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Digital Foundry: Microsoft gives more CPU power to Xbox One developers
- Thread starter ElTorro
- Start date
In the October XDK this feature was flagged as Beta though so I doubt you can use it in the final game.
dr. apocalipsis
Banned
There is no such a thing like free CPU encoder. To this date, some encoder preparation work have to be done on CPU.
Even way beefier hi-end desktop CPU's can see 10~15% workloads when transcoding video on dedicated logic.
Have the docs on a different computer currently, so...
But if you have it at hand, DF is talking about a timeline and the development of the GPU driver. Feel free to put it in this thread if you found it
Because the encoded data has to be stored or sent over the network. That's why I write "mostly". But that stuff does not require that much CPU reserve, especially when you already have a dedicated chip for network communication. After all, the XBO is doing exactly the same while running a second OS with apps on now less CPU resources. It's also independent if the source stream being 1080p60 since the encoded stream is just 720p30
Because from the get go Kinect was mandatory. I don't see what's confusing here. spencer and Xbox team are systematically paring back as much of the previously mandatory functions around media/Kinect as they can and giving it back to being available for playing games.
Essentially they're working to make the Xbox One more like a PS4 in that it is primarily operating to supporting playing games with other stuff "on the side". Note though that this isn't some free lunch. They're allowing functions to be disabled to do this - so if you are a fan of Kinect and these functions you're going to have to accept some games disabling functions you actually want to use to access the resources. In addition the - current - improvement doesn't allow full access and complicates code operation.
This latest update is basically saying when you're playing games most other stuff is disabled unless I'm reading the info wrong and this is a major change from the OS and operation design at launch.
Of course MS launching with a weaker console due to the media side has been under a lot of presure in this area so its no surprise they're doing this. It's being driven by market results vs PS4.
The PS4 on the other hand at launch was already in better shape in terms of running games as its launch OS and design was already focused on "games first" with media and other functions very much being on the side.
Both consoles would have launched with reserves and MS is also eating into them fast to try and get closer to PS4 operation, something that could result in them getting caught with games that will limit what they can do in future with the OS.
Sony so far as I'm aware haven't' really touched their reserves because they haven't really had to although no doubt they'll be watching with interest. Given the late jump from 4GB to 8GB for them they should have cores/memory reserved for future functions they can chose to release to and it'll be interesting to see if they feel impelled to do so anytime soon.
Anyway the MS moves are welcome because, to be blunt, they reduce chance of Xbox One holding back PS4 titles (multi platform that is) and of course allow developers to produce better games on Xbox. But this does come at a cost in terms of applicability and MS will need to be careful they don't go so all in here they have no maneuvering room in future when they might want some of these reserves back again.
Then it will become even more noisy than it is.
Lone Wolf
Member
Wouldn't that be a huge risk? a full 10% upclock in its current form and casing may cause failure to some units.
But doesn't avoid to some DF author to persist with this phantomatic cpu advantage in the multiplat titles. This thing start to be really annoying now.This is pure misinformation and although I can't say to be a great fan of DF even in the past generation, they literally dropped the balls too much for my tastes in this generation.
Yeah, won't happen. If that would be possible then why not ship the console with higher clocks right from the start? They probably binned the silicon for that clock speed. (The PSP upclock was different and related to battery concerns)
I haven't kept up with all of this, so I'm curious, have they talked about/has there been any leaks regarding the future of the 3-in-1 OS at all? That was always the most curious aspect of Xbone as a whole for me. As far as I recall, the system OS was a slimmed down/derivative of Win8, and now with Win10 in the horizon... Well, I'm curious.
That would mean more heat and the PS4 is already pretty much on the verge of overheating.
No OS level Kinect functions are affected with any of this. This is Kinect functionality that was being provided to devs regardless of whether they wanted to use them or not. Devs are not using them, so they are releasing those resources. MS thought that if they made Kinect functionality standard and always there, devs would be more inclined to use them. It did not turn out that way, lol. Once again, this has no affect on OS level Kinect functionality or even media related functionality. In fact, this should have been there at launch even when Kinect was always in the box. Was a silly assumption on MS' part to assume devs would always want to make use of Kinect stuff.
Have the docs on a different computer currently, so...
But if you have it at hand, DF is talking about a timeline and the development of the GPU driver. Feel free to put it in this thread if you found it
You mean the graphics features in the "What's new" section for each XDK?
Neuromancer
Member
Thanks for cleaning up Y2Kev. It was getting bad in here.
Anyway this is good news for everyone. The better the XBO1 performs, the less likely other platforms will be held back by it.
Anyway this is good news for everyone. The better the XBO1 performs, the less likely other platforms will be held back by it.
Sony don't need to make any hardware adjustments.
In short, yes. But I wouldn't say beta. Things like drivers, firmware, dev tools and APIs are always evolving and maturing throughout a console generation. It was the same for 360/PS3 - just look at the differences between the launch games and the games at the end of the generation.
I forgot about that when i was quoting his post. But, yes. It is 80% max.
dr. apocalipsis
Banned
What the hell are you talking about? 15% overhead on a desktop class CPU just for sending data through network? What is this madness?
XBO has even more dedicated logic for that task than PS4, I have to remind you.
One of these operating systems is based on the Windows NT kernel and will help runs apps such as Netflix, Skype, Youtube, Twitter, etc. The second is dedicated solely to games. The third is the OS is the most important and allows the other two OSes to communicate with each other and it also allows for the fast switching between game mode and app mode. The will give xbox user the benefit of being able to instantly switch between apps.
I don't think much will change with regards to above, just a new W10 base.
But he said exactly that in the post you quoted. Maybe it's relative to the cloud stuff too this upgrade, I just hypotize eh.
My bad read that element wrong then. It does mean that games that use it will automatically lock out ability to use the functions correct? Although given they probably weren't going to use them I guess it's moot.
Pity the acess is variable though - that's not nice from code point of view. I wonder if they shouldn't have picked a fixed amount to free up to make that easier.
The concrete numbers are yours. Can you substantiate them with evidence? Otherwise I feel free to reject them for the time being.
Which? I hope you're not referring to the DMA engines.
Things like "Xbox Go To Netflix" will always be there, even if devs grab these resources. What this removes is the ability for devs to use voice commands. For example, Forza Horizon 2 has an assistant that can be voice activated, things along the lines of "ANNA, find the closest event". If Playground wanted to use the 7th CPU core, they would have to remove this voice assistant.
Fredrik
Member
No kidding mine is one of those noisy ones and almost at original 360 noise level when playing the more demanding (unoptimized?) games, it'll probably melt if they try getting more power out of it. It should be possible to optimize games to decent framerates without these type of changes. Some devs seem to just dump the PC code at high or even ultra settings and expect the consoles to be able to handle it without choking. Why not just bite the bullet and accept that you can't get high PC level visuals with these consoles and scale things down so at least locked 30fps or 60fps is always there and add as many graphical effects as possible but with some head room left to not melt the console when lots of stuff is happening. Evolution patched an amazing visual weather upgrade to Driveclub without a single dropped frame, that's the kind of head room they should go for.
I don't fully understand the comment that 'voice commands won't often be used, so 80% should be available most of the time'
Surely the issue isn't whether the user is saying 'xbox record that' - its also that the kinect is recording all the time to listen for some kind of trigger. At minimum that'd be 'xbox' which might be permanently reserved CPU time, and then the CPU ramps up if it hears that, to decode whatever the user says after that?
So the CPU usage could be spiking relatively often.
Surely the issue isn't whether the user is saying 'xbox record that' - its also that the kinect is recording all the time to listen for some kind of trigger. At minimum that'd be 'xbox' which might be permanently reserved CPU time, and then the CPU ramps up if it hears that, to decode whatever the user says after that?
So the CPU usage could be spiking relatively often.
Why not? The move engines are dedicated HW nonetheless additionally to the audio and video codecs
From the documentation:
"Titles are always guaranteed at least 50% of the core and will have at most 80% of the core. The amount of the core that is available will vary based on what is happening in the system at any point in time. For example, when the system must process commands spoken by the user (e.g "Xbox Go To Friends"), it will take up to 50% of the 7th core. After the processing is done, the amount of the core made available to the title will increase again, up to the maximum of 80%."
open_mouth_
insert_foot_
DMA does not operate on the level of a file system or a network stack, only on a memory block level. For the former, data still has to be routed and partially processed by the OS and thus the CPU. In addition, the PS4 also has traditional DMA engines. Every computer has had them for decades. The XBO engines are distinguished by fixed/function augmentations for texture handling which is irrelevant for our discussion.
Backfoggen
Banned
The CPU in the XB1 never held anything back though. The GPU doesn't really either, devs mostly just scale down resolution.
unapersson
Member
dr. apocalipsis
Banned
Reject whatever you want so it can fit with your logic.
Raptr using AMD VCE recording.
Recording software performance penalty is just a mass delusion now.
XBO have custom encode/decode hardware and DSPs. Not shocking news.
LOL, you have taken this screenshot from a bug/support request complaint about too much CPU consumption.
http://support.raptr.com/support/discussions/topics/5000009839
You are a funny guy.
Dude, we have been talking about them all the time. The PS4 has the same video and audio blocks. Video from AMD, audio from AMD/Tensalica. That's how I started my first post.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
This is great news and MS is really doing a lot to make the system more competitive. I wonder if Sony has any plans for optimizing the platform further. It seems they would have done so by now.
MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
I wonder if Sony will allocate more ram memory for developers
I'm sure they will. Problem is, if we will ever get any information when it happens.
Ps4 was built with off loading cpu task to the gpu in mind. So a upclock is completely unnecessary.
Sony are kinda slow at everything though.
Of course they have too. Why not?
NotSmartEnough
Member
Wonder if DF will start adding in extra scenarios to their analysis for XB1 to cater for the 50%-80% availability of the 7th core?
Will they need to shout 'Xbox snap...' while gathering performance metrics to check for impact? Might reveal some interesting insights into how much of the released reserve is being used.
Will they need to shout 'Xbox snap...' while gathering performance metrics to check for impact? Might reveal some interesting insights into how much of the released reserve is being used.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Anyone made a secret sauce joke yet?
They've completely replaced the GPU profiling tools over the summer and the recent fall update added more controls for GPGPU functions and had more documentation on GPU based physics. Nothing huge and it's mostly intangible stuff for people that aren't directly working with it while the impact of MS' are more understandable to everyone.
I could see them opening up a core relatively soon. The big one will be RAM reserve. There's absolutely no reason for PS4 to have a 3gb reserve. I wouldn't be surprised to see an extra 1.5-2gb of RAM opened up at some point.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Interesting. Let's hope Sony can do something similar. In theory, their OS shouldn't need more CPU power, right?
I don't know, but I'm ready to read more quote like 'thanks to the beefy cpu stuff added to the majestic ms engineers' at the first casual fps advantage related to the minimal cpu scenario. Take note.
DudeWithNoName
Member
I guess there is a benefit to the console being the size of a 1980s VCR after all. Quiet and cool, allowing for overclocks.
They should be able to. I think a pretty popular thought though is that MS has more OS background/experience so they will be able to do it faster.
Doesn't stop PS4 from always having the power advantage though obviously.
TheLegendary
Member
At least the media center focus ensured everything was overdone on cooling so they have plenty of headroom for those over clocks on the cpu (I know this thread in particular is more about the core reserves but the confirmation about the clock rate is new to me). Cpu is still going to be the biggest drain on these consoles since they're already considered vastly underpowered. MS is smart to focus their advantage on CPU.