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[Glass Rebel]

DmC was a very competent character action game and NT's best game to date. Sadly "very competent" isn't good enough for Devil May Cry. I'd take another DmC2 but it would have to be significantly better for me to get excited and I'd take an Itsuno directed DMC5 or something made by Platinum over DmC2 any day of the week.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The problem with wasting time on animating frames of a move that won't get used or seen is that that effort is best spent on making an entirely new move or improving the core of other moves. Like for example instead of having an elaborate recovery animation of a sword swing (that most people will never see) they should've spend that time making an actual Taunt for Dante which would add more game play depth.

The frame count argument applied to moves/frames that couldn't be canceled. Stuff like Magma Drive from Ifrit (or in DmC's case many of Arbiter moves). Basically the move can't be canceled until a certain frame of its recovery, after that Dante just snaps into place normally. At this frame you can start moving again meaning even here you won't get to see Dante snap into place.

These games are twitch based combat games and they have always been like this since DMC1. Superfluous animations just get in the way of that and divert attention/resources from the real core of the combat..

So by your logic something as simple as a full animation cycle instead of the character snapping back into place is detrimental to the game's design?

 

[paolo11]

My post isn't inane at all. You got a different opinion, so be it. But thats all these posts are....OPINIONS. I stand by mine.


DmC ftw.

I remember that fight. Shocking I tell you.

There is nothing wrong in stating your opinion, my friend.

 

[Infinite Justice]

I didn't get the impression that he was attacking people here. He just said there are a lot of butthurt classic DMC fans out there and although it could be calling out it does hold some merit judging by the insane meltdowns when this baby was announced.

Ninja Theory being the developer also drew hate.

Yet he's concentrating on the "Dante's Look" bullshit which stopped being an issue sometime before and after the game came out.

It seemed like another potshot that rubbed the thread in a wrong way especially when the thread was discussing about true issues like the combat, story and as of lately animations.


That Bayonetta sentence is a another fucking can of worms but that's left for another day..

 

[Dahbomb]

So by your logic something as simple as a full animation cycle instead of the character snapping back into place is detrimental to the game's design?

It depends upon the game type and the move type among other factors.

To me DmC's characters completing their animation cycle vs DMC3 characters snapping into place is a moot point and something I don't really consider when comparing their combat or even their animation where it matters in the game play.

It's only detrimental in that it takes away time from animating other new moves. In an ideal world I wouldn't have a problem with these animations but in a situation where time and budget are tightly controlled you can't put time into stuff that really doesn't impact the core of the game (which in the case of DMC is the combat).

Now of course I would not say this for a Dark Souls game or even an Assassin's Creed game. They aren't twitch based games so you can't cut down recovery frames by canceling so you HAVE to see the recovery frames of moves and thus they have to be animated properly.

 

[SixMachine]

Attention to detail is not 100% irrelevant. It adds to the theme that the game is going for. I like attention to detail, it inspires me to see little things like that that some people may never see. And it just shows the dedication that the animators put into their characters. And there's nothing wrong it that. And like you said, they can be cancelled out so the "oh it's harder to count the frames argument" is invalid. Very few movements and gestures in DmC factually can't be cancelled in any way shape or form. Vergil kneeling down and leaning back up after making a hard landing or putting his sword back in his sheath behind his back are not one of them. Pretty sure that Capcom in this day and age would put in those extra animations instead of making them snap back, especially if they were to make DMC5. Dragon's Dogma has tons of attention to detail in it's animation and that was made by Itsuno and his team.

Dragon's Dogma also has animation canceling. Even though you can play out a moves animation, most players are going to cancel it because it helps both offense/defense/mobility. Not only that but there is an explicit skill Instant Reset that does exactly what it says, it snaps the player back into neutral position so they can instantly act again. You can also use it to recover from hitstun.

Likewise games like Monster Hunter and Dark Souls have deliberate animations that take some time. This is a gameplay balancing issue so that the player has to think ahead of time and less of a reactionary act (like the ones in DMC). So when you drink a position and they go through that rather long motion (and even arm pumps in MH), it's so you have to think it through before doing it.

I would prefer a game to have it's animation with gameplay in mind rather than superfluous details like a slight stumble to make it seem more realistic. Especially so in games where animation canceling is common, because the player won't see it as much and it can be a hindrance on gameplay flow. But if you have best of both worlds, might as well go for it.

And to stay on topic, I would like Itsuno (after he is done working on what he wants.) to work on a new DMC or Platinum games. They have the right gameplay feel.

 

[sleepykyo]

DmC is capable of running at up to 240fps, it's incredibly optimized on pc. If the 360 and ps3 were more powerful than i'm sure that DmC would've had both the epic environments and 60fps on consoles. You were talking out of your ass by saying things like "man I never know how tough the gameplay designers had it, always having to work around a lower framerate with animation being a higher priority."

What prevents NT from doing the same trade off this gen? Heck Namco got a game that ran at 1080p and 60fps on the PS3, it just had to look like Tekken 5 DR. There is nothing that prevented Ninja Theory from making it 60fps other than it would have looked like garbage. I would have thought the whole developers targeting 60fps with stronger hardware myth would have died off by now.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It depends upon the game type and the move type among other factors.

To me DmC's characters completing their animation cycle vs DMC3 characters snapping into place is a moot point and something I don't really consider when comparing their combat or even their animation where it matters in the game play.

It's only detrimental in that it takes away time from animating other new moves. In an ideal world I wouldn't have a problem with these animations but in a situation where time and budget are tightly controlled you can't put time into stuff that really doesn't impact the core of the game (which in the case of DMC is the combat).

Now of course I would not say this for a Dark Souls game or even an Assassin's Creed game. They aren't twitch based games so you can't cut down recovery frames by canceling so you HAVE to see the recovery frames of moves and thus they have to be animated properly.

To me, when comparing animation quality, DmC characters having complex cycles and their own little nuances adds to the theme and the idea that when i'm playing as Dante, i'm playing as a brutal unrefined rebellious youth compared to playing as Vergil, who has the tendency to show off and considers himself superior. It doesn't take away anything from the overall design and you have absolutely no idea whether or not it took away time from animating new moves. I own the artbook, the stuff that they did cut actually would've resulted in a worse game besides the standard enemy designs that weren't overall good for gameplay. DmC didn't receive budget cuts,and it's certainly a complete game. I wouldn't go around with the notion putting attention into the detail and making the characters feel different took away from the game while saying that a game that has two two hours of cutscenes but makes you backtrack throughout the entire game and fight the same bosses not once, not twice, but three different times is the better product.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Dragon's Dogma also has animation canceling. Even though you can play out a moves animation, most players are going to cancel it because it helps both offense/defense/mobility. Not only that but there is an explicit skill Instant Reset that does exactly what it says, it snaps the player back into neutral position so they can instantly act again. You can also use it to recover from hitstun.

DmC has all of that, why are people suddenly forgetting that DmC's animations and moves can be cancelled instantly in multiple different ways when trying to say that suddenly attention to detail in games is bad?

What prevents NT from doing the same trade off this gen? Heck Namco got a game that ran at 1080p and 60fps on the PS3, it just had to look like Tekken 5 DR. There is nothing that prevented Ninja Theory from making it 60fps other than it would have looked like garbage. I would have thought the whole developers targeting 60fps with stronger hardware myth would have died off by now.

New console gen=better hardware. Pretty sure a next gen hack and slash game would made by any company would be targeting 60fps on consoles. At least they better be targeting 60fps gameplay. I'd be pissed if a DmC game on next gen hardware wasn't 60fps.

 

[shattyboombatty]

I must admit. I came in ready to despise DmC because of all the negativity the game had gotten for changing Dante around, but ending up loving the game. The level design was superb, and the combat was really well done. The game was what I had wanted; a reboot of the series that it desperately needed.

I felt the same way. I hope we get another.

 

[Schweinehund]

I must admit. I came in ready to despise DmC because of all the negativity the game had gotten for changing Dante around, but ending up loving the game.

Its so annoying to have people write off games completely without having trying, but good on you for playing the game.

I liked DMC 3, didn't care much for DMC4, and thought DmC was surprisingly good. I wouldn't mind them continuing to work on it, but I've never been a huge fan of the series overall, so I'm pretty ambivalent about it. I don't know much about capcom's inner workings or the team behind DMC3, but if they aren't able to make DMC5, then I'd say let ninja theory have it.

edit: I should probably also mention I played the pc version of DmC and ran it at 60 fps so I can't judge by console comparisons.

 

[W.S.]

People that liked DmC tend to be people that weren't fans of the original Devil May Cry games. NT is a more style over substance developer while the original Devil May Cry games have a huge amount of depth gameplay wise.

I guess Capcom wanted to broaden the appeal of the series with DmC but it backfired on them. It sold worst than the other in the series.

Eh I think that's casting a wide net on Devil May Cry fans.

I personally loved the previous DMC games (2 not so much) and initially hated the direction NT were taking the game based on older footage and concept art. However as I saw more of the game I opened up to it more and actually ended up really enjoying it. The combat was certainly clunkier compared to previous entries but a refined sequel has a lot of potential if they improve the combat system, bring back lock on, and have better weapon toggling.

Story wise it was a good remix of DMC 1 & 3 so it hit all the main points it needed to and I honestly think it had more emotional resonance compared to what DMC3 had established. While I'll never agree with the notion that the series needed a reboot considering DMC4 had introduced a new cast of characters and settings, I'm pretty much open to sequels of either version of DMC given how both left off at interesting points.

 

[Stallion Dan]

All this strawmanning about the design of Dante. Holy crap, the fans of the original have gotten over it once the game has come out. Next to no one cares about it, for some reason the fans of NT's game feel like this is the most crucial point of the anti-DmC brigade.

There are plenty of examples in this thread of people moaning about his looks, some not complaining about anything else while doing so. This pretending it isn't a big issue (and for many the only one that matters) is the strawman.

The amount of arguments that boil down to "emo Dante sucks" far outweigh any other.

Nearly all other issues are nitpicks, mass exaggerations or personal preferences not being met. Take the 30fps 'issue', if 60fps really mattered to people they wouldn't be gaming on consoles last gen as 99% of games were 30fps. The idea it has an actual major effect on the game is hyperbole. Sure 60fps is better, but that pretty much should be the end of the argument.

 

[Dahbomb]

I wouldn't go around with the notion putting attention into the detail and making the characters feel different took away from the game while saying that a game that has two two hours of cutscenes but makes you backtrack throughout the entire game and fight the same bosses not once, not twice, but three different times is the better product.

You parrot the same thing over and over again from the first page of this thread.

DMC4 is the better action game because:

*It is properly balanced around 60FPS paced game play.
*It has combat mechanics far, far superior to DmC.
*The difficulty in DMC4 is actually legitimate and it actually scales properly going from Son of Sparda to DMD mode.
*The enemy designs and boss designs are far superior to the ones seen in DmC. I would rather fight the bosses in DMC4 10 times than fight some of the bosses in DmC even once.
*The Bloody Palace in DMC4 is also far superior in terms of difficulty curve and challenge.
*It has modes to up the challenge and speed like TDK mode and Turbo mode.


So DmC might have a better campaign and level design but it's completely trumped by DMC4 in the core game play, enemy designs, difficulty, depth and speed.


To me attention to detail that MATTERS in a DMC game is stuff like Taunts that scale with your Style bar. Nero has a taunt for each Style level that really brings out his personality. Same for Dante. Or the precise timing required to achieve stuff like Max Act charges. Or stuff like different animations for Devil Bringer depending on if you Devil Triggered or not or if you DB'd them in the air (so you can have up to 4+ animations of Devil Bringer on one enemy or boss).

Repeated boss fights isn't really something new to the series. You fought bosses three times in DMC1 (4 times if you include them in the Nightmare battle as well). You fought bosses twice in DMC3, 4 times if you include the Vergil campaign. These games are built for replayability anyway... by the time you finish DMD and finish SS ranking the missions you would've fought the bosses dozens of times. A DMC's worth isn't judged by how the game holds up on its first walk through but how it holds up in multiple walk through over hundreds of hours of game play. And for that matter DMC4 holds up way better than DmC does.


Attention to detail isn't "bad" but it's all about resource allocation and focus. I would rather that DmC have focused on making more taunt animations that making some of those recovery animations for example. I don't condone DMC4's backtracking... I am just saying this game is amazing even WITH the back tracking.

 

[Deitus]

New console gen=better hardware. Pretty sure a next gen hack and slash game would made by any company would be targeting 60fps on consoles. At least they better be targeting 60fps gameplay. I'd be pissed if a DmC game on next gen hardware wasn't 60fps.

I agree with you that they would be fools not to target 60 fps, but at the same time, half of the games coming out for PS4 and XBO are locked at 30 fps. They have more power, but ultimately it is up to the developer to decide where to allocate that power, and many devs go for resolution or more graphical effects over framerate.

In a game like this FPS matters more than in other less action focused genres, so you would think it would be a priority. But it is still ultimately a choice a developer has to make, just as it was last gen.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Its so annoying to have people write off games completely without having trying, but good on you for playing the game.

I liked DMC 3, didn't care much for DMC4, and thought DmC was surprisingly good. I wouldn't mind them continuing to work on it, but I've never been a huge fan of the series overall, so I'm pretty ambivalent about it. I don't know much about capcom's inner workings or the team behind DMC3, but if they aren't able to make DMC5, then I'd say let ninja theory have it.

Capcom apparently didn't even have enough funds to create a next gen port of SF4. They aren't that well off financially. I'm not super eager at the possibility of being forced to backtrack yet again because of limited budget.

 

[BadWolf]

Capcom apparently didn't even have enough funds to create a next gen port of SF4. They aren't that well off financially. I'm not super eager at the possibility of being forced to backtrack yet again because of limited budget.

Please tell me you don't actually believe that.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I agree with you that they would be fools not to target 60 fps, but at the same time, half of the games coming out for PS4 and XBO are locked at 30 fps. They have more power, but ultimately it is up to the developer to decide where to allocate that power, and many devs go for resolution or more graphical effects over framerate.

In a game like this FPS matters more than in other less action focused genres, so you would think it would be a priority. But it is still ultimately a choice a developer has to make, just as it was last gen.

Yea but how many hack and slash games have come out for next gen at 30fps though? Think in this situation it's a wait and see situation.

 

[SixMachine]

DmC has all of that, why are people suddenly forgetting that DmC's animations and moves can be cancelled instantly in multiple different ways when trying to say that suddenly attention to detail in games is bad?

New console gen=better hardware. Pretty sure a next gen hack and slash game would made by any company would be targeting 60fps on consoles. At least they better be targeting 60fps gameplay. I'd be pissed if a DmC game on next gen hardware wasn't 60fps.

I know DmC has that, what makes you think I was implying it didn't? I should have highlighted the sentence before what I bolded too because I actually was trying to touch upon that. That the snap back happens more often than not in practical gameplay scenarios in games that have them because the player wants the take advantage of it. Having fluff is good in animation to add to the aesthetic but there is a point that too much makes a hindrance if there is nothing to be done about it like cancelling. One example can be the Lost Planet games (well I only played 1 and 2). They actually have lots of animations but the most annoying one are the ones you get hit or stumble. It makes it annoying to get up because they try to make it more realistic that you stumble. Which puts it at odds with the pace of the game because it can be extremely fast pace using the grappling hook to move and running place to place. If you try the time trials, you have to use the grappling hook but you also have to try to aim it so you don't get the animation where you plant your feet if you want the fastest time. I personally think it is better without the animation in the first place, and you just go straight to the wall and jump off, but what normally happens is you reach the wall, plant your feet for a moment, then jump off.

 

[Nirolak]

Capcom apparently didn't even have enough funds to create a next gen port of SF4. They aren't that well off financially. I'm not super eager at the possibility of being forced to backtrack yet again because of limited budget.

They're fine financially. They have $300 million in cash, only $80 million in debt, and a $130 million trailing twelve month cash flow.

They are just very uninteresting in their old business model anymore, which is why they have basically no console games announced.

 

[direct_quote]

There are plenty of examples in this thread of people moaning about his looks, some not complaining about anything else while doing so. This pretending it isn't a big issue (and for many the only one that matters) is the strawman.

The amount of arguments that boil down to "emo Dante sucks" far outweigh any other.

Nearly all other issues are nitpicks, mass exaggerations or personal preferences not being met. Take the 30fps 'issue', if 60fps really mattered to people they wouldn't be gaming on consoles last gen as 99% of games were 30fps. The idea it has an actual major effect on the game is hyperbole. Sure 60fps is better, but that pretty much should be the end of the argument.

Then why does the argument keep coming up for it all the time in the forums? There's a reason fighting games are 60 fps and because it cuts the input lag down dramatically (not to mention the fluidity). The only other way to do that is through coding wizardy which was seen in need for speed underground and vanquish, which is effort most developers will not put into their games.

 

[yGray]

I really enjoy the characters in DmC moreso than the original series. They all felt empty and hollow in the original. I'm not saying DmC is immaculate in its concepts and characters but I'm feeling the attempt, unlike Capcom's first four.

 

[Infinite Justice]

They're fine financially. They have $300 million in cash, only $80 million in debt, and a $130 million trailing twelve month cash flow.

They are just very uninteresting in their old business model anymore, which is why they have basically no console games announced.

so F2P then?

 

[abadguy]

There are plenty of examples in this thread of people moaning about his looks, some not complaining about anything else while doing so. This pretending it isn't a big issue (and for many the only one that matters) is the strawman.

The amount of arguments that boil down to "emo Dante sucks" far outweigh any other.

Nearly all other issues are nitpicks, mass exaggerations or personal preferences not being met. Take the 30fps 'issue', if 60fps really mattered to people they wouldn't be gaming on consoles last gen as 99% of games were 30fps. The idea it has an actual major effect on the game is hyperbole. Sure 60fps is better, but that pretty much should be the end of the argument.

No they don't.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Please tell me you don't actually believe that.

It's hard to tell considering that it was a tweet from Ono Yoshinori. Always hard to tell considering capcom recently sponsored something yet a week later is now open to buyout so yea it's very hard to tell. Point is, they unfortunately aren't in the best financial state right now.

 

[BadWolf]

It's hard to tell considering that it was a tweet from Ono Yoshinori. Always hard to tell considering capcom recently sponsored something yet a week later is now open to buyout so yea it's very hard to tell. Point is, they unfortunately aren't in the best financial state right now.

That little dude is one of the biggest trolls there is.

And as Nirolak pointed out above with actual numbers, Capcom is fine financially.

 

[Deitus]

There are plenty of examples in this thread of people moaning about his looks, some not complaining about anything else while doing so. This pretending it isn't a big issue (and for many the only one that matters) is the strawman.

The amount of arguments that boil down to "emo Dante sucks" far outweigh any other.

Nearly all other issues are nitpicks, mass exaggerations or personal preferences not being met. Take the 30fps 'issue', if 60fps really mattered to people they wouldn't be gaming on consoles last gen as 99% of games were 30fps. The idea it has an actual major effect on the game is hyperbole. Sure 60fps is better, but that pretty much should be the end of the argument.

It's a strawman argument because it never actually argues the points people are making. If someone brings up how they hate the new Dante design, you are free to debate with them about their taste in character design.

If people are having a discussion about the game design choices made, and how they have an impact on gameplay, and you interject with "Y'all are just mad because his hair isn't white," as many people have done, including in this thread, you are making a strawman argument. Beyond that, it's just trolling, and is likely to derail any legitimate discussion going on.

As for your framerate points, are you actually suggesting that framerate has no impact on gameplay, or just trying to parrot PC master race arguments about how console owners are rubes? Either way it's a very naive argument to make.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I know DmC has that, what makes you think I was implying it didn't? I should have highlighted the sentence before what I bolded too because I actually was trying to touch upon that. That the snap back happens more often than not in practical gameplay scenarios in games that have them because the player wants the take advantage of it. Having fluff is good in animation to add to the aesthetic but there is a point that too much makes a hindrance if there is nothing to be done about it like cancelling.

But that's the thing is that just by moving or jumping you can prevent the stumble and trigger a snap back manually. So I don't see how animation being refined is a negative thing in this case.

They're fine financially. They have $300 million in cash, only $80 million in debt, and a $130 million trailing twelve month cash flow.

They are just very uninteresting in their old business model anymore, which is why they have basically no console games announced.

Ok that's good. But that doesn't seem like the best finances for a triple A dev like Capcom, at least not compared to their competition. I hope they do fine and are able to survive this gen. And I'm seriously hoping that Deep Down is a great game and doesn't try to hinder players with microtransactions too much. I respect the devs at capcom I just really don't like the management.

 

[Dahbomb]

I am pretty sure if Capcom were to make a DMC5 they would not make it like DMC4 in terms of back tracking. They got way too much backlash over it. I know I go off on Capcom for making dumb ass decisions but if they have the smarts to make a DMC5 then they should have the smarts to not repeat the mistake of DMC4.

After all this company has delivered a DMC3 after the abomination that was DMC2. Not that DMC4 was any where NEAR DMC2's quality (or even DmC for that matter) but there is potential from Itsuno to push the series even further and create another excellent DMC game.

I BELIEVE.

 

[Crossing Eden]

If people are having a discussion about the game design choices made, and how they have an impact on gameplay, and you interject with "Y'all are just mad because his hair isn't white," as many people have done, including in this thread, you are making a strawman argument. Beyond that, it's just trolling, and is likely to derail any legitimate discussion going on.

I consider this to the the DmC supporter version of whenever someone says " New Dante sucks because he's edgy and emo." As in it adds nothing to the discussion. Both sides need to stop bringing those things up.

 

[GuardianE]

I am pretty sure if Capcom were to make a DMC5 they would not make it like DMC4 in terms of back tracking. They got way too much backlash over it. I know I go off on Capcom for making dumb ass decisions but if they have the smarts to make a DMC5 then they should have the smarts to not repeat the mistake of DMC4.

After all this company has delivered a DMC3 after the abomination that was DMC2. Not that DMC4 was any where NEAR DMC2's quality (or even DmC for that matter) but there is potential from Itsuno to push the series even further and create another excellent DMC game.

I BELIEVE.

I'm convinced that if they make a DMC5, it'll be spectacular. I'm a pretty cynical guy, but I want to believe that Capcom would be smart enough to greenlight it and put the right people in the driver's seat... Itsuno and Neo_G.

Spoiler

It won't happen.

 

[SixMachine]

But that's the thing is that just by moving or jumping you can prevent the stumble and trigger a snap back manually. So I don't see how animation being refined is a negative thing in this case.

This is something I have discussed with people in different aspects and it applies here. Why wouldn't the faster option be the norm? It creates an execution requirement that a new player might not know how to use properly.

My Lost Planet example, to use the hook properly for movement, you either have to shoot it at an angle or you cancel it before you hit the wall. This can be harder than it seems because the timing varies and a new player can mess this up easily. Why would you need an executional requirement on a ease of use thing?

Might get a little off topic but I always found some weird execution requirements in some fighting games to be unnecessary. Like if I need to super jump cancel a move to go into my ultra (which is grounded) why not just have it cancellable in the first place instead of a seemingly arbitrary requirement. You basically get nothing if you mess up because you either get it or your don't. It just creates a higher margin of error (and error exists in all levels of play, even pros mess up). If the move didn't need a super jump cancel for example, it changes nothing except you can execute your damage easier, you still play the neutral game and your gameplan to get to the point the same as you did before.

 

[BadWolf]

I'm convinced that if they make a DMC5, it'll be spectacular. I'm a pretty cynical guy, but I want to believe that Capcom would be smart enough to greenlight it and put the right people in the driver's seat... Itsuno and Neo_G.

Spoiler

It won't happen.

It will I think, there would be no reason to name the series as one of their main pillars along with Resident Evil etc. otherwise.

 

[Nirolak]

Ok that's good. But that doesn't seem like the best finances for a triple A dev like Capcom, at least not compared to their competition. I hope they do fine and are able to survive this gen. And I'm seriously hoping that Deep Down is a great game and doesn't try to hinder players with microtransactions too much. I respect the devs at capcom I just really don't like the management.

I agree that this is not a good balance sheet to go competing with the big four (Activision, EA, Ubisoft, and Take-Two), but I feel with the generally low cost projects (relative to other games) they're humoring now (like porting SF to PS4/XB1 or even making another one) they're more than stable enough to invest in things like that.

They also had the potential to have a much better balance sheet when they were in the middle of last generation but they failed to capitalize on their early success in both the console and emerging mobile front.

 

[Dahbomb]

I feel like even though a DMC5 would get me super hyped... it would also make me super anxious.

How do you top DMC4's combat? I have some theoretical suggestions on it but in the end what has to pull people in is an altered level design, superior enemy design (ie. more aggressive enemy AI) and superior presentation. The same level design as DMC4 wouldn't work in the new generation... it's way too basic and is really just the format games used in the PS2 era. DMC5 would probably have to go the Dark Souls route of opening up the level design with more intricate connections between areas over narrow corridors everywhere. It would be really interesting if DMC5 allowed us to take on missions as we wanted so we could take on any boss (except for the final few) in any order. Sort of like Megaman style, some weapons countered various bosses so you would be able to beat Agni and Rudra first, then use that weapon to beat Cerberus. A new twist on an old school design.

Also if they put platforming back in I hope they put in legitimate platforming. I want wall running in a DMC game god damn it... and proper wall running not the one in DMC3 where it was basically automated by pressing O near a wall (and it was hit and miss). There are definitely some things they can take from DmC.. it did add some good stuff to the series.

And of course the big question mark which is the story. I don't want a super try hard story/plot but I also don't want DMC4's story of Dante trolling through the game again.

 

[Crossing Eden]

This is something I have discussed with people in different aspects and it applies here. Why wouldn't the faster option be the norm? It creates an execution requirement that a new player might not know how to use properly

Why can't the normal option be the norm. As it doesn't detract anything from the game itself. It adds a little bit more depth while also adding to the attention to detail of the game itself and also makes the two characters feel even more distinct despite them sharing the same face....and very....very...similar bodies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w0AocefAiA

 

[leadbelly]

OP. why are you stirring the hornet's nest? you already know the answer!

What is the answer?

Based on the answers so far in this thread, it's not clear...

 

[SixMachine]

Why can't the normal option be the norm. As it doesn't detract anything from the game itself. And it adds a little bit more depth while also adding to the attention to detail of the game itself and also makes the two characters feel even more distinct despite them sharing the same face....and very....very...similar bodies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-w0AocefAiA

I don't know what you mean by your first sentence but you are misusing the word depth here. There is no depth in whether or not you want to cancel your landing animation, since it is always beneficial to do it. All it does is create an execution requirement. David Sirlin (he wrote many articles on aspects of game design, especially fighting games) touched upon this, in that if some needless execution requirements were removed, a new player can ease into it. That way they can focus less on execution and get to the heart of the gameplay. Also re-read my Lost Planet and fighting game example, because I don't think you understand what I mean. I'm not trying to be condescending to you if it is coming off that way.

 

[a.wd]

No, they should tackle their own ip, they did a good action game but a poor DMC game,

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't know what you mean by your first sentence but you are misusing the word depth here. There is no depth in whether or not you want to cancel your landing animation, since it is always beneficial to do it. All it does is create an execution requirement. David Sirlin (he wrote many articles on aspects of game design, especially fighting games) touched upon this, in that if some needless execution requirements were removed, a new player can ease into it. That way they can focus less on execution and get to the heart of the gameplay. Also re-read my Lost Planet and fighting game example, because I don't think you understand what I mean. I'm not trying to be condescending to you if it is coming off that way.

The landing animation in DmC doesn't prevent you from doing other moves though. It just won't snap the character back into place if there is no other input being used atm. And on top of that, if you hit an enemy with moves like Vergil's downward kick, he kicks off the enemy automatically so that you can use another move and don't get hindered. They obviously thought about these things in advance. Once again, it's just animations that play out to add to the attention of the game and don't hinder gameplay unless it's a move with a slight cooldown period, which every DMC game has unless you cancel the game constantly like with the tempest move in DMC3.

 

[fvng]

I really hope so, I finished my playthrough when it went free on PS Plus and I'm angry I was misled by the angry pitchfork mob. Loved it loved it

 

[Skilletor]

What is the answer?

Based on the answers so far in this thread, it's not clear...

It sold worse than any entry in the franchise. Answer for the fanbase can't be any more clear.

 

[GuardianE]

I feel like even though a DMC5 would get me super hyped... it would also make me super anxious.

How do you top DMC4's combat? I have some theoretical suggestions on it but in the end what has to pull people in is an altered level design, superior enemy design (ie. more aggressive enemy AI) and superior presentation. The same level design as DMC4 wouldn't work in the new generation... it's way too basic and is really just the format games used in the PS2 era. DMC5 would probably have to go the Dark Souls route of opening up the level design with more intricate connections between areas over narrow corridors everywhere. It would be really interesting if DMC5 allowed us to take on missions as we wanted so we could take on any boss (except for the final few) in any order. Sort of like Megaman style, some weapons countered various bosses so you would be able to beat Agni and Rudra first, then use that weapon to beat Cerberus. A new twist on an old school design.

Also if they put platforming back in I hope they put in legitimate platforming. I want wall running in a DMC game god damn it... and proper wall running not the one in DMC3 where it was basically automated by pressing O near a wall (and it was hit and miss). There are definitely some things they can take from DmC.. it did add some good stuff to the series.

And of course the big question mark which is the story. I don't want a super try hard story/plot but I also don't want DMC4's story of Dante trolling through the game again.

Mission based structure would be great. A MegaMan hub could work in functionality (more Demon's Souls-esque), bringing back elemental based weapons and enemy/boss elemental weaknesses. But something Metroidvania, where Dante could explore and choose to tackle a tower/castle/dimension in a different order would be ace.

Honestly, I'm just not a huge fan of platforming unless it's fully integrated into the combat in a viable way, a la Shinobi... but I don't think something like that would necessarily work for DMC. There are other ways to break up the action, or provide enough variety to the combat where things don't become repetitive.

DmC provided some things to borrow for sure. A training mode and a test drive for moves is a great improvement from the shop. Context sensitive music in the vein of MGR (I know DmC allegedly had it, but I didn't particularly notice). Dynamic use of color for different dimensions or environments. There were some UI improvements (though I abhor the DmC HUD).

I seriously don't think we need another rehash of a story about the Sparda family. I think you can introduce a new character that seeks help from Dante. The beauty of having a mercenary Devil Hunter is that you can do literally anything and put him in any scenario. I guess it would be similar to DMC2, but not shitty and not with shitty characters.

 

[abadguy]

It sold worse than any entry in the franchise. Answer for the fanbase can't be any more clear.

Hopefully Capcom got the message.

 

[Dahbomb]

I think platforming is more suited for DMC than puzzle solving is. He already has many tools for platforming... he has a wall run, air dash, teleport, double jump, a grappling hook, he can fly/glide and slow time if need be.

 

[fvng]

Hopefully Capcom got the message.

What's the message?

It sold worse than any entry in the franchise. Answer for the fanbase can't be any more clear.

I honestly feel like the fan whining/crying hurt the game's sales because that sort of negative reaction can be infectious and gives the game a bad stigma ruining its chances.

"I better avoid that game, I saw people whining online about it"

The game deserved better numbers based on the quality of the overall experience.

 

[Crossing Eden]

What's the message?

That apparently high sales equates to quality. And that we should ignore the fact that hack and slash games haven't been selling as well all gen regardless of quality., even games like GoW:A. Ծ_Ծ

 

[Host Samurai]

What about a Capcom developed DmC2?

 

[dorkkaos]

I would be okay with something like an open world DMC5 (or not really open world like skyrim but more like...witcher 2 maybe? separated by zones). Dante actually accepting different missions to take out demons (and be a demon hunter). There could be an overarching story, different city hubs.

idk, just throwing it out aha.

 

[nded]

I would be okay with something like an open world DMC5 (or not really open world like skyrim but more like...witcher 2 maybe? separated by zones). Dante actually accepting different missions to take out demons (and be a demon hunter). There could be an overarching story, different city hubs.

idk, just throwing it out aha.

You just described Dragon's Dogma.