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DNC agrees to give Sanders greater influence over party platform

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Dragmire

Member
The amount of DNC and Clinton apologists in this thread is surprising. The party has shifted to a corporatist trajectory. Corporate and special interest money should not be entrenched in politics. The DNC clearly is not going to police itself considering that it has lifted its own restrictions on lobbyist money this election.

Sanders applying that pressure to the party should have happened from someone or some people within the party, but it didn't. So in my view, that is even sadder state of affairs for them. A hive mind, to me, does not make an ideal party at all, least of all the Democratic party. It needs to evolve yesterday, and not further in the corporatist direction. Sanders influence on the platform is much needed.
 

Toxi

Banned
The amount of DNC and Clinton apologists in this thread is surprising. The party has shifted to a corporatist trajectory. Corporate and special interest money should not be entrenched in politics. The DNC clearly is not going to police itself considering that it has lifted its own restrictions on lobbyist money this election.

Sanders applying that pressure to the party should have happened from someone or some people within the party, but it didn't. So in my view, that is even sadder state of affairs for them. A hive mind, to me, does not make an ideal party at all, least of all the Democratic party. It needs to evolve yesterday, and not further in the corporatist direction. Sanders influence on the platform is much needed.
How much progressive policy has Bernie Sanders passed through Congress?
 

darkace

Banned
The amount of DNC and Clinton apologists in this thread is surprising. The party has shifted to a corporatist trajectory. Corporate and special interest money should not be entrenched in politics. The DNC clearly is not going to police itself considering that it has lifted its own restrictions on lobbyist money this election.

Sanders applying that pressure to the party should have happened from someone or some people within the party, but it didn't. So in my view, that is even sadder state of affairs for them. A hive mind, to me, does not make an ideal party at all, least of all the Democratic party. It needs to evolve yesterday, and not further in the corporatist direction. Sanders influence on the platform is much needed.

Dodd-Frank was just so corporatist. Overturning CU is just so corporatist.
 

Dragmire

Member
Dodd-Frank was just so corporatist. Overturning CU is just so corporatist.
Are you saying the party isn't receiving large amounts of money from corporations? It will be excellent if the party overturns Citizens United, but how does continuing to take corporate money, or increasing the lobbyist influence this election help the problem with money in politics?

Regarding Dodd Frank, the banks are 30% larger than when we bailed them out. FDIC just determined last month that despite Dodd Frank, the banks are at risk of crashing the economy again. They decided to allow the banks to fix it themselves by July 2017 to prevent another crash.
 

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
It is unprecedented that Bernie is having a say on the platform. It's certainly acceptable that your opinion is questioned as a result.

It shouldn't of got that far though. Hillary could of been way more gracious to the Bernie bros prior to this and acknowledged the more progressive wing of the party by promoting liberal promises on her own terms. If she had been working damage control she could of prevented this by being able to say "that she's a liberal too". Now she has to go there with a shit grin and agree to stuff because she got so caught up in electoral math she forgot that it is still people.
 

Alucrid

Banned
It shouldn't of got that far though. Hillary could of been way more gracious to the Bernie bros prior to this and acknowledged the more progressive wing of the party by promoting liberal promises on her own terms. If she had been working damage control she could of prevented this by being able to say "that she's a liberal too". Now she has to go there with a shit grin and agree to stuff because she got so caught up in electoral math she forgot that it is still people.

but she is a liberal. why exactly does she have to say it? so that people who don't think she is still won't think she is?
 
It shouldn't of got that far though. Hillary could of been way more gracious to the Bernie bros prior to this and acknowledged the more progressive wing of the party by promoting liberal promises on her own terms. If she had been working damage control she could of prevented this by being able to say "that she's a liberal too". Now she has to go there with a shit grin and agree to stuff because she got so caught up in electoral math she forgot that it is still people.

I really wonder what your fantasy world is like where Clinton is somehow a right wing candidate
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
It shouldn't of got that far though. Hillary could of been way more gracious to the Bernie bros prior to this and acknowledged the more progressive wing of the party by promoting liberal promises on her own terms. If she had been working damage control she could of prevented this by being able to say "that she's a liberal too". Now she has to go there with a shit grin and agree to stuff because she got so caught up in electoral math she forgot that it is still people.

Liberal promises like...a $12 minimum wage, or a push for a public healthcare option, both of which she's been on board with for ages?

What was she supposed to do other than echo his goals, which she can't, because they're not realistic for one president to promise
 

Laieon

Member
GAF is surprisingly rather angry towards Sanders. Considering the type of crowds he usually drew and how I imagine it overlapped to my imagination of what GAF crowds are like, it's somewhat surprising to see.

Yeah, it's weird. I swear the majority of GAF was all about him a few months ago.
 

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air

Azzanadra

Member
I think the issue is that many Sanders supporters are just DINOs in reality. In hope for a true left-wing party, they turn to the most progressive option available which sadly still not liberal enough for them. But after all, the two parties in the US are "big tent" parties. There is a wide spectrum to encompass many ideologies. This is why I don't think Clinton supporters should call Bernie supporters to fall in line- there are too many fundamental differences. So while it should be encouraged that Sanders supporters vote Clinton (as they will most likely), they shouldn't be obligated. A vote is, after all, an endorsement and endorsing Clinton is a moral red line for many as his election has shown. That said, I don't think Clinton fans need worry- there is no chance I see Trump being president and I do see the overwhelming about of Sanders supporters voting Clinton.
 

danm999

Member
It shouldn't of got that far though. Hillary could of been way more gracious to the Bernie bros prior to this and acknowledged the more progressive wing of the party by promoting liberal promises on her own terms. If she had been working damage control she could of prevented this by being able to say "that she's a liberal too". Now she has to go there with a shit grin and agree to stuff because she got so caught up in electoral math she forgot that it is still people.

She wants to increase minimum wage, achieve UHC, help control tuition costs, create a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, repeal Citizens United, achieve equal pay for women, implement universal background checks for guns, where is the lack of progressive goals and policies?
 

Kin5290

Member

Not only that but I'd argue it was Clinton and not Sanders who effectively used grassroots tactics.

While Sanders was holding and bragging about giant rallies on giant stages separated from the people, Clinton was going into communities meeting with community leaders, talking directly with people on a more intimate basis.

While Sanders was off on his campaign funded family trip to the Vatican, Clinton was in Harlem playing dominoes with folks and talking to them directly.
Well, jesus, now I wish I'd gone over that post once more for editing before it got immortalized in a quote.

And yeah, everything I've seen about the Sanders campaign is that, firey rhetoric aside, Sanders and his campaign actually seems a little aloof from normal people and their concerns, especially normal people who happen to be some kind of minority. Sanders is good at the bully pulpit but sucks at the personal touch (and not to mention is ground game in many states was less than great).
 

Jonm1010

Banned
GAF is surprisingly rather angry towards Sanders. Considering the type of crowds he usually drew and how I imagine it overlapped to my imagination of what GAF crowds are like, it's somewhat surprising to see.

Run the clock back to GAF circa 2007 and Hillary is Bernie and Obama is Hillary.

As an old timer its kinda amusing to watch the shift in support and see the similarities. The vilification for Hillary grew pretty strong before she pulled out and she had few defenders by April/May in 2008(phoenix dark basically carried that torch alone and with little back up lol). Not completely dissimilar attacks either. Not all that dissimilar tactics on Hillary's end either.

Now, 8 years later, the roles have shifted, Bernie is the new Hillary around here and Clinton is the new Obama.
Oh god, he's got people saying DINO now? Jesus fucking Christ, the Dems really are going the way of the GOP

Yeeep.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Yeah, it's weird. I swear the majority of GAF was all about him a few months ago.

Sanders is actually the more popular candidate here, the majority of his supporters here just tend not to post much in these kinds of threads or PoliGAF. There was a poll a while back and Sanders won the NeoGAF vote.
 
She wants to increase minimum wage, achieve UHC, help control tuition costs, create a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, repeal Citizens United, achieve equal pay for women, implement universal background checks for guns, where is the lack of progressive goals and policies?
She's practically Ted Cruz ovah hea
 

darkace

Banned
Are you saying the party isn't receiving large amounts of money from corporations? It will be excellent if the party overturns Citizens United, but how does continuing to take corporate money, or increasing the lobbyist influence this election help the problem with money in politics?

There's a difference between reducing overt influence and disallowing corporations to have any influence at all.

Corporations and corporate higher ups are very important to modern America. Totally removing their ability to influence the political process isn't the best path forward.

There's a reason they're given a table at negotiations around the TPP for instance (among other groups), it's because they have a stake in the US as well. One that benefits everyone.
 
I think the issue is that many Sanders supporters are just DINOs in reality. In hope for a true left-wing party, they turn to the most progressive option available which sadly still not liberal enough for them. But after all, the two parties in the US are "big tent" parties. There is a wide spectrum to encompass many ideologies. This is why I don't think Clinton supporters should call Bernie supporters to fall in line- there are too many fundamental differences. So while it should be encourages that Sanders supporters vote Clinton (as they will most likely), they shouldn't be obligated. A vote is, after all, an endorsement and endorsing Clinton is a moral red line for many as his election has shown. That said, I don't think Clinton fans need worry- there is no chance I see Trump being president.

In any state that it isn't 100% a safe democratic state they should 100% be obligated, a Trump victory is disastrous and will guarantee that the issues they care about will be next to impossible to enact because of a stacked Conservative Supreme Court. It's a two party system and that can't change with protest voting, only via a constitutional amendment that will never happen.
 

Kin5290

Member
Amazing that he has all those crowds, but it's not translating into votes.

Welp.
Didn't Howard Dean give an interview about how he found that a significant portion of his rally attendees were basically campaign groupies who followed along from event to event?
 
I think the issue is that many Sanders supporters are just DINOs in reality. In hope for a true left-wing party, they turn to the most progressive option available which sadly still not liberal enough for them. But after all, the two parties in the US are "big tent" parties. There is a wide spectrum to encompass many ideologies. This is why I don't think Clinton supporters should call Bernie supporters to fall in line- there are too many fundamental differences. So while it should be encourages that Sanders supporters vote Clinton (as they will most likely), they shouldn't be obligated. A vote is, after all, an endorsement and endorsing Clinton is a moral red line for many as his election has shown. That said, I don't think Clinton fans need worry- there is no chance I see Trump being president and I do see the overwhelming about of Sanders supporters voting Clinton.

Oh god, he's got people saying DINO now? Jesus fucking Christ, the Dems really are going the way of the GOP
 

Toxi

Banned
It shouldn't of got that far though. Hillary could of been way more gracious to the Bernie bros prior to this and acknowledged the more progressive wing of the party by promoting liberal promises on her own terms. If she had been working damage control she could of prevented this by being able to say "that she's a liberal too". Now she has to go there with a shit grin and agree to stuff because she got so caught up in electoral math she forgot that it is still people.
Wait, do Bernie fans seriously believe this bullshit? Clinton is dominating him in the popular vote.

I'm not sure what part of my post you're responding to. A little help?
You're talking about how the Democratic Party needs to evolve and a guy who achieved jackshit in Congress since 1991 is the one who will make them do it.

How?
 

Cipherr

Member
If it's a surefire inevitable loss, what difference does it make? Really?

That's the confusing thing to me. Trump is supposed to be this surefire loser, and yet we have people are seriously PO'ed that the underdog dem candidate doesn't just quit. Why? To make Trump's surefire inevitable loss even bigger? Doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

You have guys like Mark Cuban who's saying that he'd be Hilary's VP if it wasn't for Sander's dragging her too far to the left. This doesn't strike me as a bad thing, you know, being that she's a sure deal for the white house and all.

Bernie hasn't dragged anyone anywhere. I really wish that would go away. This fake notion of him achieving some big win by dragging Hillary WAAAAAAY to the left on issues when its more like a single issue and less of a drag and more of a lean.

Dragmire said:
The amount of DNC and Clinton apologists in this thread is surprising. The party has shifted to a corporatist trajectory.

Says the peanut gallery eeeeeeeeeeverytime the progressive party in this Nation starts making progress of note.

National health insurance, Halted and began/continues reversing the recession, first global agreement to limit greenhouse-gas emissions, Dodd-Frank Act put into place, DADT repealed, Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act put into place, Fought and succeeded thus far in protecting Net Neutrality, got the promised executive order on Ethics Commitments through, legalized gay marriage and more and more that was both done, and continues to be in progress....

But fuck all that. None of it counts, and none of it matters. It's all a big joke because apparently the Democratic party is a good for nothing, bought and paid for joke of a political entity with no one but corporations in mind.


Its weird how when the democratic party was neutered and fighting like hell to regain some semblance of balance while Bush wrecked shit, you guys were nowhere. But grab the nearest microphone and belt out at the top of your lungs as SOON as progress starts to get made. Its freaking amazing how that works.

Wait, do Bernie fans seriously believe this bullshit? Clinton is dominating him in the popular vote.

That right there is the side effect of extending an olive branch to 'crazy'. The DNC doesn't have to give Bernie anything, but they did. And when you do that you justify stuff in a lot of crazy folks minds. Now all of a sudden Bernie is such a titan that he browbeat them into concessions and Hillary came groveling with hat in hand, begging for her political life, forced to give big Bernie influence. I understand the concept of being the bigger person and meeting Bernie halfway even though you don't have to, but the side effects of it are annoying as hell.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oh god, he's got people saying DINO now? Jesus fucking Christ, the Dems really are going the way of the GOP

I'm confused. Is that a bad thing? I think Democrats would be the right of something like the UK Labor party or Canadian Liberals, and so liberal Americans who see these other countries might be dissatisfied with their own progressive party, but engage in it anyways because its the lesser of two evils. Hence, a Democrat in name only.
 
God forbid some people disagree, not everyone wanted Clinton to take the throne by default.

Look at the word choice in this statement. Equating US politics to monarchy. The president as being the anointed one. You know who used similar rhetoric? Republicans when Obama became president.
 
I'm confused. Is that a bad thing? I think Democrats would be the right of something like the UK Labor party or Canadian Liberals, and so liberal Americans who see these other countries might be dissatisfied with their own progressive party, but engage in it anyways because its the lesser of two evils. Hence, a Democrat in name only.

People keep making this comparison but it bloody goes the other way too, Canada doesn't have to fight off a Conservative Party that actively wants women to have to use coathangers again and oppress LGBT and minorities back to the 1950s, not as openly that is.


The GOP is arguably one of if not the most right wing party in the western world that actually stands a chance at significant victory.

It's much harder and takes much longer to win rights then it is to take them away and that's what the GOP has the power to do.
 

Alucrid

Banned
Yes because as far as most people are concerned she is a neo-liberal.



Neo-liberals are to the rights of traditional liberals....... Here Wikipedia will prove its a real thing go figure

how in any sense are these neoliberal policies

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/college/
Hillary will:
Ensure no student has to borrow to pay for tuition, books, or fees to attend a four-year public college in their state.
Enable Americans with existing student loan debt to refinance at current rates.
Hold colleges and universities accountable for controlling costs and making tuition affordable.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/plan-raise-american-incomes/
Hillary will:
Give working families a raise, and tax relief that helps them manage rising costs.
Create good-paying jobs and get pay rising by investing in infrastructure, clean energy, and scientific and medical research to strengthen our economy and growth.
Close corporate tax loopholes and make the most fortunate pay their fair share.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/wall-street/
Hillary will:
Veto Republican efforts to repeal or weaken Dodd-Frank.
Tackle dangerous risks in the big banks and elsewhere in the financial system.
Hold both individuals and corporations accountable when they break the law.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/social-security-and-medicare/
Hillary will:
Fight any effort to privatize or weaken Medicare and Social Security, and expand Social Security for today’s beneficiaries and generations to come by asking the wealthiest to contribute more.
Reform our health care system to incentivize and reward quality care.
Demand lower prices for prescription drugs for seniors receiving Medicare.
Expand Social Security benefits for widows and those who took time out of the paid workforce to care for a child or sick family member.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/manufacturing/
Manufacturing is critical to the U.S. economy.
Strengthen America's investment in manufacturing
Create tax incentives to encourage investment in the hardest-hit manufacturing communities
Crack down on trade violations to level the global playing field for American workers

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/labor/
Hillary will:
Strengthen unions and protect worker bargaining power.
Raise the minimum wage and strengthen overtime rules.
Support working families through equal pay, paid family leave, earned sick days, fair schedules, and quality affordable child care.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/infrastructure/
Hillary will:
Boost federal investment by $275 billion over the next five years.
Create a $25 billion infrastructure bank to support critical infrastructure improvements.
Harness public and private capital to fix and build new roads and bridges, expand public transportation, give every American access to broadband internet, and more.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/health-care/
Hillary will:
Defend the Affordable Care Act and build on it to slow the growth of out-of-pocket costs.
Crack down on rising prescription drug prices and hold drug companies accountable so they get ahead by investing in research, not jacking up costs.
Protect women’s access to reproductive health care, including contraception and safe, legal abortion.
 

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
She wants to increase minimum wage, achieve UHC, help control tuition costs, create a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants, repeal Citizens United, achieve equal pay for women, implement universal background checks for guns, where is the lack of progressive goals and policies?

Yet her history is mostly that of a center left neo-liberal. She should of picked a few liberal issues and then made them her issues by going further left than Bernie or at least meeting him there and going one step further.

To put this in the grand perspective there is a saying that when it comes to conservatives there is always a race to the right to prove who is the most conservative and thus the best republican. It had been an undercurrent in the republican party since goldwater but it became a legit policy concern after Reagan. Arguably because the party faithful was emboldened by how (at the time) he was considered a very successful president by being a conservative and by enacting conservative dogma. A large (and growing) part of the repub party no longer saw validity in the center. Because Reagan "went full to the right and look he beat the soviets, etc, etc". They demanded it and as time went on we got the cuckoos we have now. because the party bosses didn't filter through the mess and just took it all in.

The reason you didn't see this prior with the democrats was due to Carter's one term presidency and how ineffective he was delivering on his liberal promises. For a long time (including Bills presidency) the concept of middle ground "neo-liberal" democrat politicians were considered the only serious type of democratic politician on the national stage. However, after the Obama administration you're seeing the same thing with dems. That same Disillusionment with the center that repubs experienced happening now with the more liberal side of the democratic party.

The "bernie bros" are saying "Hey look Obama did things like create Obamacare, and allowed for Gay Marriage and those liberal things turned out pretty great" We want more! They want a president who will move to the left. Hillary hasn't got into that race to the left yet (historically speaking she tends to play the center), but Bernie did and is doing better than expected from it. There is now a growing group of people on the democratic side who are saying we want these liberal things that everyone said would be impossible like Obamacare and Gay Marriage. She needs to deal with that group by positioning herself to the left of Bernie on some isses. This Party platform is going to force her to take on some issues when she could of likely chose her issues to fight on prior. She could of filtered some of the mess if she had dealt with it sooner but who knows what Bernie is going to throw up there to see if it sticks.
 

Dragmire

Member
There's a difference between reducing overt influence and disallowing corporations to have any influence at all.

Corporations and corporate higher ups are very important to modern America. Totally removing their ability to influence the political process isn't the best path forward.

There's a reason they're given a table at negotiations around the TPP for instance (among other groups), it's because they have a stake in the US as well. One that benefits everyone.
Which corporations are you referring to? Should we discuss one of the bigger ones like Walmart? They have contributed to wealth inequality and poverty by paying their workers low wages with no benefits, or inadequate benefits. Are there large corporations that are in danger and need corporate welfare or tax breaks from the government? Despite the ruling in Buckley v. Valeo, I believe we should not treat corporations like people.

You're talking about how the Democratic Party needs to evolve and a guy who achieved jackshit in Congress since 1991 is the one who will make them do it.

How?
I have seen people go back and forth about his record and you are welcome to your version of history. But I am not sure why you began discussing that with me when I made no mention of it. Was it ad hominem about Bernie? To me, an unrelated attack on character only shows a lack of argument about the relevant points that I made.
 

ApharmdX

Banned
That's a good thing, definitely. Hopefully this sees our party unite and focus on embarrassing Donald Trump in November.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Yet her history is mostly that of a center left neo-liberal. She should of picked a few liberal issues and then made them her issues by going further left than Bernie or at least meeting him there and going one step further.

To put this in the grand perspective there is a saying that when it comes to conservatives there is always a race to the right to prove who is the most conservative and thus the best republican. It had been an undercurrent in the republican party since goldwater but it became a legit policy concern after Reagan. Arguably because the party faithful was emboldened by how (at the time) he was considered a very successful president by being a conservative and by enacting conservative dogma. A large (and growing) part of the repub party no longer saw validity in the center. Because Reagan "went full to the right and look he beat the soviets, etc, etc". They demanded it and as time went on we got the cuckoos we have now. because the party bosses didn't filter through the mess and just took it all in.

The reason you didn't see this prior with the democrats was due to Carter's one term presidency and how ineffective he was delivering on his liberal promises. For a long time (including Bills presidency) the concept of middle ground "neo-liberal" democrat politicians were considered the only serious type of democratic politician on the national stage. However, after the Obama administration you're seeing the same thing with dems. That same Disillusionment with the center that repubs experienced happening now with the more liberal side of the democratic party.

The "bernie bros" are saying "Hey look Obama did things like create Obamacare, and allowed for Gay Marriage and those liberal things turned out pretty great" We want more! They want a president who will move to the left. Hillary hasn't got into that race to the left yet (historically speaking she tends to play the center), but Bernie did and is doing better than expected from it. There is now a growing group of people on the democratic side who are saying we want these liberal things that everyone said would be impossible like Obamacare and Gay Marriage. She needs to deal with that group by positioning herself to the left of Bernie on some isses. This Party platform is going to force her to take on some issues when she could of likely chose her issues to fight on prior. She could of filtered some of the mess if she had dealt with it sooner but who knows what Bernie is going to throw up there to see if it sticks.

She can't go "further left" than Bernie on anything, because Bernie's major positions are based on sand and platitudes. She can't promise "more than free college for everyone", "more than free healthcare for everyone", "more than breaking all the big banks up into tiny pieces", and she can't even promise as much as them because even Sanders can't. Not really. Not in any credible way.
 
I'm sorry, did Obama not win in 2008?

What is up with with his "grassroots campaign" nonsense. Sanders can't even gather a fraction of the old Obama coalition, and his strength lies in liberal college students (who are overwhelming white) and disaffected working class whites. Some grassroots movement. A first term Senator did better than he did.

I feel you're downplaying Sanders campaign here. The legitimacy of his grassroots campaigns come from the fact that it is has gotten here without SuperPACs. If you go back to the old threads from a year ago about Sanders, it was mostly about people laughing at him. It's impossible to win without raising hundreds of millions through corporate institutions.
My point was that nobody has independently through small donations raised as much money and gotten so far.
If Sanders had taken goldman sachs money and the like, he wouldn't have been authentic. He would have died at the cross at the same the other democratic candidates. They say their little thing at one or two of the debates, and then it's over.
Everybody know who Hillary Clinton is, and in politics that is the entire name of the game.
Nobody knew who Bernie was. He wasn't a household name, he wasn't liked among the dems. Between 4 and 08 the democratic base did a lot to rally behind Obama, and it was indeed a historic campaign, for different reasons. Particularly now that it is a post-citizen united world.
If you look at how far other campaigns have gotten with no corporate pacs, you'd see nobody has even gotten close to Bernies. It's the largest of its kind and has mobilized a lot of people into contributing.



The numbers thus far reflect an insidious campaign-spending trend that began long before the Supreme Court's 2010 Citizens United decision allowed individuals, corporations and unions to give unlimited amounts of cash to super PACs. Every election since 1998 has outspent the previous corresponding one: The 2012 presidential race cost more than $2.6 billion, the 2008 presidential race cost more than $1 billion, the 2004 presidential race cost more than $717.9 million and so on.

This surging tide of reported contributions - plus the hidden current of undisclosed dark money flooding in beneath the surface from a few billionaires - is so thoroughly dominating the electoral process, it has effectively created an undertow that is drowning out the value of the non-affluent vote, argues campaign finance activist John Bonifaz.

Bonifaz is cofounder and president of Free Speech For People, a group advocating for campaign finance reforms and a 28th Amendment to the US Constitution that would not only overturn the Citizens United ruling, but establish that corporations are not people under the law. Bonifaz and Jamin Raskin first articulated the idea of the "wealth primary" in the Yale Law & Policy Review in 1993, writing:

The "wealth primary" ... sets up an economic gauntlet that, in every practical sense, prevents less affluent candidates - potential office seekers lacking both personal wealth and affluent backers - from competing for office. This system sharply reduces voter choice and falls with unequal weight on voters, as well as candidates, according to their economic status ... This effect denies huge numbers of people meaningful electoral choice and unlawfully degrades their influence on the political process as a whole.
( http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/...chine-is-defying-the-2016-billionaire-primary )

It's pretty clear that elections have gotten increasingly less democratic, making what Sanders has done even more amazing.
I think that it is inspiring what he has done, because money corrupts the political process. I've said this before, but we've seen in other countries a similar thing. It's the rich and wealth who can just insert themselves into the political life because they have millions and people know who they are.
The campaign finance system, should in effect work more like this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaekogALkFM&feature=youtu.be&list=PLJ8cMiYb3G5ffS2uCSKeH_b9fIqZWxBDR < a 100 dollar tax credit for every us citizen.







Not only that but I'd argue it was Clinton and not Sanders who effectively used grassroots tactics.

While Sanders was holding and bragging about giant rallies on giant stages separated from the people, Clinton was going into communities meeting with community leaders, talking directly with people on a more intimate basis.

While Sanders was off on his campaign funded family trip to the Vatican, Clinton was in Harlem playing dominoes with folks and talking to them directly.

You're being unreasonable here. Sanders is not well known at all. Nobody knew who he was. He had to fill up conventions and speak his message. Everybody knows who Hillary Clinton is which allowed her platform to being run differently.
I don't think doing speeches around the country is being removed from the people. The fact that he did manage to fill up so many rallies speaks to that he did connect to a certain energy with some people.
 

Alucrid

Banned
She can't go "further left" than Bernie on anything, because Bernie's major positions are based on sand and platitudes. She can't promise "more than free college for everyone", "more than free healthcare for everyone", "more than breaking all the big banks up into tiny pieces", and she can't even promise as much as them because even Sanders can't. Not really. Not in any credible way.

there is one thing, half life 3
 

Dragmire

Member
Says the peanut gallery eeeeeeeeeeverytime the progressive party in this Nation starts making progress of note.

National health insurance, Halted and began/continues reversing the recession, first global agreement to limit greenhouse-gas emissions, Dodd-Frank Act put into place, DADT repealed, Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act put into place, Fought and succeeded thus far in protecting Net Neutrality, got the promised executive order on Ethics Commitments through, legalized gay marriage and more and more that was both done, and continues to be in progress....

But fuck all that. None of it counts, and none of it matters. It's all a big joke because apparently the Democratic party is a good for nothing, bought and paid for joke of a political entity with no one but corporations in mind.
I am not sure who you have talked to in the past that you are referring to as the peanut gallery, or why you quoted me, because the rest of your post was a conflation of my words that I never said. It is also logically fallacious. How does the allegation of corporatism in the Democratic party mean that they would not pass gay marriage?
 

danm999

Member
Yet her history is mostly that of a center left neo-liberal. She should of picked a few liberal issues and then made them her issues by going further left than Bernie or at least meeting him there.

Her history for decades has been pretty fucking rock solid on UHC, equal pay for women and repealing Citizen's United. As for guns she's already arguably to the left of Sanders. As for immigration reform they both have the same policy so I'm a little confused as to what the hell going further left looks like.

But let's gloss past that; so you're suggesting she promote progressive promises "on her own terms", but also flank Bernie from the left and/or copy his policies?

That's not a strategy, that's a contradiction. And she'd be doing it to appease people who would at the drop of the hat call her a panderer and a liar, and find herself in a position so far out of the mainstream she'd struggle to implement her policies and inevitably be a disappointment.

To put this in the grand perspective there is a saying that when it comes to conservatives there is always a race to the right to prove who is the most conservative and thus the best republican. It had been an undercurrent in the republican party since goldwater but it became a legit policy concern after Reagan. Arguably because the party faithful was emboldened by how (at the time) he was considered a very successful president by being a conservative and by enacting conservative dogma. A large (and growing) part of the repub party no longer saw validity in the center. Because Reagan "went full to the right and look he beat the soviets, etc, etc". They demanded it and as time went on we got the cuckoos we have now. because the party bosses didn't filter through the mess and just took it all in.

It's concerning to me you're advocating a left wing mirror strategy you admit basically destroyed the cohesion of a party and allowed it to be overtaken by radicals.

The "bernie bros" are saying "Hey look Obama did things like create Obamacare, and allowed for Gay Marriage and those liberal things turned out pretty great" We want more! They want a president who will move to the left. Hillary hasn't got into that race to the left yet (historically speaking she tends to play the center), but Bernie did and is doing better than expected from it. There is now a growing group of people on the democratic side who are saying we want these liberal things that everyone said would be impossible like Obamacare and Gay Marriage. She needs to deal with that group by positioning herself to the left of Bernie on some isses. This Party platform is going to force her to take on some issues when she could of likely chose her issues to fight on prior. She could of filtered some of the mess if she had dealt with it sooner but who knows what Bernie is going to throw up there to see if it sticks.

Again, you think the things Hillary is advocating (again, raising the minimum wage, immigration reform, equal pay for women, universal background checks for guns, repealing Citizens' United) are "playing to the center" in US politics?

A substantial portion of Bernie's supporters also believe Obamacare did not go far enough and isn't really a progressive plan (and they might not be totally wrong given it came from the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank), which demonstrates how great can be the enemy of good, and how compromise and moving incrementally towards progressive goals through not necessarily the most progressive possible solution is sometimes necessary.
 

darkace

Banned
Which corporations are you referring to? Should we discuss one of the bigger ones like Walmart? They have contributed to wealth inequality and poverty by paying their workers low wages with no benefits, or inadequate benefits. Are there large corporations that are in danger and need corporate welfare or tax breaks from the government? Despite the ruling in Buckley v. Valeo, I believe we should not treat corporations like people.

It's not about treating corporations like people, it's about realising they have a part to play in modern America just like every other part. Soaking them doesn't help anybody.

Wal-Mart has been a massive boon for the lower classes by increasing purchasing power across the board. They offer the lowest prices for goods, allowing people to buy goods on incomes that would have been unthinkable decades ago. Not to mention they employ millions, most of whom earn above minimum wage.

Wal-Mart is one of the largest anti-poverty tools currently in the US.

Governing is about using all bits of America to benefit the largest amount possible. That's what Hillary is about.

You can help labour at the expense of capital, but that hurts everybody in the long run. You can help capital at the expanse of labour, but that hurts everybody in the long run. You can also help both, which is what the vast majority of what Hillary's policies do.
 

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Her history for decades has been pretty fucking rock solid on UHC, equal pay for women and repealing Citizen's United. As for guns she's already arguably to the left of Sanders. As for immigration reform they both have the same policy so I'm a little confused as to what the hell going further left looks like.

But let's gloss past that; so you're suggesting she promote progressive promises "on her own terms", but also flank Bernie from the left and/or copy his policies?

That's not a strategy, that's a contradiction.



It's concerning to me you're advocating a left wing mirror strategy you admit basically destroyed the cohesion of a party and allowed it to be overtaken by radicals.



Again, you think the things Hillary is advocating (again, raising the minimum wage, immigration reform, equal pay for women, universal background checks for guns, repealing Citizens' United) are "playing to the center" in US politics?

I'm not advocating a left mirror strategy, I'm telling you the left is mirroring the right and right now the dems are reacting the same exact ways the repubs did in the beginning they are ignoring it and trying to play the center.

My argument is that repub politicians didn't filter. They ignored it until the guy who was more to the right got in, but at least they had an excuse it hadn't happened before for them to see the writing on the wall.

My argument is that she could of chose some issues to go clearly further on the left than Bernie and stay where she is on other issues and have likely won more states "Like idk GUNS, and immigration". Now she has to deal with this nonsense and who knows if Bernie doesn't poison pill her with something. Also its not about meeting bernie or even going a lot futher to the left. its about going just a little further. It would split some of his supporter block and give her some soundbites to cause a the of bernie bros to pause in their support of him. She however took the position "they'll vote for me eventually" and continued to lose states.
 

Azzanadra

Member
People keep making this comparison but it bloody goes the other way too, Canada doesn't have to fight off a Conservative Party that actively wants women to have to use coathangers again and oppress LGBT and minorities back to the 1950s, not as openly that is.


The GOP is arguably one of if not the most right wing party in the western world that actually stands a chance at significant victory.

It's much harder and takes much longer to win rights then it is to take them away and that's what the GOP has the power to do.

I definitely agree with you, you're right about the GOP. But there are significant issues to which even the Democrats are very much right wing, which is the difference between a Bernie and Clinton. I see nothing wrong with the term DINO simply because its is a very large tent.

Though on the Democrats best represented by Clinton, while they are on the left concerning social issues, I am most displeased with there attitude on economics and wealth inequality, as I imagine many are, and this is clearly a big deal to many which is clearly shown by Sanders surprising success. Another key difference would be foreign policy, and Clinton (and heck, even Obama's) foreign policy is quite close to their Republican contemporaries. While the American people would overall "win" with a Clinton presidency over Trump, it seems middle easterners lose either way.

Overall though, I think Bernie supporters should be happy with how successful he was, I certainly am. Many people laughed him off and thought he would even be behind Martin O'Malley. I think we should rejoice a socialist came so far in a country that has spent decades fighting them and projecting them as enemies.
 

danm999

Member
I'm not advocating a left mirror strategy, I'm telling you the left is mirroring the right and right now the dems are reacting the same exact ways the repubs did in the beginning they are ignoring it and trying to play the center.

My argument is that repub politicians didn't filter. They ignored it until the guy who was more to the right got in, but at least they had an excuse it hadn't happened before for them to see the writing on the wall.

My argument is that she could of chose some issues to go clearly further on the left than Bernie and stay where she is on other issues and have likely won more states "Like idk GUNS, and immigration". Now she has to deal with this nonsense and who knows if Bernie doesn't poison pill her with something. Also its not about meeting bernie or even going a lot futher to the left. its about going just a little further. It would split some of his supporter block and give her some soundbites to cause a the of bernie bros to pause in their support of him. She however took the position "they'll vote for me eventually" and continued to lose states.

What you are advocating, constantly having candidates out flank or chase each other on to the fringe, is EXACTLY what went wrong with the Republican party.

Compromise or moderation or any sense of pragmatism became a dirty word because you always had to go further right than the other guy to prove you were the real deal.

I mean what do you really think happens in 2020 or 2024 if Hillary and Bernie establish the pattern that the way to win a primary is to outflank everybody on the left consequences politically be damned? Do you think the next round of candidates ignores that message or do they try it too?
 

FiggyCal

Banned
Again, you think the things Hillary is advocating (again, raising the minimum wage, immigration reform, equal pay for women, universal background checks for guns, repealing Citizens' United) are "playing to the center" in US politics?

A substantial portion of Bernie's supporters also believe Obamacare did not go far enough and isn't really a progressive plan (and they might not be totally wrong given it came from the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank), which demonstrates how great can be the enemy of good, and how compromise and moving incrementally towards progressive goals through not necessarily the most progressive possible solution is sometimes necessary.

She probably believes in those things, but we'd be joking ourselves if we didn't think those are popular positions to hold. Except for some frothing at the mouth Rush Limbaugh listener, there aren't many people actively arguing that women should be making less than men.

You also didn't demonstrate exactly how people thinking that Obamacare didn't go far enough is an example of the great being the enemy of the good. I'm not sure what you were trying to say here.
 

danm999

Member
You also didn't demonstrate exactly how people thinking that Obamacare didn't go far enough is an example of the great being the enemy of the good. I'm not sure what you were trying to say here.

I could have expanded a bit more on this point, yes.

Basically, Obamacare was not the most progressive possible iteration of healthcare reform you could have imagined. It was, for example, not a single payer system, nor was it even tied with a public option.

It was chosen, basically, because it was palatable for blue dog Democrats, who were necessary because Republicans absolutely refused to vote for health care reform even if the plan came from their side of the aisle.

But it's the best that could have been achieved at the time. Especially with the narrow window that the super-majority in Obama's first term provided.

However since it has been derided as something of a failure or a bad compromise by certain progressives, to the extent there have been accusations Obama deliberately killed the public option as a favour to the pharmaceutical industry when he could barely get an insurance mandate passed.

This is the mirror I was talking about on the left that would essentially doom something like Obamacare to not even happening because well, it's not single payer and it's not even a public option so why bother even though it might help millions of Americans access healthcare in the short term.
 

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
What you are advocating, constantly having candidates out flank or chase each other on to the fringe, is EXACTLY what went wrong with the Republican party.

Compromise or moderation or any sense of pragmatism became a dirty word because you always had to go further right than the other guy to prove you were the real deal.

I mean what do you really think happens in 2020 or 2024 if Hillary and Bernie establish the pattern that the way to win a primary is to outflank everybody on the left consequences politically be damned? Do you think the next round of candidates ignores that message or do they try it too?

I am saying she should compromise with the voters instead of expecting them to toe the line to not let Trump win. She's the one interviewing for the job, not the voters. I am saying she should of chose Guns and Immigration (or another two to three issues) and made them her line in the sand and fought for those issues until they became her own and then used them to beat Bernie over the head with.

Also if you don't think these Bernie Bros aren't more established by 2020 and 2024 regardless of what hillary does your ignoring what I am saying. Obama is their shining city on the hill. His example is not going to go away. If anything it will become bigger. By 2020 and 2024 for all we know all the "crazy" talk bernie is saying becomes a legit possibility with some key compromises.

I mean look at Obama, He was a mostly moderate even keeled Democrat except on a few big idea issues. The same should be the goal of every democratic president. All Hillary would need to do now (because she could still do it now and take control of the dynamic) is announce her big idea issues now and take the lead on the left from Bernie. He's not the god of liberals especially on Guns. Its not asking her to betray herself or her politics, its literally asking her to take the lead.
 

Alucrid

Banned
I am saying she should compromise with the voters instead of expecting them to toe the line to not let Trump win. She's the one interviewing for the job, not the voters. I am saying she should of chose Guns and Immigration (or another two to three issues) and made them her line in the sand and fought for those issues until they became her own and then used them to beat Bernie over the head with.

Also if you don't think these Bernie Bros aren't more established by 2020 and 2024 regardless of what hillary does your ignoring what I am saying. Obama is their shining city on the hill. His example is not going to go away. If anything it will become bigger. By 2020 and 2024 for all we know all the "crazy" talk bernie is saying becomes a legit possibility with some key compromises.

I mean look at Obama, He was a mostly moderate even keeled Democrat except on a few big idea issues. The same should be the goal of every democratic president. All Hillary would need to do now (because she could still do it now and take control of the dynamic) is announce her big idea issues now and take the lead on the left from Bernie. He's not the god of liberals especially on Guns. Its not asking her to betray herself or her politics, its literally asking her to take the lead.

here is hillary's immigration proposal

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/immigration-reform/

here is bernie's immigration proposal

https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

go through them and come back to us with what she should go "more left on"

and here's hillary's gun violence page

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/gun-violence-prevention/

i couldn't find one on bernie's site

you're typing a bunch, but saying a whole lot of nothing
 

danm999

Member
I am saying she should compromise with the voters instead of expecting them to toe the line to not let Trump win. She's the one interviewing for the job, not the voters. I am saying she should of chose Guns and Immigration (or another two to three issues) and made them her line in the sand and fought for those issues until they became her own and then used them to beat Bernie over the head with.

I don't know how many debates you watched but she did exactly that with guns, equal pay and immigration, on the latter promising to have a bill before Congress in the first 100 days.

With guns in particular she hit Sanders pretty fucking hard over the head with his votes against the Brady Bill, on guns coming from Vermont into NYC and Connecticut (Sandy Hook), I'm just not sure how she could have hit harder from the left, etc/
 

Maengun1

Member
I don't have a problem with giving Sanders a reasonable say in the platform/etc., but he needs to friggin' drop out, endorse, and they need to start campaigning together. If he actually keeps going after her for another 6 weeks between California and the convention I'm going to rip my hair out.
 

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
here is hillary's immigration proposal

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/immigration-reform/

here is bernie's immigration proposal

https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

go through them and come back to us with what she should go "more left on"

and here's hillary's gun violence page

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/gun-violence-prevention/

i couldn't find one on bernie's site

you're typing a bunch, but saying a whole lot of nothing

Oh you're impressed by videos and links..... Good for you.

I'm sorry all my words were too much for you, but I was saying something.

If you read your own links it's clear Bernie is more liberal on immigration than hillary and just from page count is willing to speak on it more.

For example Bernie says he'll expand Obama's DACA and DAPA while she say's she'll just defend it. One is a more liberal concept than the other.

Also yes she is more liberal than he is on guns but she's hasn't made that her issue. She could. She could make realistic gun reform her issue and kill him with it (pun not intended) but she won't because she's always thinking about the center.
 
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