go the harder it is to increase the framerate further and then you also have the job of sustaining it as we all know sustaining 60FPS can be quite tough as to sustain a 60FPS you need framerate well over 60.
You can think of it as how it becomes progressively harder for a car to gain speed as it becomes faster due to the increase in power requirements because of several factors
It's not necessarily triple but you need to have overhead to maintain the framerate target and the higher you go, the less time there is to complete all the processes, and the easier it is for the game to drop. Simply halving the 30fps load won't do it because you won't have enough overhead to maintain a solid 60.
That's why I'm particularly impressed with this and Battlefront at 900/60. That framerate/res is more taxing than 1080/30 and they're still quite high in fidelity. It also makes me curious to see the how much ND is pushing the visuals in SP.
Yup, the lighting in general looks very impressive, even more so that it doesn't look significantly toned down in multiplayer, which is running at 60FPS. ND really wanted to make the MP look as good as possible.
Dictator93
Member
This may seem tangential, but I just happened to load up metro 2033, and the per-object motionblur reminds me a lot of the one in the UC4 footage we have seen so far.
It even does the same black stencil outline thing:
I wonder if they are technically similar
It even does the same black stencil outline thing:
I wonder if they are technically similar
Oh wow, it does look similar. At E3 it looked closer to the implementation in 2 and 3. I wonder if ND and 4A were doing something similar with it but ND was just using fewer samples before.This may seem tangential, but I just happened to load up metro 2033, and the per-object motionblur reminds me a lot of the one in the UC4 footage we have seen so far.
It even does the same black stencil outline thing:
I wonder if they are technically similar
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Need a gif of dude running with the per-object motion blur on top of it
Dictator93
Member
2033 being from 2010... there could be similarities just due to the time they came out and the techniques developed by that time. Currently redownloading the UC4 e3 footage... now I am curious.
That could be challenging hah