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[Omegasquash]

Because we're supposed to hate wealthy people.

The presumption is that much of that came from NY taxpayers, not that we're supposed to hate wealthy people. How much of that $10m is from his salary is left out...I would gather conveniently. At least, that's how I see it.

 

[JGS]

All of this is a fairly reasonable reaction, but I do have an issue with the salary considering his circumstance. He was originally hired, presumably, as a teacher. He's not in that role at present. Like I said, I could understand him riding a desk for a couple years, but after that? If your employment circumstances have changed where you haven't taught students in, say, 2 years, that should be sufficient to void tenure, but if not, it should cause a reconsideration of your salary to better reflect the parameters of your employment.

Dude - Fair enough, although I'm still not clear why other school districts don't seem to have these issues if that is the case.

This is the part I'm trying to come to grips with. The only reason he isn't teaching now is because they are scared of him teaching which is understandable. However, he's still facing a guilty until innocent response when they really should just go ahead and let them teach. He will retire or croak soon after anyway and the school can keep tabs on him.

This is like Guantanamo.

 

[Guevara]

Oh cool a stock "teachers are paid too much, amirite?" article.

 

[BertramCooper]

Cue people turning this into a tirade against teachers in general

While this case is an extreme example - and one unique to the NYC school system - you can hardly blame people for becoming increasingly critical of the status quo in education.

 

[Gaborn]

This is the part I'm trying to come to grips with. The only reason he isn't teaching now is because they are scared of him teaching which is understandable. However, he's still facing a guilty until innocent response when they really should just go ahead and let them teach. He will retire or croak soon after anyway and the school can keep tabs on him.

This is like Guantanamo.

That is the second most inappropriate comparison you could have possibly made. And no, they shouldn't let him teach if they believe he's a danger to students.

Oh cool a stock "teachers are paid too much, amirite?" article.

TEACHERS are not. This guy being paid to do nothing for 10 years? Yeah, he could take a bit of a pay cut.

 

[(._.)]

He could be trying to take revenge on the system for shunning him. He was never proven guilty. Who knows? He looks like a pervert in the op X(

 

[Arrowgigantic]

You're in charge of the NY school system. Do you approve him for teaching again?

Yeah. I think if you want to ruin someone's career, you should actually have proof. Maybe classrooms and students should be better equipped to provide that proof, instead of just going with an easily exploitable system where a kid can ruin someone's life just by claiming he's a perv.

Kids can sometimes be a little too insulated from life and the consequences of their actions at that age to hold the fate of someone who is often seen as an adversary in their hands.

 

[Dakar]

If your employment circumstances have changed where you haven't taught students in, say, 2 years, that should be sufficient to void tenure, but if not, it should cause a reconsideration of your salary to better reflect the parameters of your employment.

Of course that opens the door to the opposite exploitation – where a school board purposely buries someone somewhere outside a classroom for two years so they can void their tenure.

To me it looks like they need a way to at least forcibly retire someone. This guy may be an unproven scumbag, but its ludicrous. It may not be much better but being forced out of the classroom and into collecting a smaller pension seems more reasonable to me.

 

[Omegasquash]

Wait wait, let's back up here. He's a....typing teacher? TYPING?

Sure not everyone has access to a computer, but in this day and age isn't typing something you teach yourself at, what...6?

 

[Gaborn]

Yeah. I think if you want to ruin someone's career, you should actually have proof. Maybe classrooms and students should be better equipped to provide that proof, instead of just going with an easily exploitable system where a kid can ruin someone's life just by claiming he's a perv.

Kids can sometimes be a little too insulated from life and the consequences of their actions at that age to hold the fate of someone who is often seen as an adversary in their hands.

I'm sorry, but it's hard to have sympathy for a man's "ruined" career when he's making $100k a year. He is a risk to students and it's not worth exposing them to a potential predator. Kids have to come first in this circumstance.

Dakar - It could happen I suppose, but I think it's considerably less likely they'd be willing to pay a good teacher for 2 years to do nothing just so they can get a younger person in place.

 

[JGS]

That is the second most inappropriate comparison you could have possibly made. And no, they shouldn't let him teach if they believe he's a danger to students.

Why? I wasn't meaning that in the sense of torture if that's what youre' upset about.

Otherwise, they have him in a limbo while they can't come close to figuring out guilt or innocence.

 

[Stumpokapow]

All of this is a fairly reasonable reaction, but I do have an issue with the salary considering his circumstance. He was originally hired, presumably, as a teacher. He's not in that role at present. Like I said, I could understand him riding a desk for a couple years, but after that? If your employment circumstances have changed where you haven't taught students in, say, 2 years, that should be sufficient to void tenure, but if not, it should cause a reconsideration of your salary to better reflect the parameters of your employment.

I don't have an answer for this, except that I think there are three options, and all of them have distinct downsides:

1) Be allowed to do his job; Downside: Potentially guilty man is a risk to students
2) Be fired; Downside: Potentially innocent man is punished despite not being guilty
3) Be stuck in limbo; Downside: Paid to do nothing.

I don't agree with firing a person because he is not permitted to do his job. I don't agree with lowering the salary of a person because he is not permitted to do his job. I understand why you're proposing it; if he's not doing a teacher's job, he shouldn't get a teacher's salary, but ultimately this is a system designed specifically to circumvent problems with either removing him or letting him doing his job.

This isn't a good thing, but it's a better thing than the other two possibilities as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Trokil]

While this case is an extreme example - and one unique to the NYC school system - you can hardly blame people for becoming increasingly critical of the status quo in education.

That's a different topic. The school system is a different problem in the US, actually world wide.

The problem, the asian countries with the discipline system are quite high in the rankings (also in the juvenile suicide rankings), but on top usually it's countries like Norway or Finland, where they are also spending the biggest amount of money for education.

 

[Gaborn]

I don't have an answer for this, except that I think there are three options, and all of them have distinct downsides:

1) Be allowed to do his job; Downside: Potentially guilty man is a risk to students
2) Be fired; Downside: Potentially innocent man is punished despite not being guilty
3) Be stuck in limbo; Downside: Paid to do nothing.

I don't agree with firing a person because he is not permitted to do his job. I don't agree with lowering the salary of a person because he is not permitted to do his job. I understand why you're proposing it; if he's not doing a teacher's job, he shouldn't get a teacher's salary, but ultimately this is a system designed specifically to circumvent problems with either removing him or letting him doing his job.

This isn't a good thing, but it's a better thing than the other two possibilities as far as I'm concerned.

If that is the case then let me propose a 4th option: Require teachers in limbo to be night janitors, that keeps them away from kids and it actually puts them to a productive use that sticking them behind a desk does not do. I'm sorry, 10 years at full salary for doing nothing is unacceptable. If they can't teach and they still want to be employed give them something substantive but still harmless to kids.

 

[Dice]

Maybe this is too radical and mindblowing of a concept, but what if they... gave him an assistant. That way the money for his salary isn't wasted, someone is keeping an eye on him, that person is also getting trained (they can cycle out one per year or something), and the kids are getting a better education because someone could help kids on the spot without interrupting the class. I know, the idea of ensuring justice and also a better education for our children is completely outrageous, but it's just a thought.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Wait wait, let's back up here. He's a....typing teacher? TYPING?

Sure not everyone has access to a computer, but in this day and age isn't typing something you teach yourself at, what...6?

I was a really shitty typist until I took a mandatory computer class in grade 9 of high school. I went from typing 20 - 30 wpm to 120 wpm with ease, so I actually think typing teachers are still relatively important. There were typing games we used in elementary school, but nothing substitutes going through methodical drills in which the teacher yells out the letters you are supposed to type without looking at the keyboard. It quickly trains your muscle memory. No healthy person should type below 80 wpm if they have been properly trained in typing, yet many people I know, many of whom are always connected to a computer, phone, or game, are lousy typers. It is an enormously practical life skill.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

If that is the case then let me propose a 4th option: Require teachers in limbo to be night janitors, that keeps them away from kids and it actually puts them to a productive use that sticking them behind a desk does not do. I'm sorry, 10 years at full salary for doing nothing is unacceptable. If they can't teach and they still want to be employed give them something substantive but still harmless to kids.

You're still engaging in punitive behavior against teachers who have had no wrong doing proven against them.

You really can't just leapfrog the need to prove allegations just because its really inconvenient.

 

[Dakar]

Dakar - It could happen I suppose, but I think it's considerably less likely they'd be willing to pay a good teacher for 2 years to do nothing just so they can get a younger person in place.

I was thinking more with someone whom they disagree with either in views or method (Or perhaps pissed off parents). Isn't that part of the idea behind tenure?

 

[JGS]

Just put cameras in all the classrooms (Pr at least the creeper ones). Protects the teachers and the students.

 

[Trokil]

Maybe this is too radical and mindblowing of a concept, but what if they... gave him an assistant. That way the money for his salary isn't wasted, someone is keeping an eye on him, that person is also getting trained (they can cycle out one per year or something), and the kids are getting a better education because someone could help kids on the spot without interrupting the class. I know, the idea of ensuring justice and also a better education for our children is completely outrageous, but it's just a thought.

Well having creative solutions in a system against creative solutions is always a problem.

I work as a teacher here in Switzerland, we have quite a good system, but even our system would have problems with people like him. Of course there are solutions, but the education system in general is neither very creative nor very agile.

 

[jstevenson]

Nothing against teachers, my wife is a teacher.

But the teachers unions must be broken. It's the biggest obstacle to true education reform in this country, and they have outlived their usefulness, while entrenching protections and values that no other worker has.

If you can't fire / stop paying a teacher for being a danger to children, then how in god's name can you fire a teacher for bad performance?!

And this is not just an issue in NYC, but in California and in many other school districts

 

[tokkun]

All of this is a fairly reasonable reaction, but I do have an issue with the salary considering his circumstance. He was originally hired, presumably, as a teacher. He's not in that role at present. Like I said, I could understand him riding a desk for a couple years, but after that? If your employment circumstances have changed where you haven't taught students in, say, 2 years, that should be sufficient to void tenure, but if not, it should cause a reconsideration of your salary to better reflect the parameters of your employment.

He is not teaching because the Department of Education does not want him to teach and reassigned him. Your argument would make sense if he had chosen this.

If the administration can force you not to teach based on unproven charges then void your tenure after 2 years for not teaching the tenure system really offers no protection.

 

[Count Dookkake]

That Xerox line is legendary trolling.

 

[Gaborn]

You're still engaging in punitive behavior against teachers who have had no wrong doing proven against them.

You really can't just leapfrog the need to prove allegations just because its really inconvenient.

Because I understand the process for firing a teacher in these circumstances can be extremely convoluted and costly. It's not a simple thing, it's easier in many ways to impeach a politician than it is to fire a teacher.

For example, in Chicago:

And NY is even worse and more convoluted. And yes, I realize that's for a bad teacher, not a teacher accused of something like this teacher.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

I'm sorry, but it's hard to have sympathy for a man's "ruined" career when he's making $100k a year.

No, no, no. His career isn't ruined. Firing him, which is what you want to do, would ruin his career.

 

[Gaborn]

No, no, no. His career isn't ruined. Firing him, which is what you want to do, would ruin his career.

He's 66, exactly how much of his career is going to be ruined?

 

[entremet]

Man, pocketing 100k, having summer off, and great pension and benefits for teaching typing?!

SHHEEEIITTT.

 

[JzeroT1437]

Knew it would be New York.

Obligatory Rubber Room reference:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08/31/090831fa_fact_brill

 

[Arrowgigantic]

He's 66, exactly how much of his career is going to be ruined?

You wanted to fire him back when he was 58 or 59, though. And this isn't just about him, it's about any teacher that gets accused.

You're making some really poor arguments, you know.

 

[Skeyser]

Is it common for HS teachers in the US to make over 100k a year?

 

[Gaborn]

You wanted to fire him back when he was 58 or 59, though. And this isn't just about him, it's about any teacher that gets accused.

You're making some really poor arguments, you know.

Because you're bringing up ridiculous points. I want to fire him because he's not able to do his job. Now, if some other school district wants to take up that liability? Great. Let them, and have them deal with the risk associated with him.

And just to clarify, I have no problem with ruining a person if I believe, as NYC apparently does, that they're a danger to students.

 

[BertramCooper]

Is it common for HS teachers in the US to make over 100k a year?

It's not totally uncommon, but it wouldn't be considered average by any means.

That said, we're talking about NYC, which has an insanely high cost of living, and therefore, much higher than normal salaries across all professions.

 

[Evlar]

Is it common for HS teachers in the US to make over 100k a year?

No.

EDIT: According to this, the median annual wage is $53,230 and the 90% threshold is $83,230.

EDIT EDIT: And according to this, the median annual wage for secondary school teachers in the New York metro area is $70,000.

 

[Vilix]

Is it common for HS teachers in the US to make over 100k a year?

In NYC, or San Fransisco, this would be equivulent (sp) to around $30,000.

 

[Zoe]

No.

EDIT: According to this, the median annual wage is $53,230 and the 90% threshold is $83,230.

Years of service is a big factor in educational wages though. I think it'd be more useful to see those side by side.

 

[Omegasquash]

I was a really shitty typist until I took a mandatory computer class in grade 9 of high school. I went from typing 20 - 30 wpm to 120 wpm with ease, so I actually think typing teachers are still relatively important. There were typing games we used in elementary school, but nothing substitutes going through methodical drills in which the teacher yells out the letters you are supposed to type without looking at the keyboard. It quickly trains your muscle memory. No healthy person should type below 80 wpm if they have been properly trained in typing, yet many people I know, many of whom are always connected to a computer, phone, or game, are lousy typers. It is an enormously practical life skill.

To each their own, for sure. Though it sounds like something out of boot camp, having a teacher yell. Software for me, but again, to each their own.

 

[Sky Chief]

Good thing the teacher's unions are looking out for the kids.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

I have no problem with ruining a person if I believe, as NYC apparently does, that they're a danger to students.

Proof not required? As long as the accusation is plausible, bye bye teacher? Or does it even need to be plausible? Can we fire teachers for witchcraft?

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

I recently watched Waiting for Superman and the fact so many teachers were just unable to be fired is amazing to me.

 

[mr_nothin]

Good for him

 

[El Sloth]

I immediately knew he works in NYC. Teachers union is like the damn mafia.

Same. I knew it would just be another rubber room horror story. DOE bullshit deserves blame too.

 

[Gaborn]

Proof not required? As long as the accusation is plausible, bye bye teacher? Or does it even need to be plausible? Can we fire teachers for witchcraft?

Define "proof." In a lot of these cases you have to go to extraordinary lengths documenting things. There is a reason the UTF delays hearings as long as possible.

 

[AndyD]

DOE bullshit deserves blame too.

This. This guy is doing nothing wrong per se. If anything it should teach the DOE to not make stupid contracts in the future.

If they have proof, kick him out. If they don't, put him back in the classroom and make him earn his money. And being a veteran teacher, give him additional responsibilities, he will resign quickly once you pile on the work responsibilities. Unless that's also against the contract, in which case, DOE is even more stupid.

 

[jstevenson]

This. This guy is doing nothing wrong per se. If anything it should teach the DOE to not make stupid contracts in the future.

If they have proof, kick him out. If they don't, put him back in the classroom and make him earn his money. And being a veteran teacher, give him additional responsibilities, he will resign quickly once you pile on the work responsibilities. Unless that's also against the contract, in which case, DOE is even more stupid.

While you can blame DOE, you also must recognize the immense about of political power and pressure that the teacher's unions bring. They funnel a lot of the money right back into politics and exerting their power to get politicians elected, who then owe them, and approve ridiculous things "for the children."

It's a totally corrupt system to begin with - and is made worse when the politicians that the unions support are actually in power/control.

 

[dojokun]

Joke posters gonna joke








Etc

I'm sure that at one point in our society, people said women would be allowed to vote and wear outfits that reveal their legs, and people called them jokesters.

 

[Sickboy007]

If he wanted, he could probably sue the hell out of the system for a vastly superior amount of money. I'd say him doing nothing for a teacher's pay is a happy compromise, probably brokered by the union.

 

[Dude Abides]

Define "proof." In a lot of these cases you have to go to extraordinary lengths documenting things. There is a reason the UTF delays hearings as long as possible.

Not really. It's just a hearing. No extraordinary lengths required, just a preponderance of the evidence.

 

[orientalNoodle]

His salary could be used to pay or hire better and more qualified teachers.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I'm sure that at one point in our society, people said women would be allowed to vote and wear outfits that reveal their legs, and people called them jokesters.

Oddly this is only the second worst analogy in this thread.

Can someone give me a concise argument as to why teaching isn't "at will" employment in states like California and New York where a large chunk of jobs fall under that banner? And before anyone jumps down my throat, my gf is a teacher.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Define "proof."

LOL. That's an ambiguous term for you?