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[Unknown One]

Sony would get harped on even harder than Microsoft if they tried to pull the same. Two back to back blunders that's why. Persecution complex. I remember when PS3 was harped on for years and Wii and 360 was consistently praised. Funny how situation is reversed at the moment. Wii-U and Xbone is having nothing but bad publicity this time around.

 

[Arulan]

Out of curiosity, how are these benchmarks done? Do you need dev kits for both systems to be able to run software like that?

I believe he is simply referring to the comparisons such as the Digital Foundry Face-Offs. Essentially just comparing the different versions of the game across all available platforms for performance, resolution, graphical features, flaws, etc.

 

[SeventhSon]

Whaaaat?

I know this horse has been beaten quite a bit already, and I'm just a lowly junior, but this post is a special kind of bad. My best translation of the nonsense above, and please correct me if I'm reading it wrong:

I love technology. I love it really complicated. It's more interesting that way. I don't care about the actual objective output of said technology because that's just numbers. I'm more interested in how complicated and difficult to explain it is. I can't explain beyond numbers, and numbers are so big anyway, so nevermind that. It's more of a feeling really, not about the objective application of technology to a given task, but rather "technology" as an abstract idea...and ideally from Microsoft.

If you substitute Sony for Microsoft, it reads like something that could have come from Krazy Ken in 2006.

 

[DSveno]

That post sounds exactly like what people used to say about the Cell.

Why can't MS be like Nintendo?

Nintendo knows they're the weakest and they frankly don't give a shit and let their games do the talking. MS's need to make the Xbox One look superior is just making them come off desperate. They have so many other things they could be talking about like KINECT 2 they're trying to sell.

They have superior hardware for the last 2 generations, so it's kinda hard to swallow the pride to admit that.

I agree that they should just talk about Kinect and try to sell that.

 

[Mr Moose]

This GAF is pro Sony stuff is nonsense. If Sony were doing the same things Microsoft has it would be critical of the things Sony would say. Microsoft messed up from the very beginning, don't be mad at people being sour on the brand, Microsoft has only themselves to blame for the backlash.

Well said, I believe GAF is a community of GAMERS regardless of which platform they support, they would rip the shit out of any misinformation on any of those platforms.

This is what is needed, fuck Edge (is that the mags name? lol I don't read it) and all the others, this is where you get the real gamers input.

 

[Night Angel]

And in case anyone thinks it's all one-way, I'll repost this from the last hardware thread trainwreck:

If you're scared, buy a dog.

Hrnng

Great post. 10/10 did read again.

 

[OmahaG8]

Sony would get harped on even harder than Microsoft if they tried to pull the same. Two back to back blunders that's why. Persecution complex. I remember when PS3 was harped on for years and Wii and 360 was consistently praised. Funny how situation is reversed at the moment. Wii-U and Xbone is having nothing but bad publicity this time around.

Thiiiisss.

Whether I want to believe it or not - I generally feel that GAF (IE - internet) gets it right on these kind of things. Sony deserved the ire before - MS deserves it now. It was earned. Well earned. If anything, GAF is biased towards competent PR and good news.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

They successfully gotten me turned around in the whirlwind of PR double-speak, so please met know if I've got this right:

They originally had a significant allotment of GPU functionality reserved for, basically, the Kinect. This reservation is immutable; even if you're playing a game without the Kinect or didn't want to use the Kinect features, it had to be retained more or less to keep the Kinect warmed up and ready to run.

The realization that no one really cares that much about Kinect has caused them to reconsider this plan, possibly freeing up this processing when playing games that doesn't use Kinect in the future. They aren't squeezing blood from a stone, they're just wasting less resources than they otherwise would be on something that isn't in use. Do I have that right?

I hadn't honestly thought about it before, but does this mean that the deep level of Kinect integration means that a significant number of hardware resources are invariably devoted to the device, regardless of the desires of the user and developers? That would mean that in terms of pure gaming performance, the system's even worse than it looks on paper - because there's an extra 10% off the top currently being paid as "Kinect Tax" that isn't usable for other things?

I suppose it's good they're trying to reverse these decisions to free up those resources, but as someone who doesn't care about the Kinect, I'd kind of rather they weren't going to waste on it to begin with...

"Kinect Tax" is brilliant

 

[Radec]

I've been slogging through too much PR-speak: do you mean "balanced" as in "fair", or "balanced" as in "underpowered"?

Since im not talking about the Xbone, i meant it as" fair".

 

[Biker19]

Ya Bruh!! I got banned FOR A MONTH for "working too hard" when an article came out that was anti xbox one because the writer of said article said the then "always online" thing would prevent him from taking his xbox one to a cabin. I went a bit nuts at that and was banned. That ban assumed I was working for MS, when in reality, NONE of MS' policies bother me or will affect me in the slightest and I wanted to voice that opinion. NOPE!!, can't do that, I'm a shill. GAF is pro SONY, the mods support it, and could it be that some of the advertisers of this site are also pro SONY and the mods are directed to act accordingly? Oh, perish the thought! One of the running jokes about GAF is no one knows why or for what reason you can be banned. A mod having a bad day...BAN. Not politically correct...BAN! Pro MS posts...you get the idea.

Oh, please, this site isn't pro Sony at all. A lot of posters back in 2006 to 2007 or 2008 were against Sony with the PS3. There's no bias here.

This GAF is pro Sony stuff is nonsense. If Sony were doing the same things Microsoft has it would be critical of the things Sony would say. Microsoft messed up from the very beginning, don't be mad at people being sour on the brand, Microsoft has only themselves to blame for the backlash.

Exactly. We just call it as we see it, we're not going to sugarcoat things if a certain company screws up heavily.

 

[LukasTaves]

Well he says in the example used that it would be 8Bytes per pixel for write and 4 for read. so a simple split on the bandwidth he reports as 164gb/s, a quick and dirty tear down of that would show that 164gb/s is comprised of 109.33gb/s Write and 54.66gb/s read. But we know the esram only has an absolute maximum of 109gb/s.

After further maths I get the esram bandwith to be (1024*853)/8 = 109.184 gb/s.

Doing the exact math on the write at 8 bytes per pixel and using their 13.65 GPixel puts us at 109.2gb/s require write bandwidth.

This means the scenario listed is not possible on the xb1. Perhaps Richard should have pointed this out? The technical fellow certainly gives the impression this is doable on xb1, he even says "nearly saturating" which implies there is esram bandwidth spare, despite overshooting the write bandwidth.

You are making a rounding error. The esram is able to provide all the 16 ROPs a 8 byte write per clock. 16 ROPs each writing a pixel per clock means 13,648 gigapixels in a second, all of which composed of 8 bytes, so, 109.184 GB/s or the exact same amount you calculated.

You actually just made a case to Ms balance argument, because as you can see the esram provides just enough bandwidth to each of their ROPs to write to the memory at the same time.

Regarding my final point, It is not what he says but it's how he says it, the difference in absolutes and maybe's are a common theme in his write up.

For instance in the GPU comparison write up where he came to 25% difference, he gave XB1 the benefit of the doubt on memory bandwidth and ROP's. It is the consistency on which he gives Microsoft the benefit of the doubt in these scenarios and yet pushes an article to release regarding the ps4 ram allocation, which is quickly called out by many developers, none of which he spoke to before putting the article out. BTW in the incorrect RAM article there were a lot of things written as absolutes, which were simply not true.[/QUOTE]
I really don't see it. But I really try not to be very judgmental about this. So I guess unless it was really blatant it wouldn't bother me...

 

[BigDug13]

This GAF is pro Sony stuff is nonsense. If Sony were doing the same things Microsoft has it would be critical of the things Sony would say. Microsoft messed up from the very beginning, don't be mad at people being sour on the brand, Microsoft has only themselves to blame for the backlash.

This place was an anti-Sony bloodbath after the $599 PS3 reveal. And continues to be very pro-3DS and mostly anti-Vita. The idea that the entire forum is pro Sony is wrong, but people do pick sides and Sony has done a better job getting people on their side so far for this upcoming generation.

Microsoft did a lot of that themselves, almost pushing people into Sony's waiting arms.

And we absolutely call out BS PR and arrogance from any of the companies. And when supposed unbiased sources like DF and sessler seem to show bias with spin and misinformation, it pisses us off.

 

[LukasTaves]

I want to know what happens to the power gap if Sony magically decides to upclock in year 2 AND reduce GameOS GPU usage? They've made some major milestones on Vita, imagine what could happen with this.

Is there anything keeping Ms from upclocking even further them their own "keep it silent" mantra?

 

[OmahaG8]

This place was an anti-Sony bloodbath after the $599 PS3 reveal. And continues to be very pro-3DS and mostly anti-Vita. The idea that the entire forum is pro Sony is wrong, but people do pick sides and Sony has done a better job getting people on their side so far for this upcoming generation.

Microsoft did a lot of that themselves, almost pushing people into Sony's waiting arms.

And we absolutely call out BS PR and arrogance from any of the companies.

Lest we forget the Giant Enemy Crab wars.

Oh, how many US dollars?

 

[CoG]

This place was very anti-Sony from 2006 up until mid-way into the current gen. Sony earned their knocks and now Microsoft is making the same exact mistakes and deservedly getting the same treatment.

 

[travisbickle]

They are betting they will have 4GB more RAM to compensate the GPU power.

But would that really help from a technical standpoint? or just a point matching exercise?

 

[IN&OUT]

If you're scared, buy a dog.

This great line should replace NeoGAF motto "Believe"

It should be:

NeoGAF
If you're scared, buy a dog

 

[CLEEK]

I'm pretty sure a large part of what is happening is that MS pissed off a lot of folks and pushed them over to another competitor with their reveal and all the mixed messages they are giving. People did not just choose a side for nothing.

How to make friends and influence people, MS style.

• Reveal new console, yet alienate core gaming audience of your new device, by promoting cable TV and apps over videogames.
• Introduce policies that would be massively damaging to consumer rights, prevent people without quality broadband from using your console, and blocking Indies from self publishing content.
• Promote policies and direction with aggressive, patronising PR.
• Mandatory Kinect forces console performance to be significantly less than main competitor, while being significantly more expensive to buy.
• Defend this decision by stating that performance doesn't matter.
• Reverse hated policies, while pushing the PR message that this was your plan all along.
• Yield/production issues reduce volumes available for launch. Address this by alienate markets by referring them to being low tier countries so not worthy of getting the Xbone.
• Do a PR push to claim that the performance of your console is just as good as your competitor. Back this up with sums pulled out of your ass.

Performance differences aside, what has come from MS ever since the Xbone reveal has been nothing short of catastrophic. As we've seen from the senior heads that have rolled, and the fumbling about to find new policies that, you know, might not piss everyone off. Every time there seems to be a glimmer of hope they're making amends, something else comes along that raises the hackles of gamers.

The parallels to pre-PS3 Sony are incredible. The levels of hubris are the same. The horrid PR is the same. But MS trumped Sony with their original DRM/online bullshit which is far harder to forgive than any of the shit that Sony pulled in 2006/7.

Compare this to Sony's message since the reveal of the PS4:

• Reveal new console, focusing solely on videogames.
• State categorically that you would not introduce polices that would restrict consumer right, prevent offline play, or put any barriers in place to developers big or small.
• Promote console with genuine PR, constantly reminding that the console has been built for gamers, and for those that make games.
• Produce console that is significantly more powerful than your competitor, while being significantly cheaper.
• Sit back and what the pre-orders flood in, list of games being made for the console climb, and the comments from devs appreciating the console grow.

If you're scared, buy a dog

What if I'm scared of dogs?

 

[Chobel]

Is there anything keeping Ms from upclocking even further them their own "keep it silent" mantra?

Nothing, but they need to do a lot of testing. And I believe they have already done that, If they could increase more they would have done it.

 

[frizby]

Another thread somebody should start, since my junior ass can't:

Worse launch: PS3 (2006) or Xbone (2013)?

Hey, what could go wrong?

 

[ethomaz]

But would that really help from a technical standpoint? or just a point matching exercise?

In multiplataform games yes like PS3... in exclusives not.

 

[lastflowers]

Another thread somebody should start, since my junior ass can't:

Worse launch: PS3 (2006) or Xbone (2013)?

Hey, what could go wrong?

Good Idea, Bad Idea

 

[IHaveCandy]

Microsoft needs to work better at ditching that shady used-car salesman vibe.

 

[Chobel]

Another thread somebody should start, since my junior ass can't:

Worse launch: PS3 (2006) or Xbone (2013)?

Hey, what could go wrong?

The person who will post it will get juniored if not banned.

 

[ethomaz]

Another thread somebody should start, since my junior ass can't:

Worse launch: PS3 (2006) or Xbone (2013)?

Hey, what could go wrong?

To be fair the PS3 didn't had a bad launch... post launch, I mean the two first years was terrible.

 

[Iacobellis]

How to make friends and influence people, MS style.

• Reveal new console, yet alienate core gaming audience of your new device, by promoting cable TV and apps over videogames.
• Introduce policies that would be massively damaging to consumer rights, prevent people without quality broadband from using your console, and blocking Indies from self publishing content.
• Promote policies and direction with aggressive, patronising PR.
• Mandatory Kinect forces console performance to be significantly less than main competitor, while being significantly more expensive to buy.
• Defend this decision by stating that performance doesn't matter.
• Reverse hated policies, while pushing the PR message that this was your plan all along.
• Do a PR push to claim that the performance of your console is just as good as your competitor. Back this up with sums pulled out of your ass.

Performance differences aside, what has come from MS ever since the Xbone reveal has been nothing short of catastrophes. Every time there seems to be a glimmer of hope they're making amends, something else comes along that raises the hackles of gamers.

The parallels to pre-PS3 Sony are incredible. The levels of hubris are the same. The horrid PR is the same. But MS trumped Sony with their original DRM/online bullshit which is far harder to forgive than any of the shit that Sony pulled in 2006/7.



What if I'm scared of dogs?

You know what else is an incredible parallel? This generation compared to the fifth. Just replace SEGA with Microsoft. You have an expensive console that is a pain to develop for, you have Sony making this extremely simple and powerful console, and then Nintendo is working on a machine that uses older technology, alienating most developers.

Even the E3 announcements were the same. SEGA announced $399 earlier that day, then Sony comes out with the $299 price to an applause. Same as what happened in June.

 

[SoldierGryphon]

This place was an anti-Sony bloodbath after the $599 PS3 reveal. And continues to be very pro-3DS and mostly anti-Vita. The idea that the entire forum is pro Sony is wrong, but people do pick sides and Sony has done a better job getting people on their side so far for this upcoming generation.

Microsoft did a lot of that themselves, almost pushing people into Sony's waiting arms.

And we absolutely call out BS PR and arrogance from any of the companies.

I don't think there is anything more special about gamers here than the gamers out there. Plenty of unnecessary Sony trolling goes on here.

Nowhere is worse than YouTube though. Every single Xbox One video gets its like-status bar tanked by Sony fanboys and its comment section full of trollish blather.

 

[frizby]

The person who will post it will get juniored if not banned.

In case it wasn't clear, I was joking.

 

[grumble]

And in case anyone thinks it's all one-way, I'll repost this from the last hardware thread trainwreck:

Good on you for posting that. Just how I feel.

 

[LukasTaves]

Nothing, but they need to do a lot of testing. And I believe they have already done that, If they could increase more they would have done it.

That was my point: They increased as much as they could to keep their operation volume the same, or something else prevented it?

If it was just their noise requirements, assuming they are shipping already with higher clocks than sony, why wouldn't they also increase further their clocks if they decide to drop that requirement?

 

[frizby]

To be fair the PS3 didn't had a bad launch... post launch, I mean the two first years was terrible.

It was pretty bad:

• Enemy crabs
• Real time weapons switching
• Riiiiidge Racer
• $600
• Get a second job
• Generation starts when we say it does
• Obtuse architecture
• Gabe Newell slamming the plaform
• Hardware shortages
• "PS3 has no games"
• Backwards compatibility in our DNA...nevermind
• I could go on

It was pretty bad, and they didn't really get the PS3 sorted until 2008 or so.

 

[qa_engineer]

In case it wasn't clear, I was joking.

Sure you were, buddy. Sure you were.

 

[artist]

This GAF is pro Sony stuff is nonsense. If Sony were doing the same things Microsoft has it would be critical of the things Sony would say. Microsoft messed up from the very beginning, don't be mad at people being sour on the brand, Microsoft has only themselves to blame for the backlash.

It's a FACT, I was of the same opinion as you until that post.

 

[frizby]

Sure you were, buddy. Sure you were.

I thought the "What could go wrong?" at the end would give it away.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Another thread somebody should start, since my junior ass can't:

Worse launch: PS3 (2006) or Xbone (2013)?

Hey, what could go wrong?

I think this thread is premature. Lets wait till at least 2014 to look at it.


One thing I will say is that 2013 is tracking to be the worst year on record for Xbox as a brand, at least from a PR point of view.

 

[chadskin]

It was pretty bad, and they didn't really get the PS3 sorted until 2008 or so.

I think the turnaround really was the change of tone after the PSN hack. And PlayStation Plus.

 

[Biker19]

It's a FACT, I was of the same opinion as you until that post.

Wrong, buddy, wrong. This site was "Pro Microsoft" since 2006 thanks to Sony's screw-ups with the PS3, but dwindled since around 2010 when E3 2010 came & Microsoft was heavily concentrating on Kinect year after year over core games. It got even worse for them when the DRM (or draconian) policies came out along with a $500 price tag & giving more focus on multimedia features as well as "TV, TV, TV" over games.

If any company does anything stupid, they should be expected to get called out on it. Plain & simple. People will forgive companies if they started doing things right while not making themselves look foolish through constant bad PR, just like people did with Sony on PS3. Microsoft, however, may be turning around on their DRM policies, but their constant bad PR & their talk of downplaying the PS4's architecture just makes things look worse for MS, not good. That's why people like myself are still against MS.

 

[Chobel]

That was my point: They increased as much as they could to keep their operation volume the same, or something else prevented it?

If it was just their noise requirements, assuming they are shipping already with higher clocks than sony, why wouldn't they also increase further their clocks if they decide to drop that requirement?

I think that they increased as much as they could, 53GHZ is so specific. We know that Xbox One is silent with the upclock, so MS could have increased GPU frequency to 866GHZ and it would have stayed almost silent, but they didn't. So I'm inclined to believe that 53 increase was their best shot.

I could be wrong though and now they're testing other frequencies, only time could tell.

 

[Ebomb]

You know what else is an incredible parallel? This generation compared to the fifth. Just replace SEGA with Microsoft. You have an expensive console that is a pain to develop for, you have Sony making this extremely simple and powerful console, and then Nintendo is working on a machine that uses older technology, alienating most developers.

Just because the PS4 is by all accounts easy to develop for does not mean the xbox one is a pain. The eSRAM is not some foreign concept to developers, xbox 360 had a similar memory structure. Once MS developer tools fully mature, im not expecting painful development process, but others may know more than me on this front. Nonetheless, this is nothing like a PS3 situation or a SEGA situation in my opinion.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

This GAF is pro Sony stuff is nonsense. If Sony were doing the same things Microsoft has it would be critical of the things Sony would say. Microsoft messed up from the very beginning, don't be mad at people being sour on the brand, Microsoft has only themselves to blame for the backlash.

This is the truth. I was prepared to switch to microsoft this upcoming gen based on their previous track record. That was until they massively screwed up with the always online drm, relatively weak hardware, etc. If MS and Sony were flip-flopped with their current situation, I would go for the MS console hands down. I think that goes for most of us here.

 

[ThisWreckage]

Every time I read an article such as this it comes across as a desperate plea that screams, "Little by little we're catching up! The gulf in power is shrinking." I then laugh. Anyone that knows anything about hardware has declared the hardware winner long ago.

 

[CLEEK]

I think the turnaround really was the change of tone after the PSN hack. And PlayStation Plus.

And that the console had been out long enough that devs had finally gotten their heads around the complicated architecture. So for the most part, multi-plats were on an equal footing (games like Skyrim aside).

 

[Surface of Me]

This GAF is pro Sony stuff is nonsense. If Sony were doing the same things Microsoft has it would be critical of the things Sony would say. Microsoft messed up from the very beginning, don't be mad at people being sour on the brand, Microsoft has only themselves to blame for the backlash.

GAF has been called out on having a Sony bias since before the console reveals, it was true then and I'll just leave it at that.

 

[lastflowers]

And in case anyone thinks it's all one-way, I'll repost this from the last hardware thread trainwreck:

despite the wreck, the collisions just keep happening!

 

[artist]

Wrong, buddy, wrong. This site was "Pro Microsoft" since 2006 thanks to Sony's screw-ups with the PS3, but dwindled since around 2010 when E3 2010 came & Microsoft was heavily concentrating on Kinect year after year over core games. It got even worse for them when the DRM (or draconian) policies came out along with a $500 price tag & giving more focus on multimedia features as well as "TV, TV, TV" over games.

If any companies does anything stupid, they should be expected to get called out on it. Plain & simple. People will forgive companies if they started doing things very correct while not constantly making yourself look foolish through bad PR, just like people did with Sony on PS3. Microsoft, however, may be turning around on their DRM policies, but their constant bad PR & their talk of downplaying the PS4's architecture just makes things look worse for MS than looking good.

I was being sarcastic there, if you read the thread I linked to, I dont think GAF is biased. What MS/Sony has earned, they have done it themselves and some people who "forget" easily think they/MS are being persecuted.

I think that they increased as much as they could, 53GHZ is so specific. We know that Xbox One is silent with the upclock, so MS could have increased GPU frequency to 866GHZ and it will have stayed almost silent, but they didn't. So I'm inclined to believe that 53 increase was their best shot.

I could be wrong though and now they're testing other frequencies, only time could tell.

There are two budgets, yields and or TDP that probably limited how much they could upclock.

 

[KidBeta]

Just because the PS4 is by all accounts easy to develop for does not mean the xbox one is a pain. The eSRAM is not some foreign concept to developers, xbox 360 had a similar memory structure. Once MS developer tools fully mature, im not expecting painful development process, but others may know more than me on this front. Nonetheless, this is nothing like a PS3 situation or a SEGA situation in my opinion.

The eSRAM on the XBONE is completely programmer managed, the eDRAM on the 360 was not.

 

[Ebomb]

The eSRAM on the XBONE is completely programmer managed, the eDRAM on the 360 was not.

Which im assuming Microsoft will release mature dev tools that support the common/intended use of that pool such as for a frame buffer, etc.

 

[Biker19]

I was being sarcastic there, if you read the thread I linked to, I dont think GAF is biased. What MS/Sony has earned, they have done it themselves and some people who "forget" easily think they/MS are being persecuted.

I didn't know you were. My bad, then.

 

[chadskin]

And that the console had been out long enough that devs had finally gotten their heads around the complicated architecture. So for the most part, multi-plats were on an equal footing (games like Skyrim aside).

Ha, I was about to scream Skyrim. But yeah, that surely helped them, too.

 

[ThisWreckage]

GAF is pro Sony? What a load of shit. People have short memories here. Do any of you remember the "PS3 has no games" meme? Or the chalkboard meme? Or 599 US dollars? Or Lair or Haze trolling? The list goes on and on.

Microsoft has found itself in a terrible situation because of their arrogance. Don't blame GAF for exercising common sense.